Mindy Evans

How do you tell if your child is not ready to learn certain things or
is just being lazy and disobedient?
My son has never gone to school. He has a great mind for science,
biology and history, but will have nothing to do with reading, writing
or numbers. I could read books to him all day and he would be content,
but don't ask him to try to sound out a word. He know certain words on
sight, but I only know that because he has let it slip a few times
that he knows what words are on the page. He does know his numbers to
about 100, and he can do simple addition and subtraction in his head,
but the minute I put it into a visual, he tells me "my brain is
shutting down". ????????
Because he is doing it in his head, I know he has the capacity for it.
Anytime we sit down to do any kind of practice like that, he just
refuses. Which I guess thats what unschooling is all about, however, I
feel like he just doesn't even want to try. I am torn between wanting
to let him lead the way and feeling like he will never lead the way to
certain things. Is this normal?
When you are unschooling, is it always nervous like this? I trying to
be openminded, but I am scared I guess. Scared he will one day
say, "Why didn't you put me is school?" "Why didnt you ever MAKE me
practice writing and reading?" He has no interest now, but how do you
know they ever will? And are you doing them a diservice if they NEVER
learn to read or write?
A little freaked out here......
Mindy

TheWildTribe

Oh, Mindy!
You are sure to get many responses to this. But I have one very simple
question for you:

Do you *really* think he'll never learn to read or write? Honestly and
truly?

Surely you have more trust and faith in your child; and that's all you need
to have a beautiful unschooling life!

Enjoy your boy for just who he is right now, that's all we have is RIGHT
HERE and RIGHT NOW...

Don't waste precious time worrying about things that certainly will never
come to pass if he has a loving, supportive mother, which it's obivous that
you are.

Best of luck, and keep reading here and search the archives, you'll learn
oodles and more!
Karen

On 12/5/06, Mindy Evans <mindyevans@...> wrote:
>
> How do you tell if your child is not ready to learn certain things or
> is just being lazy and disobedient?
> My son has never gone to school. He has a great mind for science,
> biology and history, but will have nothing to do with reading, writing
> or numbers. I could read books to him all day and he would be content,
> but don't ask him to try to sound out a word. He know certain words on
> sight, but I only know that because he has let it slip a few times
> that he knows what words are on the page. He does know his numbers to
> about 100, and he can do simple addition and subtraction in his head,
> but the minute I put it into a visual, he tells me "my brain is
> shutting down". ????????
> Because he is doing it in his head, I know he has the capacity for it.
> Anytime we sit down to do any kind of practice like that, he just
> refuses. Which I guess thats what unschooling is all about, however, I
> feel like he just doesn't even want to try. I am torn between wanting
> to let him lead the way and feeling like he will never lead the way to
> certain things. Is this normal?
> When you are unschooling, is it always nervous like this? I trying to
> be openminded, but I am scared I guess. Scared he will one day
> say, "Why didn't you put me is school?" "Why didnt you ever MAKE me
> practice writing and reading?" He has no interest now, but how do you
> know they ever will? And are you doing them a diservice if they NEVER
> learn to read or write?
> A little freaked out here......
> Mindy
>
>
>



--
http://www.thewildtribe.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Christy Mahoney

Maybe you could look at it a bit differently. You said that he "
will have nothing to do with reading, writing or numbers" But then
said "I could read books to him all day and he would be content".
Your reading to him is having a LOT to do with reading. In fact,
that's how a lot (most?) kids learn how to read naturally.

<but don't ask him to try to sound out a word.
-A lot of kids don't learn to read this way. Really.


> Because he is doing it in his head, I know he has the capacity for
it.
-This is contradictory. He is doing it in his head, so he IS doing
it. He may not want to perform for you. My daughter was a lot like
this. She knew how to read but shut down if I or anyone else ever
asked her to read something aloud. Occasionally she would read
something to me, but never if I asked her to. She just wanted to do
it on her own terms.

