Julie v.

Wondering what other's say or don't in situations where people make comments
concerning controlling children?

In the situations that I've had arise, the people either don't know we unschool or if they do
don't know much about it. Some recent comments have been the following:

-Two neighbor kids were over playing w/our 4 year old and my dh & I were conversing
with their parents in our backyard. Damek (our 4 year old), came up a couple of times
asking for things (can't remember what now), and the neighbor made the comment "yea,
our kids were very demanding at that age also, we put a stop to that quick".

-My son just had his 5th birthday party yesterday and had a couple of neighbor friends
over, one of the mom's came to get her son and saw that the boys were all enamoured
with a couple of new gameboy games my son got. The sister (age 9) of the boy was there
saying how much she wanted a gameboy and the mom said "if we bought you a gameboy
you would never read books", and then went on to say "it's hard enough to get you to read
without having a gameboy". The girl then said "my mom said that if I read a lot I can have
a gameboy", and then the mom said "maybe".

-My sister & her husband were watching our 4 year old along with their 3 kids. We came
to pick him up and the boys were still having fun playing, so we stayed awhile and talked.
Then my nephew wanted to watch a video, but my sister said it was too late and it was
getting to be bedtime. My son said "well he wants to watch it", and my sister said "just
because he wants to do something doesn't mean he gets to do it". My son just kind of
looked dumbfounded, as he doesn't encounter this attitude from us.

In the first situation I feel like I could have said something as she was addressing us in
particular. The second situation was sort of between the girl & the mom, but I was
included in the conversation as the girl was talking to me. Would you say anything or just
keep your mouth shut? I so want to promote unschooling, but I just don't think in these
situations with these types of people they would even attempt to "get" what unschooling is
all about.

What do others do in these types of situations?

Thanks,

Julie

Schuyler

David (dh) is really good at talking about it later. So, later he'd talk
with the girl's mom about how amazing the Pokemon gameboy games are for
reading, how much reading goes on in role playing games, how narrative those
kinds of games are. He might mention some of the studies talking about the
narrative value of video games. But it wouldn't be direct, it wouldn't be
about the girl asking for a gameboy. It would be some side story, something
to maybe get her thinking about video games in a different light.

To the first situation I'd probably have said something along the lines of
thinking I'd miss it if he did stop while smiling and looking fondly at my
son. Something sort of distracted. Maybe even something like "oh, well, they
grow up so fast, I am appreciated so much who he is now."

The last situation would depend on your relationship with your sister. If
you are comfortable teasing her, than maybe you could have said something
like "Wow, you sound just like mom (or dad or some one in your shared past"
and hope that she could see the link. And maybe helped her let her son watch
the video.

I think it is hard to get people to see how being generous with your child
isn't going to produce a spoiled brat. I don't think it is situation where a
snappy comeback will help. It is very easy to make a parent feel defensive
about their decisions. And a defensive parent may make it more difficult for
your son to play with their kids. What is the line, "be the change you want
to see in the world." Help other parents to see how good your life is with
your child by being gentle and loving and watching that child be gentle and
loving in return.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie v." <jlvw@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 4:20 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Snappy Comebacks For Comments About Controlling
Children


> Wondering what other's say or don't in situations where people make
> comments
> concerning controlling children?
>
> In the situations that I've had arise, the people either don't know we
> unschool or if they do
> don't know much about it. Some recent comments have been the following:
>
> -Two neighbor kids were over playing w/our 4 year old and my dh & I were
> conversing
> with their parents in our backyard. Damek (our 4 year old), came up a
> couple of times
> asking for things (can't remember what now), and the neighbor made the
> comment "yea,
> our kids were very demanding at that age also, we put a stop to that
> quick".
>
> -My son just had his 5th birthday party yesterday and had a couple of
> neighbor friends
> over, one of the mom's came to get her son and saw that the boys were all
> enamoured
> with a couple of new gameboy games my son got. The sister (age 9) of the
> boy was there
> saying how much she wanted a gameboy and the mom said "if we bought you a
> gameboy
> you would never read books", and then went on to say "it's hard enough to
> get you to read
> without having a gameboy". The girl then said "my mom said that if I read
> a lot I can have
> a gameboy", and then the mom said "maybe".
>
> -My sister & her husband were watching our 4 year old along with their 3
> kids. We came
> to pick him up and the boys were still having fun playing, so we stayed
> awhile and talked.
> Then my nephew wanted to watch a video, but my sister said it was too late
> and it was
> getting to be bedtime. My son said "well he wants to watch it", and my
> sister said "just
> because he wants to do something doesn't mean he gets to do it". My son
> just kind of
> looked dumbfounded, as he doesn't encounter this attitude from us.
>
> In the first situation I feel like I could have said something as she was
> addressing us in
> particular. The second situation was sort of between the girl & the mom,
> but I was
> included in the conversation as the girl was talking to me. Would you say
> anything or just
> keep your mouth shut? I so want to promote unschooling, but I just don't
> think in these
> situations with these types of people they would even attempt to "get"
> what unschooling is
> all about.
>
> What do others do in these types of situations?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Julie
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Julie v.

Schuyler,

Exactly! I probably should have rephrased the question, as I don't want to make a snide
comment, because I don't want them to get defensive, so usually I just say nothing. I like
the idea of mentioning something as a side note concerning the subject of the comment
that was made. Even though my dh & I are totally committed to radical unschooling, we
still have our share of learning to go, and I think that as it gets more & more comfortable
and like second nature it will be easier for us to just converse ru with other people. Not so
much to convert them, but just to help them understand it.

