seccotine_ch

School is over and we are on vacation. We have two months before us,
now, and in September, if Sylvain doesn't want to go back to school,
well, he won't.

For me, these two months are a bit like a test : let's see what
happens when I'm left alone all day with my three kids - it has
never happened before : I've always worked, at least part-time and
my two elder have spent their week at daycare. I'm on leave since
Circé was born, on November, and I'll go back to University in
October, two days a week.

But until then, I'll be with them all day ... and it's quite
difficult for me. I'm so used to have some time by myself during the
day, and I realise that I need it very much - or at least, that I
don't know yet how to manage without these little moments alone.

So it's the 3rd day of vacation, and I haven't done so well yet. At
times, I simply cannot stand being needed so much ... and I hate
myself for my poor reactions. And of course, I'm quite worried for
the future (though I'm trying not to focus on that, but on the
moment ...)

There is another problem ... how do you do when your energy level is
completely down ? I let them do quite whatever they want, and at
some point, I feel that I should do something, take them with me
somewhere, initiate a game, whatever, but change the energy of the
moment, because they get bored ... and I can't. The hot weather
(though I know it's not an excuse) doesn't help me, because I really
hate that, it really gets on my nerves, I know it, I do my best to
overcome this, but my best isn't enough sometimes ... so, I said it
doesn't help, because I don't want to go out during the afternoon.
So we spend our mornings in our (tiny) garden, then we flow back
inside, close everything and wait for the sun to turn - and at five,
we live again.

Is there any secret trick to find the energy to do things when you
just feel like laying down on the floor ?

I guess that living with kids all day when you're not used to that
rythm is, like anything else, an apprenticeship and that, in theory,
I'll do better next week than this one, but I must say that I'm
suddenly feeling a bit frightened : and if I wasn't able to
unschool ? What if I wasn't "maternal" enough ? I really do love my
kids, and I really like spending time with them and watching them
spending time together and bringing up things, really ... but I've
been such a poor companion these days ...

I hope it is just a phase
Thanks for reading me anyway

Helen, who still reads you and still finds this list very helpful

seccotine_ch

OK. So here I am, trying to do better everyday (baby steps, though).

The cool thing is, when I sit in front of my computer, I always find
food for thought, allowing me to put the events of the day in
perspective :) Sometimes, it is incredibly to the point !!!

Anyway. I have a concern, which I tried to express in my previous
message, with my elementary English that make the exercise of
translating my thoughts such a hard and frustrating exercise ... I
hope that nobody won't be irritated by my insistance

It's about being WITH my children. I have a lot of questions around
that.

As I said, I'm really not used to live like that - I know how to
live separate lives, I'm used to separation in the morning and
reunion in the evening, used to do my own business during the day,
living at my own rhythm ... I know how to put things aside in order
to take care of my children when they are here, how to give them my
full attention when we are together, evenings and week-ends

Though it is really what I want (I hated leaving them every
morning), I don't know how to live together day after day after
day - I'm so lost !

I've always needed to have time by myself - and suddenly I don't
have any, and I miss it very much. Strangely, in the same time, I'm
having doubts : is it really a need by itself, or is it hiding
another one ?

I try to preserve some little times for me during the day, but the
outcome of this attitude is "disastrous", because it doesn't work,
of course, and I'm kind of frustrated all the time (and I guess that
they are, too). I really have a hard time going to them - it's as if
I was trying to escape all the time.

I'm wondering if they finally don't have less time WITH me than
before.

I have also noticed that they get bored and electric when we don't
regularly do organized things together ... The balance between
proposing activities and letting them organize their own time is
difficult to find, particularly when I'm very tired or longing for
solitude. On the other hand, I don't really know what to propose !
They made lots of things at daycare, and my role was to let them
free of their time, so they could rest from all this "collective
organisation" ...

I'm wondering : will it always be like that ? Am I experiencing a
transition time, getting accustomed to a new pattern of life ? Am I
going to learn being with my kids all the time, balancing our needs,
initiating things, sensing when they need a little help from me
through their day and when they need me to leave them alone ?

