Will it ever be enough?
Ren Allen
"Kids don't learn in isolation. Let them SEE and HEAR you work out this
issue."
I agree!! It's so weird to think about hiding away to come to some
agreement first. I think if the parents are yelling and being angry,
maybe wait and don't discuss it then. But I can remember many times
when dh would say something really limiting and I'd just look at him
and say "What is the big deal if he wants more ice cream?"
Usual answer would be "well, he's had a lot of ice cream and he hasn't
eaten anything healthy" to which I would reply "So what you're really
worried about is that he gets healthy food? Why don't you fix him
something yummy and healthy then?"
That usually ended conversation, as dh is not much of a cook!:)
My kids know I will stand up for them. I'm their ally and they trust
me. I had to be their ally with their Dad too....now he is just as
likely to catch me saying something stupid as I am him. It's cool.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
issue."
I agree!! It's so weird to think about hiding away to come to some
agreement first. I think if the parents are yelling and being angry,
maybe wait and don't discuss it then. But I can remember many times
when dh would say something really limiting and I'd just look at him
and say "What is the big deal if he wants more ice cream?"
Usual answer would be "well, he's had a lot of ice cream and he hasn't
eaten anything healthy" to which I would reply "So what you're really
worried about is that he gets healthy food? Why don't you fix him
something yummy and healthy then?"
That usually ended conversation, as dh is not much of a cook!:)
My kids know I will stand up for them. I'm their ally and they trust
me. I had to be their ally with their Dad too....now he is just as
likely to catch me saying something stupid as I am him. It's cool.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Tina
>>My kids know I will stand up for them. I'm their ally and they trustme. I had to be their ally with their Dad too....now he is just as
likely to catch me saying something stupid as I am him. It's cool.>>
That sounds awesome, and I can't wait to get there! The kids and I
are at a wonderful spot. We are just waiting for Dad to catch up.
Tina
Ren Allen
"We're talking about stepping on each others parental
toes in front of the children which is an even bigger "no, no" for
those still struggling with traditional parenting issues. "
Sometimes, once the other parent realizes that treating the children
disrespectfully is not OK, that is the catalyst for real change. If
it's going to cause so much dischord that the couple can't work it
out, then maybe unschooling isn't going to work in that family. That's
just how it is sometimes.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
toes in front of the children which is an even bigger "no, no" for
those still struggling with traditional parenting issues. "
Sometimes, once the other parent realizes that treating the children
disrespectfully is not OK, that is the catalyst for real change. If
it's going to cause so much dischord that the couple can't work it
out, then maybe unschooling isn't going to work in that family. That's
just how it is sometimes.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
"We are just waiting for Dad to catch up."
Sometimes they'll surpass you!! Markus has been much more patient with
Jalen this week than I have been. sigh.
He took Sierra and Jalen out yesterday and when they stopped by my
work to say hello, Jalen was bouncing off the walls. Markus was calm
as a cucumber, saying "we've had a great day, he's been happy like
this all day."
I'm looking at my child and thinking he might need some valium, Markus
is beaming and telling me what a great day they're having! When they
were at Taco Bell and Jalen yelled "DAMN Nachos" super loud, Markus
just thought it was funny. Got a few funny looks from other customers
of course.
He still gets a bit frustrated with all the mess (but then, there can
be a lot of it from this crew) but as far as schooling/gentle
parenting etc... he's THERE. Time and BEING the change you would like
to see really does work the best. There was a time I put my foot down
and said "you will NOT treat the kids like that" though.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Sometimes they'll surpass you!! Markus has been much more patient with
Jalen this week than I have been. sigh.
He took Sierra and Jalen out yesterday and when they stopped by my
work to say hello, Jalen was bouncing off the walls. Markus was calm
as a cucumber, saying "we've had a great day, he's been happy like
this all day."
I'm looking at my child and thinking he might need some valium, Markus
is beaming and telling me what a great day they're having! When they
were at Taco Bell and Jalen yelled "DAMN Nachos" super loud, Markus
just thought it was funny. Got a few funny looks from other customers
of course.
