Carrie

Hello all,

My son is 26mo, and spends most of his time at home naked. He's
learning to use the toilet and is quite thrilled with the whole
experience. He's particularly interested in his bottom and explores
that area with his fingers alot.

This is significantly bothering my husband to the point where
yesterday he declared that we need to keep DS in diapers or underwear
at all times. I disagree, partly because DS will stick his fingers
underneath those anyway so it's pointless, but also because I don't
want to force him to do anything. I love that he's so interested in
exploring his body and I don't want to give him any complexes about it.

What also bothers my husband is that our son used to love to wash his
hands and would do so at the mere suggestion. Now he doesn't want to
and usually doesn't after going to the toilet, even though we've
always modeled that. He'll also play with his bottom during a meal and
then go right back to eating with both hands. I keep a solution around
(water, vinegar, tea tree oil) that I used to use for diaper changes
around to clean his hands whenever possible, which he doesn't mind and
actually helps with. This is good enough for me but not DH.

I've tried explaining that there are germs in your intestines and in
poop that you wouldn't want to get in your mouth because they can make
you sick -- but of course he hasn't gotten sick so clearly Mom doesn't
know what she's talking about. I've also tried explaining that it's
perfectly fine to play with your bottom -- the bathtub is a great
place to do that, and so is using toilet paper.

So I'm left wondering... how important is hygiene between poop and
your mouth anyway? I mean I know we've all been taught that it's bad
and I know that it's a major source of disease pathogens, but I also
believe that my two year old does not have the diseases that
historically get carried this way. I think that e.coli (not the really
scary one) can be found in your intestines but I don't know the
difference between that one and the one that was in the spinach scare
recently. So I don't know if we're just blowing this out of proportion
or not, and if not, I don't know how to communicate better with my son
about washing his hands between bottom time and any other time (mouth
time, playing time, etc). I've been hoping that over time he will
understand more but since it bugs DH so much (he's not very unschooly,
yet another thing we're working on) I don't know how to approach it
for now.

Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Carrie

Meridith Richardson

One of the main causes of ecoli is improper washing
after defecating. PLease don't take this one lightly
as a 26mo will mostly likely succumb to the Ecoli. I
am a Vegan, and mostly raw and have researched much
about Ecoli after the scares in the past months with
vegetables. Check out CDC.gov. or even webmd.
When it comes to life and death there is not room for
error.
Meridith

--- Carrie <cyandell@...> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> My son is 26mo, and spends most of his time at home
> naked. He's
> learning to use the toilet and is quite thrilled
> with the whole
> experience. He's particularly interested in his
> bottom and explores
> that area with his fingers alot.
>
> This is significantly bothering my husband to the
> point where
> yesterday he declared that we need to keep DS in
> diapers or underwear
> at all times. I disagree, partly because DS will
> stick his fingers
> underneath those anyway so it's pointless, but also
> because I don't
> want to force him to do anything. I love that he's
> so interested in
> exploring his body and I don't want to give him any
> complexes about it.
>
> What also bothers my husband is that our son used to
> love to wash his
> hands and would do so at the mere suggestion. Now he
> doesn't want to
> and usually doesn't after going to the toilet, even
> though we've
> always modeled that. He'll also play with his bottom
> during a meal and
> then go right back to eating with both hands. I keep
> a solution around
> (water, vinegar, tea tree oil) that I used to use
> for diaper changes
> around to clean his hands whenever possible, which
> he doesn't mind and
> actually helps with. This is good enough for me but
> not DH.
>
> I've tried explaining that there are germs in your
> intestines and in
> poop that you wouldn't want to get in your mouth
> because they can make
> you sick -- but of course he hasn't gotten sick so
> clearly Mom doesn't
> know what she's talking about. I've also tried
> explaining that it's
> perfectly fine to play with your bottom -- the
> bathtub is a great
> place to do that, and so is using toilet paper.
>
> So I'm left wondering... how important is hygiene
> between poop and
> your mouth anyway? I mean I know we've all been
> taught that it's bad
> and I know that it's a major source of disease
> pathogens, but I also
> believe that my two year old does not have the
> diseases that
> historically get carried this way. I think that
> e.coli (not the really
> scary one) can be found in your intestines but I
> don't know the
> difference between that one and the one that was in
> the spinach scare
> recently. So I don't know if we're just blowing this
> out of proportion
> or not, and if not, I don't know how to communicate
> better with my son
> about washing his hands between bottom time and any
> other time (mouth
> time, playing time, etc). I've been hoping that over
> time he will
> understand more but since it bugs DH so much (he's
> not very unschooly,
> yet another thing we're working on) I don't know how
> to approach it
> for now.
>
> Any thoughts?
> Thanks,
> Carrie
>
>




