Julie Peters

I know that many of you here don't think there is a need for a HS
diploma or college...and neither do I actually. However, for my DD
(13), it is important to her to "fit in" to the societal norm of having
a diploma...for her peace of mind. She has always been driven by the
external (friends, hollywood, etc.) albeit, to a much lesser degree than
most.

Anyway, here is what we are doing...

We decided (as a family...it is so cool to think we all agreed on
this...even DH!) that we would have DD finish/get her HS diploma
early...June 2008...she'll be 14 yo!

We use an umbrella school (for those in TN it's HLA) and forge/fake
subjects, grades, attendance, etc. to meet the TN credit/attendance
requirements. We also are "working the system" per se. TN states that
a student must attend for 180 days per fiscal year (per grade).
However, there are 2 sets of 180 days in a year (365) so we are saying
she is completing 2 years of HS in 1 fiscal year. We reported that she
did and completed 9th grade from July-Dec 2006, is now doing and will
complete 10th grade from Jan-June 2007, 11th from July-Dec 2007, and
finish 12th from Jan-June 2008.

The key here is that it is just a piece of paper and fulfilling the
law...albeit, through loop holes. (HLA's diplomas are fully accredited
or we would just make one up and hit "print".) That is all DD
wants...is the paper, for security (it being accredited is even better).

Here is what we are thinking of "next"...

Because DD will be so young, because we don't want to torture her in a
classroom, because of all the hoops and red tape and because "why waste
all that time and money?"...we don't want her to go to a traditional
college. We had thought of a class or two at the local community
college but even that was a push for what we think is practical and
ethical. SO...

We have been looking into the idea of CLEP-ing a college degree for DD
(and for DH and me to finish ours). We were turned on to
CollegePlus.org through a magazine. BUT after looking into it we
discovered they are asking for a fee to "coach" you and organize your
tests/testing schedule...something you can do completely on your own for
free...there's not even any red tape!

The hunt began and we discovered that there are at least 3 colleges in
the U.S. that accept 100% "credit-through-testing" to earn your BA/BS
(fully-accredited). And that the typical BA/BS (normally 4-5 years on
campus, in a classroom) can be earned in UNDER a year (for some, in as
little as 4 months)!! And the cost to "test-out" of college...about $5
- 8,000 for a BA/BS depending on which college you use AND that is all
inclusive of study materials, tuition, and testing (conventionally $5K+
per year, if not per semester)!

Again, it is nothing more than the quest for the golden "piece of
paper". We don't care about mastering material (at least not after the
test is taken), the college experience, being prepared for a prestigious
career, etc. We just want the degree as cheap and a quick as
possible...even though we don't think it is nessecary or an accurate
account of one's knowledge...that is what society wants. So why not
give it to them...and then when they find out how easily, quickly,
cheaply, legitimately, and "out-of-the-box" it was done, they'll faint
wishing they didn't waste all their time, money, and dignity on the
conventional method!

Could you imagine if the tide was turned by earning entire college
degrees by testing...that you could do it cheaply in under a year and
never having to step foot on a campus? It could put traditional
colleges out of business! Just like H/Using is starting to enlighten
the PS system to their faults..."testing-out" will do the
same...eventually, if it catches on. Right now it is a "hush-hush
secret".

This just seems like it is the Unschooling thing to do. It serves 2
USing purposes...not attending an institution with all their hoops and
rules...and learning at your own pace with the bonus of the gloriously
over-emphasized and highly-coveted, "piece of paper"!

Our DD gets the societal "norm" she wants (diploma/degree) and we get
the satisfaction of Unschooling both papers.

Also, because it is "testing-out" not attending, she could actually
start taking the CLEP exams now (they are good for 20 years) before she
receives her HS diploma (no need for ACT scores or anything)...so
technically and if she wanted to try, she could have her BA/BS and her
HS diploma awarded at the same time!

I keep thinking of Valerie Fitzenreiter's book (The Unprocessed Child)
and her daughter, Laurie Chancey. I know that Laurie went to college
and did quite will...and still is. But I was wondering..."What if she
didn't ever have to go...what if she simply tested-out...just like she
tested for her enterance?" She could have gotten the same results
without ever having to go to ANY school, ever.

Questions:

ARE WE NUTS??...for wanting to do this; thinking it is even possible;
for attmpting to have a 14 yo be a HS graduate with the potential of a
BA/BS before 16; for actually (emotionally and mentally) being at peace
with that idea; for wanting the degrees in the first place (even if we
do buck the system)?

I figure this is what USing is supposed to be about, right? Not giving
in to what "others" prescribe, to let your children be free (from
school, from burdens, from "other's opinions", from rules and
regulations), to not value the Educational Institution or it's opinion
as the determining factor of one's worth, and to find unique ways to
learn and succeed that others either take for granted or just do not
"see"?

What do you think????

Thanks and sorry this was sooo long,

Julie Peters

[email protected]

Julie: Just thought I'd add a wee bit of experience . . very interesting what you're suggesting about Cleping, etc. I was traditionally schooled and went to a university, but all I really wanted to do was dance (modern dance). So I took a clepp test freshman year and "clepped out" of all required subjects for my undergrad requirements . . . so for four years I only took dance classes and a couple other things I was interested in -- human embryology and human sexuality. (!) So I turned a four year university experience into basically a conservatory experience . . . danced and performed to my hearts' content. I enjoyed living away from home and learning to be independent, but it was expected of me to leave, etc. . . . I didn't realize Clep tests were still around. I have NO recall of the test, and I do remember being shocked I could get out of all those requirements so easily. Good luck!

Ann

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: julieannpeters@...
Questions:

ARE WE NUTS??...for wanting to do this; thinking it is even possible;
for attmpting to have a 14 yo be a HS graduate with the potential of a
BA/BS before 16; for actually (emotionally and mentally) being at peace
with that idea; for wanting the degrees in the first place (even if we
do buck the system)?

I figure this is what USing is supposed to be about, right? Not giving
in to what "others" prescribe, to let your children be free (from
school, from burdens, from "other's opinions", from rules and
regulations), to not value the Educational Institution or it's opinion
as the determining factor of one's worth, and to find unique ways to
learn and succeed that others either take for granted or just do not
"see"?

What do you think????

-=-=-

Well, since you asked...

I don't think that's what it's about AT ALL!

To me unschooling is about NOT doing schoolish things in order to
learn. Learning happens all the time. It's organic.

To me there's nothing organic about the way you're going about it. You
still have the same goal (diplomas and graduations), just a different
way to achieve those goals. Unschooling is about the *LEARNING*---NOT
the diplomas or grades or classes.

What you're doing is nowhere NEAR "free from others' opinions"---in
fact, it's guided competely by them. You're just taking an easy way
out---just getting *around* all the rules and regulations. I don't
think that's what learning is about at all.

Not that you're not learning! You're learning to do what others
proscribe---just in a different way.

To me REAL learning, real Unschooling, would be understanding that all
of those hoops are meaningless. REAL learning wouldn't rely on those
standards at all.

I'm sorry. I don't get it. It's just school in overdrive.

But if that's what she wants....

Just don't call it unschooling.



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org










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Julie Peters

Thanks Ann!

That is really encouraging. We want Allie to know she can do
whatever she desires but unfortunately the world thinks you "must"
suffer through what you don't like to get there.

