Christe Bruderlin

Hi Mary,

Thanks for hearing what I have to say. I hear what you have to say as well, and mirror those concerns.

I have seen that happen as well (deprived kids with hoarding behavior), which is why I am concerned. But I have also seen it go the opposite direction. Maybe it is in the way the parents present things (as Kelly alluded to). For example, we have a friend who is very healthfoodsy. Her daughter (9) has no limits on what she orders at restaurants or what she eats at parties. However, what has been in the house has been very limited and consisted mainly of things almost everyone can agree are great for the body (veggies, fruits, food in its natural state, etc.). When she goes out, she orders pretty much the same stuff she's always had at home (and joyfully!!!). I did see her order a sandwich that came on a croissant with cheese, but she picked them both off and ate the insides. I'm not going to comment on whether her mother's particular food choices (or hers) are "good" or "bad," but it is one example (and I've seen a handful of others) where what the child eats out and
about closely mimics what is provided in the home. Oh, I have two friends (both grown men) who were raised vegetarian for religious reasons. One was Muslim and is now agnostic (though loving and respectful of his family). One was 7th Day Adventist and is now loosely Christian. Both are still vegetarian and say that though they've tried it, they just never developed a taste for meat. I have seen this time and time again...where adults seem to still gravitate toward the foods they had in the home. I've seen the opposite, too, but the point is that perhaps the food isn't the source of the rebellion in some of the cases people have mentioned?

I have a huge family and we have a variety of friends with kids of various ages in all walks of life. Most have unlimited supplies of standard readily-available standard kid fair (those Rice Krispie treats, Oreos, Uncrustables, soda, candy or whathaveyou along with fruits, veggies, etc.) and she isn't very interested so far in foods she isn't used to...even after having a bite (we are usually in other people's homes 2-3x a week). Now, I will say at parties with Pinatas or goodie bags full of candy, she gets as excited as everyone else about the candy (as do I...I tell her to run for the candy when the pinata breaks, etc. and truly have fun with her during these events contrary to how my posts might sound LOL). She opens it all and tastes lots of it and usually eats some if there is chocolate (my genes!), but she doesn't seem to like most of it (if perhaps only because it tastes foreign to her?) and gives or throws a lot away.

"I also want to warn you that feeling good because your kids make
good to you choices sets you up to feel bad when they don't."

I appreciate this, although I don't feel bad at all when she makes choices that might not necessarily feel like the best choices. I don't know anybody who always makes the best choices (and I don't think I'd want to :). It isn't about perfectionism for me. I don't think life would be any fun if we never had what we wanted for pure pleasure -- I sometimes just like "being bad!" he he he. It is more about the percentage for me. For me, if the majority (80-90%) of our family's choices are natural foods (unprocessed, blah blah blah), I would worry not an ounce if my child had a full-fat pastrami on white with fries followed by a pile of cake and ice-cream washed down with a Coke or a martini. :) At parties, I help her open the candy and joke with her about giving it all to me, etc. :)

"I am aware of what my world has to offer and I help myself and children be safe and joyful in this world of strange chemicals."

That is truly wonderful and it is exactly what I'm feel I am doing too (and hoping to continue). I truly want to make life joyous and fun and to not cause my children to feel deprived. Isn't there a way to do this without stocking the house with non-food foods? Is it really best to introduce and readily supply Pop Tarts when they are perfectly happy eating natural foods for breakfast? Are those of you with teens willing to also supply the endless cigarettes if, after mindfully parenting, their choice is to smoke? I ask this because if I did loosen up more in the home, where would I draw the line.

Is what I'm proposing so different or is it just that we all draw the lines in different places and that, in reality, all of you might limit certain things, but just have different viewpoints on the damaging effects of different foods?

And, are there RU people out there who have raised children without buying them everything for consumption they desire who have older kids? Are they totally eating the opposite?

Thanks!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kiersten Pasciak

--- In [email protected], Christe Bruderlin
<techwritercsbn@...> wrote:
That is truly wonderful and it is exactly what I'm feel I am doing too
(and
hoping to continue). I truly want to make life joyous and fun and to
not cause
my children to feel deprived. Isn't there a way to do this without
stocking the
house with non-food foods? Is it really best to introduce and readily
supply
Pop Tarts when they are perfectly happy eating natural foods for
breakfast

--------------
I don't believe anyone here has ever mentioned "stocking" the house
with unasked for things. We have been discussing how people handle it
when kids ASK for something. As they get older, they will sometimes
ask for things outside your comfort zone. Perhaps even a Pop-Tart :)

The point others have tried to make is that you cannot control their
choices when you are not present. If you make statements about how
dangerous or unhealthy things are and they don't personally SEE that,
they may not trust what you say. When it comes to important decisions
later on, you may not even be consulted.

