Ren Allen

"I don't disagree with this but I think we all follow our own
interests at some point. We all decide, about *something*, when,
what and how much we need to know. "

I don't believe that is what makes a person an unschooler or not. I
think there are traditionally schooled people that totally get it and
when they leave school they trust their own interests and dive right
in.....unschooling mindset for sure.

I don't agree that EVERYONE at some point is an unschooler just
because they learn something on their own. That really waters down the
whole meaning for me, to the point that it's a useless discussion.

If everyone and anyone is an unschooler the instant they learn a thing
on their own, then we don't need email lists to help people understand
this thing, we don't need conferences and nobody really needs to leave
school. I don't believe that on any level. I think unschooling is
HUGE shift in thinking for most people and it's a lot deeper than
simply learning something naturally. FAR deeper.

I don't think telling new folks that everyone is an unschooler at some
point in their lives, simply by learning a new thing naturally, will
help anyone understand this lifestyle.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

landvchapman

I was never saying that everyone is or does what most of the people
on this list see unschooling to be. I was only saying that even if
people don't *get* unschooling, or even if they have never heard the
word unschooling, that at some point in their lives they will learn
something in a natural way. I'll apologize if something I said was
taken in the wrong light. It certainly wasn't my intention to
misinform someone about the entire unschooling lifestyle.

> "I don't disagree with this but I think we all follow our own
> interests at some point. We all decide, about *something*, when,
> what and how much we need to know. "
>
> I don't believe that is what makes a person an unschooler or not. I
> think there are traditionally schooled people that totally get it
and
> when they leave school they trust their own interests and dive
right
> in.....unschooling mindset for sure.

> I don't agree that EVERYONE at some point is an unschooler just
> because they learn something on their own. That really waters down
the
> whole meaning for me, to the point that it's a useless discussion.
>
> If everyone and anyone is an unschooler the instant they learn a
thing
> on their own, then we don't need email lists to help people
understand
> this thing, we don't need conferences and nobody really needs to
leave
> school. I don't believe that on any level. I think unschooling is
> HUGE shift in thinking for most people and it's a lot deeper than
> simply learning something naturally. FAR deeper.
> I don't think telling new folks that everyone is an unschooler at
some
> point in their lives, simply by learning a new thing naturally,
will
> help anyone understand this lifestyle.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

"Have them see, in their own lives, those
times when they learned something that wasn't in school, learned
something like building a deck or planting a garden or about fishing,
by maybe reading about it, talking to people in the field,
experimenting etc. "

Yes, that's a good point. I have a "test" I give people that involves
them examining all their interests and methods of making income and
how many of those were learned in school. Most people find their
school experiences fairly useless in general.

BUT, helping people see how they learned something naturally is
different than saying everyone is an unschooler at some point. I guess
"everyone learns something naturally at some time in their lives" is
more accurate. I've learned everything useful for my life on my own.
But I was never an unschooler as a kid.....because nobody else gave me
that luxury and I totally bought into the system and believed
something was wrong with ME, rather than the system itself.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Danielle Pate

That's a good "test", Ren.
All throughout my school years, I was underthe impression that this was the
stuff I needed "in the real world".
Come to find out once I was on my own that none of it applied.




Danielle Souris Pate
"I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I�
I took the one less traveled by"
Robert Frost.





>From: "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Unschooling and school
>Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 15:23:40 -0000
>
>"Have them see, in their own lives, those
>times when they learned something that wasn't in school, learned
>something like building a deck or planting a garden or about fishing,
>by maybe reading about it, talking to people in the field,
>experimenting etc. "
>
>Yes, that's a good point. I have a "test" I give people that involves
>them examining all their interests and methods of making income and
>how many of those were learned in school. Most people find their
>school experiences fairly useless in general.
>
>BUT, helping people see how they learned something naturally is
>different than saying everyone is an unschooler at some point. I guess
>"everyone learns something naturally at some time in their lives" is
>more accurate. I've learned everything useful for my life on my own.
>But I was never an unschooler as a kid.....because nobody else gave me
>that luxury and I totally bought into the system and believed
>something was wrong with ME, rather than the system itself.
>
>Ren
>learninginfreedom.com
>
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
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Michelle Leifur Reid

On 9/17/06, Danielle Pate <DaniellePate@...> wrote:
> That's a good "test", Ren.
> All throughout my school years, I was underthe impression that this was the
> stuff I needed "in the real world".

