rn9302000

I have mostly been lurking on this board, we are new to unschooling,
just actually realizing its naturally how we have been living.
I do have some questions to bring up. I have been reading with
interest the thread on limits.
I have a somewhat different view right now. I feel it is our job as
parents to guide our kids, I wouldn't let my just turned 7 yr old
watch adult swim cartoons, because at 7 I don't think she should watch
violent humor. I do agree with Cameron in that things can influence
some people. We don't know for sure what will or won't influence our
kids. We can hope we have raised them to know right from wrong, and
what is pretend humor on tv and what is real.

I realize Cameron's son is older but in a way from reading your posts
Cameron I would say he is asking you for limits even though he says he
is not. It's just the feeling I get for what its worth. And if he is
looking for limits because as someone pointed out he doesn't trust
himself that is not a bad thing, it's just how he feels at this point
in his life. maybe he will begin to trust himself as the unschooling
life unfolds.......I don't know.

But I guess my question is why is it not truly unschooling if we help
our kids by setting limits? why is it a bad thing for me to limit my
young children from watching what i consider violent tv? that i don't
want them exposed to someone eating a bloody penis, why is that wrong?

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: rn930@...


I have a somewhat different view right now. I feel it is our job as
parents to guide our kids, I wouldn't let my just turned 7 yr old
watch adult swim cartoons, because at 7 I don't think she should watch
violent humor.

-=-=-=-

Does she WANT to watch it?

Neither of my boys at seven wanted to either. They were very happy wih
Bugs & Daffy and Wile E. Coyote.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I do agree with Cameron in that things can influence some people.

-=-=-=-=-=-

I agree and will go one step further: I think things influence ALL
people. Maybe not the same things, but ALL people are influenced by
things.

-=-=-=-=-

We can hope we have raised them to know right from wrong, and
what is pretend humor on tv and what is real.

-=-=-=-=-=-

I think humor is humor. What's funny to one may not be funny to
another, but I don't think there is "pretend humor" and "real humor."

ANd I don't think TV has a monopoly on humor (pretend OR real).

-=-=-=-=-=-

I realize Cameron's son is older but in a way from reading your posts
Cameron I would say he is asking you for limits even though he says he
is not. It's just the feeling I get for what its worth. And if he is
looking for limits because as someone pointed out he doesn't trust
himself that is not a bad thing, it's just how he feels at this point
in his life. maybe he will begin to trust himself as the unschooling
life unfolds.......I don't know.

-=-=-=-=-

I think the more he's restricted the LESS he will trust himself.

School does that to children every day. I don't think unschooling
parents should.

-=-=-=-=-

But I guess my question is why is it not truly unschooling if we help
our kids by setting limits?

-=-=-=-=-=

Why do you feel the need to set limits? There are *plenty* of natural
limits. Setting arbitrary limits is...arbitrary and won't help
unschooling blossom.

-=-=-=-=-

why is it a bad thing for me to limit my young children from watching
what i consider violent tv?

-=-=-=-=-

DO your young children *want* to watch violent tv?

-=-=-=-=-=-

that i don't want them exposed to someone eating a bloody penis, why is
that wrong?

-=-=-=-=-

Do they *want* to be exposed to a cartoon character's eating a bloody
penis?


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
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rn9302000

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rn930@...
>
>
>
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> "Does she WANT to watch it?
>
> Neither of my boys at seven wanted to either. They were very happy wih
> Bugs & Daffy and Wile E. Coyote."

No, she does not want to watch violent humor or adult swim, I was just
being hypothetical. She is perfectly happy with animal planet, sponge
bob, and noggin.



>
>
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> "I think humor is humor. What's funny to one may not be funny to
> another, but I don't think there is "pretend humor" and "real humor."
>
> ANd I don't think TV has a monopoly on humor (pretend OR real)."

