Wildflower Car

What is your opinion on marriage under age 18. I believe the legal marriage
age varies from 14-18 across the country. Would you sign a release fro your
child to get married before 18? I had this question asked to me recently and
wanted to hear from you guys. It was related to unschooling by letting them
make their own choices when the question was posed to me.

Wildflower

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Susan

> What is your opinion on marriage under age 18. I believe the legal marriage
> age varies from 14-18 across the country. Would you sign a release fro your
> child to get married before 18? I had this question asked to me recently and
> wanted to hear from you guys. It was related to unschooling by letting them
> make their own choices when the question was posed to me.

My reply would be that it absolutely depends on the individual. I've
met extremely mature sixteen year-olds who are more aware of
themselves and their place in the world and would probably handle a
deeply committed relationship, including all the responsibilities and
unknowns that go with it, better than some 30 year-olds I know.

I personally wasn't in the right frame of mind to appreciate and
understand that type of partnership until I was about 23. My unmarried
friends might argue that they still aren't ready. But my daughter or
son may be at 17.

DH's parents were married when she was 14 and he was 16. They are
still together, seem in love as much as ever (hand holding and all)
and have raised two children who now have spouses and kids of their
own. IMO, it makes no sense to set arbitrary limits on an entire group
of people using age as the only determining factor.

-- Susan

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 22, 2007, at 1:28 AM, Wildflower Car wrote:

> I had this question asked to me recently and
> wanted to hear from you guys. It was related to unschooling by
> letting them
> make their own choices when the question was posed to me.

Those types of questions assume mindful parenting is another rule
based parenting method, eg, Problem X gets Solution Y. And people
want to know what set of solutions mindful parenting relies on so
they can compare it to the solution sets of other parenting methods.

Solutions come from understanding the background and foundation of a
situation, not from a snapshot of the situation divorced from its
background.

If your car stopped running, would you fill it with gas?

If you smelled smoke, would you call 911?

If the cereal box were empty, would you go to the store?

If you were fired, would you look for another job?

If you were cold, would you put on a sweater?

If someone handed you an apple, would you eat it?

If your child wanted an ATV, would you buy it for him?

If your husband wanted to move, would you say "Sure, let's."

If this were school, would there be only one right answer for each
question?

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

camden

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this. But here's my story.

I was 16 when I got married. I had runaway (long story) & met my future
hubby. The only reason my mother signed the papers was because the
authorities in the state I was in told her they were going to send me back
to her C.O.D. So she signed the papers.

I often wondered what would have happened if they had sent me back & my
parents wouldn't have "paid" for me.

Everyone in our family said it wouldn't last ........ a pregnant teenager
who ran away wanting to keep her baby & get married ! Can you imagine?

That was in 1981 and we are still going strong. That may not be the case
with everyone but we made it work.

I think the answer depends on the situation & the support the future couple
will have.

Carol

KARA CASSIDY

I also was 16 when I married my husband 3 years later we had our fist child we were also told we would never last well we are 33 years old now and have three great kids and are still very much in love so it can work out for some people.
----- Original Message -----
From: camden<mailto:ccoutlaw@...>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] OT-Letting them marry?


I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this. But here's my story.

I was 16 when I got married. I had runaway (long story) & met my future
hubby. The only reason my mother signed the papers was because the
authorities in the state I was in told her they were going to send me back
to her C.O.D. So she signed the papers.

I often wondered what would have happened if they had sent me back & my
parents wouldn't have "paid" for me.

Everyone in our family said it wouldn't last ........ a pregnant teenager
who ran away wanting to keep her baby & get married ! Can you imagine?

That was in 1981 and we are still going strong. That may not be the case
with everyone but we made it work.

I think the answer depends on the situation & the support the future couple
will have.

Carol





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~Would you sign a release fro your
child to get married before 18?~~

Possibly.
More likely though, I'd ask them why they thought marriage was
necessary and urge them to wait. Marriage isn't the answer in our
house for a long-term relationship. I'd help them set up an apartment
together before I signed a release for marriage. Just my pov.