Thanks,

Julie
http://lerendzonderschool.blogspot.com/



--- In [email protected], "Schuyler" <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>
> David (dh) is really good at talking about it later. So, later he'd talk
> with the girl's mom about how amazing the Pokemon gameboy games are for
> reading, how much reading goes on in role playing games, how narrative those
> kinds of games are. He might mention some of the studies talking about the
> narrative value of video games. But it wouldn't be direct, it wouldn't be
> about the girl asking for a gameboy. It would be some side story, something
> to maybe get her thinking about video games in a different light.
>
> To the first situation I'd probably have said something along the lines of
> thinking I'd miss it if he did stop while smiling and looking fondly at my
> son. Something sort of distracted. Maybe even something like "oh, well, they
> grow up so fast, I am appreciated so much who he is now."
>
> The last situation would depend on your relationship with your sister. If
> you are comfortable teasing her, than maybe you could have said something
> like "Wow, you sound just like mom (or dad or some one in your shared past"
> and hope that she could see the link. And maybe helped her let her son watch
> the video.
>
> I think it is hard to get people to see how being generous with your child
> isn't going to produce a spoiled brat. I don't think it is situation where a
> snappy comeback will help. It is very easy to make a parent feel defensive
> about their decisions. And a defensive parent may make it more difficult for
> your son to play with their kids. What is the line, "be the change you want
> to see in the world." Help other parents to see how good your life is with
> your child by being gentle and loving and watching that child be gentle and
> loving in return.
>
> Schuyler
> www.waynforth.blogspot.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Julie v." <jlvw@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 4:20 PM
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Snappy Comebacks For Comments About Controlling
> Children
>
>
> > Wondering what other's say or don't in situations where people make
> > comments
> > concerning controlling children?
> >
> > In the situations that I've had arise, the people either don't know we
> > unschool or if they do
> > don't know much about it. Some recent comments have been the following:
> >
> > -Two neighbor kids were over playing w/our 4 year old and my dh & I were
> > conversing
> > with their parents in our backyard. Damek (our 4 year old), came up a
> > couple of times
> > asking for things (can't remember what now), and the neighbor made the
> > comment "yea,
> > our kids were very demanding at that age also, we put a stop to that
> > quick".
> >
> > -My son just had his 5th birthday party yesterday and had a couple of
> > neighbor friends
> > over, one of the mom's came to get her son and saw that the boys were all
> > enamoured
> > with a couple of new gameboy games my son got. The sister (age 9) of the
> > boy was there
> > saying how much she wanted a gameboy and the mom said "if we bought you a
> > gameboy
> > you would never read books", and then went on to say "it's hard enough to
> > get you to read
> > without having a gameboy". The girl then said "my mom said that if I read
> > a lot I can have
> > a gameboy", and then the mom said "maybe".
> >
> > -My sister & her husband were watching our 4 year old along with their 3
> > kids. We came
> > to pick him up and the boys were still having fun playing, so we stayed
> > awhile and talked.
> > Then my nephew wanted to watch a video, but my sister said it was too late
> > and it was
> > getting to be bedtime. My son said "well he wants to watch it", and my
> > sister said "just
> > because he wants to do something doesn't mean he gets to do it". My son
> > just kind of
> > looked dumbfounded, as he doesn't encounter this attitude from us.
> >
> > In the first situation I feel like I could have said something as she was
> > addressing us in
> > particular. The second situation was sort of between the girl & the mom,
> > but I was
> > included in the conversation as the girl was talking to me. Would you say
> > anything or just
> > keep your mouth shut? I so want to promote unschooling, but I just don't
> > think in these
> > situations with these types of people they would even attempt to "get"
> > what unschooling is
> > all about.
> >
> > What do others do in these types of situations?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Julie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Katharine Wise

It's hard to hear that kind of thing, isn't it?

I think what is most productive, is doing some of the same kinds of things we do for our own kids. Express empathy, "Yeah, children do need a lot of help -- it can be overwhelming sometimes." To the daughter, "You really want a gameboy, huh?" or to the mother, "You sound pretty worried about her reading" (or maybe not, unless you're willing to get into a longer discussion of her woes:-) You can do that without sharing their feelings or sounding overwhelmed or worried yourself. You could also share your own experiences, although that might be better at some later point especially in the latter 2 instances which were more about other people's kids.

I think the biggest thing we can do is live our own lives joyfully and with confidence. Then, if people don't see us as judging them, they may in time express interest in our choices -- especially people you see regularly or know well like neighbors and family. But if we appear judgmental or zealous, they probably won't be interested now or later.

Katharine





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rachel Salavon

--- In [email protected], "Julie v." <jlvw@...>
wrote:
>
> Wondering what other's say or don't in situations where people
make comments
> concerning controlling children?
>


I have to admit I have stopped trying to convince other people or
win them over to unschooling. John Holt wrote something about it in
one of his books (I can't remember which). Every person has their
understanding of how life is. It is their story of the way things
are -- some would call it their world view. Anytime a new idea is
introduced, that person has to fit it in to their story. If the new
idea doesn't make sense to their story, two things can happen.
Their story must change. Or the idea must be rejected or
discounted. When you introduce a concept as novel as peaceful
parenting, many people will find a way to reject it. Otherwise it
will rock the foundation of their whole understanding of how the
world works. I know that's what happened to me. My story was
profoundly changed by this concept -- although change was slow.

I am willing to talk about unschooling with someone who shows an
interest. But I don't bring it up. Some people get angry or don't
want to hear about it. And no wonder, you are threatening
everything they hold to be true. My mil HAS to believe that the way
she raised her children was the right and best way. It is
fundamental to who she is. She doesn't like to talk much about how
things have changed around our house. Life changing ideas make her
nervous. I can't change her. But she just might be moved by my
children as they grow up.

It is wonderful to live peacefully and generously with children. My
biggest challenge lately has been to extend that generosity and
acceptance to other people.

Shellini Spencer

Hi there,


I am new to this group and reading this post. Please forgive me, but
I am afraid I do not understand.

Aside from the 1st situation, I dont understand WHY it would be an
issue. In the 1st instance, it seems that they offered parenting
advice which was not asked for. Now unless you turned to them and
said, " I wonder if your little ones do that to you, how did you
handle it..."

In the other 2 , it just seems like those are their parents rules. I
know lots of parents who do not let their kids have video games. I
even know some that do not even have a TV in the house. They have
their reasons and their rules, and values... Whether or not you
disagree, aren't those still their rules and their kids?

I am not trying to be the bad person here, if I am missing something,
please explain it to me. I mean, I say things like that to our kids
too.. Just because they want it, does not mean they are going to get
everything they want. Does not have to even do with spoiling them,
that is just how life is. And our kids do have video games, but they
are limited in how long they are allowed to play, and they dont play
everyday... There are so many things to do, I would not want them
hooked on ONE thing all day long..... these are the rules in our
house....

Thank you!
Shellini

Mothers hold their children's hands for a short while, but their
hearts forever.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cameron Parham

This lovely note resonates with me. We are all on our own journey, and really, we must hear where another person actually is to be able to communicate with them at all.


----- Original Message ----
From: Rachel Salavon <rachelsalavon@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, March 4, 2007 8:49:33 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Snappy Comebacks For Comments About Controlling Children

--- In unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com, "Julie v." <jlvw@...>
wrote:
>
> Wondering what other's say or don't in situations where people
make comments
> concerning controlling children?
>

I have to admit I have stopped trying to convince other people or
win them over to unschooling. John Holt wrote something about it in
one of his books (I can't remember which). Every person has their
understanding of how life is. It is their story of the way things
are -- some would call it their world view. Anytime a new idea is
introduced, that person has to fit it in to their story. If the new
idea doesn't make sense to their story, two things can happen.
Their story must change. Or the idea must be rejected or
discounted. When you introduce a concept as novel as peaceful
parenting, many people will find a way to reject it. Otherwise it
will rock the foundation of their whole understanding of how the
world works. I know that's what happened to me. My story was
profoundly changed by this concept -- although change was slow.

I am willing to talk about unschooling with someone who shows an
interest. But I don't bring it up. Some people get angry or don't
want to hear about it. And no wonder, you are threatening
everything they hold to be true. My mil HAS to believe that the way
she raised her children was the right and best way. It is
fundamental to who she is. She doesn't like to talk much about how
things have changed around our house. Life changing ideas make her
nervous. I can't change her. But she just might be moved by my
children as they grow up.