I'm sorry if I'm redundant with my previous message, sorry of being
so confused and talkative - but I'm actuallly looking for help :)

Helen

Eugenie van Ruitenbeek

Hi Helen,

I have the same kind of feelings and I feel them the strongest in the
morning, after waking up. "Oh mai.... what should I do today with the
kids...??"

I see that this has nothing to do with the kids. It is my perspective of my
life.. I can see that my brains start right away with telling me about all
the things that must be done and when I don't listen to that, I feel scared
and tense.... I feel the struggle and tension in my body which I feel all my
life, when I am lost, out of connection with my heart, my breath...

I feel devastated but there is nothing really wrong.. My brains give me the
wrong information... they act as if there is an emergency but the real thing
is.. all is well... Jesse is at home for almost a year now and I am still
working on this issue. You are not alone..

Warmly,
Eugenie

Alice Sackman

Posted by: "seccotine_ch" seccotine@...
<mailto:seccotine@...?Subject=Re:%20First%20days%20of%20vacation>
seccotine_ch <http://profiles.yahoo.com/seccotine_ch>Tue Jul 4, 2006
5:01 pm
Helen wrote: "There is another problem ... how do you do when your
energy level is
completely down ? I let them do quite whatever they want, and at some
point, I feel that I should do something, take them with me somewhere,
initiate a game, whatever, but change the energy of the moment, because
they get bored ... and I can't. "

***First of all, recognize you are just at the beginning of the long
process of deschooling. Next year at this time, if you keep making
progress, you will just be starting to truly "unschool" - so give
yourself a break and realize it is a process - a long process.

My recommendation to you is to drop all the "shoulds". Every time you
feel like you "should" do something, but you don't really feel like it
(whether because of energy levels or whatever), then don't do it!
Deschooling at this point is about learning to honor your self, your
energy levels. Do what you want to do, not what you feel you should do
or feel that you have to do. If you can't do that for yourself, how
will you ever do it for your children? Unschooling is about trusting
and honoring the desires/rhythyms of ourselves and our children. Keep
reminding yourself you are on summer break - you are taking a break from
everything.

So, if you want to lay around, lay around! If you can't bring yourself
to clean the house or feel resistance every time you think "I should
clean the house" than don't do it. What do you feel like doing? What
do the kids feel like doing? Do those things. You are probably all
exhausted from pushing yourselves when you should have been resting and
now you will need a long break to catch up. Begin unschooling by
honoring that; by ignoring all the "shoulds" that keep echoing around in
your head and do what you feel like doing.

My guess is that you feel like your children are exhausting you because
you are not honoring what you need and what they need. It is exhuasting
to push/control people constantly. You are probably not even aware that
you are doing it - it has become so second nature to you that you are
unaware that it is happening. I fall into this trap too, and my biggest
indication that it is happening again is when my energy levels drop and
I feel like I am dragging everyone along. When this happens, I know I
am "going against the grain" and I need to give myself a time-out. And
I usually need to drop my expectations about what "should" be happening.

Your time with your children should be enjoyable. What are you pushing
yourself to do with them that feels like such a drain? Are you laughing
and having fun together? Are you cuddling in bed and reading to them?
Are you letting them lead the activities or are you organizing
activities and making them do it? Having some time to yourself is fine
but I get the impression from your letter that your time with your
children is not enjoyable, not nourishing and therefore you have to take
breaks or avoid it, if possible. That tells me something is wrong with
how you and your children are interacting. Tell us some more about what
goes on and what specifically it is about your children that bothers you
and that you feel you need to avoid.
-Alice
(only one year into the deschooling process so by no means an expert!)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

seccotine_ch

Thanks Eugenie

I found this morning the word that describes how I feel these days
(though I don't know if the translation is correct) : desynchronized.

Gotta go, dogs are waiting ;)

Helen

--- In [email protected], "Eugenie van Ruitenbeek"
<emmvr@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Helen,
>
> I have the same kind of feelings and I feel them the strongest in
the
> morning, after waking up. "Oh mai.... what should I do today with
the
> kids...??"
>
> I see that this has nothing to do with the kids. It is my
perspective of my
> life.. I can see that my brains start right away with telling me
about all
> the things that must be done and when I don't listen to that, I
feel scared
> and tense.... I feel the struggle and tension in my body which I
feel all my
> life, when I am lost, out of connection with my heart, my breath...
>
> I feel devastated but there is nothing really wrong.. My brains
give me the
> wrong information... they act as if there is an emergency but the
real thing
> is.. all is well... Jesse is at home for almost a year now and I
am still
> working on this issue. You are not alone..
>
> Warmly,
> Eugenie
>

seccotine_ch

Thank you so much for this message, Alice.

