what would you say?
cris
The following was posted on my local list. Obviously, the poster is
not an unschooler, but I would like to offer something because my
heart goes out to her boy. However I'm afraid my indignation will
come through a little too strongly ;)
I'm wondering if some of you might could offer something more delicate
yet to the point, without actually mentioning the word 'unschool'
iykwim. thanks, cris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I need some advice. My 5th grader has some learning issues related to
his Tourettes Syndrome, mostly very poor memory recall. His other
subjects he does fine but continues to lag behind mostly because he
has such difficulty memorizing his multiplication/addition/subtraction
and division facts. He understands math and some days has no
difficulties, most days that's not the case. We've tried flash cards,
rote memorization, computer games (timez attack) and a multitude of
other things. Tutors have no ideas on what to do nor does the
occupational therapist. Everyone has just suggested that we let him
use a multiplication table which we do on occasion but I have issues
with him depending on it. We are both becoming quickly frustrated and
he is falling behind. Has anyone used any math program, books,
anything that can help us.
not an unschooler, but I would like to offer something because my
heart goes out to her boy. However I'm afraid my indignation will
come through a little too strongly ;)
I'm wondering if some of you might could offer something more delicate
yet to the point, without actually mentioning the word 'unschool'
iykwim. thanks, cris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I need some advice. My 5th grader has some learning issues related to
his Tourettes Syndrome, mostly very poor memory recall. His other
subjects he does fine but continues to lag behind mostly because he
has such difficulty memorizing his multiplication/addition/subtraction
and division facts. He understands math and some days has no
difficulties, most days that's not the case. We've tried flash cards,
rote memorization, computer games (timez attack) and a multitude of
other things. Tutors have no ideas on what to do nor does the
occupational therapist. Everyone has just suggested that we let him
use a multiplication table which we do on occasion but I have issues
with him depending on it. We are both becoming quickly frustrated and
he is falling behind. Has anyone used any math program, books,
anything that can help us.
Rebecca De Hate
Cris,
So if this women is grasping for something.. then maybe just
maybe a straight forward approach like -- "hey why don't you just
let him be.. You know he has a 'disability' and they want to label
him as learning disabled too... then just let him go at his own
pace" maybe even mention the unschooling/homeschooling idea (gasp)
heck you never know she may just not know that it really is an
option. To me they are just going to frustrate this boy if they
keep pushing. Maybe ask her if they think he will truly use math?
and to perhaps try having him use math in realistic life situations
and see how he does (ie. counting back change). If he does pretty
good then remind him that he probably won't even do his times tables
in real life anyway.. and if he does he will find a way to do it.
Remind her to think about it.. that if he goes into a position that
requires 'math' it's most likely he can just use the calculator
and/or the computer anyway to do the computations. ok I'm bablling
I'm sure you thought of all this anyway -- I just got a little
excited because I am becoming more used to the unschooling ideas
myself.... Basically just share with her the ideas you have... I'm
sure since you are already worried about stepping on toes you will
say it what every you need to correctly. (obviously she's asking for
help, so what do you have to lose -- her saying oh no I couldn't
homeschool blah, blah bla()
--- In [email protected], "cris" <muddpies@...>
wrote:
So if this women is grasping for something.. then maybe just
maybe a straight forward approach like -- "hey why don't you just
let him be.. You know he has a 'disability' and they want to label
him as learning disabled too... then just let him go at his own
pace" maybe even mention the unschooling/homeschooling idea (gasp)
heck you never know she may just not know that it really is an
option. To me they are just going to frustrate this boy if they
keep pushing. Maybe ask her if they think he will truly use math?
and to perhaps try having him use math in realistic life situations
and see how he does (ie. counting back change). If he does pretty
good then remind him that he probably won't even do his times tables
in real life anyway.. and if he does he will find a way to do it.