< And are you doing them a diservice if they NEVER learn to read or
write?
-He is learning to read. You already said so.

I admit that I was a little worried at times that my dd would never
write much. She has difficulty with the physical act of writing and
just plain didn't do it for a long time. But now (at 11yo) she can
certainly write legibly, if not neatly, and she's getting to be
quite a good typist. Without "practicing" or pressure. And now
she's writing stories and starting to post them online.

I would stop asking him to practice things for you and step back for
a while. If he loves for you to read to him - that's huge! It's
amazing to me that my younger daughter is suddenly reading when I
don't read to her nearly as much as I read to her older sister. Not
even close! She likes it, but my older dd really really loved it.

Everyone can get a little freaked out sometimes, but it can
interfere with your son's learning if he thinks that you think he
should be practicing for you and performing for you.

-Christy M.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Dec 5, 2006, at 1:57 PM, Mindy Evans wrote:

> He does know his numbers to
> about 100, and he can do simple addition and subtraction in his head,
> but the minute I put it into a visual, he tells me "my brain is
> shutting down". ????????

Believe him. *Trust* him. He knows what's going on inside his head
better than you do.

Three pieces of advice to help you see this differently:

1) Write down what he *is* doing. So you can see the tremendous
amount of learning that he's doing, even when he's not doing
something that resembles school.

2) Pretend it's summer vacation. Do what he would enjoy without
thoughts of school.

3) Live as though school didn't exist. Look at all the things that
you're trying to get him to do that you wouldn't think of doing if
school didn't exist.

Why are you worried about reading? Because schools do it now.

> Which I guess thats what unschooling is all about, however, I
> feel like he just doesn't even want to try.

And if your husband plunked a carburetor down on the kitchen table
and wanted you to rebuild it, would your disinterest be because you
weren't interested or because you were lazy?

> He has no interest now, but how do you
> know they ever will?

When he was an infant without showing signs of talking or walking,
did you worry?

I haven't read of any unschooling kids -- kids who have a rich
environment and parents who understand unschooling -- who don't
eventually read.

*Lots* of kids in school either don't read or can't read.

The difference *can't* be because the kids aren't taught because
unschooled kids aren't taught to read. The difference is that
schooled kids have reading forced on them before they're interested
or ready.

You can't make kids read. But you can make them not *want to* read!

But you can, while making sure they have positive experiences with
reading, foster an environment where they do eventually read.

Ask yourself if what you're doing is creating positive experiences
with what you want him to do. If not, it's very likely you're pushing
him further and further away from ever wanting anything to do with it.

> I am torn between wanting
> to let him lead the way and feeling like he will never lead the way to
> certain things. Is this normal?

Yes. Perfectly.

While you pretend it's vacation, read more about unschooling. That
will give you something to do instead of hover over him worrying
about what he's not doing.

Read through these two sites and that will keep you plenty occupied
while he goes about the business of learning ;-)

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com

http://sandradodd.com

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debra Rossing

>I could read books to him all day and he would be content, but don't
ask him to try to sound out a word
>He does know his numbers to about 100, and he can do simple addition
and subtraction in his head,
>but the minute I put it into a visual, he tells me "my brain is
shutting down". ????????
>Anytime we sit down to do any kind of practice like that, he just
refuses.

These pieces jumped out at me - have you done any reading on learning
styles? He sounds like an auditory learner but what you're trying to get
him to practice is a visual style (looking at print on a page, that sort
of thing). He IS learning to read (you said so) and learning numbers and
writing WILL happen when HE has a need to put his thoughts down on
paper. Then again, he may just want a tape recorder or voice recognition
software so it can get from his head to the printed page without the
physical act of hand writing it ("penmanship" is a whole other topic
from communicating with words).

Also, don't discount his reading ability just because he *chooses* not
to read books - is he reading signs, cereal boxes, toy catalogs, etc?
That all "counts" as reading even if it isn't what school would consider
valid.