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Deb Lewis

***So I'm left wondering... how important is hygiene between poop and
your mouth anyway? ***

Reasonably important I think, but I wouldn't be too scared over it. We've
all heard stories of babies putting their hands in their poopy diapers and
having a taste or doing some finger painting or whatever. And those of us
with cats probably have at least one disgusting litter pan story. <g>

When you think about all the times, out in public when you picked his
blanket (or binky or a toy) up off the ground or off a restaurant floor and
gave it a shake and handed it back to him, the potential for hand to mouth
contact with germs is pretty high.

***I don't know how to communicate better with my son
about washing his hands between bottom time and any other time (mouth
time, playing time, etc). ***

He'll understand better as he gets older. Does he mind if you give his
hands a quick wipe with a washcloth?

Would he like to have a finger bowl at the table? Maybe if you all had one.
I think finger bowls were traditionally for after a meal (I'm not of the
finger bowl crowd, I'm of the finger licking crowd) but if you all had one
maybe he'd think it was fun. Maybe not a good idea if you have a valuable
antique table, though.

Would he like to wash his hands more if he could just splash in a bowl or
basin of warm water? Maybe you could put a step stool in the bathroom or
somewhere, with a towel under it <g> and put a little pan of mildly soapy
water there for him to splash in.

Maybe he'd like some of those pre-moistened wipes that he could help himself
to. (And then, be prepared for him to help himself to a lot of them.<g>)

Deb Lewis

Lalita

>So I'm left wondering... how important is hygiene between poop and
your mouth anyway? I mean I know we've all been taught that it's bad
and I know that it's a major source of disease pathogens, but I also
believe that my two year old does not have the diseases that
historically get carried this way. I think that e.coli (not the really
scary one) can be found in your intestines but I don't know the
difference between that one and the one that was in the spinach scare
recently.<

The same e. coli that was in spinach is in our intestine - the problem is when too much gets put in there - that's the part that is disease causing.

I also wonder if something else is going on as well - like is his bottom itchy. Not sure what else could be going on down there to draw his attention so (beyond just mere exploring).

I only know what I learned in my college classes that those pathogens in any feces are dangerous and can contaminate. That's why it's not 'safe' to be in flood water (could be sewage in there - which contains feces).

On the other hand, I did learn that our urine (majority of time) is sterile. So, I stopped worrying so much about the peepee accidents - just cleaned up for smell. Was MORE careful with the poopy accidents.

Lalita


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Susan

> I've tried explaining that there are germs in your intestines and in
> poop that you wouldn't want to get in your mouth because they can make
> you sick -- but of course he hasn't gotten sick so clearly Mom doesn't
> know what she's talking about. I've also tried explaining that it's
> perfectly fine to play with your bottom -- the bathtub is a great
> place to do that, and so is using toilet paper.

Our son is a bit older (4) but he also likes exploring and we went
through a period where his hands were *constantly* inside his
underwear. Our concern was that he was playing with his bottom and
then touching his mouth/eyes, computer, doorknobs, counters, food,
etc. We feel this isn't hygienic. And he also did it in public quite a
bit as well - at restaurants, the playground, etc. We've encouraged
him to use the privacy of his bedroom or the bathroom and then gently
reminded him to please wash his hands afterwards.

We've talked about germs and the human body and he has a fairly good
understanding of the need to keep hands clean. We've also talked about
manners and public vs private activities. (There are many good
children's books on these subjects). We've tried to carefully balance
this information with his need to explore and we've been mindful to
treat it as a natural, healthy thing and not implant the idea that
certain body parts are dirty or off-limits.

Our children enjoy being naked as well, but due to our very nosy,
conservative neighbors and our kids inclination to run to the
door/window and look out, we've had to make underwear a must. They
don't have to be fully dressed and they're welcome to stay in pj's if
that's what they prefer, but at the very least they must have
underwear on.

