Beth Mouser

I just witnessed my 12-YO son kick his 10-YO brother who was on the
ground. My boys were playing the Playstation II very nicely
together. I received a phone call and went upstairs to my bedroom to
get some information. When I came back down within 5 minutes, my
older son was laying on top of his younger brother holding him down
in a tight grip and looking very angry. I told him to get off his
brother and he said "no" and that his younger brother would attack
him. I said that he wouldn't and neither of them should hurt each
other and repeated for him to get off of him. He did get up and my
younger son didn't do anything--just continued lying on the ground.
But my older son pushed on him hard as he got up and then kicked him
once he stood up before he walked away. I said that I couldn't
believe he just did that and he said that his younger brother had
attacked him earlier. My younger son replied that he attacked him
because he was saying very mean things and couldn't take it anymore.
My younger son wants me to punish older bro for kicking him,
especially since I was standing right there and told them not to hurt
each other. I am not sure what to do if I can't use punishment. I
posted about this earlier and it was suggested that I watch them
closer. I have been doing this, but I can't watch them every second.
We have a 3-story house. In the past, I have punished both boys for
hitting by having them write 10 sentences or doing something nice for
other brother as retribution. Now I try to talk to them about how
it's not okay to hurt people and that if they behave this way as
adults, they will be punished or in jail. I don't want my older son
thinking he can get away with hurting his little brother whenever he
is annoyed. He acts like a bully at times. I have been poring over
books trying to find answers, but haven't found a whole lot. Sibling
Rivalry says to give attention to the victim and ignore the
aggressor. It also says to make a comment like "hit a pillow when
your angry not your brother". I do try to be there to intervene, but
now that my older son realizes he is not going to be punished, he is
blatantly pushing, hitting, and kicking younger brother even when I
am standing right there.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks,
Beth

freida

Hi Beth,
I have three teen boys (18,16, and 14) the pre-teens are the hardest
time for boys. At the time my eldest was going thought it, I pretty
much went though it alone. Been divorced since my eldest was five at
the time. Personally I don't call it rivalry, I call it the little
bull syndrome. I don't know if you know much about cattle, and being
raise with animals I remember watching the same behavior with the
young bulls. If you ever watch little bulls bunting their heads
together and driving the other back. This is to deter mend the
pecking order. when my eldest is beginning to get the hormones he was
angry and the tears would flow(the poor kid). He didn't realize what
is going on with himself. I would send him into his room and calm the
other boys. I had three of them and it is really hard for them all.
The younger ones didn't understand either. Then when everything was
calm i would go and talk to the eldest by himself. I would ask him
what going on and they will go though the blame game. But in time you
will get to the problem. I really got good at reading his body for
stress. In time with working with him and the others I got them to say
"I need to talk to you".
Yes I have read books on rivalry and different issue on raising
children. Then in the end I went with what felt right when working
with my boys. I never really punish the boys by making them write or
to sit in the corner till they come down. When i did try to put them
in the corner i would give them a book such as the Britannica. Then
the boys would ask me questions about things in the book and before
you knew it, i was in time out having a great time with the boys
looking at the books. All this pretty much told me, was that i wasn't
giving the boy what they needed.
Then my second you was creeping into the age but he would take the
next step up to grabbing any thing that was handy to give a good
wallop to the boy that was bothering him. So hammers and any thing
that could do real damage was moved doing his cycle. He was a very
angry boy. When the two eldest would start hitting each other I would
step out of the way or tell them to take it out side. Either way they
would come back to earth and I would ask them if it was fun? That
would startle them. Both of them would say "no" and I would ask if it
"was worth it?" then they would shake their heads and admit that it
was stupid.
Third son well he is different to he turned into a hermit. He
watched what was going through with his elder brothers. He didn't give
into the emotional conflict. He was in the school system and refused
to do home work. He stayed back one year and they same crap was going
on the second year and i pulled him. This boy would skip school and go
to the local library to read
Today I'm happy to admit that most of the spats are gone maybe we
have one or two in a year. I truly I believe it is bases on
communication. I want my boys to argue with me this is how they learn
to debate and too have their own voice. If they can hold their own
with you, they can hold their own with others. If they know that they
have a strong un-abusive way to express them selves the fist will be
left behind. The key is to stay calm. If you lose control of yourself
you will be losing the effect. Then again this is what worked for me.
And people always told me that I don't think like the normal person.
Re member we have our children for only a short time. We are not
given things in our life that we can't handle.

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/15/2006 5:31:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

"let's try to solve problems by discussing rather than hitting"
or "can you think of another way to get what you want without
hitting". <<<<<<
Personally, I think those are excellent things to say and are more in line
with what you are trying to achieve than "stop hitting" or "hitting is wrong".
I think it lets them know that there is an alternative and you are willing
to help them reach it.


