Shannon

A little over a year ago I gave my girlfriend a bunch of information
on unschooling. At the time she was going through a difficult time
with her 14 yr old son who was getting kicked out of schools for his
behavior and she was having financial struggles (still is) with court
fees and juvenile detention centers.
Exhausting all public schools, she turned to unschooling.
It's now been over a year and we talked this morning about how her ds
is doing with unschooling and she said "this unschooling stuff is a
load of crap". She said it's been over a year and he still is doing
nothing with his life. He sits around with his friends getting high
and steals things to support himself. - and that "he is interested in
being a punker and would rather just be a homeless bum." He was into
guitar and getting a band together. She said for a while he was
practicing every day on his own and had lessons for a while, then he
stopped guitar. He picked it up again practicing on his own and then
asked her if he could have lessons again. She said that she paid for
the lessons even though they couldn't afford it and he ended up not going.
She's having to go to court again because ds stole some stuff and
she's sure she'll have to pay more fines. She's really uncertain what
to do. Any ideas? I'm aware this goes a little beyond the topic of
unschooling, but it is life, which is unschooling.
I just wish I could help her out some how. - And what she said about
unschooling being crap - I said, well maybe for him. I think her
expectations were more academic, but that's not what unschooling is
about. I just don't know any more that I can tell her that would help
her to help him or help him to help himself.

Shannon

Joanne

Hi Shannon,

>>>>It's now been over a year and we talked this morning about how
her ds is doing with unschooling and she said "this unschooling
stuff is a load of crap". She said it's been over a year and he
still is doing nothing with his life. He sits around with his
friends getting high and steals things to support himself. - and
that "he is interested in being a punker and would rather just be a
homeless bum.">>>>>

It's not unschooling that's the problem. It doesn't sound like much
unschooling is going on at all from what you described. Sounds like
there are problems within the family. What kind of relationship did
they have before they took him out of school?
You're a good friend for trying to help.

~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (8), Shawna (11) & Cimion (14)
Adopted into our hearts October 2003
************************************
Unschooling Voices ~ Add Your Voice
www.foreverparents.com/UnschoolingVoices.html

Ren Allen

~~It doesn't sound like much
unschooling is going on at all from what you described. ~~

Not at all.
Unschooling isn't just turning kids free and waiting for some
miraculous results...especially when they're already having
challenges. Unschooling is based around relationships and trust. It
doesn't sound like there's much of that going on just yet. She has to
truly understand unschooling for it to take hold in their lives. She
doesn't.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Shannon

What is the best place on the web where I can direct her that would
help her to truly understand unschooling?

Shannon

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> ~~It doesn't sound like much
> unschooling is going on at all from what you described. ~~
>
> Not at all.
> Unschooling isn't just turning kids free and waiting for some
> miraculous results...especially when they're already having
> challenges. Unschooling is based around relationships and trust. It
> doesn't sound like there's much of that going on just yet. She has to
> truly understand unschooling for it to take hold in their lives. She
> doesn't.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>

Shannon

I've sent the comments from the group to my friend and here is what
she's said:

"gee, I feel so much better now. I didn't say unschooling was crap,
it just isn't working here, because someone has no ambition to learn a
damn thing....except about the school of hard knocks. He hasn't
missed a guitar lesson yet, but doesn't practice like he did before
starting lessons. He will consistently make the wrong choice when
given the options of life or drugs, interesting alternatives or
alcohol. I expressed my distaste for the smell of alcohol on his
breath yesterday on the way to guitar lessons and he looked me in the
face and said that he hadn't been drinking, so my remark was that I
was sorry that he fell into a fresh barrel and stunk so badly and that
maybe he could avoid those kinds of accidents in the future by just
staying away from the stuff altogether. Today he has borrowed my book
on horticulture and is filling out an application for the natural food
store. We shall see how long this lasts, usually less than 2 days.
His sister and I had a long discussion last night because she was
crying and upset that her brother is throwing away his life and sadly,
it affects us all, emotionally and financially. I told her that we
could give him a glass of water, but we can't make him drink it. I
also told her how proud I am of the good choices she has made and that
I think she will go far in life and to not let the influence of her
brother drag her down."


