Elenita Santaballa

--- Nance Confer" <marbleface@...> wrote:
> Judging by your sister's physical ability to drag
this child against her will, I'll guess she's young.
>
> And maybe overscheduled. She has camp in the morning
and swim team after that? And company visiting. Sounds
like a lot to me.

Yup, she's 7(!), and like her mother, her life is
overscheduled. I think that my sister has fallen into
the trap of, "If I don't have my children signed up
for a million activities, I am not a good mother." My
sister and I were raised by our own parents to be
"human doings," not "human beings."

Wow, I will need to unschool myself from this for the
sake of my own DS.

More challenges for me:

My nephew is 3. He has been spending a lot of time
with me and my son (as has my niece). My
overscheduled sister loves it when I am here because
it gives her some relief from her hectic life.

My nephew has a lot of behaviors that are difficult
for me to deal with. Most of them are what I think of
as the typical "terrible two"--or in this case,
"terrible three"--behaviors: whining when he doesn't
get what he wants, temper tantrums, throwing things,
etc. He often does things that almost feel like he is
testing me: throwing all of my clean, folded laundry
onto a pile on the floor was the one that got my goat
today.

Like I said before, I am a new parent, so I am
learning about child behaviors. Maybe this is
something that children do: they test the adults
around them to get a sense of what they can expect?

In the case of my niece and nephew, their parents tend
to give them a lot of orders (do this, don't do that,
stop that, etc.) and a lot of time-outs. My devilish
little nephew gets a lot of time-outs.

So it doesn't surprise me that he tests me. He has
come to know what to expect in reaction to his "bad"
behavior from his parents. He already senses that my
reaction is going to be different.

But I don't know how to deal with him. I don't know
how to react when he throws all of my clean laundry on
the floor--or the many other "naughty" things that he
does all day long. I love this little boy. Yesterday
we had some other kids over that were close to his age
to play with some sprinklers and wading pools that I
had set up out back. He was so filled with joy and
freedom as he played.

Maybe he is just bored from being cooped up with me
and my 7 mo. old. It is too oppressively hot outside
to play out there much. And my sister has asked that I
not allow her kids to watch TV, play video games, or
use the computer, but hasn't given me much to keep
them entertained with. And my baby gets very tired if
I drag him all over town.

To be honest, what goes on for me is that I look at my
sweet but devilish little nephew and I wonder if my
own son will be devilish like him. And if he is, how
will that be for me as a parent? I want to "do"
things differently so that my own son will be
"better." All the while knowing that I can't control
him. Will I be up to the task? Will my own son push
my buttons in the way my nephew does? Will I be
constantly tempted to take the easy way out
(punishment, bribes, threats)?

I suspect the answers to these questions are "yes."
And so begins my task of learning how to parent in a
non-violent and respectful way.

Thanks for "listening" if you've made it this far.
Would appreciate your feedback and comments.

Elena



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Robert Saxon

Elena,

Being a guy, I have some suggestions for the frustrating behavior. Hope I
won't bore you with stuff you already are doing.

Suggestions:
1a. Do some re-winding and pre-planning. Imagine how you would like to
respond to that situation. Play that out in your mind several times.
1b. For the dumped laundry: Stop. Breathe. Breathe again. Do it again if
necessary. Then act out how you planned in the previous step.
2. Begin modifying your own environment to accommodate his "devilish" side,
if he's going to be over a lot.
3. If his mother is not going to allow TV/computer games/etc., then ask her
to please provide some things for him to do.
4. If possible, figure out why he's doing those devilish things.

My dd2 (4.25) is very challenging. I wouldn't call her devilish, as to me
that sounds playful and mischievous. But some of the behaviors are
simliar. She will dump all the clothes onto the floor that were just hung
not 5 minutes previous. She hits. She gets into throwing things, and as
you're trying to fix/repair/keep it from falling, she's onto something else
to knock off a table or throw across the room.

When she does this, more often than not she is in desperate need of a
connection from us. She has lost her "power" and is striking out. It has
taken great effort for us to stop, breathe, breathe again, and then attempt
to engage her as much as she's willing to let us. Sometimes it's direct
contact (hugging, stroking, telling her we love her), sometimes it's just
mentioning that she looks really angry. If she's taken something from her
sister, we do not take it back from her, and we have to reassure her that
we're NOT going to take it from her (we did enough of that already --
yuck!).

