[email protected]

I've been disturbed at the recent number of posts that have gone
through and have caused turmoil here at U-B.

Although the topics are almost always good fodder for discussion,
often the original poster gets her feelings hurt because *everyone* is
attacking her and her ideas.

I've chatted with Ren and our moderators, Deb L & Rue, about what
changes we can make to soften this up a bit.

We keep new members on moderation mostly to avoid spam. But we also
keep new members on moderation just to make sure things don't go too
haywire with their first few posts. We've been letting posts through on
a regular basis though lately, and things have gotten out of hand
because the posters weren't prepared for the responses they would get.
Then they either decide to leave (which is uncommon)---or more often
simply quit posting. The deal IS that this is a beginners' list. We
actually *want* newbie questions! <G>

Another (maybe bigger?) problem I've seen is that newbies give
"advice" that is counter to unchooling/peaceful-mindful parenting
advice. Then they get angry when we disagree with them. It IS just
their opinion, after all. Unfortunately, it doesn't help others get to
unschooling to hear traditional/conventional parenting advice. Well, it
sometimes *does* in a round-about way, but at the expense of the
original posters' feelings.

Note: no one is being attacked personally: we're just responding to
your *words*---to the discussion of *ideas*.



SO, to help with all this, I'm suggesting:

If you are a newbie on moderation, we will still be moderating your
posts. If you write something that we, as listowners/moderators, feel
will get slammed, we will write you back and suggest that maybe *we*
post your comments under one of *our* names, so that you can express
what you'd like, but not have to be "outed" or feel blasted as an
individual. We might suggest you change some language or delete a
phrase or two to keep from getting others' hackles up. We'll work
*with* you to help increase your understanding.

If you are no longer on moderation, but would like to participate
thusly, we'd be happy to slip you back onto moderation so that you can
post this way. All you'll need to do is to *offlist* ask me or Ren or
Deb or Rue to put you back on moderation. Then, when you feel that
you're "ready" to tackle hot topics on your own, we'll happily take you
off moderation.

I personally hate moderation, but I understand the need for it. I just
never wanted this list to be heavily moderated---or moderated at *all*
except for spammers. (Oh, well...)

We deeply want this to be a place where you feel you *can* ask
questions openly. This will be a little more work for *us*, but maybe
it'll help the newbies to feel "safe" enough to post.

I'll have Ren add this to the list guidelines for newbies.



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities of
what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible. They
go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

Queana

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of kbcdlovejo@...
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 5:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] moderated postings

I've been disturbed at the recent number of posts that have gone
through and have caused turmoil here at U-B.

Although the topics are almost always good fodder for discussion,
often the original poster gets her feelings hurt because *everyone* is
attacking her and her ideas.

I've chatted with Ren and our moderators, Deb L & Rue, about what
changes we can make to soften this up a bit.

*** I'm glad to see that you guys are concerned about this :)


SO, to help with all this, I'm suggesting:

If you are a newbie on moderation, we will still be moderating your
posts. If you write something that we, as listowners/moderators, feel
will get slammed, we will write you back and suggest that maybe *we*
post your comments under one of *our* names, so that you can express
what you'd like, but not have to be "outed" or feel blasted as an
individual. We might suggest you change some language or delete a
phrase or two to keep from getting others' hackles up. We'll work
*with* you to help increase your understanding.

*** Why not moderate those who tend to "slam" newbies and give suggestions
for nicing up their responses? I'm not sure who that would be (haven't been
paying that close of attention) but since this is a newbie list it seems
people should be able to ask what they want (assuming they're not a troll)
and get respectful answers. It seems to me most answers are usually
respectful but there are usually one or two that assume the worst for the
sake of discussion without regard to the feelings of the newbie. Maybe
people could save that kind of discussion for other lists.

It would be easier for you guys as well.

~Q~

Ren Allen

~Why not moderate those who tend to "slam" newbies and give
suggestions for nicing up their responses?~

That was not posted with the intent of beginning a discussion about
how the list is run. I'm not here to tell each person how to post, the
whole point was giving new folks a chance to understand the "culture"
and intent of the list, that's all.

We're not here to change what UB IS. Everyone has a free choice to be
here or not. What a few folks are complaining about, a LOT of people
find helpful. Nobody is forcing anyone to be here or read anything.

I'm not asking new folks to post differently, we're just using the
moderation as a chance to help them learn what the list IS about
before it feels like something personal.

If you feel that advice should be offered a certain way, then offer it
that way and let other voices be what they are. That's why it's so
great to have many different posting styles. Pick and choose what
helps you the most.

We aren't here to coach people on how to post, other than posts that
are against the list guidelines....which brings me to my next point. A
discussion about the discussions is against the guidelines and this
conversation needs to get back to unschooling now.

Thank you.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Deb Lewis

***Why not moderate those who tend to "slam" newbies***

You're suggesting we psychically determine who is slamming newbies.
Seldom do posters say, "Ok, now, I'm slamming you here." What
generally happens is a poster will respond in a clear and honest way out
of a desire to help and a sensitive reader perceives a "tone" and feels
hurt. I'm neither prepared nor qualified to read the minds of posters
to determine who typed with a "tone" or who meant to hurt a newbies
feelings or which newbies are so sensitive they are not able to engage in
a discussion they came to of their own free will.

