Unschooling dogs
JULIE WOOD-HOLMLUND
The current dog thread has motivated me to post about my recent dog-related thoughts.
Before my DS was born in '06, my life had been ALL dogs ALL the time for about 10 years. Search and rescue, agility, film work -- behavior modification, clicker training, positive reinforcement -- pack theory, dominance issues -- these were the primary focus of my thoughts, reading, training, etc. for years.
Then along came Jake and I started questioning behaviorism. Cry-it-out is simply extinguishing an "unwanted behavior" right? WRONG!!! By the time he was just six months old I realized how my dog training experience had actually polluted my ability to parent in an unconditional way. Thankfully I ran into Alfie Kohn's work last summer and I FINALLY found the answers regarding why behaviorism -- punishment or rewards -- doesn't work well for humans.
And now I'm left wondering if it really works that well for my dogs. Sure, they're well trained. They know 70+ behaivors on command and can work in crazy environments. And they've always seemed to genuinely enjoy the training and the work. But are they happy? Fulfilled? Who would THEY liked to have been? (Of course I'll never know those answers 'cause I can't discuss it with them. But I now wonder... :)
Back to parenting though... The most pressing question on my mind at the moment is: how do my behavior-modification-based interactions with my dogs influence Jake about how to interact with other living creatures?
In other words... what kind of example am I setting!?!?
If I want to model an unschooling, empathic style of living, I believe that needs to include how I live and interact with our dogs. If I coerce my dogs to be "obedient" through reward and/or punishment, how will Jake know that such coercion is only reserved for non-humans. And now I'm questioning if it should even be used on them.
I understand that when raising a canine in a human environment, "guidance" is essential to help them live in harmony with us. Their natural instincts to chew, dig, kill, etc., don't mesh well with modern human lives. I've come a LONG way from my early years of mostly using punishment, or threat of punishment, physical dominance and bullying (aka "The Dog Whisperer" -- YUCK!!!) and for years now have almost exclusively used positive reinforcement and reward-based methods. But now I recognize that even these gentler methods are still just external control mechanisms.
Now that I see how wonderful empathic parenting is in my life with Jake, and with my DH, I'm aching to find a more empathic and organic way to live with my dogs. But I'm truly not sure how to do that, and have dogs that are enjoyable to live with.
So, are there any recovering behaviorists out there who have thought these issues through and can provide some insight?
How do you dedicated unschoolers live with your dogs? Have you found a way to live an unschooly life with your dogs? Or do you use "traditional discipline" with them? If so, how do you justify -- to yourself and your children -- the difference between how you treat humans vs. nonhumans?
Thanks for any thoughts you all can share.
Sincerely,
Julie H.
Mom to Jake, 18 months
and furkids Hawk & Bearette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Before my DS was born in '06, my life had been ALL dogs ALL the time for about 10 years. Search and rescue, agility, film work -- behavior modification, clicker training, positive reinforcement -- pack theory, dominance issues -- these were the primary focus of my thoughts, reading, training, etc. for years.
Then along came Jake and I started questioning behaviorism. Cry-it-out is simply extinguishing an "unwanted behavior" right? WRONG!!! By the time he was just six months old I realized how my dog training experience had actually polluted my ability to parent in an unconditional way. Thankfully I ran into Alfie Kohn's work last summer and I FINALLY found the answers regarding why behaviorism -- punishment or rewards -- doesn't work well for humans.
And now I'm left wondering if it really works that well for my dogs. Sure, they're well trained. They know 70+ behaivors on command and can work in crazy environments. And they've always seemed to genuinely enjoy the training and the work. But are they happy? Fulfilled? Who would THEY liked to have been? (Of course I'll never know those answers 'cause I can't discuss it with them. But I now wonder... :)
Back to parenting though... The most pressing question on my mind at the moment is: how do my behavior-modification-based interactions with my dogs influence Jake about how to interact with other living creatures?
In other words... what kind of example am I setting!?!?
