Rachel

I don't know what to do and need help.

My 15yo dd who previously was with us only on weekends moved in full
time :) and now 5yo dd is really acting up. 5yo has told me that I
have to promise only to pay attention to her or she will hit me, live
somewhere else, bite me and mor I can't remember right now. I have
tried to amke sure both 15yo and 5yo have their needs met but it is
tough. 15yo is going through emotional termoil with the change and
leaving her dad, 5yo seems jealous.

I have spent most of everyday with 5yo watching movies with her,
snuggling, going to park, playing etc. but she still clings on to me
so tightly when 15yo or DH is home. She wants me to carry her which
would be fine with me but she really is too big for me to carry all
the time, I give her piggybacks and shoulder rides when I can. I have
tried to validate her feelings and reassure her that I will still
take care of her. She has even starting nursing again.

Last night 5yo said that she new she was not a good person that she
hated herself and she wanted wings so she could fly up to the sky and
be with her grandma. She has hit,kicked, bit, said I hate you. These
are things that she would not have heard or gotten from our home. I
try my best to stay calm during these meltdowns and eventually she
will cry and say she is sorry.

This change is hard for both girls and also for DH and I. What can I
do or say to help the girls feel secure that there is enough of me to
go around. How do I keep 5yo from overshadowing 15yo (from experience
I know that 5yo personality is to keep pushing and 15yo has not
learned how to ask for or get what she needs) when it comes to time
with me.

Rachel

natalijoi

I think it's good to keep doing what you are doing, reassuring her,
giving her attention, but have you told her how *you* feel about
what she's saying or doing? When we first began our Unschooling
journey, I was so all about meeting their needs and making sure
their feelings were acknowledged and validated, I forgot that I had
feelings and needs, and that those were *just as* important as the
children's feelings, and I still forget, sometimes.

My oldest, 8yo ds, is here full time, and 4yo ds is gone on
weekends, at which time 8yo and I have a thoroughly "us" two days.
It's really hard for him to switch gears, and he will say things
like "I hate you" to 4yo. At which time, I confront him immediately,
calmly, and tell him, " that really hurts my feelings, Solly. Are
there other words you can use to tell Ryan how you feel? I
understand that you are frustrated, right? But I love you, and I
love Ryan, and it hurts my heart when someone says something mean to
you." At which time he starts to explain, and we solve the problem,
with Ryan jumping in "yeah, Solly, that makes me sad"

My kids have lots of frustrated behaviors that I am appalled at
also. I've stopped worrying about where they "get them" from,
because I think every human has the potential to be violent and
dangerous when they're angry. I think of it as kind of like free
form anger, it's just not nearly as pleasant to watch as, say, free
form dancing.

I know there're lots of other facets to your situation I'm not even
touching on, but I think it's vitally important to let kids know,
especially when they are being violently expressive of their
frustrations, exactly how it makes you feel, and then sit right
there with them, without even saying anything or asking any
questions, just watch her, let her feel that you are there with her
in this, and let her make the first move. Hopefully, she will see
that you *are* there, right now, but the communication can't happen
until she is not abusing you. I don't mean to say that you should
withhold, just let her really have control of the situation. I think
she is feeling really out of control, and she's showing you "look
how crazy I feel right now!" Maybe she just needs to come to her own
conclusion that she can express how she feels without hurting you,
in a different way, and that she will be heard, that you will be
there.

-NatalieJoy & her boys
Solstice(8) Ryan(4)

--- In [email protected], "Rachel" <radle12000@...>
wrote:
>
> I don't know what to do and need help.
>
> My 15yo dd who previously was with us only on weekends moved in
full
> time :) and now 5yo dd is really acting up. 5yo has told me that I
> have to promise only to pay attention to her or she will hit me,
live
> somewhere else, bite me and mor I can't remember right now. I have
> tried to amke sure both 15yo and 5yo have their needs met but it
is
> tough. 15yo is going through emotional termoil with the change and
> leaving her dad, 5yo seems jealous.
>
> I have spent most of everyday with 5yo watching movies with her,
> snuggling, going to park, playing etc. but she still clings on to
me
> so tightly when 15yo or DH is home. She wants me to carry her
which
> would be fine with me but she really is too big for me to carry
all
> the time, I give her piggybacks and shoulder rides when I can. I
have
> tried to validate her feelings and reassure her that I will still
> take care of her. She has even starting nursing again.
>
> Last night 5yo said that she new she was not a good person that
she
> hated herself and she wanted wings so she could fly up to the sky
and
> be with her grandma. She has hit,kicked, bit, said I hate you.
These
> are things that she would not have heard or gotten from our home.
I
> try my best to stay calm during these meltdowns and eventually she
> will cry and say she is sorry.
>
> This change is hard for both girls and also for DH and I. What can
I
> do or say to help the girls feel secure that there is enough of me
to
> go around. How do I keep 5yo from overshadowing 15yo (from
experience
> I know that 5yo personality is to keep pushing and 15yo has not
> learned how to ask for or get what she needs) when it comes to
time
> with me.
>
> Rachel
>