Bottom line is that we stopped "treating" her behavior and watched to see
what it was that she needed. She's scared that we will stop loving her
and/or will abandon her (wish we'd known when she was an infant what we know
now). That is her issue. And sad to say, she's afraid of that because we
DID for a while take back things from her that she took from others. We
gave her time-outs (i.e. separation). When we ran out of ideas, we yelled
at her and spanked her. Guess what? made it worse. We figured out what we
were doing wrong and and what she needed. And she has really blossomed.

Have I babbled enough?

--Rob Saxon
DH to Seana for 10 years
"Daddy!" to Seana (5.8) and Elissa (4.25)

On 7/17/07, Elenita Santaballa <esantaballa@...> wrote:
>
> --- Nance Confer" <marbleface@...> wrote:
> > Judging by your sister's physical ability to drag
> this child against her will, I'll guess she's young.
> >
> > And maybe overscheduled. She has camp in the morning
> and swim team after that? And company visiting. Sounds
> like a lot to me.
>
> Yup, she's 7(!), and like her mother, her life is
> overscheduled. I think that my sister has fallen into
> the trap of, "If I don't have my children signed up
> for a million activities, I am not a good mother." My
> sister and I were raised by our own parents to be
> "human doings," not "human beings."
>
> Wow, I will need to unschool myself from this for the
> sake of my own DS.
>
> More challenges for me:
>
> My nephew is 3. He has been spending a lot of time
> with me and my son (as has my niece). My
> overscheduled sister loves it when I am here because
> it gives her some relief from her hectic life.
>
> My nephew has a lot of behaviors that are difficult
> for me to deal with. Most of them are what I think of
> as the typical "terrible two"--or in this case,
> "terrible three"--behaviors: whining when he doesn't
> get what he wants, temper tantrums, throwing things,
> etc. He often does things that almost feel like he is
> testing me: throwing all of my clean, folded laundry
> onto a pile on the floor was the one that got my goat
> today.
>
> Like I said before, I am a new parent, so I am
> learning about child behaviors. Maybe this is
> something that children do: they test the adults
> around them to get a sense of what they can expect?
>
> In the case of my niece and nephew, their parents tend
> to give them a lot of orders (do this, don't do that,
> stop that, etc.) and a lot of time-outs. My devilish
> little nephew gets a lot of time-outs.
>
> So it doesn't surprise me that he tests me. He has
> come to know what to expect in reaction to his "bad"
> behavior from his parents. He already senses that my
> reaction is going to be different.
>
> But I don't know how to deal with him. I don't know
> how to react when he throws all of my clean laundry on
> the floor--or the many other "naughty" things that he
> does all day long. I love this little boy. Yesterday
> we had some other kids over that were close to his age
> to play with some sprinklers and wading pools that I
> had set up out back. He was so filled with joy and
> freedom as he played.
>
> Maybe he is just bored from being cooped up with me
> and my 7 mo. old. It is too oppressively hot outside
> to play out there much. And my sister has asked that I
> not allow her kids to watch TV, play video games, or
> use the computer, but hasn't given me much to keep
> them entertained with. And my baby gets very tired if
> I drag him all over town.
>
> To be honest, what goes on for me is that I look at my
> sweet but devilish little nephew and I wonder if my
> own son will be devilish like him. And if he is, how
> will that be for me as a parent? I want to "do"
> things differently so that my own son will be
> "better." All the while knowing that I can't control
> him. Will I be up to the task? Will my own son push
> my buttons in the way my nephew does? Will I be
> constantly tempted to take the easy way out
> (punishment, bribes, threats)?
>
> I suspect the answers to these questions are "yes."
> And so begins my task of learning how to parent in a
> non-violent and respectful way.
>
> Thanks for "listening" if you've made it this far.
> Would appreciate your feedback and comments.
>
> Elena
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of
> spyware protection.
> http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Janet

I'm a long time unschooler and a very (most people call it) laid back
mother. I never ever had a child who was a "terrible two" or a child
who tested my limits... I was firm and unyielding when necessary
("can I go play in the street?" or "Can I pour this hot wax on the
carpet?") and rarely said "no" to them (maybe when they were sticking
something into the electrical outlet...) But we have had very "well
behaved" (in the opinions of others) children! I never over scheduled
them, or me (we rarely scheduled anything LOL) and I have always done
the "follow them around and see what they are learning" type of
homeschooling. Our homes were always and still are, child friendly.
There is very little they can get into that I don't want them in.
(Hm, except that now the 10yo has been climbing on the counter and
playing with matches and candles and making wax sculptures...
sometimes that annoys me!)