If I want to model an unschooling, empathic style of living, I believe that needs to include how I live and interact with our dogs. If I coerce my dogs to be "obedient" through reward and/or punishment, how will Jake know that such coercion is only reserved for non-humans. And now I'm questioning if it should even be used on them.
I understand that when raising a canine in a human environment, "guidance" is essential to help them live in harmony with us. Their natural instincts to chew, dig, kill, etc., don't mesh well with modern human lives. I've come a LONG way from my early years of mostly using punishment, or threat of punishment, physical dominance and bullying (aka "The Dog Whisperer" -- YUCK!!!) and for years now have almost exclusively used positive reinforcement and reward-based methods. But now I recognize that even these gentler methods are still just external control mechanisms.
Now that I see how wonderful empathic parenting is in my life with Jake, and with my DH, I'm aching to find a more empathic and organic way to live with my dogs. But I'm truly not sure how to do that, and have dogs that are enjoyable to live with.
So, are there any recovering behaviorists out there who have thought these issues through and can provide some insight?
How do you dedicated unschoolers live with your dogs? Have you found a way to live an unschooly life with your dogs? Or do you use "traditional discipline" with them? If so, how do you justify -- to yourself and your children -- the difference between how you treat humans vs. nonhumans?
Thanks for any thoughts you all can share.
Sincerely,
Julie H.
Mom to Jake, 18 months
and furkids Hawk & Bearette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: woodswords@...
So, are there any recovering behaviorists out there who have thought
these
issues through and can provide some insight?
-=-=-=-=-
Recovering behaviorist. <bwg> I'll have to remember to use that
sometime. <bwg>
Most of my life, too, as been spent in the serious company of dogs. I
started training (Koehler & Strickland---jerk-praise---methods) in 1970
when I was ten. I trained my mutt to UDTX level by 1973, but she could
never complete in trials back then, so she was untitled. Things have
changed so much. It's so nice to see folks making an effort to see
beyond that. It's nice to see dogs who are *eager* to work compared to
the dogs in competition in the 70s. I tend to take long breaks from
dogs and then come back to be amazed at the progress made in training
over time.
There were the food incentives popular in the 80s. And whatever (balls
, toys, playtime) incentives of the 90s. Now, from what i've observed,
it's more about seeing things from the dog's PoV and working from where
the dog is---learning his language---instead of teaching him ours.
I've been "in" dogs, off & on for over 35 years. Breeding, showing,
obedience, agility, pointer field trials, tracking, handling, judging,
writing, and now mostly just grooming (specializing in handstripping
terriers).
I'm raising my second guide dog pup. That's an amazing bit of training.
The DOG's in charge! <bwg> Not in my house, of course. <g> But that's
the goal---ain't *that* some shit! *Trusting* and *respecting* that dog
and his decisions more than your own self?
-=-=-=-=-
How do you dedicated unschoolers live with your dogs? Have you found
a way to
live an unschooly life with your dogs? Or do you use "traditional
discipline"
with them? If so, how do you justify -- to yourself and your children
-- the
difference between how you treat humans vs. nonhumans?
-=-=-=-=-
It's not either - or. It's living together and takes both and neither
and all.
I treat the dogs as dogs. They are NOT my children. They DO understand
pack order and dominance---very, very clearly. ANd if it's not clear,
they're happy to clarify *for* you! <G> (Why so many dogs end up in
rescue. *They've* had to determine pack order.)
I think after the pack order is established, everything else falls into
place here. I *do* use behavior modification. It works. BUT I also try
to work *with* the dog, rather than against him. I try to figure out
why he thinks the way he does and come at things from his PoV. It's
harder at first, but the pay-offs (like unschooling) are bigger and
better. Plus, it gets easier in the long run.
I'm working with a friend who gived classes here in town, We've known
each other since we were kids and training. She's very into
non-punitive training (for the most part). Mostly she's showing folks
how to "understand" "dog-speak"---it's wierd. Hard to go into in one
post. <g> But we work with the *dog's* language and his physiology to
communicate. We make sure he---and WE *understand*--a lot different
from strict obedience!
