Ren Allen

"Without setting such high and strict expectations, teenagers WILL
flake out, because the drum corps scene is extremely rigorous."

High and strict expectations are NOT what unschooling is about. All of
your extreme examples of the Corps, are NOT going to help anyone
understand unschooling or be more gentle with their children.

The idea of trusting a child to pick and choose activities is what
this list is advocating. An extreme example that is NOT on anyone's
radar blip with their child is not going to help. Anyone that trains
people in the corps and think the same methods will help further the
philosophy of unschooling is sadly mistaken.

Move past this please and stick to the TOPIC, which is unschooling,
not the corps. We can discuss the idea of whether or not children
should have freedom of choice without using such an extreme example
that has nothing to do with unschooling.


Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

~If it were not that kind of masochistic challenge, it wouldn't be
drum corps, and the kids who love it wouldn't do it if it were
anything less. If that kind of culture seems attrocious to you, then
you won't want to join yourself, and you won't want your child to
join. But standing on the outside, throwing stones at it, comparing
it to "knitting club" is a little silly.~

Don't assume people don't know about it.
Some of the people here are military families and know plenty about
the rigors of various corps.

It's not "throwing stones" at it to use comparisons.

This has nothing to do with helping people unschool. This conversation
can return to the philosophy of helping people move closer to respect
for children (not forcing them to do some masichistic challenge!) or
the messages won't make it to the list.

This has gone too far.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Elissa Jill Cleaveland

High and strict expectations are NOT what unschooling is about. All of
your extreme examples of the Corps, are NOT going to help anyone
understand unschooling or be more gentle with their children.
**
I agree. Isn't D& B Corp a SCHOOL thing?
I have found that generally when the question about "letting a child quit" comes up, it has to do with a small child (under 10) who is wanting to end some program they've started. It doesn't come up for the first time with a young adult who is passionate about said activity. I think it is vital for young people to try and then put aside many different activities. It helps them to know who they are, where their passions lie. Many people will purposely not join those types of groups/hobbies that have those types of expectations, I know I won't at this time in my life.

OF course there are activities that require a level of committment: a rock band that is gigging, a military reinactment group, farm league baseball, serious bowling league (Gee Whiz, can you tell I live out in the country? LOL) but a child would hopefully not start out making a committment for the first time in one of those groups. There are also commitments outside of hobbies. I have serious committments to my husband, my children, my mother, my friends, my employer.
Our children WILL easily commit or have already easily committed to those people and things they really love, while discerning what things and people are not right in their lives. It is a gift to ourselves to realize, this is wrong for me and therefore for us. Let's go in different directions. It is a strength to be able to say so.

Elissa Jill
A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
"A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb

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Michelle/Melbrigða

On 6/20/06, Elissa Jill Cleaveland <MystikMomma@...> wrote:
>
> OF course there are activities that require a level of committment: a rock band that is gigging, a military reinactment group, farm league baseball, serious bowling league (Gee Whiz, can you tell I live out in the country? LOL) but a child would hopefully not start out making a committment for the first time in one of those groups. There are also commitments outside of hobbies. I have serious committments to my husband, my children, my mother, my friends, my employer.

******************
Or a child who has these interests won't start out at the level that
requires that kind of commitment. When you start playing rock music
you don't start by playing in gigs. You start by getting your friends
together in your garage and playing. Later you decide that you want
to do some gigs so you start marketing yourself and going to
auditions. You build up to those things. And if you *really* want to
play rock music at clubs or shows then you will want to commit to
those things. And how often have we seen not only garage bands but
professional bands turn over members like flipping pages in a book?
:) Same would go for bowling. You start with Saturday Children's
League where "no one gets benched in bowling" is the theme, but where
there is no commitment as there would be on a Friday night year long
league game.

Our children don't learn commitments through being forced into a
regimental commitment experience, just as they don't learn to run a
marathon by beginning the first step of a 26 mile race the day after
they learn to walk.
--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

Elissa Jill Cleaveland

Or a child who has these interests won't start out at the level that
requires that kind of commitment.