He still gets a bit frustrated with all the mess (but then, there can
be a lot of it from this crew) but as far as schooling/gentle
parenting etc... he's THERE. Time and BEING the change you would like
to see really does work the best. There was a time I put my foot down
and said "you will NOT treat the kids like that" though.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
"What I meant was, if you all already knew that, if "starting late",
it may not work, like ... there's a 50% change that it doesn't work
if you don't start from birth... then it would be strange for me to
start doing this, you know? "
There will never be a statistic like that, it's too esoteric a subject.
What does "work" mean anyway? If by "it works" you mean kids that are
obedient (albeit sneaky) and that grow up to have jobs, then
traditional parenting will be just fine.
If by "works" you mean kids that are in touch with who-they-are right
now and growing in their own way, then unschooling can offer that.
There are NO guarantees in this life. Unschooling, traditional
parenting, gentle parenting, not ONE idea/philsophy or "method" can
promise any certain result. If you want guarantees, then show me who
can promise that. You can continue using punishment as your model, it
does have a certain short-term "it works" effect.
I think your friend is way off base. I think you're asking all the
wrong questions. You are looking at this as a method to choose in
order to assure the best result. While we all want what is best for
our children (and I believe only unschooling can offer the absolute
BEST) the real question is "what kind of relationship do I want with
my child?"
Some other good questions to ask yourself is "what do I really want
FOR my children?", "what kind of atmosphere do I want in our home?"
and the most serious question "If I (or my child) was going to be dead
in a month, how would I use my time today?"
I think unschooling is all about living the good life. I only need ask
myself what makes a life WELL-LIVED and I know that we are on the
right path.
Many, many of us started later in the game and have beautiful results
to speak for themselves. YES, it's much better to do this from birth,
but not all of us had the information or spiritual evolution to
embrace unschooling early on. When you know better, you do better.
Children WILL blossom in their own time and way, there is nothing you
can do to change that. But you can either pick away at the blossom and
damage it as it tries to unfold, OR you can surround it with a
wonderful environment in which it has everything it needs, and trust
it to unfold in it's own time. Which blossom looks better in the end?
Radical unschooling is such a great environment in which to blossom.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
it may not work, like ... there's a 50% change that it doesn't work
if you don't start from birth... then it would be strange for me to
start doing this, you know? "
There will never be a statistic like that, it's too esoteric a subject.
What does "work" mean anyway? If by "it works" you mean kids that are
obedient (albeit sneaky) and that grow up to have jobs, then
traditional parenting will be just fine.
If by "works" you mean kids that are in touch with who-they-are right
now and growing in their own way, then unschooling can offer that.
There are NO guarantees in this life. Unschooling, traditional
parenting, gentle parenting, not ONE idea/philsophy or "method" can
promise any certain result. If you want guarantees, then show me who
can promise that. You can continue using punishment as your model, it
does have a certain short-term "it works" effect.
I think your friend is way off base. I think you're asking all the
wrong questions. You are looking at this as a method to choose in
order to assure the best result. While we all want what is best for
our children (and I believe only unschooling can offer the absolute
BEST) the real question is "what kind of relationship do I want with
my child?"
Some other good questions to ask yourself is "what do I really want
FOR my children?", "what kind of atmosphere do I want in our home?"
and the most serious question "If I (or my child) was going to be dead
in a month, how would I use my time today?"
I think unschooling is all about living the good life. I only need ask
myself what makes a life WELL-LIVED and I know that we are on the
right path.
Many, many of us started later in the game and have beautiful results
to speak for themselves. YES, it's much better to do this from birth,
but not all of us had the information or spiritual evolution to
embrace unschooling early on. When you know better, you do better.
Children WILL blossom in their own time and way, there is nothing you
can do to change that. But you can either pick away at the blossom and
damage it as it tries to unfold, OR you can surround it with a
wonderful environment in which it has everything it needs, and trust
it to unfold in it's own time. Which blossom looks better in the end?
Radical unschooling is such a great environment in which to blossom.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
"Maybe they still whine because they are just unhappy?"