Working with guide dogs, I've learned a lot about "reasoning"---and I
think many dogs do it really, really well. Especially of they are
exposed to many different situations. Back yard/couch potato dogs have
no reason to reason. <g> But working dogs are processing things every
minute. They're different. Not necessarily in ability---just in
exposure and out of necessity.
As for my pets: the goal is harmony. And I think most of that is
accomplished with pack order first, then working *together*. I could
*force* correct heel position; but when a dog is attached for hours on
end, it's more of a *dance* than control or obedience: we work
together.
I'm having issues right now with the smooth collie we've taken over
raising as a guide dog (14 months old and with another family before
us). She doesn't come when called. She gets a cookie EVERY time she
comes inside. Why? Because it works AND because she needs to understand
that *I* am not the bad guy. As soon as she trusts me, we can wean
away. But right now, we need the reward. AFter she trusts me, I'll
start trying to use "come" again.
At the same time, I'm known for saying, "You're a DAWG" which is
shorthand for: "stop whatever you're doing---it's not proper behavior
for a dog. People come first." <G> That'll get the dog off the
furniture or out of the front seat or whatever quickly because he
really doesn't have the same rights. <G> Overall though, our life with
dogs is fairly unschooly---well, I'd rather use "harmonious." It's not
really unschooly, but it's listening to the dog and trying to
understand where's he is at the minute. It's using his language and his
abilities to communicate---so in that it's unschooly.<g> I'm making no
sense. <bwg>
As for my boys: they know who's human and who's not. <bwg> It's not a
stretch! <G> We communicate differently. We're different species. But
working WITH the dog certainly makes things easier all the way around.
Oh--and we're tihnking about Search and Rescue later when the boys are
gone. I LOVE working dogs!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
The current dog thread has motivated me to post about my recent
dog-related
thoughts.
Before my DS was born in '06, my life had been ALL dogs ALL the time
for about
10 years. Search and rescue, agility, film work -- behavior
modification,
clicker training, positive reinforcement -- pack theory, dominance
issues --
these were the primary focus of my thoughts, reading, training, etc.
for years.
Then along came Jake and I started questioning behaviorism.
Cry-it-out is
simply extinguishing an "unwanted behavior" right? WRONG!!! By the
time he was
just six months old I realized how my dog training experience had
actually
polluted my ability to parent in an unconditional way. Thankfully I
ran into
Alfie Kohn's work last summer and I FINALLY found the answers regarding
why
behaviorism -- punishment or rewards -- doesn't work well for humans.
And now I'm left wondering if it really works that well for my dogs.
Sure,
they're well trained. They know 70+ behaivors on command and can work
in crazy
environments. And they've always seemed to genuinely enjoy the
training and the
work. But are they happy? Fulfilled? Who would THEY liked to have
been? (Of
course I'll never know those answers 'cause I can't discuss it with
them. But I
now wonder... :)
Back to parenting though... The most pressing question on my mind at
the
moment is: how do my behavior-modification-based interactions with my
dogs
influence Jake about how to interact with other living creatures?
In other words... what kind of example am I setting!?!?
If I want to model an unschooling, empathic style of living, I
believe that
needs to include how I live and interact with our dogs. If I coerce my
dogs to
be "obedient" through reward and/or punishment, how will Jake know that
such
coercion is only reserved for non-humans. And now I'm questioning if
it should
even be used on them.
I understand that when raising a canine in a human environment,
"guidance" is
essential to help them live in harmony with us. Their natural
instincts to
chew, dig, kill, etc., don't mesh well with modern human lives. I've
come a
LONG way from my early years of mostly using punishment, or threat of
punishment, physical dominance and bullying (aka "The Dog Whisperer" --
YUCK!!!)
and for years now have almost exclusively used positive reinforcement
and
reward-based methods. But now I recognize that even these gentler
methods are
still just external control mechanisms.
Now that I see how wonderful empathic parenting is in my life with
Jake, and
with my DH, I'm aching to find a more empathic and organic way to live
with my
dogs. But I'm truly not sure how to do that, and have dogs that are
enjoyable
to live with.