So if she gets a generic Liberal Arts degree then she can do
whatever she wants...take fun classes, go on to specialize in a
Master's of her choice, or just hang out...doesn't matter. She'll
be worlds ahead of the rest of society and happier too.

Oddly, Allie wants to be a teacher! She has a passion to change the
system. I have my doubts that any difference will come from the
inside of the system...but more power to her for wanting to try. I
guess she's taking up after John Taylor Gatto in that aspect. She
has also talked about becoming a Lawyer...could I dare persuade her
to take up educational law??

Julie Peters

[email protected]

>>To me unschooling is about NOT doing schoolish things in order to
learn. Learning happens all the time. It's organic.

To me there's nothing organic about the way you're going about it. You
still have the same goal (diplomas and graduations), just a different
way to achieve those goals. Unschooling is about the *LEARNING*---NOT
the diplomas or grades or classes.


I absolutely agree with your definition of unschooling. Unfortunately depending on a person's choice of career , at this time and in this country it may still be necessary to have 'the degree'. I am a physician and no amount of unschooling would allow me to (legally) practice medicine in this country. By necessity at some point a person would have to transition into a university environment (some studies could be accomplished at home but still within someone else's guidelines ) for that 'formal degree'. It is understood that this is a compromise of (US) principles without a doubt, but the other alternatives might be to compromise a dream for a particular career or live in a country/place where 'formal degrees' are not required)(If any exist) .






-------------- Original message --------------
From: kbcdlovejo@...
-----Original Message-----
From: julieannpeters@...
Questions:

ARE WE NUTS??...for wanting to do this; thinking it is even possible;
for attmpting to have a 14 yo be a HS graduate with the potential of a
BA/BS before 16; for actually (emotionally and mentally) being at peace
with that idea; for wanting the degrees in the first place (even if we
do buck the system)?

I figure this is what USing is supposed to be about, right? Not giving
in to what "others" prescribe, to let your children be free (from
school, from burdens, from "other's opinions", from rules and
regulations), to not value the Educational Institution or it's opinion
as the determining factor of one's worth, and to find unique ways to
learn and succeed that others either take for granted or just do not
"see"?

What do you think????

-=-=-

Well, since you asked...

I don't think that's what it's about AT ALL!

To me unschooling is about NOT doing schoolish things in order to
learn. Learning happens all the time. It's organic.

To me there's nothing organic about the way you're going about it. You
still have the same goal (diplomas and graduations), just a different
way to achieve those goals. Unschooling is about the *LEARNING*---NOT
the diplomas or grades or classes.

What you're doing is nowhere NEAR "free from others' opinions"---in
fact, it's guided competely by them. You're just taking an easy way
out---just getting *around* all the rules and regulations. I don't
think that's what learning is about at all.

Not that you're not learning! You're learning to do what others
proscribe---just in a different way.

To me REAL learning, real Unschooling, would be understanding that all
of those hoops are meaningless. REAL learning wouldn't rely on those
standards at all.

I'm sorry. I don't get it. It's just school in overdrive.

But if that's what she wants....

Just don't call it unschooling.

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

__________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

At one point in my twenties I wanted to be a chaperone on study trips abroad for high school aged kids. It was absolutely what I wanted to do at that point in my life. I was refused the job because a college degree was required. I wish I had known about CLEPing a B.A. back then.
Kathryn

-------------- Original message --------------
From: TheLerews@...
>>To me unschooling is about NOT doing schoolish things in order to
learn. Learning happens all the time. It's organic.

To me there's nothing organic about the way you're going about it. You
still have the same goal (diplomas and graduations), just a different
way to achieve those goals. Unschooling is about the *LEARNING*---NOT
the diplomas or grades or classes.

I absolutely agree with your definition of unschooling. Unfortunately depending on a person's choice of career , at this time and in this country it may still be necessary to have 'the degree'. I am a physician and no amount of unschooling would allow me to (legally) practice medicine in this country. By necessity at some point a person would have to transition into a university environment (some studies could be accomplished at home but still within someone else's guidelines ) for that 'formal degree'. It is understood that this is a compromise of (US) principles without a doubt, but the other alternatives might be to compromise a dream for a particular career or live in a country/place where 'formal degrees' are not required)(If any exist) .

-------------- Original message --------------
From: kbcdlovejo@...
-----Original Message-----
From: julieannpeters@...
Questions:

ARE WE NUTS??...for wanting to do this; thinking it is even possible;
for attmpting to have a 14 yo be a HS graduate with the potential of a
BA/BS before 16; for actually (emotionally and mentally) being at peace
with that idea; for wanting the degrees in the first place (even if we
do buck the system)?

I figure this is what USing is supposed to be about, right? Not giving
in to what "others" prescribe, to let your children be free (from
school, from burdens, from "other's opinions", from rules and
regulations), to not value the Educational Institution or it's opinion
as the determining factor of one's worth, and to find unique ways to
learn and succeed that others either take for granted or just do not
"see"?

What do you think????

-=-=-

Well, since you asked...

I don't think that's what it's about AT ALL!

To me unschooling is about NOT doing schoolish things in order to
learn. Learning happens all the time. It's organic.

To me there's nothing organic about the way you're going about it. You
still have the same goal (diplomas and graduations), just a different
way to achieve those goals. Unschooling is about the *LEARNING*---NOT
the diplomas or grades or classes.

What you're doing is nowhere NEAR "free from others' opinions"---in
fact, it's guided competely by them. You're just taking an easy way
out---just getting *around* all the rules and regulations. I don't
think that's what learning is about at all.

Not that you're not learning! You're learning to do what others
proscribe---just in a different way.

To me REAL learning, real Unschooling, would be understanding that all
of those hoops are meaningless. REAL learning wouldn't rely on those
standards at all.

I'm sorry. I don't get it. It's just school in overdrive.

But if that's what she wants....

Just don't call it unschooling.

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

__________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~What you're doing is nowhere NEAR "free from others' opinions"---in
fact, it's guided competely by them. You're just taking an easy way
out---just getting *around* all the rules and regulations. I don't
think that's what learning is about at all.~~


I totally agree.

To the OP; You've figured out a way to get exactly what society says
you "should" have, only without the effort. Big deal.

It also sounds like you are really excited about getting her this
diploma and college degree at a very young age. Big deal again.

My spouse and I are living proof that you DON'T need a college degree
to be fulfilled and successful. I know a LOT of people that are very
successful at their chosen career path without a degree.

And if you truly NEED a degree (ie; physician, lawyer etc..) then
jumping through the hoops to shortcut a way to a diploma/degree won't
cut it.

I'd spend more effort and energy assisting her in following her
passions, wherever those may lead. If she is truly bent on a degree,
why not actually LEARN something you love while doing it? Seems
ridiculous for an unschooler to subscribe to all the diploma/degree
pressure by finding a way around the requirements. What for?

Why is that piece of paper so important? It truly isn't. If she cares
about it so much, let her get it while learning something of value to
her. Basically, you're saying the diploma and degree are important to
have (which they aren't) but you don't want her to do anything of
value to get it. What kind of message is that sending?

If it's not valuable, then get on with life and do the things you love!

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: TheLerews@...