Oh, and you don't say how old he is but I'm guessing he's under age 8
somewhere (maybe 6ish?) - one thing that I did with my DS when he was in
that "almost reading on his own" stage was to flat out ask him if it
would be okay for me to sometimes still read aloud to him because I
liked the cuddling. That made it "okay" for him inside himself to take
that final step to independently reading - he didn't want to because he
didn't want to lose that time together, but once I brought it out in the
open, that it was something *I* didn't want to miss, he said Sure we can
read together sometimes...and proceeded to go from 0 to 60 and be
reading on his own in no time flat. Now he will sometimes ask to read
together and other times he'll get up in the morning and mention
something he was reading the night before because he woke up after
falling asleep and read a while before falling back asleep (he's 8 now).

And, as someone mentioned, he did NOT learn via the standard sound it
out phonics method (we didn't use any curriculum or 'practice' lessons
nor did we try to make him sound words out). Best I can figure, he
swallowed words whole, chewed on them a bit, digested the combinations
and sounds, and built his own "phonics" inside himself that he could
apply to new words. By learning the sound patterns in context (instead
of disembodied letters), he was able to skip the "exceptions" to the
rules and just add to his sound pattern 'blocks' that this combination
does that.

Deb

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<fetteroll@...> wrote:
>> And if your husband plunked a carburetor down on the kitchen
table
> and wanted you to rebuild it, would your disinterest be because
you
> weren't interested or because you were lazy?

Or flat-out intimidated, especially if he were watching. I know that
when *I'm* learning something new, the very last thing I want is an
audience - even if that person is there to help me, its too much
pressure.

This summer I learned to juggle. A friend of mine offered to teach
me. I listened to his explanations, but never picked up a bean-bag
in his presence. I went home and tried the various tips and
suggestions he had offered - but never once let him see me juggle
until I could do several passes without dropping anything.

> *Lots* of kids in school either don't read or can't read.

I used to volunteer for an adult-literacy program. Every single
adult in the program had been to school. Each one had been "taught
to read" - the vast majority with a phonics based approach.

Some people like phonics - my 5yr old loves to play games where she
will think of a word and change one letter and try to pronounce it
or have me pronounce it. That's *her* method, though, not mine.

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Joyce Fetteroll

On Dec 6, 2006, at 8:41 AM, Debra Rossing wrote:

> He sounds like an auditory learner but what you're trying to get
> him to practice is a visual style (looking at print on a page, that
> sort
> of thing).

It's helpful to understand that schools use the techniques they do
not because they're the best to teach kids but because they're best
for *mass education*.

While teachers and administrators may have the goal of providing the
best for each child, they ultimately can't because they're using a
system designed to raise the general level of education of the masses
as cheaply as possible.

The methods they use conform to that goal, *not* to the goal of
helping each child be the best he can be.

Having all kids read by 4th grade serves the needs of the schools and
teachers *not* the children. No child *needs* to read at 9. Though
many manage to and many *want* to, there is nothing that a 9 yo needs
to be a better 9 yo by reading. But it's convenient for the schools
to have every child reading by 4th grade so they can use the same
curriculum on them, and tap into children taking in information
that's handed to them to speed things up. (But not all children in
school are reading by 4th grade. The ones who aren't are pulled out
and given special instruction which, no matter how gently done, gives
them the idea that they're stupid because they can't do what the
"smart" kids can do. :-/)

It doesn't take years to learn how to read. It takes years (usually)
of being around printed matter being exposed to it. It takes needing
and wanting to read. It takes brain development that allows it to
happen (which for some kids happens at 3 and for some kids doesn't
happen until 13 or 14 or 15.) When the brain is ready, kids are
reading in a very short amount of time after they begin. A 15 yo who
has just begun to read is not 9 years behind a 6 yo who has just
begun to read. The 15 yo will be reading at age level within months
and be indistinguishable from peers who started at 6.