You wrote:
>
> Your time with your children should be enjoyable. What are you
pushing
> yourself to do with them that feels like such a drain? Are you
laughing
> and having fun together? Are you cuddling in bed and reading to
them?
> Are you letting them lead the activities or are you organizing
> activities and making them do it? Having some time to yourself is
fine
> but I get the impression from your letter that your time with your
> children is not enjoyable, not nourishing and therefore you have
to take
> breaks or avoid it, if possible. That tells me something is wrong
with
> how you and your children are interacting. Tell us some more
about what
> goes on and what specifically it is about your children that
bothers you
> and that you feel you need to avoid.

Yes, that's what bothers me so much. Usually, I like being with
them, following their games, reading them stories ... But I don't
know why, this week, it's not at all like this. Maybe it's because
I'm not used to spend my whole day with somebody (I'm a rather
solitary person), and it's hard for me to take other habits ...
Maybe it's because I find hard to be on call, like that, all day
long ... Maybe it's the fact of being the only person in charge - I
guess that there must be a little bit of that, because I can feel
the tension go when my husband comes back - even when he does
nothing but reading the paper ...

Anyway, I don't know why, all I'm thinking of is "getting a little
space for me" ... I try to control that, I think : you were so sad
leaving them all the time, and you'll see, before you even know it,
they'll leave home, enjoy while they're here ... They won't always
need you so much and you'll even miss the constant interruptions ...

I have the feeling they would like me to initiate things, but I
don't know what to do with them : I love reading stories, I love
discussing with them, I love going with them ... anywhere, the fact
of being together ... I'm not so good in playing with toys (I mean :
I can have a great fun playing in the pool, jumping, splashing, all
these, but give me a Playmobil soldier and I suddenly feel goofy and
stupid ...). I'm not very good in being there just in case, when
Sylvain plays with the computer, for instance, and asks for help
again and again ...

Yes, I think that's the most difficult for me is to be there, at
their disposal, and knowing that I can't do anything for me, whether
it is for my pleasure or because it needs to be done, because I know
that I'll be interrupted again and again ... I also know that it
would be better if I were truly with them, instead of being half
there, half thinking of my various to-do lists ... but I can't help
it (yet)

I feel quite depressed today, because when I began to read you (and
Sandra and Joyce's sites), it really had an impact in my ways with
the kids, I really felt more patient and relaxed ... and now that I
do have time, I'm stressed out again, and I yell again ... IT's as
if I had too much responsibilities and I don't feel like I can do
it. This morning, as I burst into cries, hidden behind a wall of
toilet paper in the supermaket, I was thinking "I shouldn't have all
these kids, I'm not able to take care of them as they deserve, etc."

I often read here that we are work in progress, so let's hope in
progress ...

Helen

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jul 7, 2006, at 8:30 AM, seccotine_ch wrote:

> Yes, I think that's the most difficult for me is to be there, at
> their disposal, and knowing that I can't do anything for me, whether
> it is for my pleasure or because it needs to be done, because I know
> that I'll be interrupted again and again ...

This time will end! My kids are now 15, 18, and 21 and I just had to
make a lunch date with my 21 year old in order to be sure I'd even
SEE her in the next week. It won't last - really! I remember feeling
the same way you do after I left my regular full-time employment to
stay home with my little ones - I felt like my whole day went by with
nothing "done" and like I'd never get to do something satisfying to
myself ever again. What I "did" about that was to get super into
reading about child development and about learning and then I'd keep
my focus on my own kids - watching, observing them. I kept a journal
- just jotted down little notes like: "Rosie seems to be guessing
what words are based on the first letter," or "Roxana needs needs to
be left alone when she's upset - not comforted immediately." Keeping
a journal (even though it was sometimes 3 or 4 words in an entry
because that's all the time I got) helped me feel more like something
was "happening" while getting my focus more clearly on the kids - out
of my own head. And - I always had a book going, but I had to learn
to read in bits - not like how I read before, in long uninterrupted
stretches. Nonfiction works way better for this than fiction - so
there were about 18 years of me reading almost entirely nonfiction -
until I got back into fiction a couple of years ago.