I absolutely agree with your definition of unschooling. Unfortunately
depending
on a person's choice of career , at this time and in this country it
may still
be necessary to have 'the degree'. I am a physician and no amount of
unschooling would allow me to (legally) practice medicine in this
country. By
necessity at some point a person would have to transition into a
university
environment (some studies could be accomplished at home but still
within someone
else's guidelines ) for that 'formal degree'. It is understood that
this is a
compromise of (US) principles without a doubt, but the other
alternatives might
be to compromise a dream for a particular career or live in a
country/place
where 'formal degrees' are not required)(If any exist) .

-=-=-=-=-

College is not high school. All high school can be unschooled. Much of
college can too (credits for work). I know of a girl who got into
veterinary school without a college diploma. She had the required
classes and lots of real life experience. Vet school took her because
she passed the tests and had an exceptional resume.

But there WILL be unschoolers who are physicians---and lawyers and
other professions that require higher ed. You can CERTAINLY get into
med school after having unschooled high school.

Things DON'T have to be done the way we're told they *must*.

One of the things that bothered me about the original past was the rush
for diplomas. Especially for a 13 year old. There's nothing unschooly
about that kind of rushed learning. Fine for a child who must go to
school---rush through---please! <g> But for a child whose whole life is
open and free, it just makes no sense.

College isn't really about the paper. It's more about the experience.
Most kids have very little choice while in school. They aren't allowed
to question. They must abide by a bunch of silly rules. College for the
average teen is HUGE---NOT the classes and diplomas, but the new
people, the (limited) autonomy, the exposure to an unknown world. It's
eye-opening for most teens/young adults. It's about questioning and
seeking and making new friends and experimenting and learning for
learning's sake---unlike high school.

If a child were rushing though college too---why bother? *Just* for the
diploma? I just don't understand.



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.

Danielle Conger

Ren Allen wrote:
>
> My spouse and I are living proof that you DON'T need a college degree
> to be fulfilled and successful. I know a LOT of people that are very
> successful at their chosen career path without a degree.
>

And lots and lots of folks with degrees who never even use them!

--
~~Danielle
Emily (9), Julia (8), Sam (6)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Connections: ezine of unschooling and mindful parenting
http://connections.organiclearning.org

Ginger Sabo

here,here


In Peace,
Ginger
Kai(7) and Kade(5)

LOVE has impact.

"It's not our differences that divide us. It is our inability to recognize, accept and celebrate those differences." - Audre Lorde



----- Original Message ----
From: Danielle Conger <danielle.conger@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 6:22:42 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Early Diplomas? (long)

Ren Allen wrote:
>
> My spouse and I are living proof that you DON'T need a college degree
> to be fulfilled and successful. I know a LOT of people that are very
> successful at their chosen career path without a degree.
>

And lots and lots of folks with degrees who never even use them!

--
~~Danielle
Emily (9), Julia (8), Sam (6)
http://www.organicl earning.blogspot .com

~*~*~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~ *

Connections: ezine of unschooling and mindful parenting
http://connections. organiclearning. org






____________________________________________________________________________________
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

camden

My sister paid over $100,000 to go to college for business & real estate
banking. She has never done anything in either field, she's a dispatcher
for the police department of which she needed only a high school diploma
for. The first job she got when she graduated was at one of those drop off
photo booths in a parking lot ;)

She says she did enjoy going to college but it did nothing to further her
career path.

Carol

>>
>
> And lots and lots of folks with degrees who never even use them!
>
> --
> ~~Danielle
> Emily (9), Julia (8), Sam (6)
> http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com
>

Cameron Parham

Although I totally disagree with our culture's wasteful trend of sending almost everyone to college, and I would never suugest someone go to college just to go, there is no getting around the fact that for some careers you have to have a reputable college degree, not just a piece of paper. I am not saying this is ideal, only true. The example of a physician is a good one; also a researcher in most fields, physical therapist, etc. I'd never value anyone according to any societal label, and I know for happiness, many people don't need a degree. But I also want to give my kids a life foundation which allows them the freedom to choose carrers which do require a degree if they want. In short, aren't we aiming for greater freedom? I'd love to hear thoughts on this, and whether there seems to come a time when a person/child may desire to do a course of study which would necessitate memorization/bookwork....this seemed to be the case in the Colfaxes' book, Homeschooling for
Excellence. I'd love to hear some thoughts on this...

----- Original Message ----
From: Danielle Conger <danielle.conger@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 6:22:42 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Early Diplomas? (long)

Ren Allen wrote:
>
> My spouse and I are living proof that you DON'T need a college degree
> to be fulfilled and successful. I know a LOT of people that are very
> successful at their chosen career path without a degree.
>

And lots and lots of folks with degrees who never even use them!

--
~~Danielle
Emily (9), Julia (8), Sam (6)
http://www.organicl earning.blogspot .com

~*~*~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~ *

Connections: ezine of unschooling and mindful parenting
http://connections. organiclearning. org




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

there is no getting around the fact that for some careers you have to have a reputable college degree, not just a piece of paper.
*********
Of course. I think the original discussion was revolving around a young person getting a general/Liberal arts degree.
Elissa Jill
OTN:
Stitch of the Day Swatch
silk/wool blend tie front mini sweater
http://mystikmusings.blogspot.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa Heyman

>
>there is no getting around the fact that for some careers you have to have
>a reputable college degree, not just a piece of paper.
>*********

Well some of us have blown this myth apart in certain conventional
areas...prior to kids, i was a consultant for fortune 500 companies on
Madison Avenue and taught at University in NYC - all without college degree
(under graduate or otherwise). And in more recent years have worked in
museums (local and national) and was invited to work in school systems -
again all without a masters degree, or teaching certificate. The first was
as computer consultant...self taught - and the second as an visiting artist
'educator' again self taught - both self actualized careers as a result of
following my passions and interests...which have changed throughout my life.
the jobs and opportunities i've had are those that i've been told need
MBA's or BFA or MFA or PhD's. (My mother still hopes i will go back and
finish college degree and become doctor of education....how funny - the last
thing i need is a college degree to validate my area of expertise as an
alternative educator).

But you are absolutely right, in that a college degree would have been
necessary if i wanted to work full time as employee at the same level
(though with lesser income) than my consulting work (in both careers) for
the corporate entities and the museums or school systems. Both careers i
was offered fulltime positions by my clients. However, those are the last
kind of jobs this unschooler would want...i treasure my freedom and value
the flexibility of self employment. I get to be the one to *tell* these
mainstrean folks how to do their job...basically how to think outside the
box <g>.

My dh recruites mds for a living...and he will tell you it really doesn't
matter which university a doctor started at for the high level jobs...what
matters is the work experience since acquiring the md degree - not where or
which school you went to in your twenties.


>Of course. I think the original discussion was revolving around a young
>person getting a general/Liberal arts degree.

I believe the original discussion was about a parent supporting their
teenager in acquiring a undergraduate degree at an early age simply for the
purpose of having the peice of paper so she can put it all behind her
(satisfying mainstream criteria) and get on with living her life. As
unschoolers i don't want my kids to have to wait until they've completed a
college degree to start living their lives.

Today in our local unschooling meeting a mom shared her schooled twelve year
olds perspective that he is concerned with how he is doing in school and
what classes he is taking now because it determines what classes he takes in
HS and then which college he gets into and what job he gets so he can retire
at 35 and do whatever he wants too. I laughed, and told her if he wanted to
unschool he could 'retire' now from the system, not wait till he was 35, and
do what he wants to now at 12.