>>>>Do your boys ever want you to punish the other when they've been
hurt? <<<<<<

No, but my boys have never been punished. I would think that in a household
where punishments have taken place it would take time to unwind that tape.
I would explain that in thinking about it you can see that punishments do not
help them in meeting their needs. That you can see that all the things
going on are just reactions to a feeling or problem and you want more than
anything to help in any way you can. Punishments may put an end to the immediate
fighting or arguing but don't move toward problem solving and mutual solutions.

Pam G




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Beth Mouser

To Pam and everyone who has helped me struggle with this issue, I do
appreciate your insights. All of the discussion on this, is helping
me to think clearer about it all.

I remember now quite a few years ago reading about extinction to
lessen undesired behaviors. Basically, parents don't give any
attention to the child when he/she does an inappropriate behavior.
They give lots of attention for desired behavior. So when the boys
are able to talk it out and work a conflict out without violence, I
should comment on it and give attention for that. However, I
struggle with not giving any attention when in a fight, because I
usually need to intervene to stop the violence! I also wonder if
they would learn how to resolve conflicts if I am not guiding them
and telling them to use their words, etc. I may give it a trial of
just trying to stay out of it and if older hurts younger sib, I give
small amount of attention to victim and not say anything to older
one. I don't want younger sib provoking older sib subtlety to do
unwanted behaviors to get him rewards or positive attention. I think
I will try using extinction and not give any attention to older sib
when he is in this mode and let you all know how it goes~I definitely
am going to try to not use punishment, but will be hard as I had
never heard of not using punishment ever as a parent until I joined
this list.

Thanks to all
Beth (mother with oldest son on the autistic spectrum and younger bro)

-- In [email protected], Genant2@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 10/15/2006 5:31:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> [email protected] writes:
>
> "let's try to solve problems by discussing rather than hitting"
> or "can you think of another way to get what you want without
> hitting". <<<<<<
> Personally, I think those are excellent things to say and are more
in line
> with what you are trying to achieve than "stop hitting" or "hitting
is wrong".
> I think it lets them know that there is an alternative and you
are willing
> to help them reach it.
>
>
> >>>>Do your boys ever want you to punish the other when they've
been
> hurt? <<<<<<
>
> No, but my boys have never been punished. I would think that in a
household
> where punishments have taken place it would take time to unwind
that tape.
> I would explain that in thinking about it you can see that
punishments do not
> help them in meeting their needs. That you can see that all the
things
> going on are just reactions to a feeling or problem and you want
more than
> anything to help in any way you can. Punishments may put an end
to the immediate
> fighting or arguing but don't move toward problem solving and
mutual solutions.
>
> Pam G
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: mouser4@... remember now quite a few years ago
reading about extinction to
lessen undesired behaviors. Basically, parents don't give any
attention to the child when he/she does an inappropriate behavior.
They give lots of attention for desired behavior. So when the boys
are able to talk it out and work a conflict out without violence, I
should comment on it and give attention for that. However, I
struggle with not giving any attention when in a fight, because I
usually need to intervene to stop the violence! I also wonder if
they would learn how to resolve conflicts if I am not guiding them


and telling them to use their words, etc. I may give it a trial of
just trying to stay out of it and if older hurts younger sib, I give
small amount of attention to victim and not say anything to older
one. I don't want younger sib provoking older sib subtlety to do
unwanted behaviors to get him rewards or positive attention. I think
I will try using extinction and not give any attention to older sib
when he is in this mode and let you all know how it goes~I definitely
am going to try to not use punishment, but will be hard as I had
never heard of not using punishment ever as a parent until I joined
this list.

-=-=-=-=-

It sounds as if you're planning to do a psychology experiment.

Rather than that, can you just *BE* there and stop the escalation
BEFORE it even starts? BE there!

~Kelly
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
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across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

Beth Mouser

Kelly,

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like a psychology experiment. I was
sort of thinking out loud and wondering about not giving so much
negative attention to older sib when he does something wrong and
focus more on when he gets something right. It is hard to get away
from labels and I have read so many books on dealing with special
needs. He has been diagnosed Aspergers, Tourette's, PDD-NOS, ADHD;
it makes my head spin. Basically, he has an autistic trait of
handflapping while jumping up and down and making loud animal
noises. The doctors don't really know what box he fits in. He does
the handflapping alot and this particular behavior is discussed
extensively in Sensory Integration Disorder books as well. However,
when he's not doing this behavior, he is articulate, normal eye
contact and mannerisms. His peers don't realize anything until they
spot him in another room handflapping and jumping in a corner. He
has gotten better control of this behavior around his peers as he's
gotten older. But he doesn't try to control it with family members
so he does it alot at home. Anyway, I just wanted to explain a bit
about my son. I also try to forget the labels and figure out how
best to make him happy and not stressed (he gets stressed very
easily). I am doing some biomedical interventions and it is time-
consuming. I try to be there for my boys, but I can't always be
there 24/7. The only way is if I made them follow me up and down
different levels of the house. My bedroom is upstairs and the
basement has exercise equipment and I try to do a short work-out
because it helps me mentally. They don't want to exercise and they
don't ever want to take a walk. They usually just want to sit in the
living room and watch TV and there are times when I need to be on a
different level of the house. The computer is upstairs in the office
as well.

