Lisa Blocker

Just wanted to share an interesting situation with you guys. We have a house guest this week... a friend of my 14 yr old's is visiting us. The plan was for them to attend a zookeeper day camp this week that they were both excited about. Today on the way my daughter became ill , immediately our guest wanted to know if she HAD to attend the day camp alone (she is a very shy, anxious child who attends public school) . I asked her if she wanted to... her response was "No but you paid for me to go and I am not sick, my mom would make me go but I don't want to go without Anna" So I told her she didn't have to go and that if Anna was well they could both go tomorrow (we were basically within sight of the zoo when Anna's nausea turned ugly so we drove in to tell them we were ill and couldn't attend today)
Anyway this led to a discussion on the way home about arbitrary rules and respect etc. Every time this child comes to my house her mother says things like "Well I told her she had to do this or that or to make sure with you about this or that etc... but she said it would be fine because you are 'cool' " Not sure my friend likes that but that is the view of her child regarding me. I asked B today on the way back in the car how all the rules at her house made her feel. She said they make her feel anxious and untrusted , that her mother tells her she is a good kid and then makes all kinds of rules and that makes her feel like her mother is lying. Then I asked her about the rules at my house....she said well the rules at your house make sense, they are rules that make everyone feel safe, protected and trusted. We have very few rules and mostly they are rules of consideration and rules of safety (like if you light a candle it should be resting on something
inflammable like a saucer or candle holder.... my friend's rule would be don't light candles). Anyway I thought that was really interesting since so many people say kids need rules they like rules etc. A.S Neill (Summerhill) does say that kids like rules and will make lots of rules for themselves (so we don't need to I think is what he is saying!). For years I have heard if kids don't have rules and limits they are unhappy. What I have seen proved to me over and over is that if kids are given arbitrary rules they feel untrusted ! Now I have proof directly from the mouth of a child who lives her life bound by rules all made by other people. Interestingly enough she lives with a step sister (same age) that sneaks, lies, cheats, breaks rules, skips school, runs away, has been asked to leave two schools, and so on.... the parents' answer to her behavior is to make more rules! UGH!
It just seems to me that if we give kids so many rules about sleeping, eating, behaving and everything else how will they ever learn to make their own decisions? How can these people expect their kids to make good choices in life if they are constantly making rules that say clearly "you are not trusted to make the right choice" ???
Just thought this was interesting!
Lisa Blocker







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[email protected]

In a message dated 6/25/2007 7:39:19 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

What I have seen proved to me over and over is that if kids are given
arbitrary rules they feel untrusted !


I am right there with you, and in fact, in an "argument" of sorts on a
message board I frequent regarding this type of things, teen's and children's
rights, drinking laws and responsibilities. You name it. Even my own house,
mostly, I am disagreed with.

This list is fast becoming my best friend in a sense...

Karen



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~It just seems to me that if we give kids so many rules about
sleeping, eating, behaving and everything else how will they ever
learn to make their own decisions? How can these people expect their
kids to make good choices in life if they are constantly making rules
that say clearly "you are not trusted to make the right choice" ???~~

Good point!

The other thing that really bothers me is how a child is treated when
they make a mistake. There isn't always that unconditional support and
love, it's all about shame. Why would you want to be honest with
people that shame you when you screw up? Most of the "screw-ups" are
really about adults having unrealistic expectations of children anyway.

I think we all deserve the chance to learn through our mistakes (or
"learning-takes" as Kelly calls them) without shame or guilt. Shame
erodes trust in oneself so deeply.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

seccotine_ch

This is SO true.

I grew up in a place where they were thousands of rules, most of
them totally cryptic for my sisters and I (though they made perfect
sense for my father and his huge need of control). My father is a
good man nevertheless and we loved him and respected him deeply, so
we didn't cheat, nor lie, but what I remember from my childhood is
this very strong feeling of powerlessness as I was completely
dependant from other's judgement to know if what I was doing was good
or bad.

My reaction to that is that I try to limit the number of rules at
home with my kids and not to be too strict with them. I have
realised, though, that it is much more difficult than I thought and
that they also live in a place where they can be "blamed" for
mistakes without really knowing why before. Working on it ...