When I said pretend humour I meant pretend actions , such as eating
the bloody body part.....adults know this is not real, small kids may
take it literally.
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
>
>
> I think the more he's restricted the LESS he will trust himself.
>
> School does that to children every day. I don't think unschooling
> parents should.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> But I guess my question is why is it not truly unschooling if we help
> our kids by setting limits?
>
> -=-=-=-=-=
>
> Why do you feel the need to set limits? There are *plenty* of natural
> limits. Setting arbitrary limits is...arbitrary and won't help
> unschooling blossom.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> why is it a bad thing for me to limit my young children from watching
> what i consider violent tv?
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> DO your young children *want* to watch violent tv?

No they do not want to watch violent tv, again i was being
hypothetical, because if they did I would set a limit and I wouldn't
let them, at least not at this age.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
> from AOL at AOL.com.
>

Fetteroll

On May 16, 2007, at 5:13 PM, rn9302000 wrote:

> No, she does not want to watch violent humor or adult swim, I was just
> being hypothetical.

Hypotheticals aren't useful for discussing how to be with our kids.

Hypothetical children don't have reasons for their choices. They just
do something because it sounds like it could happen.

Real children have reasons for their choices and those we can discuss.

Real examples about real children please.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Well the hypothetical was based on a real example and i felt the
question useful.

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: rn930@...

Well the hypothetical was based on a real example and i felt the
question useful.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

But I have never met a seven year old who wants to watch graphic sex or
violence.

Have you?

Most hypotheticals that show up on these lists are *not* based on real
examples. They are based wholly on fear of what *might* happen.

That's just not our reality.

What's useful are real questions about real kids.

I mentioned in an earlier email about sex, drugs, and drinking. I have
*real* experience with all three. And I have passing knowledge of
Cameron's friends' relationships with their families and how *they*
(poorly) handled these things. We can talk about that, if you'd like.

I can also talk about my 11 year old's tv habits and how we work *with*
him.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org





________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.

Fetteroll

On May 17, 2007, at 2:51 AM, RN930@... wrote:

> Well the hypothetical was based on a real example and i felt the
> question useful.

Conventional parenting is basically reactive: responding to
children's actions with the goal of molding the child. The advice is
of the form "When child does x, you do y." With conventional
parenting it doesn't make any difference why the child is reacting in
that way. The parent's job is to stop the behavior. For example, if a
7 yo wants to watch an R rated horror movie conventional parenting
says no. So hypotheticals can work to explain conventional parenting.

Mindful parenting is proactive. It focuses on the child's needs and
those aren't present in a hypothetical. If a 7 yo wanted to watch an
R rated horror movie there's a whole world of motivations behind it
well beyond "I want to." The advice would help the parent focus on
what the child really wants. Maybe they saw the cover and think it's
about something it isn't. Maybe a friend saw it and described a funny
scene. Maybe it's because big brother is watching it and he wants to
be with his brother. Maybe it's because he understands what it's
about and really wants to see it -- in which case we'd suggest
strategies to help the child see it comfortably and have power over
the movie (free to stop at any point, fast forward, watch in the
morning and so on.)

None of the above makes sense in a hypothetical. Hypothetical
children can be what if'd into situations that fit the solution the
parent wants to hear, for instance, "What if the 7 yo just wanted to
watch period?" Just because it's plausible, doesn't mean there are
real children who behave that way.

Real kids don't "just want to." There's a whole family dynamic,
personality, history, unmet needs and so forth behind what they want.

Maybe what's confusing you is you're taking advice tailored to one
person's family and assuming it's like conventional parenting: if a 5
yo wants to watch the news, let them.

Since she had already built the foundation that there was a lot of
discussion in her family, that important aspect was there. The child
wouldn't be watching without parent support. It was clear either they
would be there with him to explain things or he knew he could come to
them.

Mindful parenting isn't cookie cutter advice. Parents shouldn't be
parking their 5 yos in front of the 6 o'clock news! ;-) But if a
child wants to watch the news because they've had experience with it
and has a relationship of support then his interests should be
supported.

Joyce



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb Lewis

*** I feel it is our job as parents to guide our kids, ***

I do too, and I've never read unschooling advice on this list that claimed
otherwise. When we write about not controlling or limiting our kids we
don't mean we ignore our kids or that we don't care about what they're
doing.