Here's something about Gardner's Intelligences that Sandra Dodd
posted. What's important in unschooling is providing what your child
needs, not what a school -- who is trying to keep 30 kids together at
the same level of skills so they can be mass educated by just one
teacher -- would do. If a child needs to run around, then that's the
way he's going to learn best. If a child needs to listen, then that's
the way he's going to learn best.

> Gardner's Intelligences....
> I found a clear article about this. There are lots out there, but
> many are very specialized or focussed in a particular way. This
> one seemed general enough, and I've lifted the descriptions:
>
> Howard Gardner initially formulated a list of seven intelligences.
> His listing was provisional. The first two are ones that have been
> typically valued in schools; the next three are usually associated
> with the arts; and the final two are what Howard Gardner called
> 'personal intelligences' (Gardner 1999: 41-43).
>
> Linguistic intelligence involves sensitivity to spoken and written
> language, the ability to learn languages, and the capacity to use
> language to accomplish certain goals. This intelligence includes
> the ability to effectively use language to express oneself
> rhetorically or poetically; and language as a means to remember
> information. Writers, poets, lawyers and speakers are among those
> that Howard Gardner sees as having high linguistic intelligence.
>
> Logical-mathematical intelligence consists of the capacity to
> analyze problems logically, carry out mathematical operations, and
> investigate issues scientifically. In Howard Gardner's words, in
> entails the ability to detect patterns, reason deductively and
> think logically. This intelligence is most often associated with
> scientific and mathematical thinking.
>
> Musical intelligence involves skill in the performance,
> composition, and appreciation of musical patterns. It encompasses
> the capacity to recognize and compose musical pitches, tones, and
> rhythms. According to Howard Gardner musical intelligence runs in
> an almost structural parallel to linguistic intelligence.
>
> Bodily-kinesthetic intelligence entails the potential of using
> one's whole body or parts of the body to solve problems. It is the
> ability to use mental abilities to coordinate bodily movements.
> Howard Gardner sees mental and physical activity as related.
>
> Spatial intelligence involves the potential to recognize and use
> the patterns of wide space and more confined areas.
>
> Interpersonal intelligence is concerned with the capacity to
> understand the intentions, motivations and desires of other people.
> It allows people to work effectively with others. Educators,
> salespeople, religious and political leaders and counsellors all
> need a well-developed interpersonal intelligence.
>
> Intrapersonal intelligence entails the capacity to understand
> oneself, to appreciate one's feelings, fears and motivations. In
> Howard Gardner's view it involves having an effective working model
> of ourselves, and to be able to use such information to regulate
> our lives.
>
> Added a few years later:
>
> Naturalist intelligence enables human beings to recognize,
> categorize and draw upon certain features of the environment. It
> 'combines a description of the core ability with a characterization
> of the role that many cultures value' (ibid.: 48).
>
>
>
> Other intelligences being considered (and discussed a bit in that
> article) are spiritual, existential and moral (or some blend of
> those, because though people talk about them, they're not settled).
>
> http://www.infed.org/thinkers/gardner.htm

Joyce



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~How do you tell if your child is not ready to learn certain things or
is just being lazy and disobedient?~~

I think it would help you a lot to drop not only these terms in
relation to your child, but the mere thought that he is either of
those negative descriptions.

Lazy happens because someone else has an idea of what a person's
activity level should look like, rather than trusting the person
themselves. "Lazy" doesn't exist in my world, neither does
"disobedience" because having my children obey me is not a goal.

I want them to think for themselves, have their own barometer of what
is good and right for their lives and they won't get that from obeying
me but from discussing, pondering, experimenting and learning in their
own way. We all listen to each other when something important comes
up, rather than having any one group in the house subvert themselves
to authority.

So if learning is the goal, then trust is the first and most important
factor.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Laurie

When I noticed my son "slipping" that he knew words, he was also
reluctant to let me know that he could read. After talking about it
[his reluctance] many times, he finally told me that he was scared I
would stop reading to him if he could read for himself. As soon as I
reassured him that I would read to him anytime, anywhere for as long
as he wants me to read to him, he started openly reading. He's a very
skilled avid reader now, well beyond his schooled friends reading levels.

