Queana

Something someone asked over on the new "unelite unschooling" list
inspired me to blurt all this out, which I've never really put into
writing before.
I'm curious what the response would be from "radical unschoolers" to
my thoughts.



I personally think applying the term "unschooling" to other topics
regarding children and choices is a misnomer. It just doesn't make
sense to me.

I have always had a respectful, trusting, non-punitive relationship
with my kids (albeit never perfectly). Yet they have been in school
until this year. By their choice. Homeschooling was always given
to them as an option. It was finally chosen. They always had a
totally different range of choices, and a totally different
relationship with us than did their friends. "Freedoms" such as
what and how much tv, videogames, books, food, activities, etc. to
have and use. Again, we have never been perfectly consistent, but
have always strived for that ideal.

My children have always been happy, trusting and wonderful people,
who have learned many, many things of their own volition and in
their own free time and love learning. Yet they have always been in
school until this year.

So many of the traits and qualities and successes of unschooling I
see as traits and qualities and successes of decent parenting which
is found in all walks of life (albeit not very often), not just
among those who don't use a structured curriculum for homeschooling.

I have read, and not participated much, on unschooling lists for
several years because that is where (on the internet) I found people
most in line with my philosophy towards my children. But I've
always been a little bit baffled by the implication that unschooling
is the only way to have that kind of relationship with your kids,
and that lack of curriculum necessarily goes along with lack of
rules so to speak.

Another thing that seems strange to me is the idea that respectful
and trusting relationships imply a lack of expectations. I have a
respectful and trusting relationship with my husband, yet I have
expectations of him. I expect him to be respectful of me and our
kids. I expect him to carry a share in our family partnership that
we agreed upon, which includes both of us producing income, keeping
the house livable, feeding the family, and taking care of the kids.
If I feel he isn't meeting my expectations, and I examine them to
see if they are reasonable, we will talk about it. Unless I get all
pissy and yell about it first, lol.

In the same way I have expectations of my kids. I expect them to
treat each other and their parents respectfully. I expect them to
participate in keeping the house straightened up at their own
ability level. I expect them to help take care of our animals.

My family also has expectations of me. They expect me to
participate in keeping the house up, producing income, taking care
of them, helping them when they need help, etc.

Expectations are fluid; if I'm sick, nobody expects me to make
dinner. If my husband lost his job nobody would expect him to
produce income until he found another way to do that. If someone is
out of town, others take care of that person's animals. If my
husband or I decided we didn't want to produce income any more, we
would discuss how to make that work.

I can't see any mistrust or disrespect in our family dynamics due to
these expectations that we have of each other. Nothing is designed
to teach anybody a lesson or to make sure they "turn out" a certain
way. It is simply the way we live together in harmony (obviously
not harmony all the time, but that's the purpose of it). Of course,
the idea of expectations could be used to excuse all kinds of
negative actions within a family, and maybe that is why it is not
talked about much within the context of radical unschooling.
Expectations do not equal rules; do not lead to mistrust, dishonesty
or sneakiness; can lead to satisfaction for everybody.

So... in my opinion, having a trusting and cooperative relationship
with your children is a wonderful idea that coincides wonderfully
with unschooling but shouldn't fall under the definition of
unschooling as intended by John Holt;
and, having a trusting and cooperative relationship with your
children does not require a lack of mutual expectations within that
relationship. Since parents hold the Big-People-Money-Maker power
within the relationship it is their responsibility to be constantly
soul-searching and vigilant regarding that relationship.

Thoughts, anyone? :)

~Q~

Danielle Conger

Queana wrote:

>
> Another thing that seems strange to me is the idea that respectful
> and trusting relationships imply a lack of expectations. I have a
> respectful and trusting relationship with my husband, yet I have
> expectations of him. I expect him to be respectful of me and our
> kids. I expect him to carry a share in our family partnership that
> we agreed upon, which includes both of us producing income, keeping
> the house livable, feeding the family, and taking care of the kids.
> If I feel he isn't meeting my expectations, and I examine them to
> see if they are reasonable, we will talk about it. Unless I get all
> pissy and yell about it first, lol.
>
> In the same way I have expectations of my kids. I expect them to
> treat each other and their parents respectfully. I expect them to
> participate in keeping the house straightened up at their own
> ability level. I expect them to help take care of our animals.
>



I'm pulling this out because it jumped out at me--I'm sure there are
lots of other interesting ideas for exploration within the post.