I'm not a big fan of marriage, I AM a big fan of healthy relationships
though.:)

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Debra

Hi Wilflower,
My opinion is, I would not sign any papers to let my daughter marry under the age of 18. Why, because I've married at age 17, my sister married at age 14, my mom married at age 17, and all have turned out very bad. I feel they are just too young to make the right choice at that age, they don't have the ability to think as a adult would, and therefore I feel they would regret it in years to come. Of course there are always a few exceptions, but for the most part, they don't....

Debra

Wildflower Car <unschoolfool@...> wrote:
What is your opinion on marriage under age 18. I believe the legal marriage
age varies from 14-18 across the country. Would you sign a release fro your
child to get married before 18? I had this question asked to me recently and
wanted to hear from you guys. It was related to unschooling by letting them
make their own choices when the question was posed to me.

Wildflower

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nance Confer

The example my kids have is that DH and I lived together for 13 years before marrying. We married specifically because we were planning to have the kids. And have been married for another 14 years now. (Somebody owes me an anniversary present now that I think of all this! :) )
So, hopefully, they are getting the message that it isn't the magic of the marriage ceremony that matters. It's the wonder of finding another person you want to go through all of lifes ups and downs with -- not just the first few exciting dates -- that really counts.

Managing to think long-term is a difficult thing for all of us, and moreso for the young. And the newly in love.

What do these young lovers think will change when they are married? Are they living together now? Do they even know if they want to be together that much of the time? Have they planned beyond the wedding bells?

Nance





Posted by: "Ren Allen" starsuncloud@... gruvystarchild
Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:23 am (PST)
~~Would you sign a release fro your
child to get married before 18?~~

Possibly.
More likely though, I'd ask them why they thought marriage was
necessary and urge them to wait. Marriage isn't the answer in our
house for a long-term relationship. I'd help them set up an apartment
together before I signed a release for marriage. Just my pov.

I'm not a big fan of marriage, I AM a big fan of healthy relationships
though.:)

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Treasure Coast Funschoolers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/treasurecoastfunschoolers/



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marieke Willis

--- Debra <countrywestern1@...> wrote:
> Hi Wilflower,
> My opinion is, I would not sign any papers to let my daughter marry
> under the age of 18. Why, because I've married at age 17, my sister
> married at age 14, my mom married at age 17, and all have turned out
> very bad. I feel they are just too young to make the right choice at
> that age, they don't have the ability to think as a adult would, and
> therefore I feel they would regret it in years to come. Of course
> there are always a few exceptions, but for the most part, they
> don't....

Not saying I advocate people getting married *young*, but perhaps the
problem in your family's case has more to do with a lack of role models
of a "good marriage" rather than with age. I come from a background
where I was physically and verbally abused, and guess what? When I got
married, it took me just a few months before I hit my husband... in
public at that. All because he made some comment about my handwriting
on some stupid form not being legible. I got married reasonably young
(20yo), but I don't think it would have mattered much if I'd waited
till I was 30. Unless you work on certain things, they won't change.

Needless to say, I've worked on the whole abuse thing (and worked on
it, and worked on it... it's hard to change, and abuse victims can get
lots of help, but perpetrators who want to quit are pretty much on
their own). Anyway, the hard work did pay off, and I'm pretty much
never abusive to my husband anymore (verbally or physically). But
anyway, the point of my reply was that age probably isn't as important
as other factors. Plus, what really *is* the difference between getting
married at 17 vs 18? I think it should more depend on the situation
than on the age. That said, I'm with Ren... I don't see much of reason
for getting married so young (I got married at 20 for immigration
reasons, otherwise I'd have done the bf/gf thing living together or so
first).

Marieke



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[email protected]

I would like to know why staying married is an indicator of success? Some people stay married and are miserable. Is their marriage successful because they stayed married? Some people get married late and end up divorced a few years later, or marry in their twenties and discover it was a mistake and get a divorce, going their separate ways and doing no real harm to anyone in the process. If you get married young and end up divorced why should that become "I told you so" anymore than someone who gets married at 30 and then divorces?
I personally hope my daughters don't get married too young, and at 14 I would actively discourage it, but my older daughter at 17 is probably mature enough. I would not stand in her way if she came home and said she wanted to get married. And if it didnt work out, then it didnt work out. I would support her in divorcing as well.
Kathryn

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wildflower Car

I meant to post that last question directly to you. Of course, if you
respond, use whatever works for you.