But I want you to know I do appreciate your advice and I have learned
much from you. I was wondering if I could ask you something on a
different topic. My older son has chosen to take several classes at
the Jr. High this year. I think the main reason was because he loves
the Ned Declassified tv show about junior high and he wanted to give
it a try. Now he is telling me that he hates the computer class he
is taking. He says it is boring. I have seen the hand-outs and I
wholeheartedly agree. He also says he can't seem to listen to the
teacher. He told me this morning, "I think it's my Asperger's mom,
because I have this block and I can't follow what he is saying". He
struggles alot with attention and much of his energy is just focusing
on not flapping and sitting still in the desk. There is an
Asperger's book called "Pretending to be Normal", and that is the
story of Mark's life. He wants to be "normal" and fit in and be
popular and even have a girlfriend. Anyway, I digress again, sorry.
I told him that he can choose to quit the class, but the school has
told me that he will receive an F. He is enjoying the PE class
there. Is it a big deal that he gets an F? He asked me what it
means to get an F. I think he will probably continue taking various
classes at the school, but am not sure how good it will be to be
dropping some of them and getting Fs. I was wondering what your
thoughts were. At this point, he says he wants to go to college and
I wonder if some Fs would affect his being able to go to the school
he wanted.

Thanks again, Beth

-- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mouser4@... remember now quite a few years ago
> reading about extinction to
> lessen undesired behaviors. Basically, parents don't give any
> attention to the child when he/she does an inappropriate behavior.
> They give lots of attention for desired behavior. So when the boys
> are able to talk it out and work a conflict out without violence, I
> should comment on it and give attention for that. However, I
> struggle with not giving any attention when in a fight, because I
> usually need to intervene to stop the violence! I also wonder if
> they would learn how to resolve conflicts if I am not guiding them
>
>
> and telling them to use their words, etc. I may give it a trial of
> just trying to stay out of it and if older hurts younger sib, I give
> small amount of attention to victim and not say anything to older
> one. I don't want younger sib provoking older sib subtlety to do
> unwanted behaviors to get him rewards or positive attention. I
think
> I will try using extinction and not give any attention to older sib
> when he is in this mode and let you all know how it goes~I
definitely
> am going to try to not use punishment, but will be hard as I had
> never heard of not using punishment ever as a parent until I joined
> this list.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> It sounds as if you're planning to do a psychology experiment.
>
> Rather than that, can you just *BE* there and stop the escalation
> BEFORE it even starts? BE there!
>
> ~Kelly
>
______________________________________________________________________
__
> Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
> security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
> across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
>

Alice Roddy

Beth wrote:

�Now I try to talk to them about how it's not okay to hurt
people and that if they behave this way as adults, they will be punished or in
jail. I don't want my older son

thinking he can get away with hurting his little brother whenever he is
annoyed. He acts like a bully at times. I have been poring over books trying to
find answers, but haven't found a whole lot. Sibling Rivalry says to give
attention to the victim and ignore the

aggressor. It also says to make a comment like "hit a pillow when you�re
angry not your brother". I do try to be there to intervene, but now that
my older son realizes he is not going to be punished, he is blatantly pushing,
hitting, and kicking younger brother even when I am standing right there.�





My heart goes out to you Beth. This is such a difficult
position, and so common. It really tests our commitment to attentive, respective
guidance.





Perhaps the best resolution would be to really understand
what�s going on in your older son. I doubt that he �knows� himself in the sense
of being able to put it in words. Some very attentive listening to him when his
younger brother isn�t around, seeking to understand, without evaluation or
suggestion, might draw him out. Having a really good listener who accepts us
unconditionally and who we trust, can allow us to greatly clarify our thinking.






Since you are a reader, I recommend a couple of books I�ve
found very helpful:


�How to Talk So Kids will Listen & Listen So Kids Will
Talk� by Adel Faber & Elaine Mazlish.


�Kids Are Worth It� by Barbara Coloroso. Also, her �The
Bully, the Bullied, and the Bystander: From preschool to high school�how parents
and teachers can help break the cycle of violence�





These suggestions are offered in humility as I could be
missing the mark.





Alice
Roddy



Breastfeeding is the biological norm for infants. It is a relationship that provides food, connection, protection from illness to the baby and stress reducing hormones to the mother.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]