Also - it REALLY helped to take the kids out of the house to a public
area where there might be other parents. Even when my kids were
school age and the other parents only had toddlers and babies, it
gave me someone to talk to who understood how to carry on a
conversation in the midst of constant interruption. Where I live, it
is easy to start up a conversation with another parent - just stand
watching the kids on the playground and say, "Oh, your little boy is
so cute - look how well he's climbing that ladder. How old is he?"
Parents here are open to conversations with other parents. I'm not
sure that is the case everywhere, I know in Germany people didn't
seem to commonly talk to strangers in public settings like we do
here. But, if that works where you are, it is a great way to have a
little adult conversation during the day. In rainy weather I'd take
the kids to a shopping mall just to buy a cookie and I'd have a cup
of coffee (that someone ELSE had made - it was a treat!).

ALSO - I had a mother's helper - a teenage girl who came in and
played with the kids while I was there, in the house, but went off to
do my own thing for a while. I worked from home during some periods
of time - other times I just went and took a bath and read a book in
the tub. Sometimes I made phone calls. The time went fast - but I
think even an hour or two a couple of times per week could make a
HUGE difference.



> I also know that it
> would be better if I were truly with them, instead of being half
> there, half thinking of my various to-do lists ... but I can't help
> it (yet)
>
Yes you can - you can help it. You can do better for an hour, for
example. You can tell yourself: "For the next hour I'm on vacation
with my kids and we have nothing to do but have fun together." So do
that for an hour. Then tell the kids, "Okay, now I'm on work time and
won't be paying as much attention for the next hour." Alternate like
that. What you end up with is half your time with full focus on the
kids and half the time partially focused on them and partially on
getting other stuff done. That's FINE! That's awesome!

> I feel quite depressed today, because when I began to read you (and
> Sandra and Joyce's sites), it really had an impact in my ways with
> the kids, I really felt more patient and relaxed ... and now that I
> do have time, I'm stressed out again, and I yell again ... IT's as
> if I had too much responsibilities and I don't feel like I can do
> it. This morning, as I burst into cries, hidden behind a wall of
> toilet paper in the supermaket, I was thinking "I shouldn't have all
> these kids, I'm not able to take care of them as they deserve, etc."

Sweetie - you don't get the luxury of self-pity (even if you deserve
it). You do have kids and they need a happy mommy. So you do owe it
to them to take care of yourself. Do you get enough sleep, eat well,
get a little regular exercise? If you really are a little depressed,
try St. John's Wort - it works great for mild to moderate depression.
If you think you're seriously depressed please see a doctor - you can
take an anti-depressant for a while, jump start yourself and begin
feeling like having more fun in your life again, and pretty soon you
might not need the medications. Also, I have a friend who goes out
EVERY Friday night by herself or with girlfriends. She almost always
goes to a movie - she picks artsy interesting movies that her husband
probably wouldn't even want to see. She's done this every Friday
night for probably 12 years or more. Would a night out help? Having
something like that to look forward to this WEEK?

I never liked to play "Little People" or dolls or any of that stuff
with my kids. They could tell. So - occasionally I'd be part of their
play, but they'd have to tell me what to do <G>. It wasn't that
satisfying to any of us - they didn't ask it of me too often. But I
did lots of other things with them. I don't think adults need to be
watching kids play and cheering them on or anything - just be
available, you don't have to be part of it all the time, or even most
of the time.

Think of things you might enjoy, yourself, that you could share with
the kids. Get good quality finger paints and fingerpainting paper and
YOU fingerpaint and invite them to join in. Same with watercolors. Or
- buy a bunch of disposable cameras and all of you go out and take
photos together of nature or city life or whatever. You get to
participate at YOUR level, too, that way.

Although you do have to get used to be interrupted all the time - and
functioning that way is a skill you might not yet have -- you don't
have to put ALL your attention on your kids to the point that you're
feeling martyred - that's not even very good for them. Think of it as
modeling an adult being interested in things, too.