Good point.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Good point.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
"I'm just tossing out ideas here but I can't imagine a respected
child, whose emotional needs are met, whining for no reason when the
only thing she got from it was negative attention."
Some humans are more persistent than others...but Sole was talking
about a child that wasn't respected, nor her wishes honored. I think
I'd whine if nobody listened to my desires too!!
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
child, whose emotional needs are met, whining for no reason when the
only thing she got from it was negative attention."
Some humans are more persistent than others...but Sole was talking
about a child that wasn't respected, nor her wishes honored. I think
I'd whine if nobody listened to my desires too!!
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Danielle Conger
Ren Allen wrote:
I feel like whining when things just don't go "my way." I whined in my
head when the dryer didn't turn on the first time I tried and I needed
to dig out the damn pliers from behind the piles of laundry to turn it
back on again because the knob is broken. I felt like whining and
cursing when the damn dog got out in the pasture to eat the chicken
scraps and I scraped my finger on a screw point sticking out above the
feeder as I was busy commanding the dog to come and not paying attention
to what I was doing.
I could keep whining to you all right now--*g*--but that's not really my
point. Okay, well, maybe just a little.
My point is that people often whine, get angry and complain in the face
of frustration--when things are beyond our control or don't go according
to expectations or are more difficult than we wanted them to be.
If a child lives in a world where things are often beyond his/her
control, don't go according to expectations and are more difficult than
s/he wanted them to be, then there's likely to be whining whether it
*gets* them anywhere or not. It's a lament rather than a simple
acceptance of fate and can be an indication of a strong spirit rather
than a broken one.
I think whining, too, can be an indication of low personal reserves. I
know I'm more likely to look at the world in a way conducive to whining
and lamenting when my personal reserves are low--sick, tired, hungry, etc.
If we can build up emotional and physical reserves for ourselves and our
children, there's likely to be much less whining and anger. If we can
address the need behind the behavior, the behavior is more likely to
disappear.
Emily (9), Julia (7), Sam (6)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Connections: ezine of unschooling and mindful parenting
http://connections.organiclearning.org
> "Maybe they still whine because they are just unhappy?"I'm sick and feeling particularly whiny today. ;)
>
> Good point.
>
I feel like whining when things just don't go "my way." I whined in my
head when the dryer didn't turn on the first time I tried and I needed
to dig out the damn pliers from behind the piles of laundry to turn it
back on again because the knob is broken. I felt like whining and
cursing when the damn dog got out in the pasture to eat the chicken
scraps and I scraped my finger on a screw point sticking out above the
feeder as I was busy commanding the dog to come and not paying attention
to what I was doing.
I could keep whining to you all right now--*g*--but that's not really my
point. Okay, well, maybe just a little.
My point is that people often whine, get angry and complain in the face
of frustration--when things are beyond our control or don't go according
to expectations or are more difficult than we wanted them to be.
If a child lives in a world where things are often beyond his/her
control, don't go according to expectations and are more difficult than
s/he wanted them to be, then there's likely to be whining whether it
*gets* them anywhere or not. It's a lament rather than a simple
acceptance of fate and can be an indication of a strong spirit rather
than a broken one.
I think whining, too, can be an indication of low personal reserves. I
know I'm more likely to look at the world in a way conducive to whining
and lamenting when my personal reserves are low--sick, tired, hungry, etc.
If we can build up emotional and physical reserves for ourselves and our
children, there's likely to be much less whining and anger. If we can
address the need behind the behavior, the behavior is more likely to
disappear.
> --~~Danielle
>
Emily (9), Julia (7), Sam (6)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Connections: ezine of unschooling and mindful parenting
http://connections.organiclearning.org
Christine Jones
Yep. I know my children whine as an expression of frustration (well. . those could be tantrums ;-) ), hunger, fatigue, etc. For instance, when we've been at the water park since 11 (when they open) and they close at 5 and we need to leave, all three of them will whine and complain. They are 1. tired. 2. they don't want the fun to end and 3. maybe hungry (too busy playing to get enough of the snacks we brought). I think knowing it is an expression of an emotion shouldn't illicit negative reactions and negative emotions from *us*. Reflecting their feelings, agreeing ("Yes, baby, I don't want to leave either! This was really fun!") and being there helps. But, it's not personal, and they aren't doing it to be annoying (even though it can be). But, the whining isn't going to change the fact that we have to leave. And sometimes it just needs to be that way.