-- Susan

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "Carrie" <cyandell@...>
wrote:
>> What also bothers my husband is that our son used to love to wash
his
> hands and would do so at the mere suggestion. Now he doesn't want
to
> and usually doesn't after going to the toilet, even though we've
> always modeled that.

I'd go for wipes or a hand-sanitizer - which it sounds like you're
doing. Mo went through a phase of not wanting to wash her hands. We
had boxes of wipes all over the house, in the vehicles, in the
workshops... they were just everywhere for awhile. I still try to
keep a bottle of hand sanitizer around for times when the cats bring
us "presents". Mo loves to pick up the little dead animals and look
at them and feed the snake with them, but doesn't understand why she
should wash her hands afterwards. She'll do the sanitizer, though.

We had a brief period of UTIs with my stepson when he was little -
we had an outhouse at the time but no handwashing set up right there
next to it, so he wasn't washing his hands after a poop. Certainly
not the kind of crisis that e.coli can (potetially) be, but it was
uncomfortable for him - and for us, too, since he's a big-time
extrovert and had to tell Everyone that he had "an infection in my
penis". The joys of parenting!

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Carrie Yandell

Thanks, everyone, for the replies. I was pretty sure the gut bacteria
was not good to get elsewhere, but I've just started to question
*everything* lately!

Sounds like we're on the right track anyway. Nathan doesn't mind
washclothes.. that's what I put the tea tree oil/water solution on. He
has access to them and likes to clean up with that himself as well. He
has access to the sink and soap, he just chooses not to use it. The
finger bowl is an interesting idea -- will think about how to
incorporate that! Hand sanitizer.. I hadn't thought of that, oddly. I
even have some somewhere :)

Carrie

Marieke Willis

--- Lalita <coteddy4567@...> wrote:
> The same e. coli that was in spinach is in our intestine - the
> problem is when too much gets put in there - that's the part that is
> disease causing.

There are actually different strains of e. coli, just like there are
different types of dogs, some of which are more dangerous than others
(just like with dogs). Any strain can be dangerous when the quantity is
large enough, though, I think. Pathogens are also more dangerous when
you're already weakened by some other disease, immunosuppressants or
other conditions (e.g., pregnancy). For an accurate risk assessment of
bacteria of all sorts you could try reading the studies about the
bacteria concerned on PubMed (often you can only read the abstracts,
but they tend to offer enough info).

I haven't looked up e. coli and feces, but I was shocked to learn that
fresh raw eggs in a normal, healthy pregnancy actually aren't
dangerous. The only studies relating to raw eggs/salmonella in
pregnancy were: a study among pregnant Tunisian women with AIDS (raw
eggs are dangerous to them, but then and again, just about anything is,
including the common cold); some case studies of pregnant women who had
eaten raw eggs that had been left out at room temperature for *several*
hours (their fetuses died, they were fine after treatment); and case
studies of flocks of pregnant sheep that lost their fetuses after
eating food that contained salmonella (I'm not a sheep, plus the
quantity of salmonella in that sheep food was probably way higher than
in 1 fresh egg). Point is, science in conjunction with the media often
exaggerate risks. I've got other examples, but this is not meant to be
an essay on our fear-based society.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?DB=pubmed

Use the search bar to search the medical literature on just about w/e.

Marieke



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Chris and Kelli Bailey

i have a question regarding the tea tree oil. i have a
small bottle (great for topical treatment of acne)!
but on the bottle, there is a statement "do not use
during pregnancy."

does anyone know if and why this product may be
harmful to children?

i found a link stating "toxic" to infants and
toddlers, but no further info...

http://www.salisbury.edu/nursing/herbalremedies/tea_tree_oil.htm

tia,
kelli


--- Carrie Yandell <cyandell@...> wrote:

> Thanks, everyone, for the replies. I was pretty sure
> the gut bacteria
> was not good to get elsewhere, but I've just started
> to question
> *everything* lately!
>
> Sounds like we're on the right track anyway. Nathan
> doesn't mind
> washclothes.. that's what I put the tea tree
> oil/water solution on. He
> has access to them and likes to clean up with that
> himself as well. He
> has access to the sink and soap, he just chooses not
> to use it. The
> finger bowl is an interesting idea -- will think
> about how to
> incorporate that! Hand sanitizer.. I hadn't thought
> of that, oddly. I
> even have some somewhere :)
>
> Carrie
>




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Chris and Kelli Bailey

my dd-27mos has recently began to put her hand inside
her diaper when falling asleep. first thing each
morning we visit the bathroom. she stands on a stool
and "plays" in warm soapy water in the sink for a few
minutes before breakfast. we also do this after nap.

hth,
kelli

> Would he like to wash his hands more if he could
> just splash in a bowl or
> basin of warm water? Maybe you could put a step
> stool in the bathroom or
> somewhere, with a towel under it <g> and put a
> little pan of mildly soapy
> water there for him to splash in.