I honestly don't think *every* child develops into a little devilish
dervish. Of course mine did things that many would consider
naughty.... I remember being on the phone helping a mom with a new
baby and my little son, about 2 I think, was gleefully running around
the living room spreading cereal, some flake, all over the room.... I
ignored him and when we got off the phone we vacuumed it up. Things
like that happen with kids! I (usually) have been able to take it all
in stride and realize they are not out to get me, they are just learning!

Was the 3yo vying for your attention? Could he help fold the laundry?
My kids loved to "help" do anything I did... was he mad about
something? I very rarely gave (or give) my kids orders... I
sometimes make suggestions, ask for help or whatever, but their days
are really their own. With the younger ones of course, I was way more
actively engaged; as they get old, they want to do it without me
helping or hanging around. My guess is that the 3yo needs someone to
play with him - you! (since mom isn't willing or able.) 3yos do need
quite a bit of hm... where's a good word... not "direction" or
"supervision" ... but loving guidance. And patience LOL, tons of that.

Things 3yos like:
-playdoh (homemade is easy if you don't have any)
-marbles and chutes (toilet paper tubes, cardboard)
-ping pong balls if marble are too small - my little ones loved ping
pong balls!
-water play - on towels on the floor - bubbles and spoons and bowls, seives...
-sand - we bring in snow in the winter, a sand table - or sand in a
baking dish - with cars and water and little people...
-card games - they make up the rules - very entertaining.....
-finger paint
-being read to
-writing a story book
-sliding down the stairs on sleeping bags
-big boxes to play in and decorate
-forts made out of blankets

Janet in MN unschooler to 6 now ages 26, 23, 20, 17, 13, 10


At 10:19 PM 7/17/2007, you wrote:

(snipped in various places)

>My nephew is 3. He has been spending a lot of time
>with me and my son (as has my niece). My
>overscheduled sister loves it when I am here because
>it gives her some relief from her hectic life.
>
>In the case of my niece and nephew, their parents tend
>to give them a lot of orders (do this, don't do that,
>stop that, etc.) and a lot of time-outs. My devilish
>little nephew gets a lot of time-outs.
>
>So it doesn't surprise me that he tests me. He has
>come to know what to expect in reaction to his "bad"
>behavior from his parents. He already senses that my
>reaction is going to be different.
>
>But I don't know how to deal with him. I don't know
>how to react when he throws all of my clean laundry on
>the floor--or the many other "naughty" things that he
>does all day long. I love this little boy. Yesterday
>we had some other kids over that were close to his age
>to play with some sprinklers and wading pools that I
>had set up out back. He was so filled with joy and
>freedom as he played.
>
>Maybe he is just bored from being cooped up with me
>and my 7 mo. old. It is too oppressively hot outside
>to play out there much. And my sister has asked that I
>not allow her kids to watch TV, play video games, or
>use the computer, but hasn't given me much to keep
>them entertained with. And my baby gets very tired if
>I drag him all over town.
>
>To be honest, what goes on for me is that I look at my
>sweet but devilish little nephew and I wonder if my
>own son will be devilish like him. And if he is, how
>will that be for me as a parent? I want to "do"
>things differently so that my own son will be
>"better." All the while knowing that I can't control
>him. Will I be up to the task? Will my own son push
>my buttons in the way my nephew does? Will I be
>constantly tempted to take the easy way out
>(punishment, bribes, threats)?
>
>I suspect the answers to these questions are "yes."
>And so begins my task of learning how to parent in a
>non-violent and respectful way.
>
>Thanks for "listening" if you've made it this far.
>Would appreciate your feedback and comments.
>
>Elena

Meredith

--- In [email protected], Elenita Santaballa
<esantaballa@...> wrote:
>> But I don't know how to deal with him. I don't know
> how to react when he throws all of my clean laundry on
> the floor--or the many other "naughty" things that he
> does all day long.

Rather than seeing them as naughty, see them as a request for more
engagement. He's looking for things to do *and* some company. If you
can help him get what he needs, you won't be spending so much energy
reacting.

Actually, this may well be how his mom got into the trap of
scheduling a zillion things for her kids in the first place - these
kids may well need a lot of things to do. They don't necessarily
need to be classes and outings all the time, but some kids do have
higher energy needs than others.