Remind her to think about it.. that if he goes into a position that
requires 'math' it's most likely he can just use the calculator
and/or the computer anyway to do the computations. ok I'm bablling
I'm sure you thought of all this anyway -- I just got a little
excited because I am becoming more used to the unschooling ideas
myself.... Basically just share with her the ideas you have... I'm
sure since you are already worried about stepping on toes you will
say it what every you need to correctly. (obviously she's asking for
help, so what do you have to lose -- her saying oh no I couldn't
homeschool blah, blah bla()
--- In [email protected], "cris" <muddpies@...>
wrote:
>is
> The following was posted on my local list. Obviously, the poster
> not an unschooler, but I would like to offer something because mydelicate
> heart goes out to her boy. However I'm afraid my indignation will
> come through a little too strongly ;)
> I'm wondering if some of you might could offer something more
> yet to the point, without actually mentioning the word 'unschool'to
> iykwim. thanks, cris
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> I need some advice. My 5th grader has some learning issues related
> his Tourettes Syndrome, mostly very poor memory recall. His othermultiplication/addition/subtraction
> subjects he does fine but continues to lag behind mostly because he
> has such difficulty memorizing his
> and division facts. He understands math and some days has nocards,
> difficulties, most days that's not the case. We've tried flash
> rote memorization, computer games (timez attack) and a multitude ofissues
> other things. Tutors have no ideas on what to do nor does the
> occupational therapist. Everyone has just suggested that we let him
> use a multiplication table which we do on occasion but I have
> with him depending on it. We are both becoming quickly frustratedand
> he is falling behind. Has anyone used any math program, books,
> anything that can help us.
>
Joanne
Here's what I would say:
*********************************************
It sounds very frustrating for the both of you. Have you ever
considered relaxing your methods a bit? Maybe look for ways that
multiplication comes up in your daily life and discuss that instead
of trying to make him memorize something that he's having difficuly
with.
My son also has memory issues (due to frontal lobe brain injury). We
play lots of memory games, like turning over cards and trying to
match them or looking at a picture, turning it over and then writing
all the things you remember.
************************************************
Hope this helps!
~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (8), Shawna (11) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 2003
************************************
Unschooling Voices ~ Add Your Voice
www.foreverparents.com/UnschoolingVoices.html
--- In [email protected], "cris" <muddpies@...>
wrote:
*********************************************
It sounds very frustrating for the both of you. Have you ever
considered relaxing your methods a bit? Maybe look for ways that
multiplication comes up in your daily life and discuss that instead
of trying to make him memorize something that he's having difficuly
with.
My son also has memory issues (due to frontal lobe brain injury). We
play lots of memory games, like turning over cards and trying to
match them or looking at a picture, turning it over and then writing
all the things you remember.
************************************************
Hope this helps!
~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (8), Shawna (11) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 2003
************************************
Unschooling Voices ~ Add Your Voice
www.foreverparents.com/UnschoolingVoices.html
--- In [email protected], "cris" <muddpies@...>
wrote:
>is
> The following was posted on my local list. Obviously, the poster
> not an unschooler, but I would like to offer something because mydelicate
> heart goes out to her boy. However I'm afraid my indignation will
> come through a little too strongly ;)
> I'm wondering if some of you might could offer something more
> yet to the point, without actually mentioning the word 'unschool'to
> iykwim. thanks, cris
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> I need some advice. My 5th grader has some learning issues related
> his Tourettes Syndrome, mostly very poor memory recall. His othermultiplication/addition/subtraction
> subjects he does fine but continues to lag behind mostly because he
> has such difficulty memorizing his
> and division facts. He understands math and some days has nocards,
> difficulties, most days that's not the case. We've tried flash
> rote memorization, computer games (timez attack) and a multitude ofissues
> other things. Tutors have no ideas on what to do nor does the
> occupational therapist. Everyone has just suggested that we let him
> use a multiplication table which we do on occasion but I have
> with him depending on it. We are both becoming quickly frustratedand
> he is falling behind. Has anyone used any math program, books,
> anything that can help us.
>
Kelly Weyd
Poor little guy needs to be left alone, but I know that's hard to tell someone.