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Laura Beaudin

Hi,

I'm Laura. I'm a Canadian currently living in the iddle East. I have two
daughers. Yasmine is 2 1/2 and Daniya will be 1 in a few days.

The problem with raw eggs or eggs not well cooked is not salmonella.
Statistically, one in 450 eggs will contain salmonella and that's only among
eggs that have't been pasteurized--not a problem i the West. The danger is
in the listeria bacteria that eggs can contain. Both mother and child have
been known to die with such infections.

Laura

On 1/25/07, Marieke Willis <luuknam@...> wrote:
>
> --- Lalita <coteddy4567@...> wrote:
> > The same e. coli that was in spinach is in our intestine - theH
> > problem is when too much gets put in there - that's the part that is
> > disease causing.
>
> There are actually different strains of e. coli, just like there are
> different types of dogs, some of which are more dangerous than others
> (just like with dogs). Any strain can be dangerous when the quantity is
> large enough, though, I think. Pathogens are also more dangerous when
> you're already weakened by some other disease, immunosuppressants or
> other conditions (e.g., pregnancy). For an accurate risk assessment of
> bacteria of all sorts you could try reading the studies about the
> bacteria concerned on PubMed (often you can only read the abstracts,
> but they tend to offer enough info).
>
> I haven't looked up e. coli and feces, but I was shocked to learn that
> fresh raw eggs in a normal, healthy pregnancy actually aren't
> dangerous. The only studies relating to raw eggs/salmonella in
> pregnancy were: a study among pregnant Tunisian women with AIDS (raw
> eggs are dangerous to them, but then and again, just about anything is,
> including the common cold); some case studies of pregnant women who had
> eaten raw eggs that had been left out at room temperature for *several*
> hours (their fetuses died, they were fine after treatment); and case
> studies of flocks of pregnant sheep that lost their fetuses after
> eating food that contained salmonella (I'm not a sheep, plus the
> quantity of salmonella in that sheep food was probably way higher than
> in 1 fresh egg). Point is, science in conjunction with the media often
> exaggerate risks. I've got other examples, but this is not meant to be
> an essay on our fear-based society.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?DB=pubmed
>
> Use the search bar to search the medical literature on just about w/e.
>
> Marieke
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
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>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carrie Yandell

Well, it does say not to use it undiluted.. I use have used it with my
son since birth in a diluted concentration of 10 drops in a squeeze
bottle with water and dr bronner's. I've never heard that though! I
also use it throughout pregnancy (diluted) with the wipes solution and
for cleaning. I'd love to hear if anyone else has any more information
on the toxicity levels as well. It IS pretty strong stuff!

Carrie

Ren Allen

~~Point is, science in conjunction with the media often
> exaggerate risks. I've got other examples, but this is not meant to be
> an essay on our fear-based society.~~

I think our family has innocculated ourselves against many germs, by
NOT being very uptight.:)
We eat cookie dough and other "dangerous" substances. When we caught
Jalen eating stuff off the ground or floor as a toddler/baby and
people freaked out, I said "Oh, it's ok, he's just immunizing
himself". ha

Maybe it seems gross, but none of us have been to any kind of Doctor
for years and years other than for a broken arm a few years ago. We
just don't get sick.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Susan

We're big fans of tea tree oil - I wouldn't have even considered it
could be labeled "toxic" to pregnant women & toddlers. Of course it
doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out it could be used in a
manner or strength that would be harmful (as with *any* substance).

We've used it for cuts/scrapes, etc, because it's a wonderful natural
antiseptic with the uncommon ability to penetrate through skin layers.
A tiny dot undiluted on a boo-boo will both kill the pain and clean
the wound. Clears up acne practically overnight. And it's great for
ear pain & infections.