I often hear that phrase "in the real world." It really irks me. Am
I not living in "the real world?" Perhaps I'm living in a fantasy
world? An imaginary world? A surreal world? :-D I'm already part
of "the real world" I just choose to do things differently from the
majority of the American population and live a life that is full of
joy and happiness. Isn't that real? Isn't school part of the real
world? Isn't childhood part of the real world? Isn't homelife part of
the real world? Isn't laying flat on your back on the beach watching
clouds pass over part of the real world? We *are* in the "real world"
all the time. It's just which aspects of society we choose to accept
or reject that is important for *us* I needn't conform to be part of
that "real world." My world is very real as it is.

--
Michelle
Michelle Leifur Reid
YOUR Pampered Chef Consultant
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Check out my homeschool cooking classes!

Danielle Pate

I was only referring to what I was taught in school. When I was in school,
*they* used the term "in the real world" a lot to try and convince us what
we were learning was useful.
I also meant "The real world" to mean life outside of school, ie once I
graduated. It had nothing to do at all with you. So please, don't be so
bothered. I can't believe such minor stuff offends unschoolers!



Danielle Souris Pate
"I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I�
I took the one less traveled by"
Robert Frost.




>From: "Michelle Leifur Reid" <pamperedmichelle@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Unschooling and school
>Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 12:21:53 -0500
>
>On 9/17/06, Danielle Pate <DaniellePate@...> wrote:
> > That's a good "test", Ren.
> > All throughout my school years, I was underthe impression that this was
>the
> > stuff I needed "in the real world".
>
>I often hear that phrase "in the real world." It really irks me. Am
>I not living in "the real world?" Perhaps I'm living in a fantasy
>world? An imaginary world? A surreal world? :-D I'm already part
>of "the real world" I just choose to do things differently from the
>majority of the American population and live a life that is full of
>joy and happiness. Isn't that real? Isn't school part of the real
>world? Isn't childhood part of the real world? Isn't homelife part of
>the real world? Isn't laying flat on your back on the beach watching
>clouds pass over part of the real world? We *are* in the "real world"
>all the time. It's just which aspects of society we choose to accept
>or reject that is important for *us* I needn't conform to be part of
>that "real world." My world is very real as it is.
>
>--
>Michelle
>Michelle Leifur Reid
>YOUR Pampered Chef Consultant
>850-474-0817
>http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
>Check out my homeschool cooking classes!

_________________________________________________________________
Check the weather nationwide with MSN Search: Try it now!
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Ren Allen

"When I was in school, *they* used the term "in the real world" a lot
to try and convince us what we were learning was useful."

I think Michelle understood that's exactly what you meant...she was
venting about the idea of "real world" as used in school, same as you.

Reminds me of that song "I wanna run through the halls of my high
school, I wanna shout at the top of my lungs. I just found out there's
no such thing as the "real world", just a lie that we gotta rise
above......"

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

PS (for everyone): It really helps to not assume that someone is
offended or angry (which seems to be happening a lot here lately) when
an idea gets questioned or discussed. This is a discussion list and
anything and everything you post is up for discussion and questioning.

Danielle Pate

That being said, if I may offer a little bit of advice.
When people come on here who are new to the idea of unschooling, and really
want to do it with their kids, it would probably really help them a lot if
the unschooling "experts" were more helpful instead of harsh. I realize
that you say, "Anything you say here can be discussed". That's why I am
expressing my opinion. A lot of people who really mean well do get jumped
down the throats a lot.
I don't think that's what unschooling's about. I think if you are going to
claim to be about all this freedom, then you should not be so uptight about
innocent and minor word choices. People don't mean malicious intent the way
they are sometimes taken by unschoolers online...
Danielle


Danielle Souris Pate
"I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I�
I took the one less traveled by"
Robert Frost.