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
From: woodswords@...
So, are there any recovering behaviorists out there who have thought
these
issues through and can provide some insight?
-=-=-=-=-
Recovering behaviorist. <bwg> I'll have to remember to use that
sometime. <bwg>
Most of my life, too, as been spent in the serious company of dogs. I
started training (Koehler & Strickland---jerk-praise---methods) in 1970
when I was ten. I trained my mutt to UDTX level by 1973, but she could
never complete in trials back then, so she was untitled. Things have
changed so much. It's so nice to see folks making an effort to see
beyond that. It's nice to see dogs who are *eager* to work compared to
the dogs in competition in the 70s. I tend to take long breaks from
dogs and then come back to be amazed at the progress made in training
over time.
There were the food incentives popular in the 80s. And whatever (balls
, toys, playtime) incentives of the 90s. Now, from what i've observed,
it's more about seeing things from the dog's PoV and working from where
the dog is---learning his language---instead of teaching him ours.
I've been "in" dogs, off & on for over 35 years. Breeding, showing,
obedience, agility, pointer field trials, tracking, handling, judging,
writing, and now mostly just grooming (specializing in handstripping
terriers).
I'm raising my second guide dog pup. That's an amazing bit of training.
The DOG's in charge! <bwg> Not in my house, of course. <g> But that's
the goal---ain't *that* some shit! *Trusting* and *respecting* that dog
and his decisions more than your own self?
-=-=-=-=-
How do you dedicated unschoolers live with your dogs? Have you found
a way to
live an unschooly life with your dogs? Or do you use "traditional
discipline"
with them? If so, how do you justify -- to yourself and your children
-- the
difference between how you treat humans vs. nonhumans?
-=-=-=-=-
It's not either - or. It's living together and takes both and neither
and all.
I treat the dogs as dogs. They are NOT my children. They DO understand
pack order and dominance---very, very clearly. ANd if it's not clear,
they're happy to clarify *for* you! <G> (Why so many dogs end up in
rescue. *They've* had to determine pack order.)
I think after the pack order is established, everything else falls into
place here. I *do* use behavior modification. It works. BUT I also try
to work *with* the dog, rather than against him. I try to figure out
why he thinks the way he does and come at things from his PoV. It's
harder at first, but the pay-offs (like unschooling) are bigger and
better. Plus, it gets easier in the long run.
I'm working with a friend who gived classes here in town, We've known
each other since we were kids and training. She's very into
non-punitive training (for the most part). Mostly she's showing folks
how to "understand" "dog-speak"---it's wierd. Hard to go into in one
post. <g> But we work with the *dog's* language and his physiology to
communicate. We make sure he---and WE *understand*--a lot different
from strict obedience!
Working with guide dogs, I've learned a lot about "reasoning"---and I
think many dogs do it really, really well. Especially of they are
exposed to many different situations. Back yard/couch potato dogs have
no reason to reason. <g> But working dogs are processing things every
minute. They're different. Not necessarily in ability---just in
exposure and out of necessity.
As for my pets: the goal is harmony. And I think most of that is
accomplished with pack order first, then working *together*. I could
*force* correct heel position; but when a dog is attached for hours on
end, it's more of a *dance* than control or obedience: we work
together.
I'm having issues right now with the smooth collie we've taken over
raising as a guide dog (14 months old and with another family before
us). She doesn't come when called. She gets a cookie EVERY time she
comes inside. Why? Because it works AND because she needs to understand
that *I* am not the bad guy. As soon as she trusts me, we can wean
away. But right now, we need the reward. AFter she trusts me, I'll
start trying to use "come" again.
At the same time, I'm known for saying, "You're a DAWG" which is
shorthand for: "stop whatever you're doing---it's not proper behavior
for a dog. People come first." <G> That'll get the dog off the
furniture or out of the front seat or whatever quickly because he
really doesn't have the same rights. <G> Overall though, our life with
dogs is fairly unschooly---well, I'd rather use "harmonious." It's not
really unschooly, but it's listening to the dog and trying to
understand where's he is at the minute. It's using his language and his
abilities to communicate---so in that it's unschooly.<g> I'm making no
sense. <bwg>
As for my boys: they know who's human and who's not. <bwg> It's not a
stretch! <G> We communicate differently. We're different species. But
working WITH the dog certainly makes things easier all the way around.