What are your hobbies? What would you like to do with yourself OTHER
than clean the house and do laundry, etc.?

-pam




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michelle/Melbrigða

I had to respond to this part of your original post:
"So we spend our mornings in our (tiny) garden, then we flow back
inside, close everything and wait for the sun to turn - and at five,
we live again."

I could have written that but it would look more like: So we spend
our springs in our (tiny) garden, then we flow back inside, close
everything and wait for the seasons to turn - and at autumn we live
again." :-) We are not summer people (so what the heck are we doing
living in Florida?). We joke (although it is mostly true) that we go
from air conditioned building to air conditioned car into a different
air conditioned building during the summer. None of us truly enjoy
the heat, so we tend to hibernate during the summer and then go out to
play in the cooler months. It doesn't help that poor Keon is horribly
allergic to misquitos and gets huge welts on him that make him look
like he has a perpetual case of chicken pox and that he is allergic to
grass. Anytime someone cuts their grass in the neighborhood (which is
often) he has to stay inside for most of the day or he will get stuffy
and wheezy. And people wonder why we don't water our grass and have
let it go dormant in this stupid draught.


> Maybe it's the fact of being the only person in charge - I
> guess that there must be a little bit of that, because I can feel
> the tension go when my husband comes back - even when he does
> nothing but reading the paper ...

I used to be like that. In fact for a short while (even though I only
worked when Emily was a few months old and have been a SAHM since) I
actually waited for my co-parent to get home before doing *anything.*
It was like we waited for his arrival to begin our lives. I got over
it by just being used to being alone with our children. I think his
working out of town for weeks on end made me want to have a life. :-)

>
> Anyway, I don't know why, all I'm thinking of is "getting a little
> space for me" ...

When my children were much younger I would actually schedule "me
time." Whether it was just doing the grocery shopping alone or a
monthly or weekly craft class, I scheduled time for me. I'm an
important part of the family as well. I did this even when our babies
were small because I learned their schedules and knew that I could be
away from them for 1.5-3 hours here and there. For a while I was
taking myself to the movies and going to the showings that started at
9:30 or 10:00 at night because I knew our baby would be in his long
slumber at that time and not wake up.

>
> I have the feeling they would like me to initiate things, but I
> don't know what to do with them : I love reading stories, I love
> discussing with them, I love going with them ... anywhere, the fact
> of being together ... I'm not so good in playing with toys (I mean :
> I can have a great fun playing in the pool, jumping, splashing, all
> these, but give me a Playmobil soldier and I suddenly feel goofy and
> stupid ...).

It's ok to feel goofy and silly (I doubt you are stupid :) ) That's
what play is. Laugh, enjoy, be silly! All too soon they are going to
be dressing in black and only be concerned with serious things like
the Korean missile testing and why the heck the Jews and Muslems can't
get along in Israel and why the environment is going to hell in a hand
basket. Enjoy this goofy silly time!

> I'm not very good in being there just in case, when
> Sylvain plays with the computer, for instance, and asks for help
> again and again ...

When Keon first started getting on the computer he had problems
reading URL's to type them in. To help him with this and to also
limit his accidentally ending up at a website that featured nude
Disney characters doing things I didn't think he was quite ready for
at 3 years old LOL! I created shortcuts for him on the desktop so he
could click on an icon and go straight to Disney, or Hotwheels or
Neopets. All his user names and passwords were the same and written
on a 3x5 card that was taped to the computer.

>
> Yes, I think that's the most difficult for me is to be there, at
> their disposal, and knowing that I can't do anything for me, whether
> it is for my pleasure or because it needs to be done, because I know
> that I'll be interrupted again and again ... I also know that it
> would be better if I were truly with them, instead of being half
> there, half thinking of my various to-do lists ... but I can't help
> it (yet)

This is all new to you. Give yourself time and if you get interupted,
know that that task will still be there when you are finished playing
with your kids.

> I often read here that we are work in progress, so let's hope in
> progress ...
>

We are always a work in progress. We are always on a journey. if the
work gets completed or the journey completed, there won't be anything
worth living for. Sure would be boring without all the self-discovery
and adventures!