It is wonderful to live peacefully and generously with children. My
biggest challenge lately has been to extend that generosity and
acceptance to other people.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melissa

--- In [email protected], "Julie v." <jlvw@...> wrote:
>
> Wondering what other's say or don't in situations where people make comments
> concerning controlling children?
Depends on the situation. These seemed fairly friendly, so I might say something light and
supportive of our choices. In less comfortable situations, I probably wouldn't say anything,
because some parents will choose to take their embarrassment out on their kids, or
become more harsh to prove a point. My job isn't to promote unschooling per se, but
perhaps model and promote mutual respect and breaking out of mainstream thought.

> -Two neighbor kids were over playing w/our 4 year old and my dh & I were conversing
> with their parents in our backyard. Damek (our 4 year old), came up a couple of times
> asking for things (can't remember what now), and the neighbor made the comment "yea,
> our kids were very demanding at that age also, we put a stop to that quick".
I'd say something like "Oh, we're very thankful that he's comfortable enough to ask for
help. This relationship with us will serve him well when he's facing peer pressure like
drugs or sex."

> -The girl then said "my mom said that if I read a lot I can have
> a gameboy", and then the mom said "maybe".
WIth the girl there, I would say something like "Reading is fun, but I know video games are
excitign too" just something bland and not very meaningful. After the child had left the
area, I would mention how much video games have done to teach our children to read,
cooperate and actually help with social skills. and then let it go, get out my mental floss,
and try to clear my brain from the ickies.

> Then my nephew wanted to watch a video, but my sister said it was too late and it was
> getting to be bedtime. My son said "well he wants to watch it", and my sister said "just
> because he wants to do something doesn't mean he gets to do it". My son just kind of
> looked dumbfounded, as he doesn't encounter this attitude from us.
On this one, I would have made sure to make time to talk to my son about how different
families have different expectations. At that very moment, I would have said to my child,
"I'm so sorry sweetie, that's not an option for them. Can we get ready to go, and we'll talk
more later?" In fact, I have asked my own kids to wait on the videos because little ones in
our house do need to get ready for bed. They are usually okay with it, because they in
general respect the needs and desires of others.

Alice Roddy

These are fun to read and to write as well.




-Two neighbor kids were over playing w/our 4 year old and my dh & I were
conversing

with their parents in our backyard. Damek (our 4 year old), came up a couple of
times

asking for things (can't remember what now), and the neighbor made the comment
"yea,

our kids were very demanding at that age also, we put a stop to that
quick".






Response: I’m glad he comes to me now and I hope he never
stops. I’m just praying he’ll still turn to me for help when he’s a teenager.




-My son just had his 5th birthday party yesterday and had a couple of neighbor
friends

over, one of the mom's came to get her son and saw that the boys were all
enamoured

with a couple of new gameboy games my son got. The sister (age 9) of the boy
was there

saying how much she wanted a gameboy and the mom said "if we bought you a
gameboy

you would never read books", and then went on to say "it's hard
enough to get you to read

without having a gameboy". The girl then said "my mom said that if I
read a lot I can have a gameboy", and then the mom said "maybe".






Response: “Oh, I used to think that giving rewards for doing
things I wanted done was a good idea. Then I read all the research about how
rewards devalue the thing you have to do to get them. Like, if she HAS to read
to get a GameBoy then reading must be some dumb thing no one wants to do for it’s
own sake.”



-My sister & her husband were watching our 4 year old along with their 3
kids. We came

to pick him up and the boys were still having fun playing, so we stayed awhile
and talked.

Then my nephew wanted to watch a video, but my sister said it was too late and
it was

getting to be bedtime. My son said "well he wants to watch it", and
my sister said "just

because he wants to do something doesn't mean he gets to do it". My son
just kind of

looked dumbfounded, as he doesn't encounter this attitude from us.






Response: I don’t know how to touch this one. I’d let it go.




Gramma Alice
Breastfeeding is the biological norm for infants. It is a relationship that provides food, connection, protection from illness to the baby and stress reducing hormones to the mother.





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plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], Shellini Spencer
<shellini@...> wrote:
>> I say things like that to our kids
> too.. Just because they want it, does not mean they are going to
get
> everything they want. Does not have to even do with spoiling
them,
> that is just how life is.

Looking for solutions and alternatives is a great way to help kids
touch base with the underlying needs driving their desires. That's
not something most of *us* learned as kids, so it can take some time
and practice. Finding ways to say "yes" more often is pretty
empowering, though. It doesn't give kids and unrealistic view of the
world - if anything, it helps them be more thoughtful and creative
when it comes to problem-solving.

Its true that, even with the most creative problem solving in the
world, we can't always get what we want. As parents, though, we have
the opportunity to help our kids learn how to cope with that, rather
than shrugging off their wants as inconvenient to us.
Disappointment, sadness and frustration are difficult emotions. Our
kids need help figuring out how to deal with difficult emotions and
they need to know that their feelings are valuble to us.

Its unreasonable to expect children to be sanguine about
disappointment - heck, many adults have trouble dealing with
disappointment! Personally, I think a great deal of parents' wanting
kids to accept "you can't always get what you want" is bc of our own
difficulties. When we can't give our kids what they want, *we* feel
badly but dont' know how to acknowledge and move past that feeling.
Part of unschooling is learning to parent *ourselves*.

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], Shellini Spencer
<shellini@...> wrote:
>> our kids do have video games, but they
> are limited in how long they are allowed to play, and they dont
play
> everyday... There are so many things to do, I would not want them
> hooked on ONE thing all day long..... these are the rules in our
> house....

Have you read this, yet?
http://sandradodd.com/rules

That's a good place to start thinking about "principles" instead of
rules.

I always find that when I'm getting "stuck" going back to my
priciples makes a big difference. Early on in my unschooling
journey, I found that some of what I considered priciples were in
conflict with one another and I had to do some deeper "work" to find
the core values or priciples that I wanted to embody in my life.

In the example above, I'd guess that there's a principle of
moderation, but I'd suggest digging deeper. Why is moderation
important? What's underneath that? Why is getting all wrapped up in
something fun, especially, such a problem? Would it be as much of a
problem if it were something "educational", like reading? I suspect
there are some fears here that need to be examined.

One of the problems with moderation, from an unschooling
perspective, is that people learn most easily from their passions,
and certainly most joyfully. People of all ages will take on amazing
challenges when they are inspired. My stepson will do the very
things playing video games or skateboarding that he flat-out refused
to do in school: he will do dull, repetitive exercises for the
purpose of "getting better" at a particular skill. He actually
*chooses* to do something he doesn't really like bc it forwards his
passions.

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Julie v.

Thanks for the John Holt quote, that is quite profound and certainly explains a lot about
why people are resistant to change.

I think what turned me onto radical unschooling was exactly what you said "it's wonderful
to live peacefully & generously with children". I also agree that it needs to be who I am
with everyone not just my children, and that is something that I work on constantly.