Ren Allen

~~She has hit,kicked, bit, said I hate you. These
are things that she would not have heard or gotten from our home.~~


This contradicts what you said in your very first post here, about CPS
being involved in your lives because you hit a teen in your home. It
will be hard to offer helpful advice if we're not getting an accurate
picture of what is really happening. If a teen was hit, then hitting
IS something she's learned in her home.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Rachel

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> ~~She has hit,kicked, bit, said I hate you. These
> are things that she would not have heard or gotten from our home.~~
>
>
> This contradicts what you said in your very first post here, about CPS
> being involved in your lives because you hit a teen in your home. It
> will be hard to offer helpful advice if we're not getting an accurate
> picture of what is really happening. If a teen was hit, then hitting
> IS something she's learned in her home.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>

You must be confusing me with someone else. I joined this group on
Jan 31, I have posted twice, "help with schooled daughter" and
"elimination diet and my 5yodd".

Rachel

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 25, 2007, at 1:19 AM, Ren Allen wrote:

> This contradicts what you said in your very first post here

It's a different Rachel.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

> You must be confusing me with someone else. I joined this group on
> Jan 31, I have posted twice, "help with schooled daughter" and
> "elimination diet and my 5yodd".
>
> Rachel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Very sorry!
I confused you with a Rachel that posted in the last couple of days. I
obviously need to slow down and pay attention to member ID, not just
names.:)

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Rachel

--- In [email protected], "natalijoi" <natalijoi@...>
wrote:

I was so all about meeting their needs and making sure
> their feelings were acknowledged and validated, I forgot that I had
> feelings and needs, and that those were *just as* important as the
> children's feelings, and I still forget, sometimes.

Yeah, I do forget my own needs,but am getting better, I DO NOT want to
be a martyr or a victim. Sometime 5yo wants to control even when I go
to the bathroom and for how long all though I have to admit that I do
try to use that as an escape when I just need a moment to myself.
Housework has also gone by the wayside but somethings do have to be
done like having clothes to wear and food to eat. I do also have a
point at which I *need* to clean up, my standards are very low and
pertain only to functions that are necessary. How do I communicate
what my needs are or even that I have needs so that she understands or
is she too young to understand? What about DH and 15yo's needs?

> My kids have lots of frustrated behaviors that I am appalled at
> also. I've stopped worrying about where they "get them" from,
> because I think every human has the potential to be violent and
> dangerous when they're angry. I think of it as kind of like free
> form anger, it's just not nearly as pleasant to watch as, say, free
> form dancing.

She does a lot of free form dancing, singing, drawing etc.!!! Free
form anger would be a more *positive* way for me to look at her
outbursts, like it adds to her creative file instead of detracting
from our relationship.

> I know there're lots of other facets to your situation I'm not even
> touching on, but I think it's vitally important to let kids know,
> especially when they are being violently expressive of their
> frustrations, exactly how it makes you feel, and then sit right
> there with them, without even saying anything or asking any
> questions, just watch her, let her feel that you are there with her
> in this, and let her make the first move.

Usually I try to talk to her, it doesn't help. I will definitely give
this a try.


>Hopefully, she will see
> that you *are* there, right now, but the communication can't happen
> until she is not abusing you. I don't mean to say that you should
> withhold, just let her really have control of the situation. I think
> she is feeling really out of control, and she's showing you "look
> how crazy I feel right now!" Maybe she just needs to come to her own
> conclusion that she can express how she feels without hurting you,
> in a different way, and that she will be heard, that you will be
> there.