The big difference, imo, is how the word "expectations" is used and
defined. There are broad "expectations" that are based on previous
experience--i.e. deductive reasoning: because the sun comes up every
day, I deduce that it will come up every day. I "expect" my dh to go to
work every day because he enjoys going to work. There are days when I
wish he'd decide to stay home, and I'd certainly support him if he no
longer enjoyed what he did and wanted to stop going to work. I "expect"
him to discuss a potential job switch (which we just went through) with
us as a family before making it, out of respect for all the members of
the family and the way that decision would affect us all.

I don't have those same kinds of "expectations" for my children, in part
because I don't have the same kind of history that would back up such
deductions. Similarly, I don't have the same kind of "expectations" for
consideration of others because they haven't had the same time on this
planet that my dh has in order to fully grasp in advance the ways in
which their actions may impact others and because their actions aren't
likely to carry the same weight as, for example, dh choosing to switch
jobs without consulting us.

While I agree with the statement, "expectations are fluid," I'm not sure
I agree with the comparisons, generalizations and extrapolations made in
the examples, iykwim. So, while I might be quite put out if dh announced
tomorrow that he was moving to Chicago, I wouldn't be remotely phased at
my kids (almost 9, 7 and 6) not meeting my personal need for respect in
one of our interactions. Quite the contrary, I believe my kids are still
learning the nuances of interpersonal relations and "expectations," or,
as I would be more comfortable phrasing and considering it,
consideration of others "needs," and I believe that part of my job as
their parent is to help them negotiate and consider others' needs,
including my own. I don't "expect" my kids to know how to "treat each
other and their parents respectfully" or to even know what that means at
their age, nor do I "expect" them to be perfect practitioners of that at
any age, as I'm certainly not perfect by any stretch. I think sometimes
that parents have the tendency to hold their children to higher
standards than they hold themselves to, and I find that particularly
problematic, whether it be in the context of behavior or health or
whatever. If I can't always do whatever myself, then I have no business
"expecting" whatever from anyone else, basically. Though, there's a big
difference between not being perfect and being regularly abusive, iykwim.

--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (7), Sam (6)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Connections: ezine of unschooling and mindful parenting
http://connections.organiclearning.org

Queana

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Danielle Conger
> Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 6:29 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Rules vs. expectations; unschooling vs.
> parenting
>
> Queana wrote:
>
> >
> > Another thing that seems strange to me is the idea that respectful
> > and trusting relationships imply a lack of expectations. I have a
> > respectful and trusting relationship with my husband, yet I have
> > expectations of him. I expect him to be respectful of me and our
> > kids. I expect him to carry a share in our family partnership that
> > we agreed upon, which includes both of us producing income, keeping
> > the house livable, feeding the family, and taking care of the kids.
> > If I feel he isn't meeting my expectations, and I examine them to
> > see if they are reasonable, we will talk about it. Unless I get all
> > pissy and yell about it first, lol.
> >
> > In the same way I have expectations of my kids. I expect them to
> > treat each other and their parents respectfully. I expect them to
> > participate in keeping the house straightened up at their own
> > ability level. I expect them to help take care of our animals.
> >
>
> I'm pulling this out because it jumped out at me--I'm sure there are
> lots of other interesting ideas for exploration within the post.
>
> The big difference, imo, is how the word "expectations" is used and
> defined. There are broad "expectations" that are based on previous
> experience--i.e. deductive reasoning: because the sun comes up every
> day, I deduce that it will come up every day. I "expect" my dh to go to
> work every day because he enjoys going to work. There are days when I
> wish he'd decide to stay home, and I'd certainly support him if he no
> longer enjoyed what he did and wanted to stop going to work. I "expect"
> him to discuss a potential job switch (which we just went through) with
> us as a family before making it, out of respect for all the members of
> the family and the way that decision would affect us all.
>
> I don't have those same kinds of "expectations" for my children, in part
> because I don't have the same kind of history that would back up such
> deductions. Similarly, I don't have the same kind of "expectations" for
> consideration of others because they haven't had the same time on this
> planet that my dh has in order to fully grasp in advance the ways in
> which their actions may impact others and because their actions aren't
> likely to carry the same weight as, for example, dh choosing to switch
> jobs without consulting us.
>