Julie





--- In [email protected], "Rachel Salavon" <rachelsalavon@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "Julie v." <jlvw@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Wondering what other's say or don't in situations where people
> make comments
> > concerning controlling children?
> >
>
>
> I have to admit I have stopped trying to convince other people or
> win them over to unschooling. John Holt wrote something about it in
> one of his books (I can't remember which). Every person has their
> understanding of how life is. It is their story of the way things
> are -- some would call it their world view. Anytime a new idea is
> introduced, that person has to fit it in to their story. If the new
> idea doesn't make sense to their story, two things can happen.
> Their story must change. Or the idea must be rejected or
> discounted. When you introduce a concept as novel as peaceful
> parenting, many people will find a way to reject it. Otherwise it
> will rock the foundation of their whole understanding of how the
> world works. I know that's what happened to me. My story was
> profoundly changed by this concept -- although change was slow.
>
> I am willing to talk about unschooling with someone who shows an
> interest. But I don't bring it up. Some people get angry or don't
> want to hear about it. And no wonder, you are threatening
> everything they hold to be true. My mil HAS to believe that the way
> she raised her children was the right and best way. It is
> fundamental to who she is. She doesn't like to talk much about how
> things have changed around our house. Life changing ideas make her
> nervous. I can't change her. But she just might be moved by my
> children as they grow up.
>
> It is wonderful to live peacefully and generously with children. My
> biggest challenge lately has been to extend that generosity and
> acceptance to other people.
>

Julie v.

Melissa,

Thanks for your suggestions concerning this instances. You gave me a few different ways
of viewing & responding to these types of situations that hadn't entered my mind
previously.

Julie




--- In [email protected], "Melissa" <autismhelp@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "Julie v." <jlvw@> wrote:
> >
> > Wondering what other's say or don't in situations where people make comments
> > concerning controlling children?
> Depends on the situation. These seemed fairly friendly, so I might say something light
and
> supportive of our choices. In less comfortable situations, I probably wouldn't say
anything,
> because some parents will choose to take their embarrassment out on their kids, or
> become more harsh to prove a point. My job isn't to promote unschooling per se, but
> perhaps model and promote mutual respect and breaking out of mainstream thought.
>
> > -Two neighbor kids were over playing w/our 4 year old and my dh & I were
conversing
> > with their parents in our backyard. Damek (our 4 year old), came up a couple of times
> > asking for things (can't remember what now), and the neighbor made the comment
"yea,
> > our kids were very demanding at that age also, we put a stop to that quick".
> I'd say something like "Oh, we're very thankful that he's comfortable enough to ask for
> help. This relationship with us will serve him well when he's facing peer pressure like
> drugs or sex."
>
> > -The girl then said "my mom said that if I read a lot I can have
> > a gameboy", and then the mom said "maybe".
> WIth the girl there, I would say something like "Reading is fun, but I know video games
are
> excitign too" just something bland and not very meaningful. After the child had left the
> area, I would mention how much video games have done to teach our children to read,
> cooperate and actually help with social skills. and then let it go, get out my mental floss,
> and try to clear my brain from the ickies.
>
> > Then my nephew wanted to watch a video, but my sister said it was too late and it was
> > getting to be bedtime. My son said "well he wants to watch it", and my sister said
"just
> > because he wants to do something doesn't mean he gets to do it". My son just kind
of
> > looked dumbfounded, as he doesn't encounter this attitude from us.
> On this one, I would have made sure to make time to talk to my son about how different
> families have different expectations. At that very moment, I would have said to my child,
> "I'm so sorry sweetie, that's not an option for them. Can we get ready to go, and we'll
talk
> more later?" In fact, I have asked my own kids to wait on the videos because little ones
in
> our house do need to get ready for bed. They are usually okay with it, because they in
> general respect the needs and desires of others.
>

Julie v.

Alice,

I like your suggestions for comments, it kind of takes the focus off the parent and puts it
in the best interest of the child, which is what ru is all about.

Thanks,

Julie





--- In [email protected], Alice Roddy <amar0514412000@...> wrote:
>
> These are fun to read and to write as well.
>
>
>
>
> -Two neighbor kids were over playing w/our 4 year old and my dh & I were
> conversing
>
> with their parents in our backyard. Damek (our 4 year old), came up a couple of
> times
>
> asking for things (can't remember what now), and the neighbor made the comment
> "yea,
>
> our kids were very demanding at that age also, we put a stop to that
> quick".
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Response: I'm glad he comes to me now and I hope he never
> stops. I'm just praying he'll still turn to me for help when he's a teenager.
>
>
>
>
> -My son just had his 5th birthday party yesterday and had a couple of neighbor
> friends
>
> over, one of the mom's came to get her son and saw that the boys were all
> enamoured
>
> with a couple of new gameboy games my son got. The sister (age 9) of the boy
> was there
>
> saying how much she wanted a gameboy and the mom said "if we bought you a
> gameboy
>
> you would never read books", and then went on to say "it's hard
> enough to get you to read
>
> without having a gameboy". The girl then said "my mom said that if I
> read a lot I can have a gameboy", and then the mom said "maybe".
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Response: "Oh, I used to think that giving rewards for doing
> things I wanted done was a good idea. Then I read all the research about how
> rewards devalue the thing you have to do to get them. Like, if she HAS to read
> to get a GameBoy then reading must be some dumb thing no one wants to do for it's
> own sake."
>
>
>
> -My sister & her husband were watching our 4 year old along with their 3
> kids. We came
>
> to pick him up and the boys were still having fun playing, so we stayed awhile
> and talked.
>
> Then my nephew wanted to watch a video, but my sister said it was too late and
> it was
>
> getting to be bedtime. My son said "well he wants to watch it", and
> my sister said "just
>
> because he wants to do something doesn't mean he gets to do it". My son
> just kind of
>
> looked dumbfounded, as he doesn't encounter this attitude from us.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Response: I don't know how to touch this one. I'd let it go.
>
>
>
>
> Gramma Alice
> Breastfeeding is the biological norm for infants. It is a relationship that provides food,
connection, protection from illness to the baby and stress reducing hormones to the
mother.
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> TV dinner still cooling?
> Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
> http://tv.yahoo.com/
>

Julie v.

Shellini,

Your not the bad person here:) Being new to the list and concerning your comments, I
think you might not be aware of what radical unschooling is. Just keep reading the list and
if your interested look in the archives to get a good picture of how radical unschoolers live
with children. I can speak for myself and say that this list and helped our family immensly
on our radical unschooling journey.

