Joanne O'N.

I read but rarely post. But I think it is time that I do so. Recently, my son (6) and I were in
a restaurant with a friend. He wanted multiple plates of food, since each food was to be
on a different plate. I supported and assisted him with that. He also brought back
multiple forks, spoons and knives. At this point I noticed my new friend glancing at all of
this activity and I began to hear old tapes in my head like she thinks he has too much
silverware, the restaurant will not like this, now all of this silverware needs to be washed.
At the end of the meal, not thinking, when the waitress came over I picked up my plates
and scooped up the silverware from next to me on the booth seat. Retrospectively I I had
allowed anxiety to develop due to what I was imagining others thought about what was
going on with my son and then with me that I was not forcing him to stop this behavior. I
try to explain to him what people expect in public. (He frequently likes to pour slat and
pepper together, mix water in some other things in front of him on the table, etc. IN
genreal I delight in his creative exploration. But when out ion public if I feel that someone
else is watching, I begin to squirm. But to continue, after I had picked up the silverware,
he rightly became upset and went up to where the silverware was and began taking now
large handfuls of each utensil again. I was feeling embarrassed and out of control. I know
I am working and striving not to be in control as I want to honor his decisions even if they
are not mine. But I am having trouble when the behavior begins to have others turn and
stare and my trying to speak to him quietly about my regret of taking his silverware, and
that the silverware was to be used in the restaurant for multiple people, his behavior got
more insistent and seemed to grow larger. I am still so new. I know I am making a ton of
mistakes. I am open to all feedback and I would also appreciate the support of knowing
others have either been there or are also struggling with something similar. Joanne O'N.

jen mobley

as much as i would like to think that I don't care what others think of
me...I truly do to a certain extent. I know that my children like to do
certain things at home such as running in circles around the house and
making loud animal noises and such. However, having worked in a restaraunt
myself (many many times unfortunately) I can say this....waiters and
waitresses DESPISE having to clean up salt, pepper, packets of sugar,etc off
of a table. They also hate it when kids run around in a restaurant
unsupervised while the parents are totally oblivious to what their kids are
doing. I know that you're all new to this and trust me, I'm a mom.It's the
toughest job in the world. Do yourself a favor though and give your son some
structure. I'm a free spirit and believe in unschooling and the freedom to
learn but the behaviour in the restaurant is something that should be
avoided. Good luck.


>From: "Joanne O'N." <seagullcaller@...> Reply-To:
>[email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Silverware example
>Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 01:54:24 -0000
>
>I read but rarely post. But I think it is time that I do so. Recently, my
>son (6) and I were in
>a restaurant with a friend. He wanted multiple plates of food, since each
>food was to be
>on a different plate. I supported and assisted him with that. He also
>brought back
>multiple forks, spoons and knives. At this point I noticed my new friend
>glancing at all of
>this activity and I began to hear old tapes in my head like she thinks he
>has too much
>silverware, the restaurant will not like this, now all of this silverware
>needs to be washed.
>At the end of the meal, not thinking, when the waitress came over I picked
>up my plates
>and scooped up the silverware from next to me on the booth seat.
>Retrospectively I I had
>allowed anxiety to develop due to what I was imagining others thought about
>what was
>going on with my son and then with me that I was not forcing him to stop
>this behavior. I
>try to explain to him what people expect in public. (He frequently likes
>to pour slat and
>pepper together, mix water in some other things in front of him on the
>table, etc. IN
>genreal I delight in his creative exploration. But when out ion public if
>I feel that someone
>else is watching, I begin to squirm. But to continue, after I had picked
>up the silverware,
>he rightly became upset and went up to where the silverware was and began
>taking now
>large handfuls of each utensil again. I was feeling embarrassed and out of
>control. I know
>I am working and striving not to be in control as I want to honor his
>decisions even if they
>are not mine. But I am having trouble when the behavior begins to have
>others turn and
>stare and my trying to speak to him quietly about my regret of taking his
>silverware, and
>that the silverware was to be used in the restaurant for multiple people,
>his behavior got
>more insistent and seemed to grow larger. I am still so new. I know I am
>making a ton of
>mistakes. I am open to all feedback and I would also appreciate the
>support of knowing
>others have either been there or are also struggling with something
>similar. Joanne O'N.
>