--- In [email protected], "Joanne"
<billyandjoanne@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Shannon,
>
> >>>>It's now been over a year and we talked this morning about how
> her ds is doing with unschooling and she said "this unschooling
> stuff is a load of crap". She said it's been over a year and he
> still is doing nothing with his life. He sits around with his
> friends getting high and steals things to support himself. - and
> that "he is interested in being a punker and would rather just be a
> homeless bum.">>>>>
>
> It's not unschooling that's the problem. It doesn't sound like much
> unschooling is going on at all from what you described. Sounds like
> there are problems within the family. What kind of relationship did
> they have before they took him out of school?
> You're a good friend for trying to help.
>
> ~ Joanne ~
> Mom to Jacqueline (8), Shawna (11) & Cimion (14)
> Adopted into our hearts October 2003
> ************************************
> Unschooling Voices ~ Add Your Voice
> www.foreverparents.com/UnschoolingVoices.html
>

jlh44music

"Shannon" <dez.shannon@...> wrote:
> What is the best place on the web where I can direct her that would
help her to truly understand unschooling?>

My favorites:
WEBSITES:
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/

http://sandradodd.com/

http://www.nhen.org/teens/default.asp?id=2 (has info on both
traditional homeschooling and unschooling)


BOOKS:
Parenting a Free Child by Rue Kream

The Teenage Liberation Handbook: How to Quit School and Get a Real
Life and Education By Grace Llewellyn

Guerrilla Learning: How to Give Your Kids a Real Education With or
Without School By Grace Llewellyn

Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling By
John Taylor Gatto

Anything by John Holt:
Learning All The Time
How Children Learn
How Children Fail
Teach your own
Jann

Michelle Leifur Reid

On 12/5/06, Shannon <dez.shannon@...> wrote:
> I've sent the comments from the group to my friend and here is what
> she's said:
>
> "gee, I feel so much better now. I didn't say unschooling was crap,
> it just isn't working here, because someone has no ambition to learn a
> damn thing....except about the school of hard knocks. He hasn't
> missed a guitar lesson yet, but doesn't practice like he did before
> starting lessons. He will consistently make the wrong choice when
> given the options of life or drugs, interesting alternatives or
> alcohol. I expressed my distaste for the smell of alcohol on his
> breath yesterday on the way to guitar lessons and he looked me in the
> face and said that he hadn't been drinking, so my remark was that I
> was sorry that he fell into a fresh barrel and stunk so badly and that
> maybe he could avoid those kinds of accidents in the future by just
> staying away from the stuff altogether.

Hmmm. I probably would have responded with, "I'm sorry to accuse you.
Your breath smelled strongly alcoholic. Perhaps we should see a
doctor and have you tested for diabetes as an alcohol smell to the
breath is one sign of diabetes."


Today he has borrowed my book
> on horticulture and is filling out an application for the natural food
> store. We shall see how long this lasts, usually less than 2 days.

Sounds like he is living up to your expectations.


> His sister and I had a long discussion last night because she was
> crying and upset that her brother is throwing away his life and sadly,
> it affects us all, emotionally and financially. I told her that we
> could give him a glass of water, but we can't make him drink it. I
> also told her how proud I am of the good choices she has made and that
> I think she will go far in life and to not let the influence of her
> brother drag her down."

Throwing his life away? I think he is working through some issues
with the given skills that he has and with the trust that he feels he
has from his family. Perhaps he feels compared to his sister who
seems nearly perfect in his parents eyes in comparison with how he
feels about himself. NOt that that is the truth, but how he may feel.
I grew up believing that my brother was the more perfect child
because he was strong, athletic, good looking, didn't need braces or
glasses and did "just ok" in school. My brother grew up believing
that I was the more perfect child because I was cute, spunky, witty,
wordly, and made good grades in school and completed many challenging
things through Girl Scouts. In truth my parents were proud of both of
us for different reasons. This may be exagerated in your situation
because there is one child who seems perfectly perfect and another
child who is seen as "throwing his life away."