>From: "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Unschooling and school
>Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 23:58:51 -0000
>
>"When I was in school, *they* used the term "in the real world" a lot
>to try and convince us what we were learning was useful."
>
>I think Michelle understood that's exactly what you meant...she was
>venting about the idea of "real world" as used in school, same as you.
>
>Reminds me of that song "I wanna run through the halls of my high
>school, I wanna shout at the top of my lungs. I just found out there's
>no such thing as the "real world", just a lie that we gotta rise
>above......"
>
>Ren
>learninginfreedom.com
>
>PS (for everyone): It really helps to not assume that someone is
>offended or angry (which seems to be happening a lot here lately) when
>an idea gets questioned or discussed. This is a discussion list and
>anything and everything you post is up for discussion and questioning.
>
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Check the weather nationwide with MSN Search: Try it now!
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=weather&FORM=WLMTAG

[email protected]

>>I was only referring to what I was taught in school. When I was in school, *they* used the term "in the real world" a lot to try and convince us what we were learning was useful.
I also meant "The real world" to mean life outside of school, ie once I graduated. It had nothing to do at all with you. So please, don't be so bothered. >>

I don't think she was bothered by *you* saying that. I think she was kind of agreeing with your point and taking it a step further. It was my impression that she was bothered by the very thing you were already commenting on, the fact that teachers and parents talked about preparing us all for the real world as if we weren't already in it.

>>I can't believe such minor stuff offends unschoolers!>>

I think you may be reading offense where none was taken. Just because we like to talk about the how, why, where, with whom, language of, or process of learning does not mean we're upset or offended. Discussion is good!

--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Danielle Pate" <DaniellePate@...>
> I was only referring to what I was taught in school. When I was in school,
> *they* used the term "in the real world" a lot to try and convince us what
> we were learning was useful.
> I also meant "The real world" to mean life outside of school, ie once I
> graduated. It had nothing to do at all with you. So please, don't be so
> bothered. I can't believe such minor stuff offends unschoolers!
>
>
>
> Danielle Souris Pate
> "I shall be telling this with a sigh
> Somewhere ages and ages hence:
> Two roads diverged in a wood, and I�
> I took the one less traveled by"
> Robert Frost.
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Michelle Leifur Reid" <pamperedmichelle@...>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Unschooling and school
> >Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 12:21:53 -0500
> >
> >On 9/17/06, Danielle Pate <DaniellePate@...> wrote:
> > > That's a good "test", Ren.
> > > All throughout my school years, I was underthe impression that this was
> >the
> > > stuff I needed "in the real world".
> >
> >I often hear that phrase "in the real world." It really irks me. Am
> >I not living in "the real world?" Perhaps I'm living in a fantasy
> >world? An imaginary world? A surreal world? :-D I'm already part
> >of "the real world" I just choose to do things differently from the
> >majority of the American population and live a life that is full of
> >joy and happiness. Isn't that real? Isn't school part of the real
> >world? Isn't childhood part of the real world? Isn't homelife part of
> >the real world? Isn't laying flat on your back on the beach watching
> >clouds pass over part of the real world? We *are* in the "real world"
> >all the time. It's just which aspects of society we choose to accept
> >or reject that is important for *us* I needn't conform to be part of
> >that "real world." My world is very real as it is.
> >
> >--
> >Michelle
> >Michelle Leifur Reid
> >YOUR Pampered Chef Consultant
> >850-474-0817
> >http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
> >Check out my homeschool cooking classes!
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Check the weather nationwide with MSN Search: Try it now!
> http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=weather&FORM=WLMTAG
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

>>When people come on here who are new to the idea of unschooling, and really want to do it with their kids, it would probably really help them a lot if the unschooling "experts" were more helpful instead of harsh.>>

There are no experts here.

Some of us have been doing this a long time , with amazing results, and feel we have a good grasp on how unschooling works and how to explain it to others.

Some of us started unschooling only recently but have seen such dramatic changes in our home lives and children that we become passionate about sharing what we've seen and done and learned.

Some of us are questioning and searching for the right path for our children.

Some of us have experienced the very scenarios others are asking about and feel confident in the answers we are giving.

Some of us are feeling anything but confident as we take an entirely new path with our families.

Some of us feel damaged by the forced schooling we experienced and want to share that perspective with others.

Some of us are just very confident by nature and able to discuss unschooling and parenting questions without hesitation.