> -NatalieJoy & her boys
> Solstice(8) Ryan(4)
>
> --- In [email protected], "Rachel" <radle12000@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I don't know what to do and need help.
> >
> > My 15yo dd who previously was with us only on weekends moved in
> full
> > time :) and now 5yo dd is really acting up. 5yo has told me that I
> > have to promise only to pay attention to her or she will hit me,
> live
> > somewhere else, bite me and mor I can't remember right now. I have
> > tried to amke sure both 15yo and 5yo have their needs met but it
> is
> > tough. 15yo is going through emotional termoil with the change and
> > leaving her dad, 5yo seems jealous.
> >
> > I have spent most of everyday with 5yo watching movies with her,
> > snuggling, going to park, playing etc. but she still clings on to
> me
> > so tightly when 15yo or DH is home. She wants me to carry her
> which
> > would be fine with me but she really is too big for me to carry
> all
> > the time, I give her piggybacks and shoulder rides when I can. I
> have
> > tried to validate her feelings and reassure her that I will still
> > take care of her. She has even starting nursing again.
> >
> > Last night 5yo said that she new she was not a good person that
> she
> > hated herself and she wanted wings so she could fly up to the sky
> and
> > be with her grandma. She has hit,kicked, bit, said I hate you.
> These
> > are things that she would not have heard or gotten from our home.
> I
> > try my best to stay calm during these meltdowns and eventually she
> > will cry and say she is sorry.
> >
> > This change is hard for both girls and also for DH and I. What can
> I
> > do or say to help the girls feel secure that there is enough of me
> to
> > go around. How do I keep 5yo from overshadowing 15yo (from
> experience
> > I know that 5yo personality is to keep pushing and 15yo has not
> > learned how to ask for or get what she needs) when it comes to
> time
> > with me.
> >
> > Rachel
> >
>

Rachel

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
>
> > You must be confusing me with someone else. I joined this group on
> > Jan 31, I have posted twice, "help with schooled daughter" and
> > "elimination diet and my 5yodd".
> >
> > Rachel
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Very sorry!
> I confused you with a Rachel that posted in the last couple of days. I
> obviously need to slow down and pay attention to member ID, not just
> names.:)
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
No worries:)
Rachel

Priscilla Anderson

I could be wrong, but this looks like two different Rachels!

---------------------------------
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 25, 2007, at 8:09 PM, Rachel wrote:

> I do also have a
> point at which I *need* to clean up, my standards are very low and
> pertain only to functions that are necessary. How do I communicate
> what my needs are or even that I have needs so that she understands or
> is she too young to understand?

It will help if you see that you don't *need* to clean up. And before
you say -- "Yes, I do! It's not me being a neat freak ..." --- ;-)
recognize that it's something you *want* to do. Really, really want
to but one will die if you don't clean up. It's something that will
ease something in you so you *want* to do it.

She's too young to understand. I suspect you're trying to get her to
understand in order to get her okay so you can stop from feeling
guilty for saying, "No, I can't play right now."

You don't need her permission on how you spend your time. You *can*
say, "I'm setting a timer for 15 minutes to do a quick clean up." You
*can* say "Here's what I'd like to do for the afternoon ... (which
includes some clean up and some fun things :-) What would you like to
do?" And then work out a plan to get both of your wants worked in.

I want to add a caveat to the "You don't need her permission on how
you spend your time." You *can* spend your time however you want. You
get to choose. :-) But if you choose in a way that her wants and
needs keep slipping down the list as more "have tos" (or your own
want tos) get added to the list, that teaches her she needs to fight
to get her wants and needs met. She won't compromise when you say
"Hey, I need to do this!" because she knows once your attention
shifts away, she's very likely lost the opportunity to get what she
wants.

Be realistic about your needs. A need for 3 hours of alone time a day
just isn't going to happen with a 5 yo ;-) (I'm not saying you're
doing that. It's just an extreme example. We should carve out time to
meet our needs, but we need to be reasonable about what we can and
can't achieve when we have kids. We brought them into our world and
they *are* our priority until they're gone.)

Put her on your list and make sure you treat her needs as important
as a friend's needs. But also treat your needs and your husband's and
your son's as you would a friend's. Be realistic! Don't whine and
complain (silently) that you're only one person and they should just
understand and not ask more than you can do so you don't have to feel
guilty or overworked. Ask for help. You can say "I'd like to make
dinner *and* play with you. If you help me with dinner, it can go
faster ... We can play restaurant and make dinner together ..." Or
see if she can come up with ideas.

If you have some specific examples, it might be easier to explain
since that maybe sounds too pie in the sky ;-)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "Rachel" <radle12000@...>
wrote:
>> I have spent most of everyday with 5yo watching movies with her,
> snuggling, going to park, playing etc. but she still clings on to
me
> so tightly when 15yo or DH is home.

Rachel, can you clarify that last bit for me... what do you
mean "when 15yo is home"? I'm reading that to mean she's in school -
is that correct?

It was such a relief to all of us when Ray's mom finally said okay
to homeschooling. School was a big disruption to our life! So if
your older dd is in school, that may be adding some extra stess for
your 5yo in some different ways... she could worry that she'll get
sent to school, too, for example. That would certainly account for
the clinging and "acting up". Even if she's not worried about
something like that, having a new housemate is a BIG life change -
having one with these weird scheduling, clothing, food, and work
requirements is a big topsy-turvey change. *I* felt like school was
ruining our life - your 5yo could easily feel the same way.