From an unschooling perspective, a person takes a college class because they
are trully interested in the subject matter rather than simply for the sake
of the peice of paper.

Lisa Heyman

>Elissa Jill
>OTN:
>Stitch of the Day Swatch
>silk/wool blend tie front mini sweater
>http://mystikmusings.blogspot.com/
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

_________________________________________________________________
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Lisa Heyman

>From: Cameron Parham <acsp2205@...>
But I also want to give my kids a life foundation which allows them the
freedom to choose carrers which do require a degree if they want. In short,
aren't we aiming for greater freedom? >>>

Unschooling doesn't preclude the freedom to which you refer. In fact, to
the contrary. Our kids know if they choose to persue something that
requires a degree they can accomplish this and will do so with purpose and
joy...the difference here is that they also know they don't need to be
funneled through processes *just in case* of the need or desire to get a
'degree' later in life. My kids know whenever they decide something is
important to them, they can acquire the tools to accomplish their goal
because they've always lived their lives experiencing self direction, self
competency in finding the support and resources that exist to accomplish
their desires at any given time. This is the preparation/foundation
unschooling gives our kids for life long learning.

>>I'd love to hear thoughts on this, and whether there seems to come a time
>>when a person/child may desire to do a course of study which would
>>necessitate memorization/bookwork>>

Well yes of course there may very well come a time that memorization or book
work is necessary to accomplish or build competency in an area of interest.
For example, my dd who loves to sew recently recognized that knowing
division and multiplication would faciliate her craft set out to learn what
we would call the multiplication table...but is learning it not through rote
memorization but through her own methodology that is meaningful to how her
mind works...from writing lists of numbers, creating her own charts and
using the abacus. Now - i did show her a picture of the multiplication
table but this was chaotic to her eyes and useless to her.

My neighbors always unschooled child at age 12 taught himself the
multiplication table so he could more easily create his computer
animation/graphic work because he recognized the need for this.

Unschooling doesn't preclude classes or books for learning...these are
tools. Its more of a question of who decides that someone ought to take a
class or learn through the book? And for what purpose? Because the person
is interested or because someone else says its necessary.

Lisa Heyman





....this seemed to be the case in the Colfaxes' book, Homeschooling for
> Excellence. I'd love to hear some thoughts on this...
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Danielle Conger <danielle.conger@...>
>To: [email protected]
>Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 6:22:42 AM
>Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Early Diplomas? (long)
>
>Ren Allen wrote:
> >
> > My spouse and I are living proof that you DON'T need a college degree
> > to be fulfilled and successful. I know a LOT of people that are very
> > successful at their chosen career path without a degree.
> >
>
>And lots and lots of folks with degrees who never even use them!
>
>--
>~~Danielle
>Emily (9), Julia (8), Sam (6)
>http://www.organicl earning.blogspot .com
>
>~*~*~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~ *
>
>Connections: ezine of unschooling and mindful parenting
>http://connections. organiclearning. org
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office
Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/

Julie Peters

Thanks for all the replies. However, I think some of you may have
missed my point.

First of all, this is something my DD wants. We have discussed
the "no need" issues before. She needs the security of the "papers"
for HER peace of mind. (Please note she spent 6 years in PS!)
Please, also understand this is NOT something we are "pushing" her
into. This was HER desire, her want. It IS our comprimise. And,
yes, we have looked for loop holes...but that is no different
than "flying under the radar". We have just chosen a legal loop
hole. I agree with a diploma isn't nessecary to be happy or
successful. But I also believe there are cases that a diploma would
be nessecary...especially based on the fact that DD WANTS one and
wants to do it NOW.

Second, the idea behind this isn't that she'll "stop" learning or
that she "has" to learn prescribed things or that she will be doing
something other than what makes her happy. The idea is: if all she
wants is the paper…why should she have to do all of the stuff she
doesn't want to do to get it (like go to school)? If working
towards an early degree is what she wants and it makes her happy…
isn't that reason enough?

Third, our thoughts are: why make her wait? There are no rules by
any authority stating that she has to be a certain age for a HS
diploma or a college degree. If she wants to do it, it'll make her
happy, and can pull it off at this point in her life...WHY should we
stop her?

Most here will emphatically state that Unschooling is about letting
the child make choices about their learning and happiness, to not
let society dictate what a child can and cannot do, to let the whole
child decide what feels best and meets their needs…why then does it
seem like you're saying otherwise now? If your 8 year old said he
wanted to learn about physics on the University level…even choosing
to attend classes at the institution…would you hold him back because
he's 8 or because you don't "believe" he needs to…or would you find
a way to let him follow his desire and support him…even if his goal
was to be a degreed/certified Physics Professor teaching in that
institution? BTW, did I mention that my DD's desire is to be a PS
teacher!!!??? So, Liberal Arts would be an "effective" degree for
her…if you want to look at it that way.

Also, we look at it this way: whether she gets the degree or not
doesn't matter…it's that she is trying for something she wants. She
set a goal and wants to work for it. So yes, we are excited and
proud of and for her…no different than a kid learning to tie hisown
shoes. You all brag when your children have set forth goals (even
if informally) and strive to meet them…why should our situation be
different?

However, we also know that she is still a child, and with that said,
children often change their minds quickly. She may decide this path
isn't for her and move onto something else. And if that is the
case, it would be a relief to not have dished out excessive $$ and
time for something she puts down. If we/she had…it would only
empahsize the senses of dissapointment and failure in the long run…I
don't want to put her through that.

<<< I believe the original discussion was about a parent supporting
their teenager in acquiring a undergraduate degree at an early age
simply for the purpose of having the piece of paper so she can put
it all behind her (satisfying mainstream criteria) and get on with
living her life. As unschoolers I don't want my kids to have to wait
until they've completed a college degree to start living their
lives. >>>

BTW, thanks so much, Lisa, for your POV…I think you got what I was
trying to say and summed it up nicely.

Julie Peters

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: acsp2205@...
Although I totally disagree with our culture's wasteful trend of
sending almost
everyone to college, and I would never suugest someone go to college
just to go,
there is no getting around the fact that for some careers you have to
have a
reputable college degree, not just a piece of paper. I am not saying
this is
ideal, only true. The example of a physician is a good one; also a
researcher in
most fields, physical therapist, etc. I'd never value anyone according
to any
societal label, and I know for happiness, many people don't need a
degree.

-=-=--=

Agreed.

-=-=-=-

But I also want to give my kids a life foundation which allows them
the freedom to
choose carrers which do require a degree if they want.

-=-=-=-

The FOUNDATION which will allow him the *most* freedom will be the
knowledge that he has many ways of learning whatever he desires. To
know that learning is *good* is the best foundation a person can have!

Schools teach that learning is drudgery. Boring. Something you do
because you *have* to. That a piece of paper holds power.

I want my boys to know that their MINDS hold the power. That they are
capable of learning and unlearning. That the world is bigger than *any*
school.

That foundation you're talking about is only possible when you know
that you are capable of going after what you want.

-=-=-=-=-

In short, aren't we aiming for greater freedom?

-=-=-=-

Yeah. Righht now. Not after graduation.

-=-=-=-

I'd love to hear thoughts on this, and whether
there seems to come a time when a person/child may desire to do a
course of
study which would necessitate memorization/bookwork....this seemed to
be the
case in the Colfaxes' book, Homeschooling for
Excellence. I'd love to hear some thoughts on this...

