Ren Allen

This was sent to me today, with a request to post anonymously:
Ren
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


http://love2bhomeschoolerscommentary.blogspot.com/

This blog is from an unschooler who has lived the life and is now
bashing unschooling. What do people think about the points she makes
here? There are no comments posted yet, so I don't get the "other
side" of this. It kind of makes me feel a bit defensive and or
misguided to read what she has here. Is she really not seeing the
whole picture???

Anon

Ren Allen

I left a nice long comment at her blog. argh to the 10th power....but
whatever.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com


--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> This was sent to me today, with a request to post anonymously:
> Ren
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> http://love2bhomeschoolerscommentary.blogspot.com/
>
> This blog is from an unschooler who has lived the life and is now
> bashing unschooling. What do people think about the points she makes
> here? There are no comments posted yet, so I don't get the "other
> side" of this. It kind of makes me feel a bit defensive and or
> misguided to read what she has here. Is she really not seeing the
> whole picture???
>
> Anon
>

Joanne

Great reply Ren! You said it all....and beautifully.

~ Joanne ~
Add your voice ~ Unschooling Voices
http://tinyurl.com/26pt6x






--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
>
> I left a nice long comment at her blog. argh to the 10th
power....but
> whatever.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
> <starsuncloud@> wrote:
> >
> > This was sent to me today, with a request to post anonymously:
> > Ren
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> > http://love2bhomeschoolerscommentary.blogspot.com/
> >
> > This blog is from an unschooler who has lived the life and is now
> > bashing unschooling. What do people think about the points she
makes
> > here? There are no comments posted yet, so I don't get
the "other
> > side" of this. It kind of makes me feel a bit defensive and or
> > misguided to read what she has here. Is she really not seeing
the
> > whole picture???
> >
> > Anon
> >
>

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: starsuncloud@...


http://love2bhomeschoolerscommentary.blogspot.com/

This blog is from an unschooler who has lived the life and is now
bashing unschooling. What do people think about the points she makes
here? There are no comments posted yet, so I don't get the "other
side" of this. It kind of makes me feel a bit defensive and or
misguided to read what she has here. Is she really not seeing the
whole picture???
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Yikes!!

This is w hat I've pulled from her blog, with my responses:



Kids who are radical unschoolers watch whatever they want, and as much
as they want on TV, all the time.

-=-=-=-

Add yet Duncan had two other unschooled boys (11 years old) here all
day who were outside role-playing now for 9 hours---only stopping to
est when I took food out. Complete freedom to watch TV all day or play
video games all day---yet they were outside role-playing. Go figure.

-=-=-=-=-=-

They spend as much time as they want on the computer.

-=-=-=-=-

Yep---and yet there they were in the yard.

-=-=-=-=-=-

They eat whatever they want all the time.

-=-=-=-

Yep---but they had panini sandwiches for lunch; a monkey platter with
carrots & cukes with hummus, crackers & cheese, sliced ham, and ants on
a log for snack; and lasagne for supper. Cupckes are sitting and
sitting, and the candy bowl is full.

-=-=-=-=-=-

They are not required to contribute to the running of the household
unless they want to.

-=-=-=-=-

And yet all three helped move garbage to the curb without being asked.

-=-=-=-=-=-

They don't even have to pick up their toys off the livingroom floor
unless they feel like it.

-=-=-=-

And yet they DO---happily and sweetly!

-=-=-=-=-=-


They can go to bed whenever they want.

-=-=-=-

And are quiet while others sleep, and they sleep until rested.

-=-=-=-=-=-

And from what I read, they also have the right to refuse when their
grandmother, who needs a walker to get around, asks them to get her
something from another room.

-=-=-=-=-

They *can* but they DON'T. She can't seem to wrap her head around all
her roadblocks. She thinks they won't do *any* of these things if they
have a choice. Mine CHOOSE to do these things because they *want* to.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I expect my children to eat the nutritious foods I provide for them. I
expect them to stop watching TV and playing computer games when they
start to ignore other things that they have previously enjoyed doing. I
expect them to do their share of the household chores, since I'm not a
slave. I expect them to go to bed at an hour which will assure they get
enough rest. And I certainly expect them to respect not only their
elders, but all other people, simply by virtue of the fact that we all
share the same planet.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I expect all that too, but mine do it out of respect and trust and
generosity.