***I wouldn't let my just turned 7 yr old
watch adult swim cartoons, because at 7 I don't think she should watch
violent humor.***

When Dylan was little he liked monster movies and science fiction/ horror
movies from the fifties and sixties. There's no gore, really, in those old
movies. But he liked all kinds of science fiction and horror so he
gradually saw newer movies. I watched with him and I knew what was going on
with him by the way he'd talk to the TV and get down and act out scenes. I
would sometimes elaborate on a scene, "That guy is so mean!" And Dylan
would talk about why characters made the choices they made. He wasn't
alone when he watched. I understood what *he* could handle. It's
sometimes hard for parents to separate what they think their kids can handle
from what the kid really can handle. That comes from our natural instinct
to protect them, and it's good we have that instinct, but we also owe it to
our kids to let them grow in their own way. They're timetable shouldn't be
set by us. They're born perfectly suited to being individuals. <g>

If I thought there was a scene in a movie that might disturb Dylan I'd just
tell him what I thought. He (in every case, if I remember right) decided
to watch the movie anyway. I remember at the end of one of the Godzilla
movies, (The one where he's melting in the volcano) Dylan turned the TV off
and said "I'm never watching THAT again." When we talked about it he said
he felt sad for Godzilla and they shouldn't have ended the movie that way.
We made up different endings. At first they were all about Godzilla
stomping the guys who tricked him into the volcano but our made up endings
gradually got sillier. After some days he decided to watch the movie again
and we talked about the special
effects of Godzilla melting. He now fondly recalls his viewing of that
movie, all these years later. We still love to watch those old Godzilla
movies together. <g> We throw popcorn at the bad guys (and the monsters are
never the bad guys<g>)

***I do agree with Cameron in that things can influence
some people. We don't know for sure what will or won't influence our
kids. ***

Humans are being influenced all the time by everything around them. People
were being influenced before TV was ever invented.<g> Our kids will be
influenced by family members, neighbors, friends, smells, tastes, textures,
temperatures, grass, music, bees, water, dreams, cars, sculptures,
mountains, paintings, dirt... We can't and shouldn't try to be the only
influence on our kids. All people are not the same, all of us evolve as
we grow and all of our growth and evolution comes from our experience and
environment. The more we experience (safely, with the help of people who
love us) the more intelligent and capable we become. That's how it should
be. Our kids are not destined to become some fresher version of ourselves.
They are themselves and we need to let them be themselves. That brain is
not ours. <g> (dang it anyway, I could use a fresh brain. HEY, that may be
why I love zombie movies!)

***We can hope we have raised them to know right from wrong, and
what is pretend humor on tv and what is real.***

It can be more than a hope. What's that quote? "If you can't be a good
example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." <g>
We can model goodness, kindness, honesty. We can model thoughtful decision
making and respect for others. We can and will influence our kids. We
can't help but influence our kids! We just can't expect to be the *only*
influence. That wouldn't be good or natural or healthy. But we are the
steady influence. We are the continuous feed
from birth and there's a lot of power in that. We need to be more dedicated
to being a helpful guide for our child's individual journey than we are
dedicated to trying to make them just like us.

***I realize Cameron's son is older but in a way from reading your posts
Cameron I would say he is asking you for limits even though he says he
is not. It's just the feeling I get for what its worth. ***

I think it's a mistake to let the voice of our unfounded fears overpower the
voice of our children.

***...if he is looking for limits because as someone pointed out he doesn't
trust
himself that is not a bad thing, it's just how he feels at this point
in his life. ***

I think it is a bad thing. We all have doubts and rely on others for help
or reassurance from time to time. But a healthy survival depends on our
being able to make good decisions. If we can't trust ourselves we can't
make good decisions. Kids who don't have confidence in themselves are
much more likely to be at risk of deception by others. It's not just a bad
thing, it's dangerous. If a child of thirteen is always depending on
adults to make up his mind he's at risk. Not all adults will have his best
interest at heart. We only become capable and confident when we know and
trust ourselves.