-=-=-=-=

The Colfax kids did a LOT of bookwork. Parents were both
academians---LOVE that bookwork. Pushed it, in fact. So they don't
really count.

I've never met a crowd that can memorize better than the
Pokemon/YuGiOh! fans! <G>

But did you mean multplication tables and Shakespeare? <g>

Those who love learning---the process, the results, the questioning,
everything about it---usually have no problem fitting into college life
and all its bookwork. Some may even migrate that way naturally.

If the child has a love of learning, I'm really not worried. It's when
learning becomes hard/boring/senseless/futile (as it did when Cameron
was in 5th & 6th grades) that I begin to freak.



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org



________________________________________________________________________
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plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "Julie Peters"
<julieannpeters@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for all the replies. However, I think some of you may have
> missed my point.

Julie, no offense, but you asked for input, even said: "Are we
nuts?" Maybe you meant it rhetorically. That wasn't clear.

> Most here will emphatically state that Unschooling is about
letting
> the child make choices about their learning and happiness, to not
> let society dictate what a child can and cannot do, to let the
whole
> child decide what feels best and meets their needs?why then does
it
> seem like you're saying otherwise now?

I think the key is right in the middle of that statement: "the whole
child". Schools leave people damaged. Wanting school goals and
school solutions comes from that damage. Acheiving school goals
doesn't move a person closer to healing that damage.

When my stepson first moved in with us and was in school I did his
homework for him. That way the school had what it wanted and he
didn't have to do the school stuff. But it didn't help him deschool.
He was still stuck, and our family was still stuck, just in a
different way.

> She needs the security of the "papers"
> for HER peace of mind.

The really serious thing to consider is whether having papers will
give her the security she is looking for. They certainly won't
be "proof" that she has learned something or achieved some goal, so
its possible that having the diploma will end up leaving her feeling
less secure, not more. It certainly begs the question - what happens
if someone "finds out"? That's a question that could end up haunting
her and leaving her feeling even more insecure than she does now.

Your dd is afraid. That may not be something you can easily fix,
mom - and that's hard to swallow. We all want to ease our kids
suffering and do it Right Now! But sometimes our desire to help
leads us to distract our kids and ourselves from the very issues we
and they need to work on and move through in order to go on growing
as people. The diploma is a distraction. In a way, its an
Invalidation of her fears - fears that without school she won't
learn, won't be good enough, won't be desirable, won't be
successful. Once she has it, if she's still fearful, she'll be less
likely to admit it - she *should* be happy, she got what she
*wanted*. Guilt added to fear.

> You all brag when your children have set forth goals (even
> if informally) and strive to meet them?why should our situation be
> different?
>

The day before we informed the school we were pulling Ray out,
he "decided" to stay. He was panicking. He didn't care about school.
He didn't want to be there - but he'd been there 7yrs, it was what
he "knew". There was a story on NPR awhile back about a flood in a
town of circus professionals. The elephants drowned bc they refused
to leave their homes. They panicked and stuck with what they knew.

When kids are deschooling they need a Lot of emotional support.
They need us to be able to look past their stated needs and wants to
the underlying messages of loss and helplessness. They need help
moving beyond that loss and helplessness. That's challenging!
especially when *we're* deschooling right along with them,
struggling with our own fears.

> You all brag when your children have set forth goals (even
> if informally) and strive to meet them?why should our situation be
> different?

I'm reading here that one of your fears is that as an unschooler,
you lose the chance of bragging rights you had access to with a kid
in school. You won't ever, ever get one of those bumper stickers,
you won't get to send out invites to her graduation, you don't get
to keep the yearbooks in the cedar chest with the first shoes and
lock of hair and lost tooth. You're trying to substitute "early
degrees" so you can get back some of those bragging rights.

The papers won't help you grieve for those things. They won't help
you or her become whole.

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: julieannpeters@...

Thanks for all the replies. However, I think some of you may have
missed my point.

-=-=-=--=

I really don't think I missed the point at all. I understand what you
are trying for. I just don't think it's unschooling in even the
broasdest sense.

John Holt's idea was to NOT do school. Not do it faster!

-=-=-=-=-

First of all, this is something my DD wants. We have discussed
the "no need" issues before. She needs the security of the "papers"
for HER peace of mind. (Please note she spent 6 years in PS!)
Please, also understand this is NOT something we are "pushing" her
into. This was HER desire, her want. It IS our comprimise. And,
yes, we have looked for loop holes...but that is no different
than "flying under the radar". We have just chosen a legal loop
hole. I agree with a diploma isn't nessecary to be happy or
successful. But I also believe there are cases that a diploma would
be nessecary...especially based on the fact that DD WANTS one and
wants to do it NOW.

-=-=-=-=-

I get that she wants it.

I also understand how heavy peer/societal pressure is at 13.

Cameron had those same ideas at 13 when he left school. He was being
told by all his friends that he would be stupid, not get a diploma, and
never get a job. <g>

I told him that I knew it was hard, but that if he could just be
patient.... it wouldn't be long before his friends all HATED school and
couldn't wait to be done so that their lives could *finally* begin.
They'd complain about their teachers, their classes and how stupid
school was.

I was right. <g> It wasn't two years before high school was a reality.
Then *Camern* has the great life. Unschooling.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Second, the idea behind this isn't that she'll "stop" learning or
that she "has" to learn prescribed things or that she will be doing
something other than what makes her happy. The idea is: if all she
wants is the paper…why should she have to do all of the stuff she
doesn't want to do to get it (like go to school)? If working
towards an early degree is what she wants and it makes her happy…
isn't that reason enough?

-=-=-=-=-

She IS doing all the stuff to get it. Jumping through their
hoops---just in her own way. It's still jumping, and they're still
hoops.

And she *may* stop learning---or at least stop finding it fun and
exciting! To get the diplomas, she WILL have to learn prescribed
things---that's how schools work!

-=-=-=-=-=-

Third, our thoughts are: why make her wait? There are no rules by
any authority stating that she has to be a certain age for a HS
diploma or a college degree. If she wants to do it, it'll make her
happy, and can pull it off at this point in her life...WHY should we
stop her?

-=-=-=-=-=-

You shouldn't. But I doubt it will like like what she thinks it'll look
like. Be realistic. Examine it further. Maybe we're all wrong! <g>

-==-=-=-

Most here will emphatically state that Unschooling is about letting
the child make choices about their learning and happiness, to not
let society dictate what a child can and cannot do, to let the whole
child decide what feels best and meets their needs…why then does it
seem like you're saying otherwise now?

-=-=-=-=-

Unschooling IS those things---and MORE. But it's more about learning
through living, not an accelerated course in diploma-seeking.

And the silly thing is: she IS letting society dictate that she needs
two diplomas! Does *she* not see that?

-=-=-=-==-

If your 8 year old said he wanted to learn about physics on the
University level…even choosing
to attend classes at the institution…would you hold him back because
he's 8 or because you don't "believe" he needs to…or would you find
a way to let him follow his desire and support him…even if his goal
was to be a degreed/certified Physics Professor teaching in that
institution?

-=-=-=-=-=-

I;d make every effort to show him many different ways to learn about
physics. If we'd exhausted the NATURAL way to learn physics, then yes,
I would help to enroll him in a physics class at the university.

-=-=-=-=-=-

BTW, did I mention that my DD's desire is to be a PS
teacher!!!??? So, Liberal Arts would be an "effective" degree for
her…if you want to look at it that way.