*All* of us are talking here.

Questions get asked, scenarios are presented, comments are made, ideas are discussed and yes, word choice is debated. It's a healthy examination of ideas and commonly held beliefs. We're taking the phrases and tapes that run in our head subconsciously and bringing them to the surface for a fresh look.

>>People don't mean malicious intent the way they are sometimes taken by unschoolers online...>>

I have not seen this. Maybe you could share an example?
--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh

Ren Allen

"People don't mean malicious intent the way
they are sometimes taken by unschoolers online..."

Nobody took anything to be malicious, nor was anyone offended. You're
deciding that's how people feel without even asking.

And now you're posting about the posts, which is a meta-discussion and
not in line with our guidelines. Please refrain from telling others
how to post and simply post what you think is helpful.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

"There are no experts here.

Some of us have been doing this a long time , with amazing results,
and feel we have a good grasp on how unschooling works and how to
explain it to others."

Thanks for making that point.
I don't like the idea of "experts", nor would I hope ANYONE would
defer their own experience and learning to some other person's advice.
I DO hope people can use other experienced unschoolers advice as a
jumping off point to finding their own truth.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Joyce Fetteroll

> When people come on here who are new to the idea of unschooling,
> and really
> want to do it with their kids, it would probably really help them a
> lot if
> the unschooling "experts" were more helpful instead of harsh.

And I think it will help people understand why the list is as it is
if they *don't* see it as a resource of people waiting to help
newbies and *do* see it as a place where people love to discuss
unschooling and the philosophy of unschooling and gentle, mindful
parenting in a way that newbies can understand. And readers get the
benefit -- for free! -- of writers following their interests.

I had an epiphany recently -- though it's really a Blinding Flash of
the Obvious as I heard it referred to once ;-) -- a list *is* its
writers. A list *isn't* a product or service created to meet the
needs of its membership. A list is a forum for people to put their
ideas into words -- just as you did! :-) Without writers, without
people with a desire to put thoughts into words, a list is no more
than a collection of email addresses in a membership list. People --
writers :-) -- answer questions they do in the way they do because
they have a burning passion to put an idea into words.

So when readers say "Post differently" they're saying "Stop writing
the way you love to write and write the way I want to read."

No one's paying me or anyone here to crank out a product to any
particular specifications! We write because we want to write. We
answer the questions that interest us and that fill some need in us.
Only the owners get to decide what kind of voices they want to support.

If someone can't find voices here that are saying what they're
seeking in a way that's meaningful to them, they do themselves an
enormous favor to shop around to other lists and other resources to
find something that does work for them. Don't waste your time on
something that isn't meeting your needs.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michelle Leifur Reid

On 9/17/06, Danielle Pate <DaniellePate@...> wrote:
> That being said, if I may offer a little bit of advice.
> When people come on here who are new to the idea of unschooling, and really
> want to do it with their kids, it would probably really help them a lot if
> the unschooling "experts" were more helpful instead of harsh.

When I first started approaching radical unschooling (rather than just
curriculum unschooling which we had been doing for some time) and
joined this list at the invitation of Ren 3 or 4 years ago, I was at
first defensive and offended by what I saw as harsh answers. Many
people on this list answer questions with questions and sometimes, *at
first*, those questions seem irrelevant to the question asked. When I
first came to this list I *knew* that if I let my kids have no
responsibilities or limitations that they would turn out to be "lazy
fat slobs." I was horrified for some time at some of the responses I
got. I was actually told that my children didn't trust me! The
nerve!! :-) But those words I had read kept coming back to me as I
started to loosen the reigns and start trusting my children. Now I
seem to be one of those "crazy unschooling moms" whose words seem to
offend when there wasn't any offense to begin with.

I have found that the responses to questions and problems aren't
supposed to give you an answer, but to make you think and question for
yourself. It's meant to make you ponder what will work for your
family and hopefully you will see from post after post affirming
positive, mindful, gentle parenting that these things might work in
your family as well. No one is condemning anyone on this list.
However, we will define what is and isn't unschooling or how something
is in contradiction with unschooling.

--
Michelle
Michelle Leifur Reid
YOUR Pampered Chef Consultant
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Check out my homeschool cooking classes!