-=-=-=-=-=-

And for all this, I "have no right" to call myself an unschooler. Well,
if that's what being an unschooler means, then I don't want to! So
these days I call us "self-directed learners", hoping that it conveys
what we are about without the negative connotation that radical
unschoolers have given the word "unschoolers", to pretty much everyone
who is not one.

-=-=-=-=-=

GOOD. Because I don't want her saying she's an unschooler if she can't
see through her Dr Phil/John Rosemond-colored glasses.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I have to admit that I also avoid associating with radicals since
these kids, in my experience, do not have the respect for others that I
expect from my children.

-=-=-=-=-=-

MY children have more respect in their little fingers,.....

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

And one of the good things about homeschooling is that I can (somewhat)
control the time frame in which my kids are exposed to different things.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Lalalalalalalalal...she's not listening....Lalalalalalalalala

"Control" is the key word, guys!

<g>


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org









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Su Penn

On Apr 26, 2007, at 9:04 PM, kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

> They don't even have to pick up their toys off the livingroom floor
> unless they feel like it.
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> And yet they DO---happily and sweetly!

One day, when I was having kind of a tense cranky day, I tripped over
a bin of Legos in the living room and they spilled everywhere. I
thought my head would explode--it was one of those days when you
react to some spilled Legos as if the house is burning down, kwim? I
was on my way to do something that couldn't wait--pee urgently,
maybe?--so I didn't stop to pick them up right away. A few minutes
later, as I came back into the room, I heard my 5-year-old saying,
"If we pick these up, it will really help Mama, even though she's the
one who spilled them." And there were my 5yo and my 2yo, picking up
the Legos. They did a great job, too. I thanked them and said, "I was
having a cranky day, and it really did help that you picked them up
for me." And they hugged me.

They don't pick up their toys every day. A lot of times my partner
and I do it. But moments like that--when they do it on their own, for
their own reasons, or to be kind to me--make the freedom we've given
them worth it. If kids are obedient all the time from fear of
punishment, how possible is it for them to offer an amazing gift like
that? If I think they have a duty to pick up the toys all the time,
how possible is it for me to receive a gift like that?

I have a lot of questions now that I'm an unschooler. Questions like,
"How do they ever know what 'enough' feels like if they're only ever
allowed four ounces of juice or an hour of TV at a time? If I'm
imposing rules all the time, I never get to see that my kids can be
thoughtful, independent, creative, problem-solving, and sweet. If I
force vegetables, I never get to see that sometimes my kids will eat
nothing but lima beans for dinner because the lima beans taste so
good to them (and other days, nothing but bread or nothing but meat,
but you take my point).

Su

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: supenn@...

If I force vegetables, I never get to see that sometimes my kids will
eat
nothing but lima beans for dinner because the lima beans taste so
good to them (and other days, nothing but bread or nothing but meat,
but you take my point).

-=--=-=-

Last spring, we were on a road trip (Ben and a friend, Stewart, cycled
the Natchez Trace while the boys and I SAGGed in the minivan). We
stopped at a Cracker Barrel for lunch on the way home after the ride.
Ben and I ordered sloppy hamburgers while Cameron ordered a Cobb salad
and Duncan ordered the vegetable plate. The irony wasn't lost on us! <G>

Both LOVE lima beans and spinach and collards and raw fish---typically
kid-unfriendly foods. But they've never been forced to eat anything
they found yucky. We like many different foods, and we just offer LOTS
of different choices all the time.

Having babysat for many children who were *very* picky eaters, I
decided early I was NOT going to force-feed my children. Never had a
problem. Go figure!

(Nice talking with you today, Su!)