When incidents like the laundry thing happens you have a chance to
look at his behavior as an opportunity to connect and engage with
him. What if you were to grab a tshirt out of the laundry (you can
fold it later) and start dancing around waving it in the air like a
flag or scarf? That'd be fun. Let him have one, too. Put some music
on. I bet the baby would love it, too - you could even do a sort of
peek-a-boo game with it if you wanted.

> To be honest, what goes on for me is that I look at my
> sweet but devilish little nephew and I wonder if my
> own son will be devilish like him. And if he is, how
> will that be for me as a parent? I want to "do"
> things differently so that my own son will be
> "better."

Well, there's no guarantee that your little one will be anything
like your nephew. That being said, you have a lovely opportunity to
do some thinking now and discovering some strategies. The first is:
don't expect to get anything done for a few years. Energetic kids
need parenting more than clean sheets ;) The next is: start looking
for ways to arrange your home with energetic play in mind. Look for
ways to open up floor space. Get rid of lamps and things that tip.
Think in terms of minimizing the need to say "no".

Its also good to look for toys and indoor play options that use
lots of big muscle groups. You let the kids jump on the furniture,
right? Maybe think about an air-mattress or extra cushions so they
can jump from the furniture to the floor and back. Really big balls,
like exercise balls or the bouncy things with the handle on top, can
be great fun. A small slide. Skateboards to use as scooters. Sit-n-
spin. Any weird thing to put on feet and make walking exciting. With
the baby, you may not want to get a bunch of balloons, but that's a
blast with slightly older kids. See if you can get some of the foil
kind at a dollar store. Scarves, or just big, flimsy pieces of
fabric. Streamers. Badminton raquets and birdies. Tunnels. A tent.
If the space is big enough, a swing or trapeze. Look at your
basement and attic, too, if you have either of those, with an eye to
making more indoor play areas.

Obviously you don't need all this right now! But its something to
keep in mind when you're out and about just in case you run across
something really neat or on sale.

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)

amshotwell

>>>>>>>>Our first day here, my niece invited us to her last day of
camp to see her final project. Afterward, she wanted to come home with
me and the baby. Her mother (my sister) reminded her that she had swim
team practice which she had already missed earlier in the week. My
niece became very upset, crying and insisting that she wanted to spend
time with her baby cousin. At which point my sister dragged her
kicking and screaming away to her own car<<<<

What I would take from watching this exchange is that it that there
should always be opportunity to discuss options and consequences of
those choices before a decision could be made. Taking the opportunity
to validate the child wanting to see her cousin but gentle reminders
to make sure the child is seeing the whole picture. Children's
emotions are so in the moment that they can't always see the whole
picture. I think we have to always be prepared to discuss and change
gears if need be. As was stated in other posts this is not always
possible to find the win win in every situation but participating in
the process will give the tools and foster trust and respect.

e.g Mom, I want to go with aunt and baby. ...well sweetie, I know how
much you enjoy seeing your cousin and it is very exciting they are
visiting , before you make this decision you may want to remember you
have already missed your swim practice earlier this week and I know
how much seeing your friends and swimming means to you. I want to
remind you that your Aunt and cousin are going to be here for x amount
of time. It is important to keep our commitment to the team but if you
feel that strongly about it, I am sure your team will understand that
you have family visiting.

I think this would help the child make an informed decision rather
than a rash emotional one-

Another option could have been to invite Aunt and baby to swim
practice as well.

I just think this is a good example of trying to get win-win
situations and using the process that was talked about earlier in the
week. Obviously your sister does not parent that way and in a quiet
moment where you and your sister are connecting perhaps you could
share your budding philosophy with her. She could be completely
frustrated and wanting a different perspective as I up until recently
totally parented as she does. (at least with this example) I also find
that observing how parents interact are great learning tools of how I
would do the same or differently.