Peace,

Julie





--- In [email protected], Shellini Spencer <shellini@...> wrote:
>
> Hi there,
>
>
> I am new to this group and reading this post. Please forgive me, but
> I am afraid I do not understand.
>
> Aside from the 1st situation, I dont understand WHY it would be an
> issue. In the 1st instance, it seems that they offered parenting
> advice which was not asked for. Now unless you turned to them and
> said, " I wonder if your little ones do that to you, how did you
> handle it..."
>
> In the other 2 , it just seems like those are their parents rules. I
> know lots of parents who do not let their kids have video games. I
> even know some that do not even have a TV in the house. They have
> their reasons and their rules, and values... Whether or not you
> disagree, aren't those still their rules and their kids?
>
> I am not trying to be the bad person here, if I am missing something,
> please explain it to me. I mean, I say things like that to our kids
> too.. Just because they want it, does not mean they are going to get
> everything they want. Does not have to even do with spoiling them,
> that is just how life is. And our kids do have video games, but they
> are limited in how long they are allowed to play, and they dont play
> everyday... There are so many things to do, I would not want them
> hooked on ONE thing all day long..... these are the rules in our
> house....
>
> Thank you!
> Shellini
>
> Mothers hold their children's hands for a short while, but their
> hearts forever.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Melissa

Not only unreasonable, but I'd say unhealthy too. Once kids learn to bury their anger and
disappointment, you are breeding a martyr complex that will follow them for a long long
time. You are creating kids who perform as expected, but not for the joy of doing so, but
because they are out of touch with real feelings.

It sounds bizarre, but I totally grew up with that. Even if it appears that a kid is coping with
it, and doing just fine in spite of it, they are not. It wasn't until maybe six months ago,
before I could express to my family how SAD I was to miss a TV show that I had wanted to
see. My childhood training told me to bury the sadness and disappointment, and when you
do that long enough, it explodes as anger and resentment and negative behaviors. It turns
from disappointment to self-pity, and from self-pity to revenge. Maybe not all at once, but
it builds.

I have unschooling to thank for most of the progress made in my own therapy. SO we say
that unschooling not only saved our family, but it saved me too. ;-)
Melissa

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...>
wrote:
> Its unreasonable to expect children to be sanguine about
> disappointment - heck, many adults have trouble dealing with
> disappointment! Personally, I think a great deal of parents' wanting
> kids to accept "you can't always get what you want" is bc of our own
> difficulties. When we can't give our kids what they want, *we* feel
> badly but dont' know how to acknowledge and move past that feeling.
> Part of unschooling is learning to parent *ourselves*.

shellinispencer

Hi Julie,

I guess I am learning then.. lol.. Yes, I have never heard of radical
homeschooling till now. I am reading a little bit about John Holt on
the wikipedia site to get more of a feel. can you tell me more about
how this has helped your family, if you can. I would like to know more
and you can do it off list, if you prefer.

Thanks !!!!

Shellini

--- In [email protected], "Julie v." <jlvw@...> wrote:
>
> Shellini,
>
> Your not the bad person here:) Being new to the list and concerning
your comments, I
> think you might not be aware of what radical unschooling is. Just
keep reading the list and
> if your interested look in the archives to get a good picture of how
radical unschoolers live
> with children. I can speak for myself and say that this list and
helped our family immensly
> on our radical unschooling journey.
>
> Peace,
>
> Julie
>
>
>
>

shellinispencer

Hi Meredith,

No, I have not seen it, I am reading it right now. THank you for the
link....



--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666"
<plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], Shellini Spencer
> <shellini@> wrote:
> >> our kids do have video games, but they
> > are limited in how long they are allowed to play, and they dont
> play
> > everyday... There are so many things to do, I would not want them
> > hooked on ONE thing all day long..... these are the rules in our
> > house....
>
> Have you read this, yet?
> http://sandradodd.com/rules
>
> That's a good place to start thinking about "principles" instead of
> rules.
>
> I always find that when I'm getting "stuck" going back to my
> priciples makes a big difference. Early on in my unschooling
> journey, I found that some of what I considered priciples were in
> conflict with one another and I had to do some deeper "work" to find
> the core values or priciples that I wanted to embody in my life.
>
> In the example above, I'd guess that there's a principle of
> moderation, but I'd suggest digging deeper. Why is moderation
> important? What's underneath that? Why is getting all wrapped up in
> something fun, especially, such a problem? Would it be as much of a
> problem if it were something "educational", like reading? I suspect
> there are some fears here that need to be examined.
>
> One of the problems with moderation, from an unschooling
> perspective, is that people learn most easily from their passions,
> and certainly most joyfully. People of all ages will take on amazing
> challenges when they are inspired. My stepson will do the very
> things playing video games or skateboarding that he flat-out refused
> to do in school: he will do dull, repetitive exercises for the
> purpose of "getting better" at a particular skill. He actually
> *chooses* to do something he doesn't really like bc it forwards his
> passions.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)
>

Katharine Wise

"can you tell me more about how this has helped your family, if you can. I would like to know more and you can do it off list, if you prefer. "


No, no! Please do it on list!

Katharine












____________________________________________________________________________________
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cameron Parham

Yes! I wanted to break the cycle of controlling parents who train kids to feel just that way!


----- Original Message ----
From: Melissa <autismhelp@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, March 5, 2007 3:26:33 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re:cant always get whatcha want

Not only unreasonable, but I'd say unhealthy too. Once kids learn to bury their anger and
disappointment, you are breeding a martyr complex that will follow them for a long long
time. You are creating kids who perform as expected, but not for the joy of doing so, but
because they are out of touch with real feelings.

It sounds bizarre, but I totally grew up with that. Even if it appears that a kid is coping with
it, and doing just fine in spite of it, they are not. It wasn't until maybe six months ago,
before I could express to my family how SAD I was to miss a TV show that I had wanted to
see. My childhood training told me to bury the sadness and disappointment, and when you
do that long enough, it explodes as anger and resentment and negative behaviors. It turns
from disappointment to self-pity, and from self-pity to revenge. Maybe not all at once, but
it builds.

I have unschooling to thank for most of the progress made in my own therapy. SO we say
that unschooling not only saved our family, but it saved me too. ;-)
Melissa

--- In unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com, "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@ ...>
wrote:
> Its unreasonable to expect children to be sanguine about
> disappointment - heck, many adults have trouble dealing with
> disappointment! Personally, I think a great deal of parents' wanting
> kids to accept "you can't always get what you want" is bc of our own
> difficulties. When we can't give our kids what they want, *we* feel
> badly but dont' know how to acknowledge and move past that feeling.
> Part of unschooling is learning to parent *ourselves*.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa Heyman

>From: "Julie v." <jlvw@...>

>Wondering what other's say or don't in situations where people make
>comments
>concerning controlling children?
>
>-Two neighbor kids were over playing w/our 4 year old and my dh & I were
>conversing
>with their parents in our backyard. Damek (our 4 year old), came up a
>couple of times
>asking for things (can't remember what now), and the neighbor made the
>comment "yea,
>our kids were very demanding at that age also, we put a stop to that
>quick".
============
I might say something like "oh - it doesn't bother me at all. I'm glad he
can ask for what he wants."
And leave it at that.
============

>
>-My son just had his 5th birthday party yesterday and had a couple of
>neighbor friends
>over, one of the mom's came to get her son and saw that the boys were all
>enamoured
>with a couple of new gameboy games my son got. The sister (age 9) of the
>boy was there
>saying how much she wanted a gameboy and the mom said "if we bought you a
>gameboy
>you would never read books", and then went on to say "it's hard enough to
>get you to read
>without having a gameboy". The girl then said "my mom said that if I read
>a lot I can have
>a gameboy", and then the mom said "maybe".

