Ren Allen

I have been asked to post this anonymously for a member.
Ren

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I was hoping to get input from some more established unschoolers, some
of the *radical* gals about this situation. it's been ongoing for
some time, and I'm starting to wonder
where the breakdown is....

We have a local unschooling group that the kids have really enjoyed.
We've done some wonderful trips and gatherings, and am looking
forward to some more. Having said that,
there have been a few incidents that leave me scratching my head. One
was at a beach playdate, where an older child was verbally abusing
some of the toddlers, calling them names, pushing them around, really
without provocation. When it was brought up kindly that there was a
problem, the mom left huffily.

A second was at a museum, where a preschool aged child was
hitting/slapping/ the youngers (one year, two years
old) in an attempt to get the toys he wanted. In all situations, i was
present and did what I would do with my older children, some modeling,
empathy, redirection. "Wow, you really want that toy! Would you like
to play with this one, she's already playing with that one!"
or "Why don't you ask for a trade, you can offer her this one, and
maybe she'll share."

She very nearly always got what she wanted out of the deal. Finally
after the second gut punch to a baby, I said "It is NOT okay to hit.
You may use words to ask for what you want." When I
moved the baby to protect it, *I* was the next one hit. The mom was
standing right there and told her that what she was doing was okay,
and I got an evil look from BOTH of them.

Where in unschooling does it say that this is okay? Have I missed
something? It seems to me as I was reading John Holt that he said it
was just as off to be a 'child-worshiper', believing they could do no
wrong, as it was to be a 'child-manager', believing they could do no
right without us.

Are we responsible for modeling behavior that is fair to everyone in
a situation? Is it unfair to expect safety for all children, not just
those who can express their needs by hurting others verbally or
physically? My daughter is starting to really dislike these kids, and
is starting to dislike our trips. Surely we aren't the only family on
here facing this issue. Thanks all.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 19, 2007, at 1:01 AM, Ren Allen wrote:

> Where in unschooling does it say that this is okay?

No where.

I think people get blinkered by the idea of letting children choose
what they want and that eventually, somehow, they'll pick up social
niceties in due course.

But kids *also* want to get along with others. Even if they can't
articulate it, they don't want other people to dislike them! We owe
it to them -- and owe it to other people! -- to help them not hurt
others.

> "It is NOT okay to hit.
> You may use words to ask for what you want."

It's quite possible she can't control herself yet. She may know it's
not okay -- though from her mother's reaction maybe not! -- but she
1) can't control the urge to hit or 2) doesn't have the skills yet to
try another way.

I think it's helpful to do as you did: point out the principle and
move onto something that will help them get what they want. "That's
not okay. Try this instead." But knowing what they can't do isn't
enough to stop them from doing it ;-) It takes time. It takes adults
willing to say "No, not acceptable." It takes adults patient enough
and willing to help them with other techniques that *are* acceptable.

As for the huffy moms, I have no clue what to suggest!

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~As for the huffy moms, I have no clue what to suggest!~~

Same here.

I'm really baffled as to why a mother would stand by while her child
was having difficulties in any social situation...especially at such a
young age. They NEED mindful adults to help them navigate those kind
of interactions!

If my child was even ACTING like they were going to harm a baby in any
way, I'd be right there next to them. Allowing your child to hurt
other people has absolutely nothing to do with unschooling. It sounds
like parents that have somehow turned "interest led" into "do whatever
you want". Yuck.

If a young child is showing any signs of having trouble interacting
with other children, it's really great if a parent can get very close,
listen and remove the child if they are going to hit or hurt other
people. I'm really sorry you're having such difficulties with other
unschoolers. It's very sad to me that anyone would get in a huff when
a baby was being protected from harm.

I wouldn't have any problem telling the mother "your child is hurting
the baby, could you please help me with this?"

Sounds like a lack of parenting to me.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Nance Confer

unschoolingbasicsWhere in unschooling does it say that this is okay?
***
No where, I would hope. You are right and she is wrong and now what are you going to do about it? Meet with other group members and plan an intervention?