[***] I guess my "expectations" aren't based entirely on what has happened
in the past, but on what we agree are good and reasonable ways to live. So,
I might be a bitch to my husband today but hopefully he won't expect me to
always be a bitch <g>
I don't really expect my kids to be considerate in the sense that I assume
they always will; instead it's more in the sense of considering it
reasonable that people will be considerate to the best of their ability. So
when they're not considerate it's something that is noticeable and that we
will talk about.


> While I agree with the statement, "expectations are fluid," I'm not sure
> I agree with the comparisons, generalizations and extrapolations made in
> the examples, iykwim. So, while I might be quite put out if dh announced
> tomorrow that he was moving to Chicago, I wouldn't be remotely phased at
> my kids (almost 9, 7 and 6) not meeting my personal need for respect in
> one of our interactions. Quite the contrary, I believe my kids are still
> learning the nuances of interpersonal relations and "expectations," or,
> as I would be more comfortable phrasing and considering it,
> consideration of others "needs," and I believe that part of my job as
> their parent is to help them negotiate and consider others' needs,
> including my own. I don't "expect" my kids to know how to "treat each
> other and their parents respectfully" or to even know what that means at
> their age, nor do I "expect" them to be perfect practitioners of that at
> any age, as I'm certainly not perfect by any stretch.

[***] Good points here. I should have clarified my meaning of the word
"expectations" in my original post. Hopefully it makes more sense now.
Some of my kids are a bit older than yours at 15, 11 and 7 so in a lot of
ways they *do* know how to treat their parents and each other respectfully.
That definitely changes and grows with age and maturity. I think I agree
with the way you phrased this.


I think sometimes
> that parents have the tendency to hold their children to higher
> standards than they hold themselves to, and I find that particularly
> problematic, whether it be in the context of behavior or health or
> whatever. If I can't always do whatever myself, then I have no business
> "expecting" whatever from anyone else, basically. Though, there's a big
> difference between not being perfect and being regularly abusive, iykwim.
>
> --
> ~~Danielle
> Emily (8), Julia (7), Sam (6)
> http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com
> <http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com>
>
> ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

[***] I definitely don't hold them to higher standards than I hold myself
to. When I say something stupid I apologize; when I treat someone
disrespectfully I apologize. I expect (think it's reasonable) that others
will do the same. If they don't, I wonder why and we might talk about it
then or later. They may not know that they have offended someone. They may
not care, if they were mad or whatever. But it would be something to talk
about.

~Q~
aka Sarah
http://www.unbridledlearning.com

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Joyce Fetteroll

On Jul 2, 2006, at 8:47 PM, Queana wrote:

> So many of the traits and qualities and successes of unschooling I
> see as traits and qualities and successes of decent parenting

But what is "decent parenting"?

It's such a vague term that everyone will have a different
definition. It just means, basically, applying your own values to
parenting. It can extend to authoritarian to hands off and everything
in between!

I think there are two big factors in raising happy, respectful, kind
kids: personality and respect. And I think *your* definition of
"decent parenting" is being respectful of your kids.

There isn't much we can do about personality! ;-) so I think respect
is key. And I think when other methods work it's because either the
child's personality meshes with the method or there's a whole lot of
respect going on that's counteracting the disrespect inherent in so
many other parenting methods.