--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

seccotine_ch

Michelle and Pam, thank you so much for your answers ...

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who estivate (the word
exists : in the Sahara desert, little mice spend the whole summer
buried into the sand, waiting for a more clement season) !

My husband came home and I left to walk the dogs. While I was
walking in the countryside, watching the beautiful changing sky, I
felt the tension leaving my body. I realised that during the day, I
get more and more tensed, and suddenly, I explode for a little
incident ... I was wondering if there were a way to relax physically
in order to avoid these outbursts ... (though I don't know, between
the physical tension and the mental one which is the hen and which
is the egg ...)

I guess that the problem is the shift from segmented/specialised
times to the more organic/intertwined life I'm experiencing now. I
have to find new marks. By reading your posts, I realise that I am
such a beginner in this new life, that this is something so
different (not only the radical unschooling thing, but also
the "living together" one), that this is not surprising if I
feel lost and not good at it ...

Pam, I really liked the way you told me that I couldn't afford self-
pity - it was so empowering ! I absolutely agree with you. I'm not
depressed, actually, I usually feel very privileged and happy, but
yesterday, I was this miserable little thing who "didn't even know
what to cook for luhuhuhunch".

I wrote about it, because I have moments like this from time to
time, though they're only moments, where I feel at loss and
overwhelmed by the huge responsibility of being a parent ... but I
notice that it happens mostly when I loose touch with my children
(which was very the case yesterday).

That's one of the reasons why I like so much the way you, radical
unschoolers, talk about parenting. When I read you, it really feel
like : yes, this is truth. And the reason why I feel that is not
that I'm inclined to follow a new guru - it is because what you say
speaks directly to the life in me (what I tried to translate once
by "talking to my cells"), the part which has remained undamaged and
which is constantly seeking for healing forces.

But this is also why I felt so strange this week, because on the one
hand, I read words which were driving me in the right track (sorry
for the image, cannot find my words to express what I really felt
here) and on the other hand, there was something (what ???)
resisting in me, which makes me act in complete contradiction with
my beliefs - at the moment where my beliefs where so much reinforced
by my readings. (Does anybody understand what I'm writing here ?)

I'm not looking for excuses, I'm trying to understand what's going
on in me :) Ren said in another post that unschooling was such a
healing process, and I really think that too - but I'm always
surprised (though it is not the first time) with the resistance and
fights such a process encounters.

Many, many thanks. I really appreciate your bluntness AND
kindness - and also all these practical, down to the earth pieces of
advice you give, which are sooo helpful ? useful ? don't know, but
priceless anyway :)

Helen

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jul 8, 2006, at 3:31 AM, seccotine_ch wrote:

> I'm not looking for excuses, I'm trying to understand what's going
> on in me :) Ren said in another post that unschooling was such a
> healing process, and I really think that too - but I'm always
> surprised (though it is not the first time) with the resistance and
> fights such a process encounters.

We have all gone through it. I took to unschooling instantly - "got
it" - knew it was right, knew it was what we'd do. It felt natural to
me - it was a logical and easy extension of the way I'd been raised
and the way I'd lived with my babies and toddlers.

But STILL I resort to yelling and guilt-inducing and sometimes get so
frustrated and angry that I say things I thoroughly regret. Each new
age of kids (and adults) - each new stage - brings new challenges and
we have new things to learn about ourselves and how we react.

What has helped me is this: In the midst of reacting in a way I
really don't want to act, a little voice in my head says, "Think of
two options first." What that means is that I'm telling myself to not
react until I'm choosing the best of at least two possible reactions.
So - I quickly think - "YELL!" because that is what is about to come
out, and then I think "OR ......" - and I force myself to think of
something else. Often, that much of a pause is enough to get me to
think of what someone on this list has previously suggested - hug,
touch, breathe, etc. So I choose the better of the two alternatives.
EVEN if my urge is to throw something and the only other alternative
I can think of is to slam a door - slamming a door is a better
alternative (usually). It is a PROCESS - and getting the habit of
choosing between at least two options is a HUGE big step in that
process - if that can become a habit, then you'll find that you start
to choose between better and better options.

-pam

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