There is a city, in Netherlands, where they found a creative solution
to the problem of security on the road : they suppresssed all the
signs, traffic-lights, speed limitation, and so on ... and it
worked ! Everybody has to pay attention to what the others are doing
and everybody is respectful - the number of accidents has
decreased. :)

Helen

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> ~~It just seems to me that if we give kids so many rules about
> sleeping, eating, behaving and everything else how will they ever
> learn to make their own decisions? How can these people expect their
> kids to make good choices in life if they are constantly making
rules
> that say clearly "you are not trusted to make the right choice" ???
~~
>
> Good point!
>
> The other thing that really bothers me is how a child is treated
when
> they make a mistake. There isn't always that unconditional support
and
> love, it's all about shame. Why would you want to be honest with
> people that shame you when you screw up? Most of the "screw-ups" are
> really about adults having unrealistic expectations of children
anyway.
>
> I think we all deserve the chance to learn through our mistakes (or
> "learning-takes" as Kelly calls them) without shame or guilt. Shame
> erodes trust in oneself so deeply.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>

oum rayan

Is everyone on the same wavelength with me today?!
Funny, the rule issue is one that recently came up in our house when our 4.8yo had a guest, (that being his 3rd cousin whose Mom is my dearest friend). Though she and I seem to think a lot alike, our kids have been raised very differently. Schedules and rules are the order of the day in her house, whereas in mine we fly by the seat of our pants most (okay, all) of the time. Our only rules are related to safety, consideration for others, and only recently have I needed to make a rule about staying seated while eating ( mealtime has been a little wild lately.) My son thinks, reasons things out, most all of the time, makes very good decisions. My niece, on the other hand, spends most of her time testing authority and rebelling against it. Thus, she is in 'time-out' so often I can't help but shake my head. At this point, it seems past the point of no return. She has no sense of power, except through rebellion, which the adults want to squash, which leads to more powerlessness
and rebellion, and on, and on.
One interesting note I'd like to mention...I'm a very free-flowing kind-of mom. But when she's here, she almost makes me want to impose strict rules on her, just to squeeze out some kind of reasonable behavior from her. (That implies she's not a bright kid... she is a VERY intelligent 4yo.) We'll be spending more time together now that it's summer,(I have her for a week in July) so wish me luck. I admit, I am eager to kind-of experiment with her to see if her behaviors would change in a different environment.

Lisa Blocker <[email protected]> wrote:
Just wanted to share an interesting situation with you guys. We have a house guest this week... a friend of my 14 yr old's is visiting us. The plan was for them to attend a zookeeper day camp this week that they were both excited about. Today on the way my daughter became ill , immediately our guest wanted to know if she HAD to attend the day camp alone (she is a very shy, anxious child who attends public school) . I asked her if she wanted to... her response was "No but you paid for me to go and I am not sick, my mom would make me go but I don't want to go without Anna" So I told her she didn't have to go and that if Anna was well they could both go tomorrow (we were basically within sight of the zoo when Anna's nausea turned ugly so we drove in to tell them we were ill and couldn't attend today)
Anyway this led to a discussion on the way home about arbitrary rules and respect etc. Every time this child comes to my house her mother says things like "Well I told her she had to do this or that or to make sure with you about this or that etc... but she said it would be fine because you are 'cool' " Not sure my friend likes that but that is the view of her child regarding me. I asked B today on the way back in the car how all the rules at her house made her feel. She said they make her feel anxious and untrusted , that her mother tells her she is a good kid and then makes all kinds of rules and that makes her feel like her mother is lying. Then I asked her about the rules at my house....she said well the rules at your house make sense, they are rules that make everyone feel safe, protected and trusted. We have very few rules and mostly they are rules of consideration and rules of safety (like if you light a candle it should be resting on something
inflammable like a saucer or candle holder.... my friend's rule would be don't light candles). Anyway I thought that was really interesting since so many people say kids need rules they like rules etc. A.S Neill (Summerhill) does say that kids like rules and will make lots of rules for themselves (so we don't need to I think is what he is saying!). For years I have heard if kids don't have rules and limits they are unhappy. What I have seen proved to me over and over is that if kids are given arbitrary rules they feel untrusted ! Now I have proof directly from the mouth of a child who lives her life bound by rules all made by other people. Interestingly enough she lives with a step sister (same age) that sneaks, lies, cheats, breaks rules, skips school, runs away, has been asked to leave two schools, and so on.... the parents' answer to her behavior is to make more rules! UGH!
It just seems to me that if we give kids so many rules about sleeping, eating, behaving and everything else how will they ever learn to make their own decisions? How can these people expect their kids to make good choices in life if they are constantly making rules that say clearly "you are not trusted to make the right choice" ???
Just thought this was interesting!
Lisa Blocker

__________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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woodhaven_farm

I just led preschool vacation bible school--and for the third year in
a row asked myself why I do this (well, I do it because i love the
kids and want my kid to experience vbs but not with some crazy adult).
My co-leader also has a 4 year old, who spent 2/3 rds of each evening
in the bathroom in timeout. The only time he wasn't in time out he
was getting spanked, begging for forgiveness and/or mercy, or beating
up other kids.

I am struggling over how to handle this (not only did she spank she
spanked 5-10 times at a time, literally making him beg).