Wildflower

>From: "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: OT-Letting them marry?
>Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 17:12:38 -0000
>
>~~Would you sign a release fro your
>child to get married before 18?~~
>
>Possibly.
>More likely though, I'd ask them why they thought marriage was
>necessary and urge them to wait. Marriage isn't the answer in our
>house for a long-term relationship. I'd help them set up an apartment
>together before I signed a release for marriage. Just my pov.
>
>I'm not a big fan of marriage, I AM a big fan of healthy relationships
>though.:)
>
>Ren
>learninginfreedom.com
>

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Susan

>>> I would like to know why staying married is an indicator of
success? Some people stay married and are miserable. Is their marriage
successful because they stayed married? <<<

I gave an example of a long-term marriage because the argument against
young marriage is usually that younger couples lack the knowledge or
skill necessary to make it work. Some people stay married their whole
lives and are miserable their whole lives. I gave an example of what
appears to be a very happy marriage that started when both were very
young. Of course they are the only ones who can really determine if
they have a happy, successful relationship.

>>> Some people get married late and end up divorced a few years
later, or marry in their twenties and discover it was a mistake and
get a divorce, going their separate ways and doing no real harm to
anyone in the process. <<<

Very true. If they were just dating or living together for example,
people wouldn't view a breakup as a failure in the same way they view
divorce. And in many cases the only difference is a piece of paper
which really does nothing unless the couple lends that paper weight
and authority and assigns it a set of rules by which to live that is
different from the set of rules for living if they did not have the
paper.

>>> If you get married young and end up divorced why should that
become "I told you so" anymore than someone who gets married at 30 and
then divorces? <<<

Good point.

>>> I personally hope my daughters don't get married too young, and at
14 I would actively discourage it, but my older daughter at 17 is
probably mature enough. I would not stand in her way if she came home
and said she wanted to get married. And if it didnt work out, then it
didn't work out. I would support her in divorcing as well. <<<

You know, this doesn't get said enough. I see too many unhappy
marriages where the couple feels incredible pressure to remain
together. They face a lack of support during a divorce, outright
disapproval and threats from family members and their church community
and worries that they must be personally flawed if they could not make
it work.

-- Susan

Debra

I also agree with you about a lack of a role model, I didn't have one, and my mom didn't have one, and so it continues. However I feel if I were older when I first decided to get married, it would have made a difference in my life. As years went on, I began missing the things other woman, my age had, such as going out and having fun, but at that time I was already tied down to a husband and child. I got married too young, and had to settle into a Italian family lifestyle, with all there old customs. I had to grow up fast, and be the perfect wife and mother, I really never knew how to be.
I was, like yourself, also raised in a abusive home, where my mother would fly off the handle and hit me anytime she got upset, or the verbal abuse would start, this continued all of my growing years. And like yourself, I too learned to fight with my husband, and I became verbally abusive to him, as he did to me, it was a mess. To this day I have no respect for men, and I can be very abusive verbally if I'm under attack of any kind. So yes having a role model is very important, and that is why I'm doing my best to be a good role model for my daughter, but unfortunately, I'm repeating the same mistakes that my mother did. This is why I would never agree to sign any papers for my daughter to marry young.
I just want to thank you for sharing your story, it's not always easy putting your life out there for people to really see who you are. Thanks again.... Debra

Marieke Willis <luuknam@...> wrote:
--- Debra <countrywestern1@...> wrote:
> Hi Wilflower,
> My opinion is, I would not sign any papers to let my daughter marry
> under the age of 18. Why, because I've married at age 17, my sister
> married at age 14, my mom married at age 17, and all have turned out
> very bad. I feel they are just too young to make the right choice at
> that age, they don't have the ability to think as a adult would, and
> therefore I feel they would regret it in years to come. Of course
> there are always a few exceptions, but for the most part, they
> don't....