Kelly
cris <muddpies@...> wrote:
The following was posted on my local list. Obviously, the poster is
not an unschooler, but I would like to offer something because my
heart goes out to her boy. However I'm afraid my indignation will
come through a little too strongly ;)
I'm wondering if some of you might could offer something more delicate
yet to the point, without actually mentioning the word 'unschool'
iykwim. thanks, cris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I need some advice. My 5th grader has some learning issues related to
his Tourettes Syndrome, mostly very poor memory recall. His other
subjects he does fine but continues to lag behind mostly because he
has such difficulty memorizing his multiplication/addition/subtraction
and division facts. He understands math and some days has no
difficulties, most days that's not the case. We've tried flash cards,
rote memorization, computer games (timez attack) and a multitude of
other things. Tutors have no ideas on what to do nor does the
occupational therapist. Everyone has just suggested that we let him
use a multiplication table which we do on occasion but I have issues
with him depending on it. We are both becoming quickly frustrated and
he is falling behind. Has anyone used any math program, books,
anything that can help us.
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly
cris <muddpies@...> wrote:
The following was posted on my local list. Obviously, the poster is
not an unschooler, but I would like to offer something because my
heart goes out to her boy. However I'm afraid my indignation will
come through a little too strongly ;)
I'm wondering if some of you might could offer something more delicate
yet to the point, without actually mentioning the word 'unschool'
iykwim. thanks, cris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I need some advice. My 5th grader has some learning issues related to
his Tourettes Syndrome, mostly very poor memory recall. His other
subjects he does fine but continues to lag behind mostly because he
has such difficulty memorizing his multiplication/addition/subtraction
and division facts. He understands math and some days has no
difficulties, most days that's not the case. We've tried flash cards,
rote memorization, computer games (timez attack) and a multitude of
other things. Tutors have no ideas on what to do nor does the
occupational therapist. Everyone has just suggested that we let him
use a multiplication table which we do on occasion but I have issues
with him depending on it. We are both becoming quickly frustrated and
he is falling behind. Has anyone used any math program, books,
anything that can help us.
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Manisha Kher
Could you ask her what her objections are to using
multiplcation table or a calculator? I have no memory
for phone-numbers, I look them up when I need them. I
miss every meeting at work unless I have an alarm set
on my computer that beeps 15 minutes before and then 5
minutes before the meeting. I don't see using the
caluculator as anything different than that.
In real life, he'll never need multiplication tables.
What he'll need is making change.
Manisha
--- cris <muddpies@...> wrote:
-----
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
multiplcation table or a calculator? I have no memory
for phone-numbers, I look them up when I need them. I
miss every meeting at work unless I have an alarm set
on my computer that beeps 15 minutes before and then 5
minutes before the meeting. I don't see using the
caluculator as anything different than that.
In real life, he'll never need multiplication tables.
What he'll need is making change.
Manisha
--- cris <muddpies@...> wrote:
-----
> >mailto:[email protected]
> I need some advice. My 5th grader has some learning
> issues related to
> his Tourettes Syndrome, mostly very poor memory
> recall. His other
> subjects he does fine but continues to lag behind
> mostly because he
> has such difficulty memorizing his
> multiplication/addition/subtraction
> and division facts. He understands math and some
> days has no
> difficulties, most days that's not the case. We've
> tried flash cards,
> rote memorization, computer games (timez attack) and
> a multitude of
> other things. Tutors have no ideas on what to do nor
> does the
> occupational therapist. Everyone has just suggested
> that we let him
> use a multiplication table which we do on occasion
> but I have issues
> with him depending on it. We are both becoming
> quickly frustrated and
> he is falling behind. Has anyone used any math
> program, books,
> anything that can help us.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> (Yahoo! ID required)
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>
>
>
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Deb
--- In [email protected], Kelly Weyd <kellmar98@...>
wrote:
table on graph paper - we filled it all in (1-20 I believe it was) and
we could color it or decorate it any way we chose. Then it was
laminated and hole punched and we could use it at will (the hole
punching was so we could keep it right in our 3 ring notebook so it'd
be handy or we could use yarn and tie it to our desk so it would
always be there). We were allowed to refer to it at will -except-
during tests. The thing was, over time, we all referred to it less and
less. At first, it was "necessary" for many kids. Then it
became "handy" to check their work. Then it became "just in case when
I'm not sure". Then it became more work than it was worth because most
kids had memorized it simply by using the chart over and over and over
again.