>>>>Later, I asked how swim team practice had gone. My niece said that
it had been great, that she had spent a lot of time afterward playing
in the pool, and that she hadn't realized how much she needed the time
in the pool.<<<<<

I could be way off but this comment sounds to me like she is repeating
something your sister must have said to her after practice was over to
prove herself right in forcing her to go.( again because I have
parented this way and still am learning not too) Not to say that she
did not have a good time and did not benefit from the swimming.:)

>>>>>>>>>My nephew has a lot of behaviors that are difficult for me to
deal with. Most of them are what I think of
as the typical "terrible two"--or in this case, "terrible
three"--behaviors: whining when he doesn't get what he wants, temper
tantrums, throwing things, etc. He often does things that almost feel
like he is testing me: throwing all of my clean, folded laundry onto a
pile on the floor was the one that got my goat today.<<<<<<<<

Welcome to my world! My 3.5ds is the child who is teaching me to
mindful parent. He is very physical and emotional and when he is not
getting his needs served he hits he punches, he dumps things and does
this really annoying whine pant.The slightest sense that he is being
restricted in anyway makes him rebellious.What scares me is his
rebellion against safety issues as I really try not to restrict
him-e.g. he sneaks in the street. He can be very physical even when he
is not mad too. As i now really look hard at his behavior to try and
understand him I have discovered that he gets very physical with his
brother when he is bored ( I have ds9 and ds6) This is when I have to
change his surroundings get him outside try and engage him in
something but he does not always transition well depending how far
gone he is in his emotional state. Tantrums: I stay near ..I ask him
what he needs, sometimes he says sometimes he just rages. I quietly
offer him solutions which may or may not be accepted. Mostly I ask
him if he wants me to hold him and if he says no I say that I am here
when you are ready for me. I repeat after a minute or so and he
usually comes to me. I tell him how sorry I am that he is upset and I
want to help him make it better. This process can take anywhere from 5
minutes to an hour depending on the severity of the tantrum and the
cause and or his state of mind going into it: tired/hungry/sugar buzz.
---I try not to restrict what he eats and he does get a lot of treats,
but recently I am trying to see if there is a trend in his behavior
regarding his sugar intake. I have not seen anything conclusive but he
picked out on his own sugar free icepops last week. He ate them for a
few days and now won't touch them. I wonder if he is unconsciously
aware that the are not giving him the sugar rush he is used to and
that is why he does not like them anymore Hmmm?.

It is way too early to worry about how your baby will be at this age.
Enjoy him where he is... it goes so fast! So many times I had to catch
myself to stop and just enjoy, the dishes would eventually get done
but my beautiful boys are this big for a millisecond:). . By all means
though practice and formulate you ideas about parenting and use it on
your niece and nephew. You are lucky to get an early start as I am
just getting here, a little late but still my kids are young enough to
reap the benefit.

I mostly lurk here and glean from these wise and wonderful people. It
has helped me so much, I can't even begin to share how grateful I am
that I found this board.

I also recommend the NoMoreSpanking yahoo group, I have learned a
great deal there too.

Anne Marie

asmb65

>
> My nephew has a lot of behaviors that are difficult
> for me to deal with. Most of them are what I think of
> as the typical "terrible two"--or in this case,
> "terrible three"--behaviors: whining when he doesn't
> get what he wants, temper tantrums, throwing things,
> etc. He often does things that almost feel like he is
> testing me: throwing all of my clean, folded laundry
> onto a pile on the floor was the one that got my goat
> today.

He may not be"testing" you. He may want to play in the empty laundry
basket, he may want to see how the clothes will fly through the air.
Or he may have done this before with his parents and gotten a HUGE
response and he wants to see that adult big emotion again. Even if it
was scary.

My older boy is an observer, he hardly ever did anything "naughty"
when he was little, he was too busy watching everything (as I
understand now). My younger boy is a do-er and an imp. He is so sweet
and he loves getting reactions. He likes pinching me to see my
reaction. He'll be smiling when he does it. If it doesn't really hurt
I'll make a game of it and chase him around the house with us
pinching each other. If it does hurt I'll tell him it hurts and ask
him to please stop. But then I'll immediately distract him with
something new since at a few months under three he can't possibly
stop himself much of the time. He went through a stage of temper
tantrums and so did my older boy at more like age 4 than 2. They have
so little control of their emotions and life can be very frustrating
for little ones at times. Even just being little gets frustrating
sometimes. I feel its important to validate their feelings and try to
give them words for them - "You seem frustrated (disappointed,
annoyed...) to me" or "That's upsetting when ... happens, isn't it?"

Clean laundry thrown around? I hate to say it but get used to it! I
have changed my cleanliness, messiness and even personal hygiene
standards tremendously since having kids. If something like this
happens again with him try humor - put a pair of the shorts on your
head or something. Accept that he'll make a mess of the pile but
he'll also learn that he can trust you to be playful and not lecture
or time-out him for being playful and childish.

Susan