I think one of the most important part of unschooling is helping our
children learn how and where to look for information. In the case of
cigarettes, it is not difficult to find scientific studies on the
effects of smoking, pictures of what it does to internal organs or
your mouth and teeth, or to know someone in real life who is suffering
from a smoking related illness. Or to talk to smokers about what they
like about it/ what they don't, have they ever tried to quit, etc.

It is just as easy to help them learn about sources for nutrition
information. With nutrition, however, it is more complex that smoking.
Just because you believe, for example, that low-fat or vegetarian is
best, that doesn't make it best for EVERYONE.

I know because I have been trying many different ways of eating over
the years to find what works for me. Vegetarian does not work. Even
with careful eating, I was weak and did not feel well. Soy does not
work, in fact it makes me very ill as it affects my thyroid (this is
not true for everyone). Whole grains with gluten (which I love) were
making it difficult to function properly as I wasn't absorbing enough
B vitamins and wound up supplementing after going to several doctors
to find out what was wrong. At this point I am sold on "Nourishing
Traditions" for me, which focuses on eating foods high in enzymes (not
processed) and beneficial bacteria, eating enough fats to feel well,
and eating fermented foods. I am also adding coconut oil and cod liver
oil to my diet because these things are helping me have energy and
feel well. They may make someone else feel terrible. I would not want
my kids to have no say or worse to stop listening to their bodies
saying "this is not working for ME!".

Kiersten
mom to Jacob 4 1/2 and Emma 3

Kiersten

Manisha Kher

--- Christe Bruderlin <techwritercsbn@...>
wrote:

>She opens it all and tastes lots
> of it and usually eats some if there is chocolate
> (my genes!), but she doesn't seem to like most of it
> (if perhaps only because it tastes foreign to her?)
> and gives or throws a lot away.

If she doesn't even like most of it, why are you so
concerned? It sounds like she's eating as much as she
wants.

> I truly want to make life joyous and fun and to not
> cause my children to feel deprived. Isn't there a
> way to do this without stocking the house with
> non-food foods? Is it really best to introduce and
> readily supply Pop Tarts when they are perfectly
> happy eating natural foods for breakfast?
I have never introduced non-nutritious food on my own.
For me the question has always been about what do I do
when they ask for something that is not particularly
nutritious. Then I offer other equivalent choices or
buy it. I explain why I think it's not nutritious -
just the facts mostly sugar, no protein, too many
additives etc. I also try to balance it by offering
some nutritious choices. For example, if my kids want
coco puffs cereal we buy it. But my daughter needs a
lot of fiber. So I explain to her about coco puffs not
having enough fiber and that she should eat some
high-fiber food later in the day.

In general, I try to accentuate the positive. So I
keep providing healthy choices without taking away the
unhealthy ones.

A lot of people have talked about sneakyness and
hoarding behaviour. There's also another problem I
want to avoid and that is loss of credibility/trust.
If I tell my kids that say coke is bad and they see
other people drinking with no bad effects, they're
soon going to start discounting what I say. I don't
want that to happen.

Manisha




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Deb

--- In [email protected], "Kiersten Pasciak"
<kjl8@...> wrote:
>
>In the case of
> cigarettes, it is not difficult to find scientific studies on the
> effects of smoking, pictures of what it does to internal organs or
> your mouth and teeth, or to know someone in real life who is
>suffering
> from a smoking related illness. Or to talk to smokers about what
>they
> like about it/ what they don't, have they ever tried to quit, etc.
LOL the most likely thing to keep DS from smoking is the price of the
things. He's quite frugal about most stuff and I don't think he'd go
for having to shell out all that money for something that's gone so
fast (and smells awful - MIL and others in the family smoke and he
won't even hug Grandma if she's recently had a cigarette because of
the smell and we don't try to force him).

--Deb

techwritercsbn

--- In [email protected], Manisha Kher <m_kher@...>
wrote:
>
>
> If she doesn't even like most of it, why are you so
> concerned? It sounds like she's eating as much as she
> wants.

Oh yes, she eats as much as she wants. I'm just preparing for the
future, as many have said her willingness and enjoyment of all these
foods might change.


> I have never introduced non-nutritious food on my own.
> For me the question has always been about what do I do
> when they ask for something that is not particularly
> nutritious. Then I offer other equivalent choices or
> buy it. I explain why I think it's not nutritious -
> just the facts mostly sugar, no protein, too many
> additives etc. I also try to balance it by offering
> some nutritious choices. For example, if my kids want
> coco puffs cereal we buy it. But my daughter needs a
> lot of fiber. So I explain to her about coco puffs not
> having enough fiber and that she should eat some
> high-fiber food later in the day.
>
> In general, I try to accentuate the positive. So I
> keep providing healthy choices without taking away the
> unhealthy ones.
>

Thank you!!! This is exactly what I need to hear.