Michelle

Elissa Jill

I think it is extremely difficult to give advice to someone not on the list. Maybe this mom would like to join and become involved in the discussion?
Elissa Jill
A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
"A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shannon

That sounds like a great idea. I'll send her the link and ask her if
she'd like to join.

Shannon

--- In [email protected], "Elissa Jill"
<MystikMomma@...> wrote:
>
> I think it is extremely difficult to give advice to someone not on
the list. Maybe this mom would like to join and become involved in the
discussion?
> Elissa Jill
> A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
> "A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: dez.shannon@...

I've sent the comments from the group to my friend and here is what
she's said:

"gee, I feel so much better now. I didn't say unschooling was crap,
it just isn't working here, because someone has no ambition to learn a
damn thing....except about the school of hard knocks. He hasn't
missed a guitar lesson yet, but doesn't practice like he did before
starting lessons. He will consistently make the wrong choice when
given the options of life or drugs, interesting alternatives or
alcohol. I expressed my distaste for the smell of alcohol on his
breath yesterday on the way to guitar lessons and he looked me in the
face and said that he hadn't been drinking, so my remark was that I
was sorry that he fell into a fresh barrel and stunk so badly and that
maybe he could avoid those kinds of accidents in the future by just
staying away from the stuff altogether. Today he has borrowed my book
on horticulture and is filling out an application for the natural food
store. We shall see how long this lasts, usually less than 2 days.
His sister and I had a long discussion last night because she was
crying and upset that her brother is throwing away his life and sadly,
it affects us all, emotionally and financially. I told her that we
could give him a glass of water, but we can't make him drink it. I
also told her how proud I am of the good choices she has made and that
I think she will go far in life and to not let the influence of her
brother drag her down."

-=-=-=-

I agree with Elissa that she should join the list if she would like to
learn more. Trying to do it one-on-one is hard enough, but via a third
party would be right near impossible.

Her way of talking about him is horribly negative.

Breaking it down:

I didn't say unschooling was crap,
it just isn't working here, because someone has no ambition to learn a
damn thing....except about the school of hard knocks.

-=-=-=-=-=-

"Someone" might need to learn more about how to talk with a child. If
this is how she talks to him and about him, I can't imagine how
unschooling would work there. How's your ambition, Mom? Eager to learn
more? Or is it just a waste of time?

-=-=-=-==-

He hasn't missed a guitar lesson yet, but doesn't practice like he
did before
starting lessons.

-=-==-

Maybe he doesn't like the teacher. Maybe he's being given distasteful
"homework" or drills instead of something he actually *wants* to learn.

-=-=-=-=-=-

He will consistently make the wrong choice when
given the options of life or drugs, interesting alternatives or
alcohol.

-=-=-=-=-

A choice between life and drugs? No in-between?

Between "interesting alternatives" and alcohol? What's interesting to
HIM? Do you even know?

-=-=-=-=-

I expressed my distaste for the smell of alcohol on his
breath yesterday on the way to guitar lessons and he looked me in the
face and said that he hadn't been drinking, so my remark was that I
was sorry that he fell into a fresh barrel and stunk so badly and that
maybe he could avoid those kinds of accidents in the future by just
staying away from the stuff altogether.

-=-=-=-=-

ANd yet you expect him to confide in you and tell you about his day? To
trust you to come to his aid if he needs you? To trust what he says is
true? To respect his choices?

This will only get worse. Much, much worse.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Today he has borrowed my book
on horticulture and is filling out an application for the natural food
store. We shall see how long this lasts, usually less than 2 days.

-=-=-=-=-

Your confidence is overwhelming. I see where he gets his.

-=-=-=-=-

His sister and I had a long discussion last night because she was
crying and upset that her brother is throwing away his life and sadly,
it affects us all, emotionally and financially.

-=-=-=-=-

Great. Now it's "Us" vs. "Him"---I wonder how that makes him feel?

-=-=-=-=-=-

I told her that we could give him a glass of water, but we can't make
him drink it.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Ditto. You can keep up this attitude that he's throwing his life away.
OR you can get to know and trust and respect him. We can show you how.

But as you said: We can give you a glass of water....

-=-=-=-=-

I also told her how proud I am of the good choices she has made and
that
I think she will go far in life and to not let the influence of her
brother drag her down."