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


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Melissa

Yes, Ren, that was a wonderful response. I am nearly ashamed to admit that not much more
than two years ago I was right there as well. I'm not quite ashamed though, because we've
allowed ourselves to be brainwashed by the pure amount of nonsense spouted by so-called
professionals and old-wives tales coming from our grannies.

I don't even consider myself radical. I'm still losing it too often to do so, but everything she
said I had a response "She should spend a day at MY house" I have great kids, I have kids that
would choose to help. I have kids who decline to help and it is not one bit different than my
husband or myself saying, in a minute, or not right now. But somehow our little guys are
supposed to be held to a higher standard? Because of their age? Ridiculous!

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
>
> I left a nice long comment at her blog. argh to the 10th power....but
> whatever.
>

Melissa

Forgot to say, she hasn't lived the life! If she had given it a chance, then she would have
seen all the nonsense spouting from her mouth. Because I *have* lived the life, and in less
than two years, seen our family grow and thrive from radical unschooling (or at least our
consistent striving to do so)
She really is not seeing the whole picture. Her perspective is one in which children are
required to be minions, and that learning without structure is enough, but living without
limits is not possible. I don't feel defensive, whenever I read something like that, I
remember what Sandra Dodd says in response to these types of rants..."We're not selling
it!" No one has to buy it, we're not suffereing by people not getting it, but they surely are.
M
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>homeschoolerscommentary.blogspot.com/
>
> This blog is from an unschooler who has lived the life and is now
> bashing unschooling. What do people think about the points she makes
> here? There are no comments posted yet, so I don't get the "other
> side" of this. It kind of makes me feel a bit defensive and or
> misguided to read what she has here. Is she really not seeing the
> whole picture???
>
> Anon
>

Deb Lewis

***What do people think about the points she makes
here? ***


She writes that she trusts her kids and she writes that she can't trust
them. (they might enslave her, they might eat too much, they might not
sleep, etc.)
I don't think anyone has to worry much about her blog. From her writing she
clearly never understood unschooling. She seems defensive, so I'm guessing
she had her beliefs challenged on one of the lists and felt hurt by that.

So, she really makes no point. She revealed she didn't meet the example of
radical unschooler she saw at some of the lists and now she's saying "Oh,
yeah, well, I didn't want to be a radical unschooler anyway. So there. "

She'll get over it and move on.

Deb Lewis

Vickisue Gray

I, too, couldn't resist commenting even though I don't have your experience.
(We've only been unschooling since Oct, 2006, lol) I have found my son
is learning far more by unschooling then any of the tried and true methods
public school, gift programs and private schools, toot.
Why would I slow him down?

Vicki

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Debra Rossing

>Both LOVE lima beans and spinach and collards and raw fish

Hey Kelly - we're having sushi at our house tomorrow night (Saturday
April 28) - y'all wanna fly to CT for the day? LOL! Joshua (DS - he'll
be 9 in June) has been looking forward to this sushi party (we're making
it ourselves, we've got guests coming too!) for weeks. Last time we went
out for sushi, he was curious about Rick's (DH's) sashimi plate so he
tried some and decided he liked it that way too, without the sushi rice.

Deb

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: debra.rossing@...

>Both LOVE lima beans and spinach and collards and raw fish

Hey Kelly - we're having sushi at our house tomorrow night (Saturday
April 28) - y'all wanna fly to CT for the day? LOL! Joshua (DS - he'll
be 9 in June) has been looking forward to this sushi party (we're making
it ourselves, we've got guests coming too!) for weeks. Last time we went
out for sushi, he was curious about Rick's (DH's) sashimi plate so he
tried some and decided he liked it that way too, without the sushi rice.

-=-=-

Careful! The way I've been "jetsetting" lately may find me at your
doorstep! <G>

We've done a lot of sushi suppers. I love to have a lot of kids over
who are wary of such foods. When they get to make it themselves,
they're more likely to actually eat it! Plus, they can add what appeals
to them in whatever amounts they find appetizing.

Ren's son Trevor is a "meat & potatoes" kind of guy, and Ren doubted
he'd eat it. He made several maki rolls AND ate them! <G>

Ren made us some incredible spring rolls that I've since been craving.
Maybe we need another trip to the market....