Oh--and we're tihnking about Search and Rescue later when the boys are
gone. I LOVE working dogs!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
The current dog thread has motivated me to post about my recent
dog-related
thoughts.
Before my DS was born in '06, my life had been ALL dogs ALL the time
for about
10 years. Search and rescue, agility, film work -- behavior
modification,
clicker training, positive reinforcement -- pack theory, dominance
issues --
these were the primary focus of my thoughts, reading, training, etc.
for years.
Then along came Jake and I started questioning behaviorism.
Cry-it-out is
simply extinguishing an "unwanted behavior" right? WRONG!!! By the
time he was
just six months old I realized how my dog training experience had
actually
polluted my ability to parent in an unconditional way. Thankfully I
ran into
Alfie Kohn's work last summer and I FINALLY found the answers regarding
why
behaviorism -- punishment or rewards -- doesn't work well for humans.
And now I'm left wondering if it really works that well for my dogs.
Sure,
they're well trained. They know 70+ behaivors on command and can work
in crazy
environments. And they've always seemed to genuinely enjoy the
training and the
work. But are they happy? Fulfilled? Who would THEY liked to have
been? (Of
course I'll never know those answers 'cause I can't discuss it with
them. But I
now wonder... :)
Back to parenting though... The most pressing question on my mind at
the
moment is: how do my behavior-modification-based interactions with my
dogs
influence Jake about how to interact with other living creatures?
In other words... what kind of example am I setting!?!?
If I want to model an unschooling, empathic style of living, I
believe that
needs to include how I live and interact with our dogs. If I coerce my
dogs to
be "obedient" through reward and/or punishment, how will Jake know that
such
coercion is only reserved for non-humans. And now I'm questioning if
it should
even be used on them.
I understand that when raising a canine in a human environment,
"guidance" is
essential to help them live in harmony with us. Their natural
instincts to
chew, dig, kill, etc., don't mesh well with modern human lives. I've
come a
LONG way from my early years of mostly using punishment, or threat of
punishment, physical dominance and bullying (aka "The Dog Whisperer" --
YUCK!!!)
and for years now have almost exclusively used positive reinforcement
and
reward-based methods. But now I recognize that even these gentler
methods are
still just external control mechanisms.
Now that I see how wonderful empathic parenting is in my life with
Jake, and
with my DH, I'm aching to find a more empathic and organic way to live
with my
dogs. But I'm truly not sure how to do that, and have dogs that are
enjoyable
to live with.
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
Katharine Wise
Have you read Elizabeth Marshall Thomas' The Hidden Life of Dogs? (I don't see how you could have been into dogs for that long without having having read it, but thought I'd ask.) The theme of her book is this question of what makes a fulfilled dog -- left to their own devices, what would dogs choose to do:-) It's a great book for any dog-lovers out there.
Katharine
----- Original Message ----
From: JULIE WOOD-HOLMLUND <woodswords@...>
T
And now I'm left wondering if it really works that well for my dogs. Sure, they're well trained. They know 70+ behaivors on command and can work in crazy environments. And they've always seemed to genuinely enjoy the training and the work. But are they happy? Fulfilled? Who would THEY liked to have been? (Of course I'll never know those answers 'cause I can't discuss it with them. But I now wonder... :)
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Katharine
----- Original Message ----
From: JULIE WOOD-HOLMLUND <woodswords@...>
T
And now I'm left wondering if it really works that well for my dogs. Sure, they're well trained. They know 70+ behaivors on command and can work in crazy environments. And they've always seemed to genuinely enjoy the training and the work. But are they happy? Fulfilled? Who would THEY liked to have been? (Of course I'll never know those answers 'cause I can't discuss it with them. But I now wonder... :)
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]