What I can do is judge from my experience which posts coming through the
queue are likely to get responses that *other* new people expressed
surprise at receiving and send a caution or an "are you sure you want to
post this?" to the newbie.

***and give suggestions
for nicing up their responses? ***

I'm not going to tell writers how to write. I'm not going to assume the
worst about people who give up time with their families to try to help
new people understand unschooling. I promise you if anyone on this list
calls a newbie a stupid bitch or a fatty booger head, one of the owners
or moderators will put that poster on moderation and probably send a side
note explaining why they feel that isn't helpful on an unschooling list.
<g>

If list members think a post requires a certain kind of response, give
that response. Set the tone you believe should exist.

Deb Lewis

marsaili

As a person who has stated in the past that I thought responses were a bit
rough to newbies at times, I am glad to see that you "oldtimers";-) are
seeing that this can be a real issue. I didn't leave this list because I
truly want to learn about unschooling and I read the list and I soak up
everything I read. I had decided to not voice my opinion anymore when I
thought someone was being "beaten down" because people misinterpreted my
concerns and it just seemed to cause more havoc. BUT, in addition to that,
I had also stopped posting myself, in fear of getting blasted as well for my
own issues. I have had SO many questions which I have been afraid to ask
but have tried to look in vain on this list and others and different
websites for the answers---sometimes successfully, sometimes not. But,
thanks to Kelly's email I will try to contribute more to the newbie question
portion of the list---because I sure have MANY of them!

Thanks Kelly and the other mods!

Leslie:-)
________________________________

If you are a newbie on moderation, we will still be moderating your
posts. If you write something that we, as listowners/moderators, feel
will get slammed, we will write you back and suggest that maybe *we*
post your comments under one of *our* names, so that you can express
what you'd like, but not have to be "outed" or feel blasted as an
individual. We might suggest you change some language or delete a
phrase or two to keep from getting others' hackles up. We'll work
*with* you to help increase your understanding.

If you are no longer on moderation, but would like to participate
thusly, we'd be happy to slip you back onto moderation so that you can
post this way. All you'll need to do is to *offlist* ask me or Ren or
Deb or Rue to put you back on moderation. Then, when you feel that
you're "ready" to tackle hot topics on your own, we'll happily take you
off moderation.

I personally hate moderation, but I understand the need for it. I just
never wanted this list to be heavily moderated---or moderated at *all*
except for spammers. (Oh, well...)

We deeply want this to be a place where you feel you *can* ask
questions openly. This will be a little more work for *us*, but maybe
it'll help the newbies to feel "safe" enough to post.

I'll have Ren add this to the list guidelines for newbies.

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org <http://liveandlearnconference.org>

School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities of
what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible. They
go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll
__________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

Deb Lewis

***As a person who has stated in the past that I thought responses were a
bit
rough to newbies at times, I am glad to see that you "oldtimers";-) are
seeing that this can be a real issue. ***

*Everyone* who's been on these kinds of lists knows new people can feel
hurt or confused when they're presented with new and startling
information. No one wants others to feel hurt, we're all sorry to see
it happen when it does.

But if people have those kinds of feeling those are their *personal*
issues, not issues for this list.

We're volunteering to help people learn about unschooling. People come
to us. We're not going door to door, not calling on the phone during
dinner, not sending unsolicited mail to people's homes. People come
here, presumably after deciding they want to find out more about
unschooling.

This is not a counseling center. We provide unschooling information and
ideas. We provide support for people moving toward unschooling. We
provide some peaceful parenting ideas. We provide some silly chatter.


That's it guys. Don't expect this list to be everything you need.

***I had decided to not voice my opinion anymore when I
thought someone was being "beaten down" because people misinterpreted my
concerns and it just seemed to cause more havoc. ***

Asking questions about learning or unschooling or parenting won't get a
person put on moderation on this list but continuing to engage in meta
discussion absolutely will.

If anyone wants a different kind of list, please go make that list now.
More lists mean more choices for new unschoolers. That's a good thing.

*** I have had SO many questions which I have been afraid to ask
but have tried to look in vain on this list and others and different
websites for the answers---sometimes successfully, sometimes not. ***

No one has ever been put on moderation for asking questions about
unschooling or learning. No one has been told questions about
unschooling or learning are not welcome on this list. If you came to
that conclusion you did so in error.

I'm not the most patient moderator here. I'm the most likely to put a
member on moderation and in two years I have done so only twice after
continuous complaints about the list. Not because those members had
questions about learning or unschooling but because they couldn't
contribute in a positive way to this list.

I'm also the most likely to reject pending messages and the list owners
have been very patient with this conversation even though every new
member received the guideline stating meta discussion is not appropriate
for this list.

I don't know how many ways there are to say it. Don't post about this
list. Post about unschooling or learning or parenting.

The next post about this list will be rejected or if that member isn't on
moderation s/he will but put on moderation. I'm happy to discuss this
off list if that would help anyone.

Deb Lewis
co-moderator