_________________________________________________________________
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Julie

Take a deep breath- it is ok for your kids to do things within
reason that may bother you and others but IS okay. Sometimes I tell
my 4 yr old that certain things (talking about burping, farting) are
acceptable with our family but not in fornt of others. Other things
like wanting a plate for each food and silverwear is okay and if not
overboard than just shrug and give a quick explaination such as - he
does not want his food to touch and that includes the forks. Others
may not agree with you allowing him to do this but it seems
reasonable to him. hang in there. Julie

--- In [email protected], "Joanne O'N."
<seagullcaller@...> wrote:
>
> I read but rarely post. But I think it is time that I do so.
Recently, my son (6) and I were in
> a restaurant with a friend. He wanted multiple plates of food,
since each food was to be
> on a different plate. I supported and assisted him with that. He
also brought back
> multiple forks, spoons and knives. At this point I noticed my new
friend glancing at all of
> this activity and I began to hear old tapes in my head like she
thinks he has too much
> silverware, the restaurant will not like this, now all of this
silverware needs to be washed.
> At the end of the meal, not thinking, when the waitress came over
I picked up my plates
> and scooped up the silverware from next to me on the booth seat.
Retrospectively I I had
> allowed anxiety to develop due to what I was imagining others
thought about what was
> going on with my son and then with me that I was not forcing him
to stop this behavior. I
> try to explain to him what people expect in public. (He
frequently likes to pour slat and
> pepper together, mix water in some other things in front of him on
the table, etc. IN
> genreal I delight in his creative exploration. But when out ion
public if I feel that someone
> else is watching, I begin to squirm. But to continue, after I had
picked up the silverware,
> he rightly became upset and went up to where the silverware was
and began taking now
> large handfuls of each utensil again. I was feeling embarrassed
and out of control. I know
> I am working and striving not to be in control as I want to honor
his decisions even if they
> are not mine. But I am having trouble when the behavior begins to
have others turn and
> stare and my trying to speak to him quietly about my regret of
taking his silverware, and
> that the silverware was to be used in the restaurant for multiple
people, his behavior got
> more insistent and seemed to grow larger. I am still so new. I
know I am making a ton of
> mistakes. I am open to all feedback and I would also appreciate
the support of knowing
> others have either been there or are also struggling with
something similar. Joanne O'N.
>

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "jen mobley"
<jenpmobley@...> wrote:
>> having worked in a restaraunt
> myself (many many times unfortunately) I can say this....waiters
and
> waitresses DESPISE having to clean up salt, pepper, packets of
sugar,etc off
> of a table.

There are, however, ways to facilitate children's exploration in
ways that aren't a terrible inconvenience to others. One is to take
children to "family" restaurants, where a certain amount of kid-mess
is anticipated and/or expect to do a certain amount of clean-up at
the end of the meal. And tip well. Buffet-style resaurants would be
a good option for the child in the OP - he can take as many
plates/silverware as he needs without going into "employee space".

> They also hate it when kids run around in a restaurant
> unsupervised while the parents are totally oblivious to what their
kids are
> doing.

Unschooling isn't about being "totally oblivious to what...kids are
doing," though. Its about being engaged with and responsive to our
childrens' needs and passions. I always expect to do a certain
amount of exploring at a restaurant *with* my younger child. That
way I can help her stay out of the way of employees, while answering
her questions and pointing out items of interest.

On the few occasions we've gone to fancier restaurants with
relatives we've called ahead and explained that we'll be dining with
a young child - do they have a more secluded table, out of the flow
of traffic so we can bring a few toys to keep her occupied?
Restaurants meals can be dull for children, so being proactive helps
things go more smoothly for everyone (kid, parents, staff).

> Do yourself a favor though and give your son some
> structure.