===============
"Gee, you might be surprised how much reading goes on with gameboys."

===============
>-My sister & her husband were watching our 4 year old along with their 3
>kids. We came
>to pick him up and the boys were still having fun playing, so we stayed
>awhile and talked.
>Then my nephew wanted to watch a video, but my sister said it was too late
>and it was
>getting to be bedtime. My son said "well he wants to watch it", and my
>sister said "just
>because he wants to do something doesn't mean he gets to do it". My son
>just kind of
>looked dumbfounded, as he doesn't encounter this attitude from us.

===============
I think i might leave this one alone until perhaps another time. a. Your
sister may have been tired after watching 4 kids and your empathy in the
moment could go a lot further in the long run with possibiities of her
learning from you than any comment at that time. Sounds like you will have
plenty of time to model your behaviour and perhaps she will come to you with
questions how you might handle something. And B. your son will encounter
different attitudes from many people (including famiy) throughout his life -
this may be more of an opportunity to talk to him about differences and
choices.
===============

>
>I so want to promote unschooling, but I just don't think in these
>situations with these types of people they would even attempt to "get" what
>unschooling is
>all about.
>
>What do others do in these types of situations?

===============
In the situations you mentioned above the word 'unschooling' doesn't seem
relevant to "get" some one to undertand a different way to act towards a
child. I rarely use the word "unschooling" unless someone has inquired
about homeschooling beyond the initial "how do you do it?" question. I talk
about 'how we do it' (our approach to learning and living) without labeling.
I think i get a better response from the listener...the light bulbs start
going off when they are not threatened initially with a label or category
representing what they are not doing. If the conversation gets long and
indepth than the opportunity will occur naturally to use the word
unschooling.

Lisa Heyman

_________________________________________________________________
Rates near 39yr lows! $430K Loan for $1,399/mo - Paying Too Much? Calculate
new payment
http://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?sourceid=lmb-9632-18226&moid=7581

Julie v.

Lisa,

Thanks for the suggestions! I like the idea of just modeling our behavior for other people
to see. I think a lot has to do with the age of my son right now (5), the age where
everyone thinks they need to curtail certain behaviors with children and set them on the
right path, their behavior is so out there and open & free at this age and it makes people
uncomfortable I think. I will keep in mind to keep my focus on my child in these types of
situations and talk to him about the differences in families and how even if we don't agree
with how their family is run, that as long as the children aren't being abused, then we need
to respect the way their family is run.

Julie





--- In [email protected], "Lisa Heyman" <Lmanathome@...> wrote:
>
> >From: "Julie v." <jlvw@...>
>
> >Wondering what other's say or don't in situations where people make
> >comments
> >concerning controlling children?
> >
> >-Two neighbor kids were over playing w/our 4 year old and my dh & I were
> >conversing
> >with their parents in our backyard. Damek (our 4 year old), came up a
> >couple of times
> >asking for things (can't remember what now), and the neighbor made the
> >comment "yea,
> >our kids were very demanding at that age also, we put a stop to that
> >quick".
> ============
> I might say something like "oh - it doesn't bother me at all. I'm glad he
> can ask for what he wants."
> And leave it at that.
> ============
>
> >
> >-My son just had his 5th birthday party yesterday and had a couple of
> >neighbor friends
> >over, one of the mom's came to get her son and saw that the boys were all
> >enamoured
> >with a couple of new gameboy games my son got. The sister (age 9) of the
> >boy was there
> >saying how much she wanted a gameboy and the mom said "if we bought you a
> >gameboy
> >you would never read books", and then went on to say "it's hard enough to
> >get you to read
> >without having a gameboy". The girl then said "my mom said that if I read
> >a lot I can have
> >a gameboy", and then the mom said "maybe".
>
> ===============
> "Gee, you might be surprised how much reading goes on with gameboys."
>
> ===============
> >-My sister & her husband were watching our 4 year old along with their 3
> >kids. We came
> >to pick him up and the boys were still having fun playing, so we stayed
> >awhile and talked.
> >Then my nephew wanted to watch a video, but my sister said it was too late
> >and it was
> >getting to be bedtime. My son said "well he wants to watch it", and my
> >sister said "just
> >because he wants to do something doesn't mean he gets to do it". My son
> >just kind of
> >looked dumbfounded, as he doesn't encounter this attitude from us.
>
> ===============
> I think i might leave this one alone until perhaps another time. a. Your
> sister may have been tired after watching 4 kids and your empathy in the
> moment could go a lot further in the long run with possibiities of her
> learning from you than any comment at that time. Sounds like you will have
> plenty of time to model your behaviour and perhaps she will come to you with
> questions how you might handle something. And B. your son will encounter
> different attitudes from many people (including famiy) throughout his life -
> this may be more of an opportunity to talk to him about differences and
> choices.
> ===============
>
> >
> >I so want to promote unschooling, but I just don't think in these
> >situations with these types of people they would even attempt to "get" what
> >unschooling is
> >all about.
> >
> >What do others do in these types of situations?
>
> ===============
> In the situations you mentioned above the word 'unschooling' doesn't seem
> relevant to "get" some one to undertand a different way to act towards a
> child. I rarely use the word "unschooling" unless someone has inquired
> about homeschooling beyond the initial "how do you do it?" question. I talk
> about 'how we do it' (our approach to learning and living) without labeling.
> I think i get a better response from the listener...the light bulbs start
> going off when they are not threatened initially with a label or category
> representing what they are not doing. If the conversation gets long and
> indepth than the opportunity will occur naturally to use the word
> unschooling.
>
> Lisa Heyman
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Rates near 39yr lows! $430K Loan for $1,399/mo - Paying Too Much? Calculate
> new payment
> http://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?sourceid=lmb-9632-18226&moid=7581
>

Julie v.

Shellini,

My husband and I, since totally embracing radical unschooling, have just had a shift in
how we were starting to handle conflicts in our home, and how we were starting to view
this next leg of parenting coming from a very attached style to begin with. My son (who
just turned 5), was so easy going and laid back until about 3 years of age, and after a new
sibling, that we started reading all the positive parenting books, which are really still very
controlling and "discipline" oriented. Soon after we discovered radical unschooling by way
of the Always Unschooled group and then this one, and WOW!! It was like a bunch of light
bulbs went off. You mean you treat your children the way you want to be treated? You
put your trust in them to make decisions regarding themselves and these amazing beings
can actually know what it is they need and what they have a passion for? In a way it is so
much more complex then traditional parenting and using bribes/rewards/punishments,
but in the same sense it is so simple. I'm not saying we have zero conflicts in our home,
but for the most part they are easy to handle by just talking with our children and coming
up with solution that meet everyones needs. We basically don't have limits on anything in
our home, and everything (minus somebody getting hurt or property being damaged) is
negotiable.

My son self-regulates himself on just about everything (t.v., video games, food, hygiene,
ect..) and does an amazing job IMO. As an unschooling parent we are here to help our
children attain whatever it is they desire, and act as facilitators to their learning and life in
general.