Nance


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

> it's been ongoing for
> some time, and I'm starting to wonder
> where the breakdown is....

Unschooling frequently gets equated with the idea of "independent
learning" and I think that's where people get confused. Independence
is a big-time cultural value, and for young kids,
especially, "promoting independence" is considered pretty important.
Some unschoolers get kind of stuck on the whole independence thing,
thinking it means we shouldn't help our kids figure out the world.
Learning in freedom becomes equated with hands off parenting.

That being said, being an unschooler, and even understanding that
kids need help figuring out the world, doesn't automatically make
someone the world's most skillful parent. And being a reasonably
skillful parent of one's own kids doesn't necessarily mean one
handles group social situations involving kid-disputes very
successfully.

> at a beach playdate, where an older child was verbally abusing
> some of the toddlers, calling them names, pushing them around,
really
> without provocation. When it was brought up kindly that there was a
> problem, the mom left huffily.

This struck a chord with me - was the mom confronted *after* this
happened or did someone call mom's attention to the problem while it
was happening? Mo's 5.5 and usually plays really well at public
playgrounds, so I often hang out with the other moms and chat on
homeschool group days. The vast majority of the time, that's fine,
and I'll either notice or someone will tell me if there's a problem
that I need to address. Sometimes its "hey our kids are throwing
sand at each other, you wanna go, or shall I?" and sometimes its "is
that Morgan?" and off I go.

There was one time when a mom told me, after the fact, that Mo had
hit her dd. I appologised to the mom and the girl and made sure the
girl was okay, but mom and kid glared at me as though there
was "more" that they expected. I drifted away, feeling as though I
was expected to go beat or yell at my kid, even though I knew the
family to be unschoolers. When I asked Morgan about the incident
later, she didn't know what I was talking about. I keep a closer eye
on Mo when that family comes to playgroups, though. The kids are
dainty, and Mo's really robust, so its a good idea anyway.

> A second was at a museum, where a preschool aged child was
> hitting/slapping/ the youngers (one year, two years
> old) in an attempt to get the toys he wanted. In all situations, i
was
> present and did what I would do with my older children,

A preschool aged child would be three or four, I assume. Not the
most socially-ept of ages. Where were the babies moms? Were you left
in charge of the little ones so moms could take older siblings to
another area? Again, this sounds like a case of not enough parental
involvement - not *just* a matter of one kid being too rough.

> She very nearly always got what she wanted out of the deal. Finally
> after the second gut punch to a baby, I said "It is NOT okay to
hit.
> You may use words to ask for what you want." When I
> moved the baby to protect it, *I* was the next one hit. The mom was
> standing right there and told her that what she was doing was okay,
> and I got an evil look from BOTH of them.

On the one hand, protecting the babies was a priority, but OTOH,
we've had some pretty involved discussions on this board about
saying things like "its not okay to hit" - there are some
differences of opinion amongst unschoolers. It might be better to
avoid the implied judgement and say "OW! That hurts!" to a child who
is hitting. Some unschoolers are also offended by comments such
as "use words" especially to younger children and/or children who
aren't naturally verbal.

If you are interested in hanging out with this family again, it
would be a good idea to chat with mom and find out how *she* would
handle this sort of situation. What are *her* expectations and
concerns? It may be that she felt her child was being belittled
or "forced to share" and your specific language reinforced that
somehow.

Getting back to the whole "independence = hands off parenting"
thing, I have met two unschoolers irl who are very defensive of
their childrens' "right" to hit other people. One I've only
encountered in adult situations, but the other staunchly defended
her son's right to insult and hit other kids as a matter of "free
expression". Neither of these moms has a social network of other
unschooling families, though, which I think could be a big factor.

Unfortunately, those two families were my first experiences
with "unschooling". Yikes.