And the trips to the Asian markets are a hoot---so many things we've
never seen! And Duncan and his crowd love to wander the candy aisles
looking for foods they've seen in anime shows. In fact, the other day
we picked up a special vegetable dumpling he's been wanting. Today's
lunch!


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


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Deb

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>>
> Careful! The way I've been "jetsetting" lately may find me at your
> doorstep! <G>

I'd be jumping up and down happy if you showed up at the doorstep.
We're about 45 minutes from the main airport (Bradley International -
it shows up as Hartford, CT but is actually about 15-20 minutes of
that fair (not) city). We're getting "rolling" around 5

--Deb

Lisa

I had to laugh about the sushi posts... my 12 yr old daughter(special
needs.. autism spectrum) just spent a week in the hospital after
scoliosis surgery.. for several days she was on IV fluids and then a
liquid diet. On the "switchover" day the surgeon came in and asked
her if she was hungry...she said yeah a little... he then asked what
she would like to eat...boy was he shocked to hear her say "sushi"!!!
He said he was sure that was the first time he had heard that from a
kid! She even made sushi with her therapist this past year while
they worked on some of her life skills by learning to cook and then
made a cookbook. I think the therapist also was surprised that she
liked sushi.
Lisa B (who is glad to be at home with her child and away from the
controlling hospital environment!!! UGH!)

Debra Rossing

That is GREAT! I love it. I know we've become "noticeable" at the sushi
place we like because we'd often sit right at the sushi bar and there
are few people under 18 sitting there and eating sushi (and DS has just
decided he likes sashimi as well, just leave out the wasabi "killer
playdough" lol) There's nothing more fun than food you can play with -
and making sushi is just that.

For my next project, I'm contemplating how to make soap sushi - mixing
up different colors of the soap base and making sheets that I can cut
and form together to make soaps that look like nigiri or California
rolls or whatever. Still not expert enough for it yet, though, need more
practice with mixed forms.

Deb

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Erica Iwamura

omg! If you do get some made please let me know! My MIL is from Tokyo and
would would love that! I'll buy some from you.

Erica

On 4/30/07, Debra Rossing <debra.rossing@...> wrote:
>
> That is GREAT! I love it. I know we've become "noticeable" at the sushi
> place we like because we'd often sit right at the sushi bar and there
> are few people under 18 sitting there and eating sushi (and DS has just
> decided he likes sashimi as well, just leave out the wasabi "killer
> playdough" lol) There's nothing more fun than food you can play with -
> and making sushi is just that.
>
> For my next project, I'm contemplating how to make soap sushi - mixing
> up different colors of the soap base and making sheets that I can cut
> and form together to make soaps that look like nigiri or California
> rolls or whatever. Still not expert enough for it yet, though, need more
> practice with mixed forms.
>
> Deb
>
> **********************************************************************
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> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> the system manager.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
> MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
>
> CNC Software, Inc.
> www.mastercam.com
> **********************************************************************
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
"Play is the highest form of research." - Albert Einstein


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb

Well, if I do figure it out and it comes out even halfway decent,
I'll let you know. Obviously, it will NOT be fish-scented.LOL DH and
I were discussing it, and he has some interesting ideas about how to
go about it. Plus, I've got a beginner book thing on soap making
that shows/explains how to make layered soaps which will likely come
in handy in getting the various layers to stay together.

--Deb

--- In [email protected], "Erica Iwamura"
<hakujin777@...> wrote:
>
> omg! If you do get some made please let me know! My MIL is from
>Tokyo and
> would would love that! I'll buy some from you.
>
> Erica
>
> >
> > For my next project, I'm contemplating how to make soap sushi -
>mixing
> > up different colors of the soap base and making sheets that I
>can cut
> > and form together to make soaps that look like nigiri or
>California
> > rolls or whatever. Still not expert enough for it yet, though,
>need more
> > practice with mixed forms.
> >
> > Deb
> >