I'm definiately not an expert or veteran in radical unschooling, I just know what this type
of lifestyle has done for our family and can't be gracious enough that we discovered it
when we did.

Just keep reading all you can and ask any question you haveo on this list and it will get
answered, probably much more eloquent than my answer.

Peace,

Julie
http://lerendzonderschool.blogspot.com/




--- In [email protected], "shellinispencer" <shellini@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Julie,
>
> I guess I am learning then.. lol.. Yes, I have never heard of radical
> homeschooling till now. I am reading a little bit about John Holt on
> the wikipedia site to get more of a feel. can you tell me more about
> how this has helped your family, if you can. I would like to know more
> and you can do it off list, if you prefer.
>
> Thanks !!!!
>
> Shellini
>
> --- In [email protected], "Julie v." <jlvw@> wrote:
> >
> > Shellini,
> >
> > Your not the bad person here:) Being new to the list and concerning
> your comments, I
> > think you might not be aware of what radical unschooling is. Just
> keep reading the list and
> > if your interested look in the archives to get a good picture of how
> radical unschoolers live
> > with children. I can speak for myself and say that this list and
> helped our family immensly
> > on our radical unschooling journey.
> >
> > Peace,
> >
> > Julie
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

shellinispencer

See, I dont see myself as a controlling parent because I am teaching
my kids that they cannot always have what they want. I dont feel that
it is unreasonable to teach them these values. If we are out at a
store and my son wants a toy and he just had a birthday or christmas
or whatever the reason is, I am not going to buy him that toy just
because he wants it. He will learn to be spoiled if he gets everytihng
he wants. My son is a sensitive child too.. If I left him to do what
he wanted, he would eat junk food and play video games all day long...
I mean granted there are parents that say no to everything and are
just NO kind of parents, but we dont say NO to our kids all the time,
and when we do, they are taught to respect that answer. Is that a
wrong way of thinking when it comes to unschooling?


--- In [email protected], Cameron Parham
<acsp2205@...> wrote:
>
> Yes! I wanted to break the cycle of controlling parents who train
kids to feel just that way!
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Melissa <autismhelp@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Monday, March 5, 2007 3:26:33 PM
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re:cant always get whatcha want
>
> Not only unreasonable, but I'd say unhealthy too. Once kids learn to
bury their anger and
> disappointment, you are breeding a martyr complex that will follow
them for a long long
> time. You are creating kids who perform as expected, but not for the
joy of doing so, but
> because they are out of touch with real feelings.
>

Shellini Spencer

LOL!!! Ok then! On the group it is!
Shellini

Mothers hold their children's hands for a short while, but their
hearts forever.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Manisha Kher

--- shellinispencer <shellini@...> wrote:

> See, I dont see myself as a controlling parent
> because I am teaching
> my kids that they cannot always have what they want.
> I dont feel that
> it is unreasonable to teach them these values.
The thing is that nobody _needs_ to teach that you
can't always get what you want. Life teaches that
lesson in many different ways. There are real limits
to our finances and our energies. Plus unexpected
sickness and weather (especially here in New England
:) can throw our plans off kilter.

I want my kids to learn that they can indeed have what
they want. Perhaps not instantly at that moment, but
by working towards it.

>If we
> are out at a
> store and my son wants a toy and he just had a
> birthday or christmas
> or whatever the reason is, I am not going to buy him
> that toy just
> because he wants it.
I have often said no to toys because we're out of our
toy budget. Now my kids get an allowance and when they
want a toy, they can buy it if they have the money.

He will learn to be spoiled if
> he gets everytihng
> he wants. My son is a sensitive child too.. If I
> left him to do what
> he wanted, he would eat junk food and play video
> games all day long...
I recommend reading some stuff on Sandra Dodd's site
and Joyce's site for a different point of view. Sandra
has a page call "If I let" or something like that.
Also other pages about food and video games.
http://sandradodd.com
http://joyfullyrejoicing.com

> Is that a
> wrong way of thinking when it comes to unschooling?
I think an unschooling parent has to support a child's
interests. That means saying yes as much as possible.

Manisha




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Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>See, I dont see myself as a controlling parent because I am teaching
my kids that they cannot always have what they want. I dont feel that
it is unreasonable to teach them these values. If we are out at a
store and my son wants a toy and he just had a birthday or christmas
or whatever the reason is, I am not going to buy him that toy just
because he wants it. He will learn to be spoiled if he gets everytihng
he wants. My son is a sensitive child too.. If I left him to do what
he wanted, he would eat junk food and play video games all day long...
I mean granted there are parents that say no to everything and are
just NO kind of parents, but we dont say NO to our kids all the time,
and when we do, they are taught to respect that answer. Is that a
wrong way of thinking when it comes to unschooling<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<




WE are one of THOSE parents that give everything our kids ask for. Of course if we financially can at that moment. I have a very intense ds that will be 5 end of June and you know what??? We have given him so many presents, big presents, just because....and ALL the time.
It has not made him "spoiled". If we cannot give him something at that moment we talk about it and discuss what we can do. He will either choose to wait till we can or to get something that we can afford that minute. And that can be a small trinket that costs 50 Cents when we are broke.
This past Christmas I kept asking what he wanted. Last Christmas he got so many presents. He said he wanted to get ME a Nintendo DS so we could play together. He did not want anything for himself but for his mom.
He will not learn to be spoiled if he gets everything he wants- no one gets every little thing they want. But he will learn that his parents will try to give him everything he wants - if possible.
He will learn about family budget and money and economics and most of all he will learn the joy of giving something that makes a loved one smile.

Alex ( The one with spoiled kids)
_,_._,___


I am one of those parents

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa Heyman

>
>See, I dont see myself as a controlling parent because I am teaching
>my kids that they cannot always have what they want. I dont feel that
>it is unreasonable to teach them these values. >>

Is this a value?

Perhaps the value you are really referring to is gratitude for what you do
have. My kids place tremendous value in generosity rather than deprivation.
I don't have to control what they can or cannot have or do - life dictates
that better than i can. It doesn't have to be taught through money
controls. On a simple level, not having what they want has been learned
through loosing a ball game. To be very drastic in an example - not having
what they want has been learned through death of loved ones - friends and
family.


>If we are out at a store and my son wants a toy and he just had a birthday
>or christmas
>or whatever the reason is, I am not going to buy him that toy just
>because he wants it.

Have you ever seen something that really peaked your desire even though your
birthday had just passed? A wise woman once said to me - if you can afford
it why would you withhold it from your child? Do you withhold purchasing
something you want (even if it's not necessary) just because it's something
you like - a new pair of shoes, a handbag, piece of jewelry, a cd, another
sketch pad or journal, a cookie? There have been times in my family's life
when we didn't have much money to spend on these things - and each purchase
had to be thought out very carefully against our budget. I feel very
blessed that today i don't have to be as concerned - and want to pass that
blessing along to my kids. It doesn't mean we don't discuss the cost and
the possibility of putting money towards something other than what they've
expressed interest in (like going to an unschooling conference<g>).