***maybe he will begin to trust himself as the unschooling
life unfolds.......I don't know.***

I do know. People don't learn to trust themselves until and unless they
have a lot of experience making their own decisions. Kids will make poor
choices. We all do. But making some questionable choices doesn't mean we
should be able to or can't continue to make choices. And parents need to be
aware of the difference between a poor choice and a choice the parent just
doesn't agree with. One is not necessarily the other. <g> As difficult as
it has been for me to accept, I am not always right. <bwg> We can help our
kids. We can ask questions. We can express our concerns and even say "I
think that's a bad idea and here's why." But that doesn't mean our kids
have to agree with us, and it doesn't mean we're right. Our kids
definitely need our thoughtful guidance. They also really need to make
their own choices.

Unschooling can't work in a home where kids aren't trusted. It just won't
happen. Learning takes exploration and in order to explore a person needs
to be free. Unschooling parents need to be brave and let their kids be
themselves.

***my question is why is it not truly unschooling if we help
our kids by setting limits? ***

Controlling other people is counter productive. First, it's hard. It
almost never works the way we wish it would. Once you set a limit how do
you enforce it? You either have to trust the kid won't exceed the limit or
you have to set in place some other kinds of limits to ensure the first one
is maintained. If you could trust him, why the limit? It's complicated.
And control is an illusion. We might stop our kids from doing something
when we're around but what about when we're not around? What about when
we're asleep? When they go to a friend's house? When we go to the store
and they stay home?

Unschooling only works when people are free to explore. That doesn't mean
"left to their own devices" as talk show hosts are fond of saying.<g> Our
kids shouldn't be ignored or neglected or scooted out the door with a broom
so we can clean house. We should be involved in their life in fun and
helpful ways as much as they want us.

Limits are things people talk about a lot but don't think about too much.
We hear from our parents about our limits and when we're grown we hear about
how kids need limits and when our own kids come along we're fairly itching
to set some limits because that's what parents do. We start our life with
our children believing they're always on the verge of doing something
they're not supposed to do so we are ever on the look out for ways to stop
them.

But unschooling parents don't think of limits as things that "help"
children. Unschoolers think *help* helps a child. <g>
Unschooling parents believe their kids are doing exactly what they're
supposed to do. Exploring the world where they will spend their whole
lives. Instead of looking for reasons they should be limited in their
explorations we look for ways to help them explore safely and happily.
We're not standing in their way. We're not the roadblock between our kid
and where our kid wants to go. We're the tour guide, helping him go just as
far as *he* wants. Its a big world. We're not going to be the biggest part
of our kid's lives for very long. The very best thing we can do for them is
to help them come to know their world and be confident in it. We can't do
that by setting up unnatural boundaries.


Deb Lewis

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Deb Lewis" <d.lewis@...>
wrote:
>> When Dylan was little he liked monster movies and science
fiction/ horror
> movies from the fifties and sixties. There's no gore, really, in
those old
> movies.

Ooooooh - there's a good example. Mo can't watch a lot of those
older movies *because* they use so much psychological tension. One
of my all-time favorite movies is *Forbidden Planet*. There is
absolutely no on-screen violence, but it terrified Mo and we had to
turn it off pretty quickly.

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)