> How do I keep 5yo from overshadowing 15yo (from experience
> I know that 5yo personality is to keep pushing and 15yo has not
> learned how to ask for or get what she needs) when it comes to
time
> with me.

I find it helps *me* to avoid thinking of the kids needs as being in
competition with each other: Every person in my family is important
to me. My stepson also has learned to be somewhat retiring wrt his
needs, so I make an effort to meet those needs proactively. That
helps him feel important and special even with a high-energy 5yo
bouncing all over the place.

Honestly, though, if the 15yo is in school, her needs may be
overshadowed just as a result of that. Certainly it will be faaaaaar
more difficult to include her in your Real life if she's not
unschooling, too.

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Rachel

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666"
<plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "Rachel" <radle12000@>
> wrote:
> >> I have spent most of everyday with 5yo watching movies with her,
> > snuggling, going to park, playing etc. but she still clings on to
> me
> > so tightly when 15yo or DH is home.
>
> Rachel, can you clarify that last bit for me... what do you
> mean "when 15yo is home"? I'm reading that to mean she's in school -
> is that correct?

Yes she goes to school, the same one since kindergarten and is not
wanting to leave right now. We are looking into other options and what
she feels comfortable with. She is only beginning to realizes that she
can choose and her choices will be honored.

> It was such a relief to all of us when Ray's mom finally said okay
> to homeschooling. School was a big disruption to our life! So if
> your older dd is in school, that may be adding some extra stess for
> your 5yo in some different ways... she could worry that she'll get
> sent to school, too, for example. That would certainly account for
> the clinging and "acting up".

I would be relieved if 15yo decided to unschool but I don't want her
to feel like now *I* am *telling* her to quit school. I have to allow
her to truly chose for herself, that is soooo hard for me. I think
this new experience with living here and having so much
freedom...phone, friends, computer, My Space, ears pieced, food
choices, clothing *she* likes, etc., will help her see that she can be
herself and be loved, not valued by her GPA.
It also makes sense that 5yo would be scared of being sent to
school. She doesn't like to be away from me for very long. Dh and I
have tried to have a date night where 5yo spends the night at grandmas
(5yo's idea) but I have picked her up 2 out of 3 times :) and the 3rd
time I picked her up really early in the morning, and 5yo and her
grandma have a very close relationship.


Even if she's not worried about
> something like that, having a new housemate is a BIG life change -
> having one with these weird scheduling, clothing, food, and work
> requirements is a big topsy-turvey change. *I* felt like school was
> ruining our life - your 5yo could easily feel the same way.

Yeah, we have had to deal with lots of homework and why can't 15yo
play now and Parent teacher conferences (I promised 15yo that I
wouldn't tell her teachers what I really thought).

> > How do I keep 5yo from overshadowing 15yo (from experience
> > I know that 5yo personality is to keep pushing and 15yo has not
> > learned how to ask for or get what she needs) when it comes to
> time
> > with me.
>
> I find it helps *me* to avoid thinking of the kids needs as being in
> competition with each other: Every person in my family is important
> to me. My stepson also has learned to be somewhat retiring wrt his
> needs, so I make an effort to meet those needs proactively. That
> helps him feel important and special even with a high-energy 5yo
> bouncing all over the place.

I am learning this. I think it's something like the expansion theory
where everyones needs can be met at the same time rather than only one
person at a time. Things are calming down a bit as time goes on. At
first 5yo would grab my arm and try to take me away from 15yo and talk
over 15yo when we were trying to have a conversation. Last night 5yo
put some very *lovely* make-up on me while 15yo and I had a great
talk, all was well.

> Honestly, though, if the 15yo is in school, her needs may be
> overshadowed just as a result of that. Certainly it will be faaaaaar
> more difficult to include her in your Real life if she's not
> unschooling, too.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
>

natalijoi

Last night 5yo
> put some very *lovely* make-up on me while 15yo and I had a great
> talk, all was well.


So glad to hear it! I think that all of us have a tendency to freak
out a bit about changes, it's a hard thing to accept, that nothing,
*nothing* stays the same. I like to talk to my kids about changes on
a molecular level, the way that every time we drive our car some
tiny bits of the tire stay on the road, and so even though it's
still a tire, it's different, and the road is different, and when
you eat food, it makes the cells in your body, and so those cells
are different, and the cells your sheets make your sheets
different....
We like to point out to eachother all the ways every single thing is
different every moment. And it's exciting. We went to a mandala
making by a group of Tibetan Monks last summer, and really got on a
kick about how wonderful it is that everything changes all the time.
It's a really peaceful feeling to just *know* that in your soul.
Maybe your 5yo would enjoy a table top zen garden? I know I do!
Happy changing.
-natalijoi