-=-=-=-=-

If she loves public school and believes in it---that's true, right? I
mean, why would someone chose to do something she doesn't believe in?
WHY isn't she in school getting the best education they can provide?
Why does she feel the need to go the homeschooled route?

And too---and accelerated homeschool program in order to TEACH in a
school? I think she'd need to at least be older than the children she
is teaching. If it's not a prerequisite in the school system, I'd be
surprised.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Also, we look at it this way: whether she gets the degree or not
doesn't matter…it's that she is trying for something she wants. She
set a goal and wants to work for it. So yes, we are excited and
proud of and for her…no different than a kid learning to tie hisown
shoes. You all brag when your children have set forth goals (even
if informally) and strive to meet them…why should our situation be
different?

-=-=-=-=-

It's not about bragging rights. It's about the WHY she feels it's
necessary.

Hell. it's not even that. She can do whatever floats her boat---and she
can change her mind tomorrow.

But calling it unschooling?---it's not.

-=-=-=-=

However, we also know that she is still a child, and with that said,
children often change their minds quickly. She may decide this path
isn't for her and move onto something else. And if that is the
case, it would be a relief to not have dished out excessive $$ and
time for something she puts down. If we/she had…it would only
empahsize the senses of dissapointment and failure in the long run…I
don't want to put her through that.

-=-=-=-=-

I'm not understanding that. Not that she could (and probably will)
change her mind. But the failure and disappointment thingy.

If we know we can start and stop whenever we want---where's the failure
and disappointment in it?

-=-===-

<<< I believe the original discussion was about a parent supporting
their teenager in acquiring a undergraduate degree at an early age
simply for the purpose of having the piece of paper so she can put
it all behind her (satisfying mainstream criteria) and get on with
living her life. As unschoolers I don't want my kids to have to wait
until they've completed a college degree to start living their
lives. >>>

BTW, thanks so much, Lisa, for your POV…I think you got what I was
trying to say and summed it up nicely.

-=-=-=-=-

But what Lisa also said was that she doesn't want her children to think
that their lives start AFTER they get a degree. They're living rich
lives NOW.



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org





________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
=0

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 14, 2007, at 12:40 PM, Julie Peters wrote:

> Most here will emphatically state that Unschooling is about letting
> the child make choices about their learning and happiness, to not
> let society dictate what a child can and cannot do, to let the whole
> child decide what feels best and meets their needs�why then does it
> seem like you're saying otherwise now?

But society *has* dictated what she can and can't do. Some message
from society has taken root in her there's a hole in her a diploma
will fill.

If a child who has gone to school wants to do a curriculum in a box,
that isn't unschooling.

I think you're missing the point that people aren't saying to stop
her, but that to call what she's doing unschooling makes it confusing.

If it will make her happy, if she knows you're fine with her decision
not to continue at any point, that's helpful but not unschooling

> If your 8 year old said he
> wanted to learn about physics on the University level�even choosing
> to attend classes at the institution�would you hold him back because
> he's 8 or because you don't "believe" he needs to

At 13 my daughter started taking college math classes her father
teaches. She did it for fun not because she felt she might need them
in the future. I do consider that unschooling.

It's not *what* a child does that fits or doesn't fit with the
unschooling philosophy. It's *why* a child wants to do it. I consider
my daughter unschooling when she's sitting in a college math class --
or even in the high school art class she's now taking -- because
she's doing them out of interest not out of fear or as hoops to jump
through to get a diploma.

But a child who was taking classes in order to get a diploma, I
wouldn't consider unschooling.

When my daughter goes to college she'll be a college student, not an
unschooler because she'll be following a path laid out for her by
someone else to get a piece of paper. (It *could* be argued otherwise
that she an unschooler because she's chosen to be there, but
stretching the definition that far won't help someone understand
unschooling better.)

Just because you're finding your own route to a diploma doesn't make
it unschooling. If the goal is to jump through hoops to get a
diploma, it doesn't fit the philosophy of unschooling.

Unschooling isn't a badge of honor to be proudly displayed. It's a
philosophy. You might call what you're doing helping her pursue her
goals, but it's just confusing to call it unschooling.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cameron Parham

This really strikes home with me. I love this. Are you familiar with the concept of one's locus of control? It is basically the idea that some people feel as you describe below, and others feel that they are largely at the mercy of things outside their own control. What I really want to allow my kids to develop is an internal, rather than an external locus of control. And of course it stands to reason that this is exactly one of the things that can not be 'given' or 'taught'. I really find your statement helpful that they don't need to be funnelled through a process "just in case." That was said in a way that my heart could really hear it and not just my head. Thanks!

----- Original Message ----
From: Lisa Heyman <Lmanathome@...>
To: [email protected]; SMA@...
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 10:53:26 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Early Diplomas? (long)

>From: Cameron Parham <acsp2205@yahoo. com>
But I also want to give my kids a life foundation which allows them the
freedom to choose carrers which do require a degree if they want. In short,
aren't we aiming for greater freedom? >>>

Unschooling doesn't preclude the freedom to which you refer. In fact, to
the contrary. Our kids know if they choose to persue something that
requires a degree they can accomplish this and will do so with purpose and
joy...the difference here is that they also know they don't need to be
funneled through processes *just in case* of the need or desire to get a
'degree' later in life. My kids know whenever they decide something is
important to them, they can acquire the tools to accomplish their goal
because they've always lived their lives experiencing self direction, self
competency in finding the support and resources that exist to accomplish
their desires at any given time. This is the preparation/ foundation
unschooling gives our kids for life long learning.

>>I'd love to hear thoughts on this, and whether there seems to come a time
>>when a person/child may desire to do a course of study which would
>>necessitate memorization/ bookwork> >

Well yes of course there may very well come a time that memorization or book
work is necessary to accomplish or build competency in an area of interest.
For example, my dd who loves to sew recently recognized that knowing
division and multiplication would faciliate her craft set out to learn what
we would call the multiplication table...but is learning it not through rote
memorization but through her own methodology that is meaningful to how her
mind works...from writing lists of numbers, creating her own charts and
using the abacus. Now - i did show her a picture of the multiplication
table but this was chaotic to her eyes and useless to her.

My neighbors always unschooled child at age 12 taught himself the
multiplication table so he could more easily create his computer
animation/graphic work because he recognized the need for this.

Unschooling doesn't preclude classes or books for learning...these are
tools. Its more of a question of who decides that someone ought to take a
class or learn through the book? And for what purpose? Because the person
is interested or because someone else says its necessary.

Lisa Heyman

....this seemed to be the case in the Colfaxes' book, Homeschooling for
> Excellence. I'd love to hear some thoughts on this...
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Danielle Conger <danielle.conger@ gmail.com>
>To: unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com
>Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 6:22:42 AM
>Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Early Diplomas? (long)
>
>Ren Allen wrote:
> >
> > My spouse and I are living proof that you DON'T need a college degree
> > to be fulfilled and successful. I know a LOT of people that are very
> > successful at their chosen career path without a degree.
> >
>
>And lots and lots of folks with degrees who never even use them!
>
>--
>~~Danielle
>Emily (9), Julia (8), Sam (6)
>http://www.organicl earning.blogspot .com
>
>~*~*~*~*~*~ * ~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~ *
>
>Connections: ezine of unschooling and mindful parenting
>http://connections. organiclearning. org
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office
Live! http://clk.atdmt. com/MRT/go/ mcrssaub00500014 11mrt/direct/ 01/




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~If your 8 year old said he wanted to learn about physics on the
University level…even choosing
to attend classes at the institution…would you hold him back because
he's 8 or because you don't "believe" he needs to…or would you find
a way to let him follow his desire and support him…even if his goal
was to be a degreed/certified Physics Professor teaching in that
institution?~~

If my 8y.o. was interested in physics, my first reaction wouldn't be
to even TALK about classes. The natural way to learn physics, is to
PLAY. How many 8y.o.'s would even know it's called "physics" unless
someone told them??