Mom controlled everything she could and constantly told him he wasn't
good enough, couldn't do it right, or wasn't good at anything.

When she walked out midweek and I called her at home to see if she
was coming back, she complained to me (with child in background) how
he ruined everything and how mad she was at him for ruining things.

Poor kid.

He told my son that when he gets big he can tell other people what to
do and be the boss of them (in between punching him).

I also lead sunday school for these kids and let me tell you it can
be a real challenge to not turn into the same kind of parent. I am
really rethinking my son being in this environment.

I teamteach with my dearest friend, and I have been amazed at the
transformation in her. She treats the kids like they are wild animals
that might turn on us at any moment. She told me that I need to start
tough and show no mercy or they will walk all over me!

I only have the kids for a few hours but I am working really hard at
saying yes. I think several of them may have eaten themselves sick,
and they definately look at me strange when I join them in their play
or initiate my own.

It really reinforces to me that I have found out how I do not want to
be and how I do want to parent.

Thanks guys.



- In [email protected], oum rayan <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> . My niece, on the other hand, spends most of her time testing
authority and rebelling against it. Thus, she is in 'time-out' so
often I can't help but shake my head. At this point, it seems past
the point of no return. She has no sense of power, except through
rebellion, which the adults want to squash, which leads to more
powerlessness
> and rebellion, and on, and on.
> One interesting note I'd like to mention...I'm a very free-
flowing kind-of mom. But when she's here, she almost makes me want to
impose strict rules on her, just to squeeze out some kind of
reasonable behavior from her. (That implies she's not a bright kid...
she is a VERY intelligent 4yo.) We'll be spending more time together
now that it's summer,(I have her for a week in July) so wish me luck.
I admit, I am eager to kind-of experiment with her to see if her
behaviors would change in a different environment.
>
> Lisa Blocker <[email protected]> wrote:
> Just wanted to share an interesting situation with you
guys. We have a house guest this week... a friend of my 14 yr old's
is visiting us. The plan was for them to attend a zookeeper day camp
this week that they were both excited about. Today on the way my
daughter became ill , immediately our guest wanted to know if she HAD
to attend the day camp alone (she is a very shy, anxious child who
attends public school) . I asked her if she wanted to... her response
was "No but you paid for me to go and I am not sick, my mom would
make me go but I don't want to go without Anna" So I told her she
didn't have to go and that if Anna was well they could both go
tomorrow (we were basically within sight of the zoo when Anna's
nausea turned ugly so we drove in to tell them we were ill and
couldn't attend today)
> Anyway this led to a discussion on the way home about arbitrary
rules and respect etc. Every time this child comes to my house her
mother says things like "Well I told her she had to do this or that
or to make sure with you about this or that etc... but she said it
would be fine because you are 'cool' " Not sure my friend likes that
but that is the view of her child regarding me. I asked B today on
the way back in the car how all the rules at her house made her feel.
She said they make her feel anxious and untrusted , that her mother
tells her she is a good kid and then makes all kinds of rules and
that makes her feel like her mother is lying. Then I asked her about
the rules at my house....she said well the rules at your house make
sense, they are rules that make everyone feel safe, protected and
trusted. We have very few rules and mostly they are rules of
consideration and rules of safety (like if you light a candle it
should be resting on something
> inflammable like a saucer or candle holder.... my friend's rule
would be don't light candles). Anyway I thought that was really
interesting since so many people say kids need rules they like rules
etc. A.S Neill (Summerhill) does say that kids like rules and will
make lots of rules for themselves (so we don't need to I think is
what he is saying!). For years I have heard if kids don't have rules
and limits they are unhappy. What I have seen proved to me over and
over is that if kids are given arbitrary rules they feel untrusted !
Now I have proof directly from the mouth of a child who lives her
life bound by rules all made by other people. Interestingly enough
she lives with a step sister (same age) that sneaks, lies, cheats,
breaks rules, skips school, runs away, has been asked to leave two
schools, and so on.... the parents' answer to her behavior is to make
more rules! UGH!
> It just seems to me that if we give kids so many rules about
sleeping, eating, behaving and everything else how will they ever
learn to make their own decisions? How can these people expect their
kids to make good choices in life if they are constantly making rules
that say clearly "you are not trusted to make the right choice" ???
> Just thought this was interesting!
> Lisa Blocker
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with
Yahoo! FareChase.
> http://farechase.yahoo.com/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Need Mail bonding?
> Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Fetteroll

On Jun 28, 2007, at 9:29 PM, woodhaven_farm wrote:

> Mom controlled everything she could and constantly told him he wasn't
> good enough, couldn't do it right, or wasn't good at anything.

> she complained to me (with child in background) how
> he ruined everything and how mad she was at him for ruining things.