> *** I feel it is our job as parents to guide our kids, ***
>
> I do too, and I've never read unschooling advice on this list that
claimed
> otherwise. When we write about not controlling or limiting our
kids we
> don't mean we ignore our kids or that we don't care about what
they're
> doing.
>
> ***I wouldn't let my just turned 7 yr old
> watch adult swim cartoons, because at 7 I don't think she should
watch
> violent humor.***
>
> When Dylan was little he liked monster movies and science fiction/
horror
> movies from the fifties and sixties. There's no gore, really, in
those old
> movies. But he liked all kinds of science fiction and horror so he
> gradually saw newer movies. I watched with him and I knew what
was going on
> with him by the way he'd talk to the TV and get down and act out
scenes. I
> would sometimes elaborate on a scene, "That guy is so mean!" And
Dylan
> would talk about why characters made the choices they made. He
wasn't
> alone when he watched. I understood what *he* could handle.
It's
> sometimes hard for parents to separate what they think their kids
can handle
> from what the kid really can handle. That comes from our natural
instinct
> to protect them, and it's good we have that instinct, but we also
owe it to
> our kids to let them grow in their own way. They're timetable
shouldn't be
> set by us. They're born perfectly suited to being individuals. <g>
>
> If I thought there was a scene in a movie that might disturb Dylan
I'd just
> tell him what I thought. He (in every case, if I remember right)
decided
> to watch the movie anyway. I remember at the end of one of the
Godzilla
> movies, (The one where he's melting in the volcano) Dylan turned
the TV off
> and said "I'm never watching THAT again." When we talked about
it he said
> he felt sad for Godzilla and they shouldn't have ended the movie
that way.
> We made up different endings. At first they were all about
Godzilla
> stomping the guys who tricked him into the volcano but our made up
endings
> gradually got sillier. After some days he decided to watch the
movie again
> and we talked about the special
> effects of Godzilla melting. He now fondly recalls his viewing
of that
> movie, all these years later. We still love to watch those old
Godzilla
> movies together. <g> We throw popcorn at the bad guys (and the
monsters are
> never the bad guys<g>)
>
> ***I do agree with Cameron in that things can influence
> some people. We don't know for sure what will or won't influence
our
> kids. ***
>
> Humans are being influenced all the time by everything around
them. People
> were being influenced before TV was ever invented.<g> Our kids
will be
> influenced by family members, neighbors, friends, smells, tastes,
textures,
> temperatures, grass, music, bees, water, dreams, cars, sculptures,
> mountains, paintings, dirt... We can't and shouldn't try to be
the only
> influence on our kids. All people are not the same, all of us
evolve as
> we grow and all of our growth and evolution comes from our
experience and
> environment. The more we experience (safely, with the help of
people who
> love us) the more intelligent and capable we become. That's how
it should
> be. Our kids are not destined to become some fresher version of
ourselves.
> They are themselves and we need to let them be themselves. That
brain is
> not ours. <g> (dang it anyway, I could use a fresh brain. HEY,
that may be
> why I love zombie movies!)
>
> ***We can hope we have raised them to know right from wrong, and
> what is pretend humor on tv and what is real.***
>
> It can be more than a hope. What's that quote? "If you can't be
a good
> example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." <g>
> We can model goodness, kindness, honesty. We can model thoughtful
decision
> making and respect for others. We can and will influence our
kids. We
> can't help but influence our kids! We just can't expect to be the
*only*
> influence. That wouldn't be good or natural or healthy. But we
are the
> steady influence. We are the continuous feed
> from birth and there's a lot of power in that. We need to be more
dedicated
> to being a helpful guide for our child's individual journey than
we are
> dedicated to trying to make them just like us.
>
> ***I realize Cameron's son is older but in a way from reading your
posts
> Cameron I would say he is asking you for limits even though he
says he
> is not. It's just the feeling I get for what its worth. ***
>
> I think it's a mistake to let the voice of our unfounded fears
overpower the
> voice of our children.
>
> ***...if he is looking for limits because as someone pointed out
he doesn't
> trust
> himself that is not a bad thing, it's just how he feels at this
point
> in his life. ***
>
> I think it is a bad thing. We all have doubts and rely on others
for help
> or reassurance from time to time. But a healthy survival depends
on our
> being able to make good decisions. If we can't trust ourselves we
can't
> make good decisions. Kids who don't have confidence in
themselves are
> much more likely to be at risk of deception by others. It's not
just a bad
> thing, it's dangerous. If a child of thirteen is always
depending on
> adults to make up his mind he's at risk. Not all adults will
have his best
> interest at heart. We only become capable and confident when we
know and
> trust ourselves.
>
> ***maybe he will begin to trust himself as the unschooling
> life unfolds.......I don't know.***
>
> I do know. People don't learn to trust themselves until and
unless they
> have a lot of experience making their own decisions. Kids will
make poor
> choices. We all do. But making some questionable choices doesn't
mean we
> should be able to or can't continue to make choices. And parents
need to be
> aware of the difference between a poor choice and a choice the
parent just
> doesn't agree with. One is not necessarily the other. <g> As
difficult as
> it has been for me to accept, I am not always right. <bwg> We can
help our
> kids. We can ask questions. We can express our concerns and even
say "I
> think that's a bad idea and here's why." But that doesn't mean
our kids
> have to agree with us, and it doesn't mean we're right. Our kids
> definitely need our thoughtful guidance. They also really need
to make
> their own choices.
>
> Unschooling can't work in a home where kids aren't trusted. It
just won't
> happen. Learning takes exploration and in order to explore a
person needs
> to be free. Unschooling parents need to be brave and let their
kids be
> themselves.
>
> ***my question is why is it not truly unschooling if we help
> our kids by setting limits? ***
>
> Controlling other people is counter productive. First, it's
hard. It
> almost never works the way we wish it would. Once you set a limit
how do
> you enforce it? You either have to trust the kid won't exceed the
limit or
> you have to set in place some other kinds of limits to ensure the
first one
> is maintained. If you could trust him, why the limit? It's
complicated.
> And control is an illusion. We might stop our kids from doing
something
> when we're around but what about when we're not around? What
about when
> we're asleep? When they go to a friend's house? When we go to
the store
> and they stay home?
>
> Unschooling only works when people are free to explore. That
doesn't mean
> "left to their own devices" as talk show hosts are fond of
saying.<g> Our
> kids shouldn't be ignored or neglected or scooted out the door
with a broom
> so we can clean house. We should be involved in their life in
fun and
> helpful ways as much as they want us.
>
> Limits are things people talk about a lot but don't think about
too much.
> We hear from our parents about our limits and when we're grown we
hear about
> how kids need limits and when our own kids come along we're fairly
itching
> to set some limits because that's what parents do. We start our
life with
> our children believing they're always on the verge of doing
something
> they're not supposed to do so we are ever on the look out for ways
to stop
> them.
>
> But unschooling parents don't think of limits as things that "help"
> children. Unschoolers think *help* helps a child. <g>
> Unschooling parents believe their kids are doing exactly what
they're
> supposed to do. Exploring the world where they will spend their
whole
> lives. Instead of looking for reasons they should be limited in
their
> explorations we look for ways to help them explore safely and
happily.
> We're not standing in their way. We're not the roadblock between
our kid
> and where our kid wants to go. We're the tour guide, helping him
go just as
> far as *he* wants. Its a big world. We're not going to be the
biggest part
> of our kid's lives for very long. The very best thing we can do
for them is
> to help them come to know their world and be confident in it. We
can't do
> that by setting up unnatural boundaries.
>
>
> Deb Lewis
>