My parents played out the roles they were supposed to play: my mom
took care of the house, my dad went to work and took care of the
maintenance. My sister's and my roles were to play and do well in
school. They took us on yearly vacations and played games and did
puzzles occasionally. I don't remember personal interaction.
Basically they did things for us but not a lot *with* us.

It worked because I'm a big rule follower, I *like* to know how
things are "supposed" to be, and was a natural at school. I don't
even remember there being rules because I took to them so naturally.
My sister less so, but her need to question things was only slightly
more than mine.

There "philosophy" of explain the rules and let them run free worked
because of our personalities. I think it would fail miserably for
lots of families! In the end it was luck and genetics ;-)

But I think respect works regardless of personality. And I think that
when inherently disrespectful parenting practices "work" it's because
respect (or personality!) are counteracting them. It's really the
respect that's working, not the parenting method. How to respect kids
we can discuss. How to get kids' personalities to mesh with a
parent's preferred parenting method we can't ;-)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Queana

Decent parenting by *my* definition of course <g> I don't think it means
applying your own values to parenting though... my dad values his
relationship with his God and his wife more than that with his kids. That's
not decent parenting. Parents of lots of my kids' friends value their
social standing and what others will think more than their kids. That's not
decent parenting.

To me, decent means respecting your kids as equal human beings with human
being rights and responsibilities instead of property, trophies, pets,
inconveniences, etc; obviously those rights and responsibilities can't be
just thrown at them but they grow into them gradually.

I have seen this in my own family and other families who are in school, or
who are using curriculum, or who are not using any curriculum. Not often in
enough in any, imo.

Like Pam said, I may have been reading between the lines a bit too much.
I've read these lists for years *while* my kids were in school (by choice)
and always *felt* like an oddball but never actually asked what others'
perspectives were. I have one that's back in school after taking half the
year out, and who thinks public high school is the best thing since sliced
bread. Talk about an oddball, lol. He loves the sports and the social
thing and doesn't care about jumping through all their hoops in order to do
what he wants to do.

I'm glad I brought it up here because it has really clarified a lot in my
mind. I love a lot of what many of you say and it turns out some of the
inconsistencies I thought I saw may not have really been there.

~Q~
aka Sarah
http://www.unbridledlearning.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Joyce Fetteroll
> Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 2:28 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Rules vs. expectations; unschooling vs.
> parenting
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2006, at 8:47 PM, Queana wrote:
>
> > So many of the traits and qualities and successes of unschooling I
> > see as traits and qualities and successes of decent parenting
>
> But what is "decent parenting"?
>
> It's such a vague term that everyone will have a different
> definition. It just means, basically, applying your own values to
> parenting. It can extend to authoritarian to hands off and everything
> in between!
>
> I think there are two big factors in raising happy, respectful, kind
> kids: personality and respect. And I think *your* definition of
> "decent parenting" is being respectful of your kids.
>
> There isn't much we can do about personality! ;-) so I think respect
> is key. And I think when other methods work it's because either the
> child's personality meshes with the method or there's a whole lot of
> respect going on that's counteracting the disrespect inherent in so
> many other parenting methods.
>
> My parents played out the roles they were supposed to play: my mom
> took care of the house, my dad went to work and took care of the
> maintenance. My sister's and my roles were to play and do well in
> school. They took us on yearly vacations and played games and did
> puzzles occasionally. I don't remember personal interaction.
> Basically they did things for us but not a lot *with* us.
>
> It worked because I'm a big rule follower, I *like* to know how
> things are "supposed" to be, and was a natural at school. I don't
> even remember there being rules because I took to them so naturally.
> My sister less so, but her need to question things was only slightly
> more than mine.
>
> There "philosophy" of explain the rules and let them run free worked
> because of our personalities. I think it would fail miserably for
> lots of families! In the end it was luck and genetics ;-)
>
> But I think respect works regardless of personality. And I think that
> when inherently disrespectful parenting practices "work" it's because
> respect (or personality!) are counteracting them. It's really the
> respect that's working, not the parenting method. How to respect kids
> we can discuss. How to get kids' personalities to mesh with a
> parent's preferred parenting method we can't ;-)
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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