> She treats the kids like they are wild animals
> that might turn on us at any moment. She told me that I need to start
> tough and show no mercy or they will walk all over me!

This isn't meant as a religious argument since I'm not but the people
involved are and it's in a church.

This strikes me as being so far from how Jesus would have treated
children that if they could see themselves objectively they'd be
mortified. Or *should* be.

People get the idea that they need to wait for kids to be good in
order to be kind to them. The total opposite is true. I can't imagine
Jesus choosing any other way to be.

I don't know what to suggest. How would your minister see it if you
put it the way I did? Some churches offer parenting classes. Are
there gentle parenting classes that would be compatible with your
church's beliefs? That might be a way of approaching it sideways.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lesa

Or maybe you could take a stab at unschooling God's journey! You can check
out the yahoo group here: http://groups.yahoo
com/group/UnschoolingGodJourney/ and check out: http://thegodjourney.com
and you could read my current blog post: http://lifeacademy
homeschooljournal.net/2007/06/29/detoxing-from-church/

Jesus definitely wouldn't treat anyone that way... especially children!
http://stoptherod.net/
http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/




Lesa M.
Crunchy Unschooling mom to dd10
Currently reading "The Road Less Traveled"

http://livinginfreedomeveryday.blogspot.com/

"I say that with cruelty and oppression, it is everybody's business to
interfere when they see it." - Anna Sewell

-------Original Message-------

From: Fetteroll
Date: 06/30/07 18:15:31
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: a funny thing about rules


On Jun 28, 2007, at 9:29 PM, woodhaven_farm wrote:

> Mom controlled everything she could and constantly told him he wasn't
> good enough, couldn't do it right, or wasn't good at anything.

> she complained to me (with child in background) how
> he ruined everything and how mad she was at him for ruining things.

> She treats the kids like they are wild animals
> that might turn on us at any moment. She told me that I need to start
> tough and show no mercy or they will walk all over me!

This isn't meant as a religious argument since I'm not but the people
involved are and it's in a church.

This strikes me as being so far from how Jesus would have treated
children that if they could see themselves objectively they'd be
mortified. Or *should* be.

People get the idea that they need to wait for kids to be good in
order to be kind to them. The total opposite is true. I can't imagine
Jesus choosing any other way to be.

I don't know what to suggest. How would your minister see it if you
put it the way I did? Some churches offer parenting classes. Are
there gentle parenting classes that would be compatible with your
church's beliefs? That might be a way of approaching it sideways.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Julie

Lesa -

Is there a yahoo group called God's Journey -

I just got done watching videos on the godjourney - I am dumbfounded -

It is like somebody took the words right out of my mouth!



Julie F



From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Lesa
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 7:12 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: a funny thing about rules



Or maybe you could take a stab at unschooling God's journey! You can check
out the yahoo group here: http://groups.yahoo
com/group/UnschoolingGodJourney/ and check out: http://thegodjourney.com
and you could read my current blog post: http://lifeacademy
homeschooljournal.net/2007/06/29/detoxing-from-church/

Jesus definitely wouldn't treat anyone that way... especially children!
http://stoptherod.net/
http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/

Lesa M.
Crunchy Unschooling mom to dd10
Currently reading "The Road Less Traveled"

http://livinginfreedomeveryday.blogspot.com/

"I say that with cruelty and oppression, it is everybody's business to
interfere when they see it." - Anna Sewell

-------Original Message-------

From: Fetteroll
Date: 06/30/07 18:15:31
To: [email protected]
<mailto:unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: a funny thing about rules


On Jun 28, 2007, at 9:29 PM, woodhaven_farm wrote:

> Mom controlled everything she could and constantly told him he wasn't
> good enough, couldn't do it right, or wasn't good at anything.

> she complained to me (with child in background) how
> he ruined everything and how mad she was at him for ruining things.

> She treats the kids like they are wild animals
> that might turn on us at any moment. She told me that I need to start
> tough and show no mercy or they will walk all over me!

This isn't meant as a religious argument since I'm not but the people
involved are and it's in a church.

This strikes me as being so far from how Jesus would have treated
children that if they could see themselves objectively they'd be
mortified. Or *should* be.

People get the idea that they need to wait for kids to be good in
order to be kind to them. The total opposite is true. I can't imagine
Jesus choosing any other way to be.

I don't know what to suggest. How would your minister see it if you
put it the way I did? Some churches offer parenting classes. Are
there gentle parenting classes that would be compatible with your
church's beliefs? That might be a way of approaching it sideways.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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SPONSORED LINKS
Home schooling curriculum
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Home schooling material
Home schooling resource
Home schooling high school
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Moderator Central
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for moderators
of Yahoo! Groups.
Yoga Groups
Exchange insights
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