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Melissa Bowles

Interesting.... I was talking with a unschooling/homeschooling mom friend of
mine about these situations.
My instant reaction to this and really has been something I think of often
is that in adult life (which is what we are trying to create here right?
Good, happy healthy adults???) is that that is simply unacceptable and we
all know it as also illegal!
Isnt called battery? Abuse?
Now I know that is harsh and drastic but I just think that in adult life my
two girls will not be able to hit another person and it is my job now as mom
to make sure that that doesn't happen. I expect other parents to do the same
because my daughters have to live with your kids... Have to play with your
kids etc etc....
I have read the RIE teachings of Magda Gerber (I have one of her books and
havent read it front to back is what I am saying) and she simply states that
you don't intervene until physical harm is an issue or looks to be like it
will be one. I agree.
This isnt a free for all in this world and as parents we have to be the
first ones to make sure out kids understand what is correct in life. Hitting
is not correct- you will get in trouble. I believe it is out duty.
Now I don't intervene in squabbles, you took my toy away and sharing etc-
Unless it escalates to where you know your child will hit. I have an almost
two year old who at this time in her life does get that frustrated, she has
not hit a person but will throw the toy... My 4 yo is very passive and would
give the toy away and walk away before anything was an issue.
You stated the word "safety". And simply put- allowing your child to hit
another is unsafe...
Keep us updated!! :)

katharinewise

I realize that this post is in response to situations where a mother
was actually defending her child's "right" to hit, but it brings up a
semantic question that always bothers me.

Generally in our culture when people say some behavior is
"unacceptable" or "not allowed" or "not tolerated", they mean that a
significant punishment (jail for adults, time-out, sent to room,
removal from group activity in an explicitly punitive way, grounding,
or spanking for children) will follow if/when it occurs -- which
suggests to me that it actually *is* allowed to happen, just punished
afterward. I don't think that's what's meant here?

Katharine

--- In [email protected], Melissa Bowles
<honeybee@...> wrote:

My instant reaction to this and really has been something I think of
often is that in adult life (which is what we are trying to create
here right? Good, happy healthy adults???) is that that is simply
unacceptable and we all know it as also illegal!<snip>
And simply put- allowing your child to hit another is unsafe...

Meredith

--- In [email protected], Melissa Bowles
<honeybee@...> wrote:
>> simply put- allowing your child to hit
> another is unsafe...

I know this is in reference to an older/larger child hitting a
younger/smaller child to get a toy, but I have to admit, I'm one of
those folks I metioned who isn't comfortable with blanket statements
like the above. Its entirely situational.

Yesterday we had one of our big skatepark days - its over an hour's
drive, so we tend to make a day of it. There's a great playground
right next to the skatepark, so Morgan and I hang out there while
Ray skates. As luck would have it, Ray fell about an hour after we
got there, and decided he was too battered to keep skating - nothing
serious, he just didn't want to fall any more that day. Mo wasn't
anywhere near done playing, though, so he hung out and another
unschooling mom from our regular playgroup showed up about the same
time with a dd about Mo's age. Just setting the scene, here.

Anyway, this other girl is right about Mo's speed in terms of
phyiscallity - think Mac truck in a skirt and pigtails. Now imagine
two of them. They invented a game that involved chasing Ray all over
the playground, tackling him, hitting him, throwing things at him -
he thought it was lots of fun. And less painful than falling of his
skateboard, although he did put his pads back on. This kind of
consensual rough play is normal for Rayan, as much as it is for
Morgan. *He* is big enough now that he'll rough-house with adults -
real grown men wrestling, and although they're still going easy on
him, this is relative.

So to say hitting is unsafe or unacceptable doesn't fly with my
kids. We have to talk about different bodies and personalities and
consent and ways to say no and hear no from others. They're both
great about understanding that younger kids need to be handled a bit
more gently, but Mo's still sometimes baffled when she encounters a
kid her age or older who doesn't like to play rough, so I try to
keep an eye out for new situations.

> I have an almost
> two year old who at this time in her life does get that
frustrated, she has
> not hit a person but will throw the toy... My 4 yo is very passive
and would
> give the toy away and walk away before anything was an issue.

You know a lot of that is temperament, though, right? Some kids are
naturally more easy going, more accomodating, more, as you say,
passive. Its not a result of better parenting. Some kids absolutely
do need more help knowing *when* its not okay to hit someone or help
with impulse control. I have certainly met parents who don't help
their kids figure these things out and "blame the victim" for not
fighting back, and I'm not advocating that in the least.