When my kids were very small and didn't yet understand limits to spending -
i avoided stores with them. And if that was not possible - i would budget a
few dollars into the shopping list so that they could pick out whatever they
wanted beyond the necessities - they knew they had this going into the store
and pretty much always worked within the budget. They were also involved in
picking out what the necessities were.


>He will learn to be spoiled if he gets everytihng
>he wants. >

This time it was a very wise man who said to me, "something spoils only when
it is left on the shelf by itself to rot." I think we can only 'spoil' a
person by withholding from them not by giving them what they ask for - want
or need.


>My son is a sensitive child too.. If I left him to do what
>he wanted, he would eat junk food and play video games all day long...>

don't know your background with this...but have you tried this? My dd's
have complete control over anything they want to eat and they always end up
asking for 'good' food when they need it.

Once my younger dd missed having ice cream after an evening out becaue she
fell asleep on the ride home. she was anxious about getting into the car
because she knew this might happen. I promised her that if she fell asleep
she could have ice cream for breakfast, in fact, i said to her, she could
have icecream for breakfast, lunch and dinner and snack in between if she
wished. She could eat icecream all day long. The next day - she did have
ice cream for breakfast and lunch. But by mid day she came to me saying she
needed some 'real' food in her body. She was about 6 at the time. She
loves telling this story (so do i infact) - and since that day (3.5 years
ago) she asked if she could do that again only once. I said of course. But
she has yet to take me up on the offer.

I can't speak personally about video games with my own kids - but i do have
a friend with a teen son who realized his lightheadedness and naseau came
from not taking enough breaks from his machines to eat and rest. He learned
through personal experience the importance of breaks. And someone else on
this list recently related their child asking for assistance to be reminded
to take breaks so he can accomplish other things that he's interested in
throughout the day.

I can personally attest to being sucked into a machine...but i can also
attest to the resentment towards those that try to control me rather than
giving me the time to work out my own solutions to self control when it
comes to machines - or food - or any other obsession i may have.


>I mean granted there are parents that say no to everything and are
>just NO kind of parents, but we dont say NO to our kids all the time,
>and when we do, they are taught to respect that answer. Is that a
>wrong way of thinking when it comes to unschooling?>

When i say no - my child will ask me why. The truth is unless there is a
very real reason that is beyond my control for the 'no' - i hear the
arbitrary nature of my 'no' and then ask myself what's really important
here? What is important is that i can be flexible. How can i expect or
want them to exhibit the value of flexibility if i can not be flexible?
That i can discuss with my kids ways to get to yes. That they feel
empowered and a sense of control over their own life. I have no problem
letting my kids know i can change my mind.

'No' is an important word. My very wise husband said (i surround myself by
wise people <g>), unless you can say 'no' there is no real 'yes.' BUT -
saying no simply for the sake of being able to say no is punitive and
disempowering. Sometimes if i feel the urge to say no i wait a few seconds
before responding.

As important as it is for you to be able to say no - it is important for my
kids to be able to say no to me as well. "No - mom that is not ok with me
that i can not do that - or have that - or whatever. This is important to
me" they will tell me. It doesn't always mean that i will be able to change
the situation, sometimes reality dictates all i can say is - "yes, i
'know'its hard when things don't go the way you want."

Lisa Heyman

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plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "shellinispencer"
<shellini@...> wrote:
>
> I am teaching
> my kids that they cannot always have what they want. I dont feel
that
> it is unreasonable to teach them these values.

Which values? That's a serious question, not a snarky one. I found
being really really specific about my values helpful in
understanding unschooling, even to the point of breaking down big
values, like "respect" into smaller, component values.

Its true that not everything in life is equally possible at the
moment, the question is: how do we deal with that? From my
perspective, I want my kids to have the skills to problem solve and
think critically *and* understand how to work through difficult
emotions. Saying "you can't always get what you want" doesn't do any
of that.

What if you switched to "I'm sorry, that's just not possible"? That
at least has the benefit of acknowledging the feelings involved. Of
course, it *does* set you up to answer the question "why isn't it
possible?" That's the sticker. If you don't have the quick-and-dirty
brush-offs like "I'm the mom, that's why" and "you can't always get
what you want" you have to really think about and answer your kids
questions, and entertain some alternative solutions. Maybe even
change your position - not a bad thing at all!

> He will learn to be spoiled if he gets everytihng
> he wants.

I haven't noticed my 5yo being any more rude or demanding than other
kids her age. She does try to find solutions and consider
alternatives, which is sometimes inconvenient to *me*! But its
certainly better than what I see her non-unschooled kid friends
doing, which is to sneak around behind their parents' backs to
explore the same kinds of alternatives.

My stepson, before he moved in with us, was a fairly "typical" surly
teen - that's the other dividend you get for "can't always get what
you want", a teen who reflects that attitude back atcha. Last night
Ray was telling me some of the things he's done to "teach his mom
she can't always get her way anymore" - Yikes!

At our house, he's a sweetheart. Yesterday was his first day up from
being sick and he was falling over himself to be helpful. We've
never told him "you can't always get what you want" - we've
said "lets see if that's possible" and tried to make it happen. Not
always successfully, but he's seen us bend over backwards to help
him get what he wants, and he's grateful. He doesn't *say* that, but
it shows in the ways he's helpful and friendly and courteous.

>If I left him to do what
> he wanted, he would eat junk food and play video games all day
>long...

That *is* the way people react when limitations are lifted. My
stepson has spent the last...oh, six weeks, I guess, staying up all
night to play Runescape. He's decided to switch back to being awake
in the daytime, though, even though he knows it means less computer
time - one computer/phone line, four users. Natural limits. He
misses doing other things, though. Different limits. He's learning
to negotiate his *own* wants and needs.

He's gone a similar route with food - he started out eating all the
chips, cookies and soda he could get his hands on, and we
facilitated that as much as we could afford. He's been eating less
and less, and yesterday announced he didn't want any soda for
awhile, would we please not buy any? No pressure from us. He doesn't
like the way it makes him feel.

In the midst of my trying to get this posted, my neighbor's dh
stopped by to say she's sick and can't hang with Mo today while Ray
and I go to the skatepark. I explained to her that this is really
really important to Ray, and how could we make it possible for her?
She came up with some ideas and loaded up the car. She can't get
what she wants today, but she's thoughtful and creative and willing
to work to make the situation possible for All of us. Not bad for 5!

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Ren Allen

~~I am teaching my kids that they cannot always have what they want. ~~

I'm trying to help my kids see that they can have anything and
everything they want in this life and to trust their innermost desires
and thoughts.

I am trying to unlearn the "lesson" you just wrote about in my own
life (after being raised by parents that taught it all too well) and
now realize I can have everything I want, just not all at once!:) I am
relearning to trust my instincts, my desires and my fantasies. I am
learning that "you can't always have what you want" is a big, fat lie
and the people that believe it are the ones that don't achieve their
goals and dreams.

We work within natural boundaries of budgets, weather, moods and other
circumstances....but I want my kids to know they CAN have what they
want and what they want is not only important, but HUGE clues about
who-they-are and the journey they are creating in this life.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com