-=-=-=--

Great. Stoke that fire.

~Kelly







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Shannon

Kelly,

I liked your insight regarding this situation. I think it helps so much when someone outside is looking in.
Talking with my friend about her situation, I wasn't really sure what the basis of the problem is/was.

After reading your reply, I had an "AHA!" moment of my own. I thought to myself, it's a test. It's all a test. - A test of love. (I'm not trying to be mushy here, I'm serious) I think we all have lessons to learn and the basis of every lesson is love. My two boys are expressions of love who are here to teach me love, and vis versa. Boy, do I get tested! The test is whether I will love them unconditionally or not. - No matter what they do, will I love them through it no matter who they are? Which brings to the point, trust. Trust = loving unconditionally. I don't think you can have one without the other.

In the case of my friend and her son, he is 'testing' her to see if he will be loved unconditionally - which is actually her universal lesson. As long as it's proven that he is not being loved unconditionally, the testing (i.e. the problems between them [ds and the family]) are just going to continue and possibly get worse. - And it could all be changed with something as simple as their perspective of their relationship with him. If they were to accept him as they accept their other children, that would make the difference in the whole world. - I feel that her ds wouldn't be testing her as much as he is now if she was to change her perspective. In essence, he is not the problem, the problem is that he's not feeling accepted or loved unconditionally. His behavior is a cry for what he really needs and they just see the behavior.

Am I making any sense? Or is this just rambling in my own head? Just thought I'd let you know that your comments really resonated with me.

I'm encouraging her to join this group, and I really hope she does.

Shannon



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: dez.shannon@...

I'm encouraging her to join this group, and I really hope she does.

-=-=-=-

I don't know whether she could handle it. Really.

I'm glad you had some insights.

I don't think he's really "testing" her. I think he's
communicating---maybe in the only way he knows that *used to* work.
She's not listening. At all. She's covering her ears and singing
"lalala"---completely ignoring his language.

If you think she's open to listening, great. But I'm guessing we'd just
piss her off.

~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@...

But I'm guessing we'd just piss her off.

-=-=-=-

OKOK---maybe not *we*---but probably *I* would! <G>

~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

Debra Rossing

>>I think he's communicating---maybe in the only way he knows that *used
to* work.

I had a discussion with DS just last week about something similar. He's
8 1/2 and when he goes to MIL's (one evening per month for about 2 hrs),
his 3 yr old cousin is there (he lives there). DS was really really
really frustrated the last time because T always wants whatever DS has,
right up to trying to snatch things out of his hands. If DS doesn't
relinquish it ASAP, T yells -at- DS. Not just crying because he doesn't
have something but out and out yelling -at- someone. DS really restrains
his self and doesn't yell back or hit or anything (a mighty effort
sometimes - he sometimes comes out and runs laps around the car before
climbing in to release the stress). I tried to explain to DS that that
is the only way T knows to communicate when he needs/wants something
because that's all he hears and usually the only thing that works - FIL,
MIL, and both of DH's siblings living at home (T's mom is one of them)
pretty much just yell most of the time when they're not nitpicking and
sniping and as a 3 yr old in a houseful of adults, T gets yelled at
pretty often (and even more just prior to that event because of some
stresses going on there). It's not something DS is used to. By and
large, yelling at our house is venting ARGHHHH! then calming down and
talking things out, not yelling AT someone (not perfectly but that's
what we're aiming toward).

(PS this event was the only time that MIL has said they had trouble
while we were gone. Usually she says they were fine up until we arrived
to pick up DS. Also, the arrangements are changing - MIL & FIL are
moving so DS' visits with Grandma and Grandpa will be sans T as of next
week. Just clarifying so no one gets concerned that we're leaving DS in
an untenable situation)

Deb

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sherkinpirate

I'm new here and haven't introduced myself yet but I just wanted to
make a suggestion:
Your friend's son is in what has always been regarded as a critical
stage of transition to adulthood, but is seldom celebrated as such in
our culture. You may want to suggest that she gives him the book Iron
John by Robert Bly which is all about this initiation to male adulthood.

**pirate king**