> A lot of people have talked about sneakyness and
> hoarding behaviour. There's also another problem I
> want to avoid and that is loss of credibility/trust.
> If I tell my kids that say coke is bad and they see
> other people drinking with no bad effects, they're
> soon going to start discounting what I say. I don't
> want that to happen.

But in the context of a solid, trusting, loving relationship, might
they believe us even if they can't see the effects? I mean, I
couldn't see the effects lifestyle had on many healthy-looking
appearing humans that I've seen on autopsy, but its there. When the
data is good over years and multiple populations, I might see it, but
my child might not understand the research yet. I'd hope we have
enough trust that she wouldn't disbelieve me because she sees people
who are fine eating everything under the sun.

But yes, that is my main concern....that they will not feel safe in
the context of our relationship to be able to be honest. Totally
agree.

I want to find a way to do both. Perhaps I'm dreaming the impossible
dream!!! :)

techwritercsbn

--- In [email protected], "Kiersten Pasciak"
<kjl8@...> wrote:
>
> I don't believe anyone here has ever mentioned "stocking" the house
> with unasked for things. We have been discussing how people handle
it
> when kids ASK for something. As they get older, they will sometimes
> ask for things outside your comfort zone. Perhaps even a Pop-Tart :)

God, I loved Pop Tarts (frosted cherry)! Have to have one once in a
while! I should review the archives. It may have been another list,
but I thought I had seen many people saying we always buy lots and
lots of XYZ or keep a bowl of M&Ms out, etc.

> If you make statements about how
> dangerous or unhealthy things are and they don't personally SEE
that,
> they may not trust what you say. When it comes to important
decisions
> later on, you may not even be consulted.

I guess I'm lucky then, because I could *show* them. But I'm trying
to avoid the fear tactics :)

> I think one of the most important part of unschooling is helping
our
> children learn how and where to look for information. In the case
of
> cigarettes, it is not difficult to find scientific studies on the
> effects of smoking, pictures of what it does to internal organs or
> your mouth and teeth, or to know someone in real life who is
suffering
> from a smoking related illness. Or to talk to smokers about what
they
> like about it/ what they don't, have they ever tried to quit, etc.

Yes, and I guess I can do that with excessive fats and coronary
artery disease, diabetics and sugar, etc., but that seems like
scaring them into not smoking, not eating sugar, not eating fats,
etc., doesn't it?

> It is just as easy to help them learn about sources for nutrition
> information. With nutrition, however, it is more complex that
smoking.
> Just because you believe, for example, that low-fat or vegetarian
is
> best, that doesn't make it best for EVERYONE.

True, and we all have different priorities as well. Still,
regardless what any of us believe or want to believe, excepting for
specific medical conditions, the same nutrient needs apply to almost
every human. We need real food -- and not just 75%. There is a
wonderful variety of foods from which to get those nutrients. But I
will say, to get enough nutrients, there isn't a lot of room for
lower-nutrient foods (maybe a few hundred calories a day max),
because the sheer volume of produce alone is so filling :)

I've also gone through multiple ways of eating (though variations on
attempting to get more healthful). My favorite was "starchatarian"
which is where I thought I was vegetarian, but really only had a
salad or two a day, some beans, and maybe one cooked vege and a piece
of fruit. The rest was processed, refined, fatty, salty, you name
it. Not healthy at all and that was when I labeled
myself "vegetarian". Most of my calories didn't come from nutrient-
rich stuff at the end of the day. Now I don't really have a label
(whew!).

We all have to do what is best for us with the information we have.
I'm working to give the kids the info, but in the meantime........??

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jul 13, 2006, at 4:56 PM, techwritercsbn wrote:

> But in the context of a solid, trusting, loving relationship, might
> they believe us even if they can't see the effects?

Yes, of course. Especially when they're little and they think we know
everything :-) But every "trust me" that turns out not to be right
whittles away at their trust in us.

> but
> my child might not understand the research yet.

That's why it's more honest to present information in terms of what
we believe and let go of the fears that they'll make different choices.