---------------------------------
Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela S.
<<"I'm just tossing out ideas here but I can't imagine a respected
child, whose emotional needs are met, whining for no reason when the
only thing she got from it was negative attention."
Some humans are more persistent than others...but Sole was talking
about a child that wasn't respected, nor her wishes honored. I think
I'd whine if nobody listened to my desires too!!>>
My point was that the child probably isn't feeling respected nor like she
has her emotional needs met. She is probably whining because it gets her
attention. Negative attention is better than not enough attention. Even
when some parents feel they are giving their children enough attention it
still may not be enough for that child.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
child, whose emotional needs are met, whining for no reason when the
only thing she got from it was negative attention."
Some humans are more persistent than others...but Sole was talking
about a child that wasn't respected, nor her wishes honored. I think
I'd whine if nobody listened to my desires too!!>>
My point was that the child probably isn't feeling respected nor like she
has her emotional needs met. She is probably whining because it gets her
attention. Negative attention is better than not enough attention. Even
when some parents feel they are giving their children enough attention it
still may not be enough for that child.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Solé
Yeah, thank you. It's exactly what I was saying. My daughter was
probably whining because she was unhappy (because I didn't respect
her). The only thing I wanted to point out is that I do NOT think
that children whine because they "have learned they can get something
with whining". Even those who should have learned that they don't get
anything, because they never ever get anything with whining, do whine
as well. So that doesn't seem to be the reason. The reason is because
they are unhappy, they feel disrespected, or maybe also they feel
they don't get enough attention or whatever other reasons. (Or maybe
there are some who do think they can get something with whining.)
I wasn't promoting not respecting kids. In contrary.
Johanna
Am 30.08.2006 um 15:25 schrieb Ren Allen:
probably whining because she was unhappy (because I didn't respect
her). The only thing I wanted to point out is that I do NOT think
that children whine because they "have learned they can get something
with whining". Even those who should have learned that they don't get
anything, because they never ever get anything with whining, do whine
as well. So that doesn't seem to be the reason. The reason is because
they are unhappy, they feel disrespected, or maybe also they feel
they don't get enough attention or whatever other reasons. (Or maybe
there are some who do think they can get something with whining.)
I wasn't promoting not respecting kids. In contrary.
Johanna
Am 30.08.2006 um 15:25 schrieb Ren Allen:
> Some humans are more persistent than others...but Sole was talking
> about a child that wasn't respected, nor her wishes honored. I think
> I'd whine if nobody listened to my desires too!!
Melissa
Thank you Danielle, this is exactly what we have in our house...I'm
the whiny one ;-) because my reserves are low. Unschooling has helped
build my dam wall (intentionally leaving out the 'm' because I'm
referring to the body of water retaining wall lol!) a little higher.
Now I'm working on it more. It takes parents even more time to
deschool than kids, and we're (read *I* am) still struggling. Sigh.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (9), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (5), Dan
(3), and Avari Rose
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
the whiny one ;-) because my reserves are low. Unschooling has helped
build my dam wall (intentionally leaving out the 'm' because I'm
referring to the body of water retaining wall lol!) a little higher.
Now I'm working on it more. It takes parents even more time to
deschool than kids, and we're (read *I* am) still struggling. Sigh.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (9), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (5), Dan
(3), and Avari Rose
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
On Aug 30, 2006, at 8:48 AM, Danielle Conger wrote:
> I think whining, too, can be an indication of low personal reserves. I
> know I'm more likely to look at the world in a way conducive to
> whining
> and lamenting when my personal reserves are low--sick, tired,
> hungry, etc.
>
> If we can build up emotional and physical reserves for ourselves
> and our
> children, there's likely to be much less whining and anger.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]