Ren Allen

"I've noticed a lot of "my way or the highway" attitudes among
unschoolers, actually."

Sure. Someone can be unschooling and still instituting rules,
punishments etc... too.

I think unschooling will blossom much better in an atmosphere of trust
and respect though. For me, trust means that my way isn't necessarily
the best choice for others.

Ren, who just cooked a whole, organic chicken for the carnivores in
the home but detests meat :)
learninginfreedom.com

Solé

Am 18.09.2006 um 01:55 schrieb Ren Allen:

> I think unschooling will blossom much better in an atmosphere of trust
> and respect though. For me, trust means that my way isn't necessarily
> the best choice for others.

Yeah but that's exactly the question. Are unschoolers saying that
they can ALWAYS trust their children to make the best choice, even if
it means burning their skin, or imflaming the wound that was already
healed, even happening again a second time although by then it should
have learned, or being scared of whatever they saw in a movie at the
age of 4 for the rest of their lives? For me "isn't necessarily the
best choice for others" sounds like "... but sometimes, it is, and
THEN we are allowed/should enforce our will (to protect the child ?)"

I'm just unsure when to draw the line between trusting and
protecting, and even for the protecting part I am not sure in which
way a gentle parent would do it. I am sure you pull off your child
from the street if she runs out there and cars are coming and so on,
these very obvious and instant dangers I have of course no doubt that
you just do it. But scary movies and porn (mom, I want to have a TV
in my room... (?)) or a stupid plaster of which you might even think,
well it will probably not inflame and then it does! And then the
second plaster it's the same story... and for the sun cream... ok,
you find good ideas on how to deal with it in the future (x-box,
midnight, long armed thingies), but what do you do that very first
day it happens? Do you go home, let them whining because there just
isn't any solution? Or what if none of the solutions are agreed upon
by them, I can see this happen especially with children who are used
to coercive methods and suddently become unschooled.

Greetings
Johanna

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 18, 2006, at 3:52 AM, Sol� wrote:

> Are unschoolers saying that
> they can ALWAYS trust their children to make the best choice

I think a better way to say it is unschoolers trust their children.
They trust that when a child says something is bothering him or that
he doesn't want to do something or does want to do something that
it's important to the child.

If my husband came home and said he was unhappy at work and was
thinking of taking some time off I wouldn't say "No you're not," or
"That''s stilly," or "That's tough, you have to go to work."

And yet conventional parenting has parents saying similar things to
children's expressions of what's bothering them all the time :-/

So it isn't that we trust them to make the "right' decision. It's
that we trust that they're trying to get their very real needs met.
We trust that they *do* care about being safe and free from pain but
that sometimes something gets in the way and we need to treat it
seriously. And sometimes they need to put up with discomfort (like
being grumpy after staying up all night) in order to experience
something. So unschoolers think outside the box, trying to find
solutions other than "do whatever you want" and "you have to."

> So one example was her son who
> is 3, they were at the beach and he didn't want to neither use sun
> blocking cream nor use a hat, and absolutely refused it no matter
> what they explained (which they kindly did). Then they said they had
> to go home � they went into the car, there he promised to use the
> hat.

What she created was a power struggle. The only choice she gave him
was to do what she wanted in the way she wanted it. There had to be a
winner and a loser and she was determined she'd be the winner.
(Against a 3 yo :-/)

If we become their partners then there are no power struggles. If we
give up "the one right solution" and see ourselves as their partners,
there's no reason for there to be winners and losers.

> even if
> it means burning their skin or imflaming the wound that was already
> healed

It also helps to look at what are real things to worry about an what
are fears to indulge "just in case."

The medical community has us so frightened of the sun that it seems
like one case of sunburn and the child is doomed to skin cancer. But
it's no more true than skipping brushing teeth.

It's long term, life time habits that increase the risk of skin
cancer (barring exceptionally fair skin and a history of skin cancer.)

So it's helpful to step back when that need to pressure comes and ask
"Who's going to die if I let this happen?" It's better to give
information to help a child make decisions -- and if we've been
treating them with respect they trust that our information *is*
intended to help and not code for "do it my way or you'll be sorry".

> I said that unschoolers don't expect their children to even want to
> watch these kind of movies

Actually some kids do. And some kids are fine with more than their
age would suggest.

But other kids are curious and want to test their limits. That's a
good thing! We should always be checking and testing our limits
because we're always growing and changing. So unschoolers would
*help* the child watch a scary movie. We'd get it on DVD so we could
pause and talk, or skip over parts the child wanted to skip, stop it
and watch it later (or never), look at and discuss Making Of
documentaries that are on the DVD to see how effects were created,
watch it during the morning. All sorts of ideas between "whatever'
and "no."!

The point is to empower the child. We *don't* say "Go, do whatever
you want and find out the bad consequences that I'm trying to tell
you about in order to stop you from doing that foolishness." We
essentially say "Let's find a way to do this." Explore and try it out.

> she brought up a
> hitchcock movie she saw when she was 6 (the birds or soemthing) and
> how she was afraid of birds for her whole childhood and had
> nightmares and so on)

Was she unschooled? Did she express her fears as she was watching and
did her parents take those fears seriously? Did she feel empowered to
say "No, thanks."?