The other thing I might comment on is that it is *her* issue - it's
not a problem with the OT, PT, tutors, anyone else BUT her. Why this
is such an issue to her might be worth exploring. If her DS *never*
memorizes the multiplication table, what then? Honestly explore the
Worst Case Scenario. What is her fear here - because that's what it is
mostly, her fear.
--Deb
wrote:
>tell someone.
> Poor little guy needs to be left alone, but I know that's hard to
> KellyWhen I was in 5th grade I vividly remember making a multiplication
>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> I need some advice. My 5th grader ... Everyone has just suggested
>that we let him
> use a multiplication table which we do on occasion but I have >issues
> with him depending on it.
table on graph paper - we filled it all in (1-20 I believe it was) and
we could color it or decorate it any way we chose. Then it was
laminated and hole punched and we could use it at will (the hole
punching was so we could keep it right in our 3 ring notebook so it'd
be handy or we could use yarn and tie it to our desk so it would
always be there). We were allowed to refer to it at will -except-
during tests. The thing was, over time, we all referred to it less and
less. At first, it was "necessary" for many kids. Then it
became "handy" to check their work. Then it became "just in case when
I'm not sure". Then it became more work than it was worth because most
kids had memorized it simply by using the chart over and over and over
again.
The other thing I might comment on is that it is *her* issue - it's
not a problem with the OT, PT, tutors, anyone else BUT her. Why this
is such an issue to her might be worth exploring. If her DS *never*
memorizes the multiplication table, what then? Honestly explore the
Worst Case Scenario. What is her fear here - because that's what it is
mostly, her fear.
--Deb
Michelle Leifur Reid
On 10/25/06, Manisha Kher <m_kher@...> wrote:
I'm the same way. I use tools. Recipes are tools, calculators are
tools, computers are tools, the periodic table of elements is a tool.
Scientists rarely memorize that table. They eventually become
familiar with common elements (or those that they work with often) in
the same way that chocolate chip cookies are familiar to me. But in
most science research labs you will find that chart hung on the wall.
Are scientists cheating? No; they are using tools! And by knowing
how to use those tools he will eventually learn the things he needs
(even if it is to better utilize the tools he has been given!)
Michelle
> Could you ask her what her objections are to usingManisha has a point. Learning to use tools is an important skill.
> multiplcation table or a calculator? I have no memory
> for phone-numbers, I look them up when I need them.
I'm the same way. I use tools. Recipes are tools, calculators are
tools, computers are tools, the periodic table of elements is a tool.
Scientists rarely memorize that table. They eventually become
familiar with common elements (or those that they work with often) in
the same way that chocolate chip cookies are familiar to me. But in
most science research labs you will find that chart hung on the wall.
Are scientists cheating? No; they are using tools! And by knowing
how to use those tools he will eventually learn the things he needs
(even if it is to better utilize the tools he has been given!)
Michelle
jdyclaire
> > Poor little guy needs to be left alone, but I know that's hard toYou might try asking if there is a Tourette support group in her area.
> tell someone.
As Mom to two boys with Tourette, I found meeting adults with it
helped me relax. I went through the same worries as her before I found
unschooling. My son kept telling me that he didn't need to memorize
because he could use a calculator. It wasn't until I met a Mom at the
support group who had her MA in math but couldn't remember her times
tables that I realized my boy was right (guess I'm a slow learner).
The Tourette Syndrome Foundation of Canada sells a Handbook for
Educators online that she might find helpful in adjusting her own
attitudes.
You could tell her about the homeschool HS Plus yahoo group. It's run
by a woman with Tourettes who has a relaxed attitude.
Everyday, I'm grateful to have had children who turned my view of life
& success upside down.
Judy
Colin (23), Mike (21), & Nick (13)
laura g
i never learned my multiplication tables. i have a very difficult time
remembering numbers etc. i dont really memorize things well at all. I have
a B.S. in biology and got descent grades in many math and science classes.
Got a M.A. as well. Got a job that made descent money all with no
multiplication tables... still do them on my fingers or by adding in my
head.
Try Search Survival Kits: Fix up your home and better handle your cash with
Live Search!
http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en-US&source=hmtagline
remembering numbers etc. i dont really memorize things well at all. I have
a B.S. in biology and got descent grades in many math and science classes.