Maybe it will make it clearer if I make the distinction between what
I choose to buy for the family (since that's my role) and what my
daughter can buy/choose/eat for herself. For instance if she picks up
margarine in the store instead of butter I can tell her I prefer
butter because of the hydrogenated oils in margarine. If she wants to
know more I can tell her what I've read. (If she wanted to try
margarine, I'd probably suggest trying the packets at a restaurant
just because we don't use spreads much so a whole stick would be
around forever. But if she really wanted to try now, I'd just buy it
because the price of one stick ($1 maybe?) isn't much of a sacrifice.)

What I pass on provides her with information in helping her make her
own decisions. I don't want to make her feel bad about choosing
differently. I don't want to frighten her into making the decisions I
do. Because it really isn't necessary. With food she can experiment.
There isn't anything in the grocery store that is going to cause
lasting harm if she tries it, even if she tries a lot of it because
the foundation of her diet isn't heavily laden with "unpronounceables".

I should point out that the above isn't about "the right unschooling
diet". ;-) It's about parents living principles, providing an
environment we think is important, while giving the child freedom to
choose for themselves. It applies whether the parents' principles and
environment are vegan or organic or Christian or green or close to
nature or anti-consumer or whatever.

With cigarettes and drugs she also has the information from
conversations that have popped up over the years. And I know I can't
control what she will ultimately do but I think it's highly unlikely
that she'll do either for a variety of off-putting reasons, not the
least of which is the expense. I think most kids start smoking 1) to
fit in with their friends 2) to choose differently than their parents
would choose for them. When life is all about "choosing" what your
parents want you to choose -- which isn't really a choice! -- kids
will often choose something they don't really want when they're out
of their parents' sight just to be able to choose. It's only slightly
more of a choice to choose the forbidden, but when choice is limited
it probably feels like freedom!

If my daughter started smoking, no, I wouldn't buy them for her.

> I'd hope we have
> enough trust that she wouldn't disbelieve me because she sees people
> who are fine eating everything under the sun.

The key, of course, is trust! And really the whole conversation isn't
really about food but about the principles of maintaining our
children's trust in us and giving them a safe environment to
experiment and choose in.

> 1) If eating unhealthfully does not cause immediate and apparent
> negative effects, children won't trust parents that tell them about
> the dangers of certain dietary choices because they can't see/feel
> said effects

No. I did say that or something similar but to a child, that's what
it will feel like if a parent is afraid the child will make choices
other than what the parents wants them to. If the parent's attitude
is "You need to make this choice because other choices will harm
you," when kids go out in the world and see people who aren't being
harmed, they're going to know it's a lie.

> 2) Humans crave, and thus eat, only what the body needs and will
> achieve a healthy dietary balance if raised in a family that imposes
> no dietary limits

No, that's obviously not true! I don't need Dove chocolate! ;-)
(Except for whatever the chemical is in chocolate that women often
crave right before their periods ;-) But I believe, when given the
freedom to choose, our bodies will be drawn to the nutrition they're
*in need of*. If we're shy on calcium, we'll feel like eating
something with calcium without consciously thinking "I need calcium."

Maybe most accurate to say is that children will naturally be drawn
to the basic nutrition they need from what they're provided and what
they're used to. Will that naturally be optimal? I don't know. And
that's the decision each will have to decide for themselves. Maybe
someone -- and I'm not saying you! just speaking in generalities --
will decide that their highest priority is making sure no unnatural
substances will pass the lips of their children. But since here, on
this list, we believe relationships are most important and there
isn't a way to exert that much control without compromising the
relationship in someway, that idea won't be given equal weight on the
list!

> 3) Smoking leads to disease, but the link between nutrition and
> disease is not as strong

That I do believe. I think there's strong evidence that some choices
are better than others. (Though genetics plays a factor so there
isn't one right choice for all.) I make some "better safe than sorry"
decisions about the diet I provide for my family. I won't say "Trans-
fatty acids are poison and I can't let you eat them." But I will say
"I prefer to avoid them in the decisions I make for the family and
not take the chance." (Though I do like Oreos!)

> Also, why does a comparison with cigarettes make people upset? Is it
> not the same philosophical point i.e. limiting choice in a child that
> you would not limit in an adult?

Not upset. I don't see cigarettes and food as a valid comparison and
it just muddles the thinking.

Yes, we all draw the line somewhere on what we will expose and
introduce to our children. The point isn't to give them everything as
though all were equal, but to provide access *to what interests them*
and a safe environment to explore in. I also need to run things
through my daughter's life that I think she might be interested in.
Cigarettes just don't fall into "interested" or "think she might be
interested" categories. She isn't interested in porn or talky adult
movies or cock fights or hunting ....

We could speculate what if she wanted to try something I think is
dangerous but real examples work better because, as reasonable as the
question "What if she wants to smoke?" sounds, the situation doesn't
comes out of no where and made up scenarios can be what if'd to the
point where they don't match anyone's life. (While still *sounding*
plausible.)