What I am trying to say is that to really physical kids, saying "its
not okay to hit" is pure bs. It *is* okay to hit sometimes, for
protection or for fun. Saying something like "I/he didn't like
that", "That hurt", "I don't like to be hit" all convey more
information - information physical kids really need to understand
the world.

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Meredith

--- In [email protected], Melissa Bowles
<honeybee@...> wrote:
>> she simply states that
> you don't intervene until physical harm is an issue or looks to be
like it
> will be one.

I'm not sure that I agree with this, but I think the key word may
be "intervene". I haven't read the book you mentioned, but I suspect
that by "intervene" the author is thinking in terms of an adult
stepping in and resolving the situation *for* the kids in some
authoritiarian manner - enforced sharing or whatever.

Its possible to help kids resolve differences without it being a
matter of intervention in that sense. I can't think how many times
I've said "I thing X is saying..." and had the other child respond
positively. Its not always that simple, but often they just need
help communicating - heck, I've done it with adults, too. I'm not
always *right* (not being Kelly!) but sometimes having a different
perspective on the table can shift the focus from antagonism to
problem-solving.

> Now I don't intervene in squabbles, you took my toy away and
>sharing etc-

That word again.... I *do* help my kids try to problem solve these
kinds of situations *if* they are open to my assistance. Morgan
doesn't always want my help if she's playing with her longtime pal,
Savannah, for example, and Sv's mom and I have worked out a way for
all of us to communicate and know when parental assistance is
needed. Newer friends, Mo is more likely to welcome a bit of input
from mom.

Maybe its bc I have a child who *does* hit when she's frustrated.
Not only do I want her to resolve her difficulties before she gets
to the punch-throwing stage, I can see that its better all 'round if
the issue is resolved *well* before then, so everyone stays happy
and wants to keep playing and being friends.

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Ren Allen

~~- which
suggests to me that it actually *is* allowed to happen, just punished
afterward. I don't think that's what's meant here?~~

I took "unnacceptable" to mean that it isn't acceptable for the mother
to stand by while her child harmed another child. Hitting or harming
another human being isn't ok in our house either. Yet we don't punish.

I do judge physical harm as an "unacceptable" method of problem
solving, but that doesn't mean it won't occasionally happen with my
youngest. I assume he's doing his best at the moment and simply needs
help resolving the issue so both parties can be at peace. We don't
punish him, we try really hard not to shame him (though it can
sometimes seep through if one is frustrated in the moment).

I try to be proactive and present so when there is a difficult moment,
my kids don't feel the need to resort to hitting someone. Our line of
defense has been "use your words, if that doesn't work then get an
arbitrator to help resolve the issue, if that doesn't work then
hitting might be an option".

We know with an arbitrator available, it won't need to get to the
hitting stage :) and if there was that much intensity, I get the
parties separated until we can discuss it calmly.

Nobody deserves to be hit and harmed. I believe our home should be a
safe haven for all. Parents need to make sure their home is safe for
their children.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: honeybee@...

This isnt a free for all in this world and as parents we have to be the
first ones to make sure out kids understand what is correct in life.
Hitting
is not correct- you will get in trouble. I believe it is out duty.
Now I don't intervene in squabbles, you took my toy away and sharing
etc-
Unless it escalates to where you know your child will hit. I have an
almost
two year old who at this time in her life does get that frustrated, she
has
not hit a person but will throw the toy... My 4 yo is very passive and
would
give the toy away and walk away before anything was an issue.

-=-=-=-

My problem with the above advice is that children have very few tools
to start with. Letting things go until they escalate is simply too late.

If you are there to help from the beginning, the children will gain
tools *through your help and advice* to avoid hitting at all. Letting
it get to a place just before hitting shortens their arsenal of tools
to work it out *before* the frustration even commences. Why is
toy-throwing acceptable? It doesn't even have to get *that* far!

Why would you not intervene in "squabbles?" Seems to me as if that's
the FIRST place to intervene.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.