Perhaps there's a reason that he doesn't want you to know he can read
similar to that. Also, my DS flat refused any writing utensils as a
baby and toddler. Wouldn't color for anything - not that I pushed but
any kind of group setting at that age involves coloring for some
reason. Guess they're not thinking outside the box. ;) When he
turned 4, my 2yr old DD started drawing on the MagnaDoodle. And of
course, she'd bring it to us to draw things and eventually, someone
would write the names of family members. DS started playing with it
and within a week, he was writing his name as well as any other 4yr
old. It was a slow process and I never pushed anything on him but I
did comment on "great job!" (not overly pushy though) when he would
show me something he wrote. He still wasn't a big fan of it but he
and DD have gotten into scrapbooking with me the last year. When I
pull out my supplies, they pull out theirs. And of course this
involves some writing after you get the basics of cutting and gluing
down. Now, just over 6, he's copying words from books for "fun" in a
journal. It's not daily and he doesn't have a love of writing but the
point is that he's picked up the basics with very minimal practice and
would be considered at a "normal 6yr old level" for schools.

He'll get there. My opinion is that someone would have to work very
hard to not learn to read and write when exposed to it daily as our
children are. I didn't use them for this purpose but I've heard that
video games are also a great way to get them to want to read
(especially boys). Not the cheesy "educational" ones but just a good
RPG that requires reading or even something that has a menu you have
to sort through to choose weapons and armor, etc. for your character. ;)

Laurie

--- In [email protected], "Mindy Evans"
<mindyevans@...> wrote:
>
> How do you tell if your child is not ready to learn certain things or
> is just being lazy and disobedient?He know certain words on
> sight, but I only know that because he has let it slip a few times
> that he knows what words are on the page.
> Mindy
>

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "Laurie" <bieberl@...>
wrote:
>>Also, my DS flat refused any writing utensils as a
> baby and toddler. Wouldn't color for anything - not that I pushed
but
> any kind of group setting at that age involves coloring for some
> reason. Guess they're not thinking outside the box. ;) When he
> turned 4, my 2yr old DD started drawing on the MagnaDoodle.

Morgan used to write letters and numbers with a pen (no crayons or
pencils) only on paper. She'd only draw on the chalkboard or floor
in chalk, or with her magnetic drawing board - it got so I'd take a
picture with my digital camera so I'd have something to "save" ;)
Over the last year she's just exploded into drawing on paper and
using a wide variety of implements. Now I have more kid-art than I
know what to do with.

She also started writing letters by using stencils - we came across
a set one day at the dollar store and she was soooooo excited.
Before then she'd trace things but would get really frustrated if
she tried to write on her own and it didn't come out the way she
wanted.

One of the (never-ending) complaints from my stepson's now ex school
was that his handwriting was terrible. On Monday he spray-painted a
big box for Mo to play in and one of the things he painted was her
name. His handwriting is lots better in spray-paint! Maybe it was
just that he was choosing to do something rather than being forced,
or maybe he's finally found his "preferred writing implement".

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Mindy Evans

Wow! You all are an awesome group of information and encouragement,
thank-you! I started to respond to several comments made and realized
it would be a book by the time I was done!!
I am really blessed by this group. I have been so concentrated on
what "the other kids his age" are doing in school, that even though I
don't want to admit it, I am really bowing to the pressure. One minute
I am thinking what a great thing it is to let him learn at his own
pace, the next I am comparing him again.
I hope as I go through this journey, my confidence level in
unschooling becomes solid, because my heart tells me it's the right
thing to do. I am doing lots of reading on it, but I tell you, you
ladies gave me info I hadn't read yet.
Hopefully I can contribute this kind of advice as my son becomes older
and "I" get wiser.
Seems I'm the one who needs concentrate on learning a few things, not
him!
All of your responses were so helpful, I am printing them out for
future encouragement!
Thanks! Mindy