Not saying I advocate people getting married *young*, but perhaps the
problem in your family's case has more to do with a lack of role models
of a "good marriage" rather than with age. I come from a background
where I was physically and verbally abused, and guess what? When I got
married, it took me just a few months before I hit my husband... in
public at that. All because he made some comment about my handwriting
on some stupid form not being legible. I got married reasonably young
(20yo), but I don't think it would have mattered much if I'd waited
till I was 30. Unless you work on certain things, they won't change.

Needless to say, I've worked on the whole abuse thing (and worked on
it, and worked on it... it's hard to change, and abuse victims can get
lots of help, but perpetrators who want to quit are pretty much on
their own). Anyway, the hard work did pay off, and I'm pretty much
never abusive to my husband anymore (verbally or physically). But
anyway, the point of my reply was that age probably isn't as important
as other factors. Plus, what really *is* the difference between getting
married at 17 vs 18? I think it should more depend on the situation
than on the age. That said, I'm with Ren... I don't see much of reason
for getting married so young (I got married at 20 for immigration
reasons, otherwise I'd have done the bf/gf thing living together or so
first).

Marieke

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kimberly Hays Grow

I am not sure whether or not young marriages are a good idea or not. I was married young...twice. Obviously, my first ended in divorce. I am still in the second, but it is not very healthy. I grew up in a kind and loving home with my mother. Unfortunately, when I would visit my father I got to see all of the horrible things that people can do and say to each other. Both my father and my stepmother were abusive. Unfortunately again, this small bit of contact has had an everlasting effect on me and I too have grown up to be an unstable wife and mother. I don't think any amount of age maturity would have changed that fact. I am fairly certain that I would have turned out that way whether I was 18 or 30. My belief is that you have to know your child and know whether or not she can handle it.

Kimberly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

This is not really an opinion on this issue, just a related story.

When I was 18, I hitchhiked to Alaska with my 17 y/o gay friend. We got jobs at a girl scout camp once we got up there, based at Harding Lake. This was 1978. We went off to get high one day in the woods and we were in a clearing when an old woman (in her 80's, very old to two teeagers) appeared out of the trees to warn us about bears. We got to talking to her, and she told us how she was married at 14 to a 15 year old boy. They immediately set out for Alaska on horseback and trekked all the way from somewhere in the"lower 48" (cant remember where) up to Alaska. They spent the first winter in an arctic style tent, then proceeded to homestead. They cleared land, hewed logs, built their own log cabin. They were still living in it in 1978, having improved it over the years. Needless to say, I was and still am, impressed.
Kathryn

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Kimberly Hays Grow" <khaysgrow@...>
I am not sure whether or not young marriages are a good idea or not. I was married young...twice. Obviously, my first ended in divorce. I am still in the second, but it is not very healthy. I grew up in a kind and loving home with my mother. Unfortunately, when I would visit my father I got to see all of the horrible things that people can do and say to each other. Both my father and my stepmother were abusive. Unfortunately again, this small bit of contact has had an everlasting effect on me and I too have grown up to be an unstable wife and mother. I don't think any amount of age maturity would have changed that fact. I am fairly certain that I would have turned out that way whether I was 18 or 30. My belief is that you have to know your child and know whether or not she can handle it.

Kimberly

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~We got jobs at
a girl scout camp once we got up there, based at Harding Lake. This
was 1978. ~~

That's wild!
I may have passed right by you, I would have visited Harding Lake many
times over the years. I would have been 9y.o. in 1978, so we lived in
Alaska at the same time.:) I can't remember if we ever made that
connection before.

About the marrying young thing....it used to be the NORM. If we look
at history, 14 and 15 would not have been considered too young for
marrying in certain cultures.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

[email protected]

<<That's wild!
I may have passed right by you, I would have visited Harding Lake many
times over the years. I would have been 9y.o. in 1978, so we lived in
Alaska at the same time.:) I can't remember if we ever made that
connection before.>>