Parents have helped their kids try out things the parents are nervous
about like ATVs and horror movies. It's a lot more useful to discuss
things that kids have actually asked to try rather than speculate
about "What if?"

> we give our kids the information and then let them choose,
> fully support the choice even if it isn't one we'd make if the danger
> isn't apparent right then lest they not trust us, etc.

That *is* what we're talking about. :-)

That's not the attitude of most people who come to unschooling boards
and are certain they are right about nutrition (and plastic and TV
and ....) and how they will make sure their kids have only access to
what is right and good.

> A kid isn't likely to drop dead
> from smoking 10 packs of cigarettes or eating 10 gallons of ice
> cream. They are both likely to look and feel equally healthy.
>
> Is there no one who sees this as a valid parallel?

I think the big difference is there's so much that's unattractive
about smoking that few kids are going to ask mom to buy them
cigarettes so they can try because they saw Sorcha's parents smoking!
But they *will* likely ask to have some food they've tried elsewhere.
Or a violent video game. Or to see a scary movie. How we handle those
real scenarios is much more helpful than speculating about kids
trying cigarettes.

> And there are no studies that show that kids without limits are
> healthier than their limited counterparts either

The discussion shouldn't be about what we believe is healthy but how
we handle our children's explorations beyond our values about whether
fears of what children will do if they aren't controlled are true or
not. My point in point out how kids aren't eating nothing but junk
food (or doing nothing but watch TV, or doing nothing by IMing their
friends) isn't that they'll naturally be as healthy as a child raised
vegan (as just as an example since maybe studies will show vegans
aren't that healthy ;-) but that they will gravitate towards
nutritious food. As nutritious as you would serve? Probably not. Is
it necessary? We can't really know.

To the best of my ability I provide what I believe to be a healthful
environment and I pass on why I make the choices I do.

> I've never seen a kid shun all nutritious
> food -- though my nephew (always unlimited) will not eat anything
> resembling a vegetable.

And maybe that's just his body chemistry! About the only vegetable my
father in law would eat was peas and I think that's true of 2 of his
sons. (My husband will eat most vegetables but his favorite is peas.)
Is it nature or nurture? I suspect some of each.

My daughter ate a large variety of foods until she was 4 and then her
taste changed and it narrowed down to a few until 11ish and then it
expanded again and she'll try just about anything again. I don't know
why. It's not uncommon for that to happen to kids. But they *seem* to
get the nutrition they need.

If science could determine the *optimal* chemistry for each
individual, would she have passed? I have no idea. And I think it's
helpful not to worry about it! I think we're trained too much to
worry that there's too much that we can't know unless we're an expert
and our intuition and natural instincts too much looked down upon.
That's not an easy conclusion for me to come to being of an
engineering/scientific bent! ;-) I want hard facts and data and there
to be a Right Answer. But life just feels more pleasant when we skim
the surface to glean some information and just live life and trust.
My gut feeling is that as long as we eat relatively naturally (hard
to define that simply) that we're going to increase the odds a great
deal. But any diet changes above and beyond that are only going to
increase the odds a bit and only for some people.

> I agree here, except that most schooled kids I know have diets that
> sound exactly like the diets described on this and other unschooling
> boards (some healthy, some not).

And it probably comes down to what mom provides. Kids are more likely
to eat whole foods if that's what they equate with a loving home
*and* they aren't made to feel guilty about choosing or forbidden to
eat non-whole foods.

Maybe to sum it up, there's two ways to increase the chance of kids
liking hot dogs: 1) provide them as part of the regular diet or 2)
forbid them. ;-)

> During a
> mindless urge to munch, I might just grab that which is most
> convenient.

Which is why many parents come to the conclusion their kids prefer
junk food to nutritious food. Often it's because junk food is
convenient!

And that's why people suggest making nutritious food as convenient or
more convenient than snack food. We can keep the chips out of sight
(so kids eat them when they want rather than because they're easy)
and put a platter of veggies, fruits, crackers and dips out where
kids can grab it easily.

> I'm perhaps offending some people (hence the need
> to defend personal household diets?)

No, not at all. We're not defending diets but emphasizing that choice
isn't the path to anarchy and a steady diet of junk food parked in
front of the TV where they watch whatever happens to come on ;-)

> Actually, what you've said goes against the science out there if you
> look at a unprocessed, plant-based diet vs. any other diet.

I've probably said it enough ;-) but it's helpful not to see the
discussion specifically about food, but about eliminating fear of
what will happen if we don't control our kids and make them make the
"choices" we would for them.

Joyce



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]