Deb

And too their levels of interest in things/ability to handle things
changes over time - last year, DS (almost 9) didn't even want us to
watch the Harry Potter movies in another room - just hearing some of
the music and all was too much. Recently, however, he's decided he
really LIKES the movies and I'm thinking of checking out the
audiotapes from the library for a car trip this summer. He's also
seen pretty much all the James Bond movies (gotta love those
marathon weeks/weekends on TMC and TNT and all like that). He's
decided he likes the classic Bond (Sean Connery, who BTW, got better
looking as he aged IMO) and the Pierce Brosnan ones but not the
other guys (not even the most recent Casino Royale which we watched
on DVD - that was a fun connection: the new Casino Royale, the old
Casino Royale spoof made in the 60s, and the Get Smart Again movie
which spoofs the old Get Smart series as well as all the spy movie
genre). Until about 6 months ago I don't think he even noticed there
were females in the movies, except insofar as they helped or
hindered 007. Their suggestive names mean nothing to him. About 6
months or so ago, he asked why James Bond was always kissing all the
ladies. That's pretty mild a question for what is seen and implied.
I just told him it was part of that character that he does that but
it's not typical of most people (my question is given the type of
physical damage he takes in several of the movies, how does
he "manage" with all those ladies?)

Anyhow, all this to say that I think sometimes we place our own
adult views of the situation onto our kids and think they will see
what we see when often enough they don't - DS still thinks Pussy
Galore and Plenty O'Toole are just silly movie character names, it's
just us adults who have that added layer of double entendre on them.

--Deb