Conventional parenting *is* a lot of "No" and "Whatever you want, I'm
busy." Not entirely but it characterizes a lot of it. Kids don't feel
that their parents are their partners in their exploration.

> Well, she said that NOW at 7 they wouldn't want to watch those things
> but in a few years... she said just like an adult would still be
> curious even if their husband/wife would tell them kindly not to
> watch something because X, they would probably still want to watch
> it, accepting the consequences which a child couldn't forsee.

There isn't a reason for a child to "accept the consequences" if the
parent sees their relationship with the child as a being their
partner in their explorations. I have warned my daughter about moving
skeletons in movies (her fear). I have found (on http://
www.screenit.com) detailed descriptions of when scary scenes are
coming up so I can warn her if she wants to see a movie. If she wants
to watch it, I help her. If she wants to watch it several years from
now, I help her.

Your friend is projecting the reactions of a conventionally parenting
child onto an unschooling child. She is seeing the only way of
raising children is to forbid them from doing things that will harm
them and can't see how respectful parenting will achieve that. But
the goal of respectful parenting isn't just a different way to
getting the child to do what the parent wants, or stepping back and
letting the child learn on his own. It's a partnership. It's helping
the child.

My husband would *not* say "Don't watch that movie," and then expect
me to trust his word and not watch it. He'd tell me "I don't think
you'd like it because of such and such," and would trust that I trust
what he's saying is true and helpful. He'd give me information. He'd
see the purpose as helping me find things I enjoy and avoid things I
wouldn't enjoy. Just as I do with him. *In addition* to information,
with a child, I'd help them explore something they might have
problems with. I'd *trust* that they were discovering new things
about themselves by exploring.

That doesn't mean they always "learn" what we want them to. A
momentary pain of pulling off a plaster needs taken seriously and not
dismissed. Letting the child "find out for himself" isn't respectful
when he's making choices to avoid pain! Finding *other* ways to
remove the plaster would be respectful.

> An
> adult could handle the consequences (fear, nightmares) better, but
> children couldn't and she said there have been research where they
> showed children agressive movies and then someone would hit the
> child, and those children who watched agressive movies reacted way
> more agressive than the others who hadn't.

The studies really don't mean much.

Were the children choosing the movies they wanted to watch when they
wanted to watch them?

Most kids *do* imitate what they've seen. Does that mean they toss
out the values of their family, turn their backs on being treated
kindly and with respect, and adopt violent values from watching a
movie? Not with unschooling families.

> So her point was, it is
> proven to be damaging if they watch such things.

Sounds plausible in theory but it doesn't play out long term in real
unschooling families where children's needs and wants are being
treated with respect.

> I said that I would be watching with her if she wanted to
> watch something "dangerous", she said that was quite time consuming

Kids *are* time consuming! They aren't something to take out and play
with when it's convenient for us and set aside when more important
things come along.


> and if would I sit next to her each time at each hour in the day
> whenever she wants to watch something

You wouldn't *need* to be there every hour. Goodness! ;-)

Some kids are really sensitive and they know it and their moms know
it. Some are even bothered by Disney. They wouldn't be parking
themselves in front of the TV with scary movies on!

My daughter has always had free rein of the TV. If something bothers
her she changes the channel. She feels she's more powerful than the
TV. If she *wants* to watch something she fears might bother her,
she'd ask for help because she trusts me to help her explore what
interests her.

> would I be advising her each
> time if she should be watching X or Y?

We trust that they can learn. We trust that they're intelligent. We
don't trust that they'll get it right all the time. They'll make
mistakes and that's okay because that's how humans learn.

I do trust my daughter to try out a show and decide if she'd like to
continue or not. I do trust that she can see the difference pretty
quickly between a cartoon for adolescents and a porno slasher film!
There's no reason to tell her what to watch! TV shows are pretty much
the same from week to week as far as level of violence and sex. It's
really movies that they may need some advice on. It's hard to tell
the level of intensity in a movie just from previews and the package.
That's where reviews and websites are helping so we can help them
gather information to make more informed decisions. And then *help*
them through anything that might be difficult.

Joyce

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Solé

WOW :-) I won't quote anything, for I'd be quoting everything you said.

Joyce, thank you so much for taking your time to answer this. So
much! It was really important to me (not my friend and not to
convince her). This helped me a LOT to understand unschooling more. I
did and do *feel* it's right (for us) but I sometimes I don't get how
it's applied. I made a big step.


Thanks to you and this list!

Johanna

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/18/2006 6:34:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

Or what if none of the solutions are agreed upon
by them,<<<<<

Oh forgot this part, really wanted to comment on this. It isn't just the
parent coming up with ideas, it is anyone there, including children, partners
etc. It isn't like I am the only one trying to come up with something my
children will agree to. My children sometimes have the most creative ideas.
Even throw out silly ones to lighten the mood if it needs it, and get everyone
in a creative mode.

I and a couple of my friends own a consensual living yahoo list. You are
more than welcome to come and listen, ask questions there if you like.
_http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consensual-living/_
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consensual-living/)
:-)
Pam G




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