Let's say they DID know it was called something labeled "physics" and
wanted to learn more(even though they'd never had anything they were
interested in, divided into any subjects). First of all, they probably
wouldn't see it as "studying" anything...just an interest. We'd find a
phycisist to hang out with, or play games or any number of options
that would involve a more natural way to connect the dots of information.

Formal classes would be the bottom of the list, especially for an
8y.o......or even an 18y.o. unless they had decided they were now
interested in some kind of formal study. It's not unheard of, for an
unschooled child to follow formal studies. But at 8? or 12? Most of
them are happily following their interests too much to be bothered by
thinking about "studying" anything.:)

I would be trying to help my child let go of the notion that they need
any paper to get on with their lives. I would focus on how to help
them be comfortable with where they are at, rather than playing into
the degree/diploma game. If she really thinks it's that important, why
wouldn't she want to actually attain it by doing something valuable to
her throughout the process?

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Deborah

Hi Julie. :)

My personal opinion is that CLEP tests can be a heck of a lot of fun,
and if she wants to go take a whole bunch of them, she should go for
it. What the heck. :)

I have serious reservations about the High School diploma part of the
equation, however. I can't fathom how cheating and lying in order to
scam the system could possibly result in "peace of mind" for anyone.

Perhaps I misread the original post?

Deborah in IL

Melissa

Josh (at age 11) got it in his head that he wanted to learn Algebra. It came out of a history
channel program about math (I never even saw it) He asked for a textbook, so we got one
(free through the library, thankgoodness) and started to flip through it. He decided he
wanted to do a chapter a day, and after about two days, decided that 1) he knew most of
the concepts and 2) that book work was boring as hell and was ruining his fun. :-P He
skimmed through the rest of it, and found some interesting 'puzzles' and did those. For
fun he'd write equations on the white board and ask me to solve them. Usually I'd get
some answer like x=265,734.0984 lol!


He went through the same stages with handwriting and the constitution during our period
of deschooling. What he realized was that having a textbook line it all up for you was no
more authentic than learning from reading a regular library book and/or just living it. His
handwriting has gotten no better, but it hasn't gotten worse, and emotionally he can
finally live with it (after two years of everyone giving him crap about it) and write only what
he needs to. He downloaded 'Mario Teaches Typing' so he can improve his WPM. He
doesn't have to read any books about constitutional law, he can refer to case judgements
on a provisional basis and refer back to the actual wording if he wants to. I picked up a
little book with the bill of rights and the preamble in it, he was thrilled.

He knows these things with no formal study, and he loves them and knows them better
than most adults I know. Who else reads the constitution for fun? But his passion is
equality for all, and fairness under the law.

Just another view
Melissa

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
> Formal classes would be the bottom of the list, especially for an
> 8y.o......or even an 18y.o. unless they had decided they were now
> interested in some kind of formal study. It's not unheard of, for an
> unschooled child to follow formal studies. But at 8? or 12? Most of
> them are happily following their interests too much to be bothered by
> thinking about "studying" anything.:)

taylortribe06

"We decided (as a family...it is so cool to think we all agreed on
this...even DH!) that we would have DD finish/get her HS diploma
early...June 2008...she'll be 14 yo!"





Julie,

My daughter went to kindergarten twice, then we decided to
bring her(and her 2nd grade brother) home to school. We did not
unschool, but did not use a curriculum and were VERY relaxed
about "schooling". If I had had more courage and the knowlegde and
experience I have now, we would have unschooled.
I hated school, it hindered my learning. And it was quite
frustrating to begin to learn about something interesting and be
forced to switch to another topic, never being able to really get to
dig deeper.
When schooling with my children, I followed my gut and did not
force much. I encouraged them to choose what they wanted to
learn/experience for as short or as long as they wished.
I think the difference between "my" schooling and unschooling is
that I required them to report to me weekly on what they had been
learning, either through a project (raising rabbits. poster, science
experiment...anything) or report or speech for our immediate family.
I also forced them to do math facts(which they hated) and miquon,
then key to series math(which they loved) and write something
(anything) every day. Unschooling would not require a product, or
proof of learning. I already knew what they were doing, I just felt
better about doing something "official".

I had never heard of unschooling, although I instinctively
embraced it to the best of my ability. Every other homeschooler I
knew was using a rigorous curriculum(which felt like the old school
I hated). I felt pressure to perform from family, friends, husband.
I flet guilty for not "doing school" even though I knew my children
were learning and living more fully than they ever could by
doing "school".
Whenever we tried to "school", I knew I was killing thier drive
to live and learn so I would quit. I felt like a freak. I felt
guilty for not "doing school" because I was claiming to the world
that I was homeschooling, but I really wasnt ( I didnt know that
what we were doing had a name).
All I was doing was giving them tools to teach themselves. Plus,
I hoped that my children would choose to learn a trade and do
something they love rather than the traditional "you must go to
college to make it in life" thing. People considered me crazy when
they learned that I was not encouraging my children to attend
college unless it was necessary for thier chosen career( doctor,
lawyer ect) I think it is foolish to waste your time and money on
courses toward a degree that they may never use.
Anyhow... we were happily living our lives and in my gut, I knew
we were doing it almost right. I also experienced that they were
happier, and more well rounded, better adjusted and better educated
than the children thier same age in ps or other homeschoolers using
traditional curriculum.

My plan was to NEVER send them to school and hoped they
would learn a trade to support themselves. My goal as "teacher" was
not to teach them stuff, but to show them how and where to get
information so they could learn absolutly anything they wanted to
know. I feel that if a person knows how to get information, then
they can do anything they chooose.
I also wanted them to be able to attend college when they were
14 if they wished. Neither of my children wanted to do that(which
was fine with me, I just wanted to be sure they would not grow up
and be angry cuz i kept them out of school).
When my daughter was 14 I felt that she had "graduated"
my "school".She had the knowledge and maturity to physically make it
in this world as an adult, but she was not emotionally ready to go
off and work or have an apartment, so I encouraged her to follow
her dreams and interests wherever they may go.

When she was 15 I moved to my parents to care for them while
they were terminally ill( Alzheimers and cancer). I decided that I
did not want them home all day and night for months with no adults,
so I sent them to school. My daughter had always dreamed of going
to school, so she was very excited. She was in 11th grade and got
good grades and had a wonderful time.

The following year she wanted to go to school for her senior
year. I did not want her to go, but I also felt that she had
completed her education and she would have wonderful memories of
a "senior" year. I felt that it would not damage her to go and that
if I denied her this wish, then she may hold resentment and have
regrets as an adult for an experience she dreamed about since she
was little. She was not interested in much else except going to
college, but did not feel ready to attend. She just wanted to have
fun and experience life as a "normal" teenager.