Got a M.A. as well. Got a job that made descent money all with no
multiplication tables... still do them on my fingers or by adding in my
head.
>From: Manisha Kher <m_kher@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] what would you say?
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>
>Could you ask her what her objections are to using
>multiplcation table or a calculator? I have no memory
>for phone-numbers, I look them up when I need them. I
>miss every meeting at work unless I have an alarm set
>on my computer that beeps 15 minutes before and then 5
>minutes before the meeting. I don't see using the
>caluculator as anything different than that.
>
>In real life, he'll never need multiplication tables.
>What he'll need is making change.
>
>Manisha
>
>--- cris <muddpies@...> wrote:
>
>-----
> > >
> > I need some advice. My 5th grader has some learning
> > issues related to
> > his Tourettes Syndrome, mostly very poor memory
> > recall. His other
> > subjects he does fine but continues to lag behind
> > mostly because he
> > has such difficulty memorizing his
> > multiplication/addition/subtraction
> > and division facts. He understands math and some
> > days has no
> > difficulties, most days that's not the case. We've
> > tried flash cards,
> > rote memorization, computer games (timez attack) and
> > a multitude of
> > other things. Tutors have no ideas on what to do nor
> > does the
> > occupational therapist. Everyone has just suggested
> > that we let him
> > use a multiplication table which we do on occasion
> > but I have issues
> > with him depending on it. We are both becoming
> > quickly frustrated and
> > he is falling behind. Has anyone used any math
> > program, books,
> > anything that can help us.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > (Yahoo! ID required)
> >
> >
>mailto:[email protected]
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com
Try Search Survival Kits: Fix up your home and better handle your cash with
Live Search!
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themockingbirdsings
--- In [email protected], Manisha Kher <m_kher@...>
wrote:
and often and she is really learning,and so proud of herself.
wrote:
>Just a thought....my 9 y old daughter absolutely LOVESmultiflyer.com........for multiplication ....does it all on her own
and often and she is really learning,and so proud of herself.
> Could you ask her what her objections are to using
> multiplcation table or a calculator? I have no memory
> for phone-numbers, I look them up when I need them. I
> miss every meeting at work unless I have an alarm set
> on my computer that beeps 15 minutes before and then 5
> minutes before the meeting. I don't see using the
> caluculator as anything different than that.
>
> In real life, he'll never need multiplication tables.
> What he'll need is making change.
>
> Manisha
>
> --- cris <muddpies@...> wrote:
>
> -----
> > >
> > I need some advice. My 5th grader has some learning
> > issues related to
> > his Tourettes Syndrome, mostly very poor memory
> > recall. His other
> > subjects he does fine but continues to lag behind
> > mostly because he
> > has such difficulty memorizing his
> > multiplication/addition/subtraction
> > and division facts. He understands math and some
> > days has no
> > difficulties, most days that's not the case. We've
> > tried flash cards,
> > rote memorization, computer games (timez attack) and
> > a multitude of
> > other things. Tutors have no ideas on what to do nor
> > does the
> > occupational therapist. Everyone has just suggested
> > that we let him
> > use a multiplication table which we do on occasion
> > but I have issues
> > with him depending on it. We are both becoming
> > quickly frustrated and
> > he is falling behind. Has anyone used any math
> > program, books,
> > anything that can help us.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > (Yahoo! ID required)
> >
> >
> mailto:[email protected]
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
cris
To all who responded,
thank you, thank you, for the wonderful thoughts and ideas. I'm happy
to say that others on my local list stepped up with some IMO
meaningful and helpful ideas, and not just a bunch of curriculum
recommendations!
I'd like to save all your responses, anonymously, for future use in
similar situations. If anyone objects, let me know privately?
again, thanks so much for your thoughtfulness.
cris
thank you, thank you, for the wonderful thoughts and ideas. I'm happy
to say that others on my local list stepped up with some IMO
meaningful and helpful ideas, and not just a bunch of curriculum
recommendations!
I'd like to save all your responses, anonymously, for future use in
similar situations. If anyone objects, let me know privately?
again, thanks so much for your thoughtfulness.
cris