--Susan


On 1/25/07, Chris and Kelli Bailey <cdbailey_99@...> wrote:
> i have a question regarding the tea tree oil. i have a
> small bottle (great for topical treatment of acne)!
> but on the bottle, there is a statement "do not use
> during pregnancy."
>
> does anyone know if and why this product may be
> harmful to children?
>
> i found a link stating "toxic" to infants and
> toddlers, but no further info...
>
> http://www.salisbury.edu/nursing/herbalremedies/tea_tree_oil.htm

Marieke Willis

--- Laura Beaudin <laura.beaudin@...> wrote:
> The problem with raw eggs or eggs not well cooked is not salmonella.
> Statistically, one in 450 eggs will contain salmonella and that's
> only among
> eggs that have't been pasteurized--not a problem i the West. The
> danger is
> in the listeria bacteria that eggs can contain. Both mother and child
> have been known to die with such infections.

A quick google search for "raw eggs" turns up lots of stuff concerning
salmonella and eggs, but in the first dozen links or so (I didn't look
further) nothing on listeria. I am aware however that listeria is the
reason you're not supposed to eat soft cheeses and such, so perhaps
you're confused with that? If not, would you give a link?

Marieke



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Vanessa Klein

Hi Kelli,

I have been involved in the aromatherapy industry using/creating
products/researching essentials oils for the past 10 years.

The link you were referring to cautions against the *undiluted* use
of tea tree. This is correct. Any essential oil can cause
sensitization if used undiluted. It may not happen the first time, or
the tenth time, or the 100th time, but there is always the
possibility of sensitization occurring at some point. Once you become
sensitized, you probably will not be able to use that oil (and
possibly any other oil with a similar chemical structure) ever again.
Some essential oils, if used undiluted, can cause burns and scarring
as well. All essential oils can be toxic if used undiluted, in large
enough amounts.

According to "The Aromatherapy Practitioner Reference Manual" (one of
the most highly respected reference books in the field) tea tree has
been "tested at low dose non-toxic, possible skin irritant, not
tested for sensitization at levels higher than 1% dilution."

Common dilutions for use with most essential oils is 1% for babies/
children and 2.5% for adults. Pregnancy is always an area of concern
for topical application only because women commonly experience more
sensitivity and skin changes during pregnancy.

I certainly don't mean to discourage anyone from using essential oils
- they can be a wonderful, natural way to treat common illnesses/
injuries and enhance health and wellness. The key is to educate
yourself and always, ALWAYS dilute before use!