The good news with unschooling is that chaos and structure are not
the only options. I've found it most helpful, wrt finding other
options, to change my expectations about resaurant eating. Its not
going to be the same with a younger child as it is with a group of
adults. *I'm* not going to be able to kick back and let someone else
do all the work - I'll be helping my kid understand the environment,
an understanding that includes the needs of the wait-staff.

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Joanne O'N."
<seagullcaller@...> wrote:
>IN
> genreal I delight in his creative exploration. But when out ion
public if I feel that someone
> else is watching, I begin to squirm.

I know the feeling. I've *mostly* gotten over it in public, but this
last fall we had some long-term houseguests and I felt like I was
parenting under a microscope. Yuk. It helps *me* to focus as much as
I possibly can on my kids and helping them get their needs met. It
also helps me to think ahead and try not to put my kids (and
myself!) in situations that are too difficult for them to handle.

Does your ds enjoy going to restaurants in general? If so, you might
want to take him out to eat without any company a few times so you
can really focus on his needs without the distraction of trying to
socialize with another adult. If he's not a fan of restaurants, but
you still want to eat out from time to time, consider getting him
something to eat before you go and bringing some books and toys for
him to play with while the adults hang out.

> At this point I noticed my new friend glancing at all of
> this activity and I began to hear old tapes in my head

It might help to think of some general, positive statements to make
at times like this, like: "He's so curious about everything!" or "He
comes up with such interesting projects!" I find it really helpful
to make comments like this in a bright, cheerful tone. That helps
*me* re-focus on my child in a positive manner, while inviting my
friend or relative to to share my joy and enthusiasm.

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)

Joanne O'N.

I know that you're all new to this and trust me, I'm a mom.It's the
> toughest job in the world. Do yourself a favor though and give your son some
> structure.

I am curious, from what I wrote, what kind of structure did you have in mind? Joanne O'N.

marji

At 21:54 5/4/2007, you wrote:
> I am open to all feedback and I would also appreciate the support
> of knowing
>others have either been there or are also struggling with something similar.

One of the most helpful things I have read (was it Joyce maybe or
Sandra?) was to think of your kid as a guest whom you are hosting
from a completely different culture. So, when you and your "guest"
engage in activities that are fairly foreign to him or her, a
kindness would be to help the guest understand what to do or what not
to do so that the guest can get the most enjoyment from the activity
and not feel terribly out of place or awkward. I know if I were
visiting a place where I was completely unfamiliar with the social
norms and customs, I'd want someone tugging my coat and letting me
know if what I was doing was cool or not.

So, when you take your kids to a restaurant, it would be most helpful
of you to help them understand what the right thing to do in that
environment is. And, if it's a kid who'd really not be up to that
environment, don't go there yet.

My son, who is now 12, is now conscious of wanting to do the right
thing in the right place. That's what *he* wants. It's my job as
his partner to help him get there (and not by shaming him, but by
gently helping understand what's okay and what's not okay--as I would
want someone to do for me). When he was littler and doing the right
thing wasn't really so important to him, we just stayed away from
places where he couldn't be himself!

I hope that's helpful!

~Marji


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

caradove

--- In [email protected], "Joanne O'N."
<seagullcaller@...> wrote:
>
He wanted multiple plates of food, since each food was to be
> on a different plate. I supported and assisted him with that. He
also brought back
> multiple forks, spoons and knives.

If your son particularly likes his foods separate then try the
stainless steel plates with compaartments for indian style meals where
there are a lot of different preparations, that way if you brought the
plate, the extra silverware would be all the extra he needed!
I have seen them for sale at restaurant supply stores and a friend has
plastic ones, but not as fancy as a big shiny one. There are about six
sections on each plate.
Cara

Sylvia Toyama

However, having worked in a restaurant myself (many many times unfortunately) I can say this....waiters and
waitresses DESPISE having to clean up salt, pepper, packets of
sugar,etc off of a table.