I absolutely love Alaska! I have been there four times, May-Sept. (never spent a winter). Last time I was up there was actually my first experience unschooling. I pulled my daughter out of second grade in April and hit the road towing a trailer with her and her 4 y/o sister along. My friends were dismayed that I was pulling her out of school but she learned so much on the road traveling up the Alcan, and then living thru August. I had landed a job flying Airtours for an outfit in Denali Park. The girls spend the entire season in a small town, exploring animal tracks along the river, watching the mother moose with twin calves in town, and getting an insight into a differernt lifestyle. I am hoping to make a trip up to Bettles this winter (quick hop for 5 nights) to see the Northern Lights. Anyone want to go?
Kathryn


-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...>
~~We got jobs at
a girl scout camp once we got up there, based at Harding Lake. This
was 1978. ~~

That's wild!
I may have passed right by you, I would have visited Harding Lake many
times over the years. I would have been 9y.o. in 1978, so we lived in
Alaska at the same time.:) I can't remember if we ever made that
connection before.

About the marrying young thing....it used to be the NORM. If we look
at history, 14 and 15 would not have been considered too young for
marrying in certain cultures.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marieke Willis

--- Debra <countrywestern1@...> wrote:
> I also agree with you about a lack of a role model, I didn't have
> one, and my mom didn't have one, and so it continues. However I feel
> if I were older when I first decided to get married, it would have
> made a difference in my life. As years went on, I began missing the
> things other woman, my age had, such as going out and having fun, but
> at that time I was already tied down to a husband and child. I got
> married too young, and had to settle into a Italian family lifestyle,
> with all there old customs. I had to grow up fast, and be the perfect
> wife and mother, I really never knew how to be.

Not sure whether this is a relevant conversation to continue on this
list, so if you want to take this offlist, fine by me.

I don't think you would have known how to be the perfect wife/mother
even if you'd been older. Abusive marriages suck at any age. In a good
marriage your HB would have tried making it possible for you to go out
and have fun one night a week or so, and not expected you to be
perfect. That said, did you expect your husband to be perfect?

> I was, like yourself, also raised in a abusive home, where my
> mother would fly off the handle and hit me anytime she got upset, or
> the verbal abuse would start, this continued all of my growing years.
> And like yourself, I too learned to fight with my husband, and I
> became verbally abusive to him, as he did to me, it was a mess. To
> this day I have no respect for men, and I can be very abusive
> verbally if I'm under attack of any kind.

Do you have no respect for men in particular, or do you not have
respect for anybody? Do you have respect for women? Do you have respect
for yourself? If your disrespect is concentrated on men, why?

> So yes having a role model
> is very important, and that is why I'm doing my best to be a good
> role model for my daughter, but unfortunately, I'm repeating the same
> mistakes that my mother did. This is why I would never agree to sign
> any papers for my daughter to marry young.

What are you doing to quit making the same mistakes your mom made? If
you work on it, you can eventually learn to not make those mistakes,
although I'll admit it'll be hard and take a long time. On the
(hopefully) positive side, are you making the mistakes she made as
often as she did, or less often (or heaven forbid, more often)? If less
often, give yourself some credit for that. :)

> I just want to thank you for sharing your story, it's not always
> easy putting your life out there for people to really see who you
> are. Thanks again.... Debra

It depends on circumstances. Some people refuse to believe women can be
abusive. Sure, I'm an abuse victim, but just about all abusers are
abuse victims, male or female. Anyway, having more or less resolved my
issues with abuse makes it a lot easier to talk about it. I'll admit
that I'll sometimes still say something abusive, and even occasionally
have a violent thought, but I'm definitely no worse than the average
person anymore. If you care about doing something about your abusive
tendencies, there is at least one mailing list out there that deals
with that. It's usually very inactive, but reading the archives might
give you some material to think about, and if you ask a question,
someone might respond. I'm not the only female on that list, btw.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/abuse-free/

This is the website of the guy that owns the list:

http://www.blainn.com/abuse/index.html

A helpful book (although nothing directly to do with abuse) might be:
http://www.amazon.com/Feeling-Good-Handbook-David-Burns/dp/0452281326/sr=8-2/qid=1169680709/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/105-6940443-8373260?ie=UTF8&s=books

The cover/title looks like it's just some slick self-help book, but he
actually writes a lot of useful stuff. Books on assertiveness might
also do a lot of good.

Marieke




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