I do not force her to go to school. If she wants to come
home from school early or not go to school at all, I excuse her and
she comes home. If she were to want to drop out tomorrow, she could
do so. If she flunked every class, I would not care because I see
this as a social experience, not an educational one.
It is quite interesting, since I do not impose bedtimes and
curfues (sp?)or anything like that, that she is home and in bed
early on school nights and refuses to miss school unless she is ill.
She even passes up day long shopping trips to the big malls to
attend school. She manages her time well and faithfully does her
homework.
She has set a goal of graduating with a good grade point average
and attending University (rather than community college). She lives
her life as an adult but does check in with me as to where she is
going and with who and when she thinks she will be returning, which
is a considerate thing to do with anyone you live with.

She tells me that the way the schools "teach" is extreemly
inferior to natural learning. She stuffs facts and spits them back
out for the test, and does not retain the information. Also the
stuff is boring because the information is fragmented and
irrellivent (sp?) to her life and interests. She does enjoy her
classes and assignments that allow her to research and experience a
topic and the teachers are always pleased at her ability to express
herself.

She loves the social interaction with all the teens ( minus
the occasional drama). She goes to all the school functions and
dances and parties. She is a member of the cheerleading team and
wanted to join other clubs and teams, but the ones she is interested
in conflict with her cheerleading schedule. She is experiencing her
senior year to its fullest and is planning on having the full
college experience, with dorm life and work study and all that.

I would never have chosen these things for her, because I
believe that that sort of schooling is more of a hindrance to
getting on with your life then really living...but to her, these
things are "rights of passage" and are a part of her social
experience rather than a learning experience, although she takes
getting a degree seriously.
She is aware there are other ways to achieve these educational
goals. She is an individual, and does not share every belief that I
share ( actually she is quite different than me and has chosen a
very different lifestyle than I have modeled for her), I will
support her no matter what paths she chooses to follow.

I have not shared much about my oldest, since he was not
interested in school or a degree. He is 18. He attended 1/2 a year
of high school and felt it was a waste of his time, although not a
terrible experience. He knows that he learns more effectively on his
own, and the material they taught was stuff he already knew.
He is amazing with computers, writing songs and music, guitar,
piano, singing and other things. He enjoys a wide variety of things,
is reliable and people enjoy him. He has turned out to be a
wonderful man.
He has chosen to enlist in the Navy and will be attending
college to learn more about computer stuff on base for 2 years, then
go on to active duty for 4 years. He is considering a career in the
Navy so he can retire when he is 50 and have enough energy and money
pursue his interests for the rest of his life.
It is very sad for me to have him in the military, but I am also
very proud of him. It is a huge thing to give up your constitutional
rights to serve your country. I tried to gently discourage him, but
I have never been good at not supporting the things my children feel
are important, or things they want to do, so as soon as I realized
that he really wanted to be in the Navy, I became his biggest
supporter. He is only in boot camp right now, but he writes home
regularly stating that it is easier than he imagined and he really
likes it.

I have 9 and 11 yo boys. I had never really gotten around
to "doing school" every day or in any way regularly. It was sort of
hit and miss. They learned to read, do math and other "normal"
things without much "teaching" from me. They even learned to write,
but now I wish I had taught them how to form thier letters a
standard way.
During my parents illnes and the year before I did not "do
school" at all with them. When I was able to " do school" I realized
that thier learning had progressed at the same rate as it would have
it we had been "doing school" and in some areas was accelerated(
science, nature, math).
I always suspected that people do not need to be forced to
learn, but I had not really just completely let them go thier own
way.
During those 2 years they did not really do anything that looked
too much like school. They spent most of thier time in our creek,
climbing trees, collecting critters, experiencing nature. They
observed the plant and animal life grow and change every day for 2
years. They saw tadpoles become frogs, snakes shed thier skins, bugs
eat bugs, plants bloom and fade and come back the following year.
They watched neat programs on tv. They read when they felt like
it...or not. they wrote letters, drew pictures, painted. cooked,
cleaned, built things, help build and fix things, got dirty, played
on the "leap pad", played video games, watched movies and many other
things that children love to do when they are not bogged down being
forced to read and write and produce things that are not important
to them. They just lived life fully, played hard and had fun!
If someone had been observing our life, it would look as though
nothing academic was going on in our home, but they learned anyhow.

I always said that my children learn in spite of me, that
they will learn more and better if I just get out of the way and let
it happen. My youngest boys have proven this theory to be true. Now
I hope my husband will see it so he will quit bugging me about when
I am going to start "doing school" with the boys again.

I intended to share my daughters desire and experience with
school and hopes for college, but I also ended up sharing a chunk of
our history. I wrote with the hope that our experiences will
encourage you to continue assisting your daughter find HER way in
life, no matter what others think of it.

Kathryn

Lisa Heyman

>-----Original Message-----
>From: julieannpeters@...
> Thanks for all the replies. However, I think some of you may have
>missed my point.
>
>
><<< I believe the original discussion was about a parent supporting
>their teenager in acquiring a undergraduate degree at an early age
>simply for the purpose of having the piece of paper so she can put
>it all behind her (satisfying mainstream criteria) and get on with
>living her life. As unschoolers I don't want my kids to have to wait
>until they've completed a college degree to start living their
>lives. >>>
>
>BTW, thanks so much, Lisa, for your POV���I think you got what I was
>trying to say and summed it up nicely.
>
>-=-=-=-=-
>
>But what Lisa also said was that she doesn't want her children to think
>that their lives start AFTER they get a degree. They're living rich
>lives NOW.
>~Kelly

Kelly got it right.
Julie - i did understand your pov...BUT i don't agree with it.

You said your child wants to be a teacher and thinks that she needs to do
certain things to become one - like hs and college diiploma. Does she know
she can be a teacher NOW? For instance, she can offer a class to
homeschoolers sharing her knowledge (teaching) something she likes to do -
NOW. She can volunteer at local rec programs or library offering her
knowledge and skills to kids (or even adults) - NOW. Offer to assist
coaches or teachers at community centers, churches or temples, or other
facility (private or public) that caters to young people NOW.

When someone talks about something they want to do in the future - thinking
they don't have the 'required' credentials...its time to think outside the
box...the required creditial is called desire. Volunteering is one great
way to create many opportunities. What does she like to do? What would she
like to teach. Why not put her NOW time doing what she wants rather than
rushing through her young years. postponing her desire Heck college diploma
can happen at anytime (hs diploma is not necessary for college). If she's
interested in learning about education theory and practice she can read
about it or take a course...AND she can also 'just do it.' I'm not saying
never to go to college or never to get college diploma - i am saying what
the hell is the rush or importance of doing it quickly? Especially when she
can live her dreams NOW. And she may even discover that some folks are
willing to pay for her skills - NOW.

Real life example of unschooling at work: I know a young person who started
teaching classes when she was 9yo. And at 13 has a following...there are
kids who would take anything she offers because of her enthusiasm and gifts
as a teacher - she has experience and an established reputation. she has
built real life credentials and competency.

It didn't matter that she could or couldn't read. It didn't matter that she
didn't have diploma or degrees. What matters is that she has confidence
that she can create what she wants. Nobody told her she couldn't do
something because of a peice of paper, or because of her age. She found
ways to actualize her dreams NOW. She IS NOW.

Lisa Heyman

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