****
I'm coming in late, but who leaves the salt/pepper/sugar mess for a waitress to clean up anyway?

Just because I went out to a restaurant doesn't mean I can leave a mess behind. If/when my kids (or I) make a mess of a table, I clean it up before we leave.

I have, tho, seen those Moms at McD's or some other such place, who leave the table a mess, food on the floor, etc. McD's doesn't have a busboy or waiter -- the clean up falls to some poor employee who draws 'lobby' duty.

Sylvia



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Deb Lewis

***I was feeling embarrassed and out of
control. I know I am working and striving not to be in control as I want to
honor his decisions
even if they are not mine.***

There's a little cafe in my town where Dylan could have used multiple dishes
or otherwise played at and around our table, and the owner and patrons would
have been ok with that and there are places where that wouldn't be ok.
It's up to you to understand the difference and to understand your child's
level of acceptance and understanding of the needs and rights of others, and
to not take him to places where he's not ready to be yet.

I didn't get any sense of the kind of restaurant you were in. Was it a
friendly local place where they know you and your child and where his use of
multiple plates and flatware was fine with the owners and not disturbing the
other customers? How many plates did he have? Three might be fine in
some places and not fine in others. Six is probably not fine anywhere but
home. Were you there at their busiest time or during a lull? .

There's not an unschooling rule that says all kids should get to do whatever
they want, anywhere they want, all the time. It might be fine at home to
stack up books and knock them down but it's not fine at the library. It
might be fine at home to sing really loud but it's not fine in a movie
theater. Mom's need to be aware of what their kids need, what is expected
in social situations and then not put a kid in a situation where he can't
willingly and happily meet the expectation.

It will be better for him if he knows some of the things we like to do (all
of us!) are not appropriate for every venue. And if he's not quite ready
yet to understand that, then have your friends over to your house for coffee
and cake, where your son can happily use however many dishes he likes, and
you can poke your friend with a fork if she gets uppity. <g>

Deb Lewis

Debra Rossing

My DS loves going to Cracker Barrel restaurants specifically because he
can order the 4 sides combo and have a whole assortment of plates and
bowls, a "Feast".

I can offer {{hugs}} and suggest that next time the thoughts start
crowding in, take a slow, deep breath and kiss your son's head (if
that's usually okay with him). Maybe even bring it out into the open,
instead of trying to hide it e.g. "Wow (son), looks like you've got
everything organized - a set of utensils for each plate so you can keep
things separate" I've found that once I've verbalized something like
this, it turns off the tapes that start spinning in my head AND it makes
it clear to whomever might be nearby enough to see it that it has my
explicit approval/acceptance KWIM? Defuses a lot of potential "input"
from others when it's been made clear that it's OK with me, has my
support (even if I'm still a little uncomfortable with it). Later on,
somewhere safe (home, car, etc) and calm (and without others around), I
might discuss things like recycling, resources, extra work for others
and see what kinds of things we can come up with - for instance, my DS
likes to have a separate fork for his potatoes and his dessert (or
whatever) - BUT he's okay with it if I simply wipe it off thoroughly in
between one and the other. IF it doesn't come clean enough (some things
are just really sticky) THEN we'll get another fork. His need to have
clean/different utensils is honored and we use the minimum utensils most
of the time.

Deb

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Debra Rossing

Agreed, that if salt, pepper, etc have been played with it should get
cleaned up to make the staff's jobs easier. That does not mean that it
cannot happen, what it means is that once the play is done, clean up
happens (we usually do it while waiting for the check to arrive), just
as it would at our own table at home. Spilled/poured salt, pepper, etc
are pushed onto a plate or what-have-you so that the table surface is
reasonably tidied (there'll always be little crumbs and bits but that's
within normal operating parameters). Most of the time, for that matter,
we stack the plates and silverware and all and move it toward the
easiest to reach location on the table. My DH (not a typo, that'd be my
hubby) likes to make ice cubes stick to plates with salt - but we'll
also either make that plate the top plate or we'll unstick it before we
leave so that there's little chance of it causing a stack of plates to
tumble.

Deb

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are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
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