I have a few articles with basic info on aromatherapy at my website
if you are interested in reading more:
http://www.herbsofgrace.com/aromatherapy-basics.php



~~~~~~Vanessa~~~~~~
www.herbsofgrace.com
Natural Look Mineral Makeup





On Jan 24, 2007, at 9:15 PM, Chris and Kelli Bailey wrote:

> i have a question regarding the tea tree oil. i have a
> small bottle (great for topical treatment of acne)!
> but on the bottle, there is a statement "do not use
> during pregnancy."
>
> does anyone know if and why this product may be
> harmful to children?
>
> i found a link stating "toxic" to infants and
> toddlers, but no further info...
>
> http://www.salisbury.edu/nursing/herbalremedies/tea_tree_oil.htm
>
> tia,
> kelli
>
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marieke Willis

--- Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
> I think our family has innocculated ourselves against many germs, by
> NOT being very uptight.:)
> We eat cookie dough and other "dangerous" substances. When we caught
> Jalen eating stuff off the ground or floor as a toddler/baby and
> people freaked out, I said "Oh, it's ok, he's just immunizing
> himself". ha

More or less the same here. :)

You should be aware though that "immunizing" yourself that way only
raises the number of bacteria it will take to make you ill, and not
perfectly immunizes yourself. So don't touch the raw eggs that have
been left at room temperature for a day, and be a bit more careful when
you're already ill with something else.

I'm reasonably used to eating raw eggs, so I'm not altogether too
worried about eating them now that I'm pregnant (although I think I
haven't yet, but then and again, with the exhaustion and morning
(day&night) sickness I haven't really been much in the kitchen at all.
I'm going to take the advice on not eating soft cheeses, because I
normally don't, so my body isn't used to those bacteria, and it is a
fact that your body is weaker during pregnancy.

Years ago, I read something about trash collectors, how they often are
ill a LOT during their first half year on the job and then after that
barely ever. Same kinda thing.

Marieke



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Melissa

Ren, not gross to us ;-) I just wished I had figured it out earlier, so that Josh didn't have to
deal with all my issues. I like your response, mine developed into, "Eh, stomach acid'll eat
anything." Not very many happy looks, mostly judgemental angry ones. My kids also love the
raw cookie dough, and once Breanna ate half a raw chicken breast because she didn't realize
it had just been browned, not cooked all the way through. THAT made me a little queasy! She
had no problems.

We definitely have hit the self-innoculation point. As frequently as they share germs, they
have iron-clad immunities by now! Runs in my husbands family.

Melissa


--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
> I think our family has innocculated ourselves against many germs, by
> NOT being very uptight.:)
> We eat cookie dough and other "dangerous" substances. When we caught
> Jalen eating stuff off the ground or floor as a toddler/baby and
> people freaked out, I said "Oh, it's ok, he's just immunizing
> himself". ha

Chris and Kelli Bailey

vanessa,

thank you so much for responding to my post! i have an
expensive ($18.00/.33 oz) small tincture bottle of
tea tree oil. the label says:

ESS
ORGANIC OIL
TEA TREE
CAUTION: DO NOT TAKE INTERNALLY. DO NOT USE UNDILUTED
ON THE SKIN. KEEP AWAY FROM CHILDREN AND EYES. DO NOT
USE DURING PREGNANCY.

because the precautionary statement concerning
diluting for skin use has already been placed on the
label, i'm assuming the manufacturer intends to
precaution consumers not to use the product AT ALL
during pregnancy. otherwise, they may have recommended
some alternate dilution or something. i guess i will
contact the manufacturer, who may likely advise me not
to use it at all to prevent any sort of
reaction/litigation. or i can use what i think is good
sense and continue to use it as i have been. *sigh*
it's really very effective against acne blemishes.

thanks again for the info!
kelli


> The link you were referring to cautions against the
> *undiluted* use
> of tea tree. This is correct. Any essential oil can
> cause
> sensitization if used undiluted.

> Pregnancy is always an
> area of concern
> for topical application only because women commonly
> experience more
> sensitivity and skin changes during pregnancy.




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Laura Beaudin

Thanks for pointing this out--your right, I haven't been able to get info
off the internet. Would you believe that I got this from my doctor? That's
what you get for listening to people in this country--my apologies.

Laura

On 1/25/07, Marieke Willis <luuknam@...> wrote:
>
> --- Laura Beaudin <laura.beaudin@...> wrote:
> > The problem with raw eggs or eggs not well cooked is not salmonella.
> > Statistically, one in 450 eggs will contain salmonella and that's
> > only among
> > eggs that have't been pasteurized--not a problem i the West. The
> > danger is
> > in the listeria bacteria that eggs can contain. Both mother and child
> > have been known to die with such infections.
>
> A quick google search for "raw eggs" turns up lots of stuff concerning
> salmonella and eggs, but in the first dozen links or so (I didn't look
> further) nothing on listeria. I am aware however that listeria is the
> reason you're not supposed to eat soft cheeses and such, so perhaps
> you're confused with that? If not, would you give a link?
>
> Marieke
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marieke Willis

--- Laura Beaudin <laura.beaudin@...> wrote:
> Thanks for pointing this out--your right, I haven't been able to get
> info
> off the internet. Would you believe that I got this from my doctor?

Yes. In my experience, doctors are a good source of misinformation.

> That's
> what you get for listening to people in this country--my apologies.

On the bright side, you could sue him. :P In NL, the judges would laugh
you away, you probably couldn't get this to be a court case, whereas
here... who knows what would happen? Although I don't like stupid
lawsuits... they just increase the cost of medical care.

Speaking of doctors and malinformation, I'm currently reading "The
thinking woman's guide to a better birth", which is actually pretty
well researched, despite the title. Some of the stuff in it really
makes me roll my eyes, even though I was already very skeptical of
hospital birth with all its interventions. It's a wonder obstetricians
don't get sued more often. Example: in around 1800, some doctor decided
that the average length of a pregnancy is 40 weeks. Nowadays, doctors
use that number to decide when to induce, which is quite often done at
41 weeks, although there are doctors that wait till 42 weeks. Still,
turns out that the average length of a first time pregnancy is 41 weeks
and a day, and for subsequent pregnancies 40 weeks and 3 days. So, the
average first time mom is overdue and should be induced? Gimme a break.
And I could obviously go on and on, but then I'd be abusing Henci
Goer's copyright, I think.

Marieke



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