******
EXACTLY!! :o)
Elissa Jill
A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
"A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb

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Ren Allen

~Our children don't learn commitments through being forced into a
regimental commitment experience, just as they don't learn to run a
marathon by beginning the first step of a 26 mile race the day after
they learn to walk.~

Ren Allen

~Our children don't learn commitments through being forced into a
regimental commitment experience, just as they don't learn to run a
marathon by beginning the first step of a 26 mile race the day after
they learn to walk.~

Speaking of marathons, this whole conversation has got me thinking
about what human beings WILL do without a coach, or drill sargeant or
anyone but themselves to motivate them.

A blind man climbed Mt. Everest. Anyone that climbs Everest (or better
yet, K-2) can tell you how intense and grueling the training is.

My cousins up in AK, charted a course down the Firth river which had
never before been navigated (many good kayakers told them they'd die)
and ended them in the Arctic ocean. Lots of training, lots of planning
and over two months of pretty extreme and not-so-fun physical effort.
At one point the river went underground. It didn't show this on the
map, because it was an uncharted river!! Bears, whales and other
dangers were the norm. This isn't the first trip they've done like
this, and certainly not the last.

I just read an article about a Doctor that is finishing her
internship. Becoming a Doctor takes 11 years of dedication. The
internship (over the last three years) is 60-80 hour weeks. You can
quit at any time....but lots don't.

Training for a triathlon; dh and I did just a sprint distance, not
nearly as difficult as the higher level races. It still takes a
consistent dedication and ability to put aside other things you might
rather do! I had several friends that did the adventure races, talk
about grueling!

Athletes regularly push themselves to high limits, with and without
teams.

I'm sure all of us can think of examples of people willing to push
themselves to their outer limits out of sheer motivation. I think
unschooled kids are best equipped to understand their own motivations
and test their own limits.

Ooh,ooh...what about Barb Lundgrens oldest son that chose to live
homeless for a while, just to learn and understand? Wow.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Willa Ryan

>>Athletes regularly push themselves to high limits, with and without
teams.

I'm sure all of us can think of examples of people willing to push
themselves to their outer limits out of sheer motivation. I think
unschooled kids are best equipped to understand their own motivations
and test their own limits.>>>

My brother in law, who's in his fifties, runs marathons. I guess most people have to wait until they're out of school to do that kind of thing, or fit it in the fringes of their school life.

My second son wrote a 600 page novel between the ages of 15 and 17. He's just finished the second draft now. Almost every day he'd go to his room and work until he had written four pages. He did not even know how to type beyond hunt and peck when he started, and now he can touch type fluently.

I read a book called "Flow" recently -- about the concept that it is actually doing something both personally challenging and personally rewarding that builds the foundation for commitment and pushing limits. Not being forced to do things "to build character". Who pushes themselves to their limits to do something they hate? It's difficult just to do the minimum for those things. But being able to work hard at something for the love of it seems to transfer over to other areas; you can learn to endure discomfort and learn difficult new skills for the sake of something that is meaningful for you personally. At least, that's what I'm noticing both in my kids and in the other people around me, so what the book said seems to make a lot of sense.

Willa


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Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 20, 2006, at 9:56 PM, Willa Ryan wrote:

> My brother in law, who's in his fifties, runs marathons. I guess
> most people have to wait until they're out of school to do that
> kind of thing, or fit it in the fringes of their school life.

Although many people start to get "themselves" back, slowly, over
time, after they are out of school, I think they have to have had
some kind of less-than-common inner strength to get through schooling
without having detached themselves from their own core, their own
inner sense of themselves, so much that they can never manage to
really fully get it back.

I think most of us were damaged by school and, although mostly able
to recover over the years, we are forever operating with some
handicaps. The wonder of it is that we maintained enough sense of our
individual strengths and enough independent ability to think for
ourselves that we're giving our children the chance to grow up
without any school-caused disabilities. Amazing.

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





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mooosey3

I was thinking about this thread last night when I was at Haley's soccer
practice last night and I thought how sad that there aren't more
mindful parents out there in this world! This little 5 yo girl on
Haley's team did not want to practice. She kept going over to the side
lines wanting to sit. Her mom yelled at her. Yelled! The mom made her
go back out to practice and only a few minutes later the poor thing ran
into a boy head first and split her lip. She was crying and screaming
and the Mom was trying not to get blood on herself and forcing her
daughter to lay down in the grass. It was horrible to see and as the
girl is crying the mom is telling her to be quiet and telling her it
wasn't bad and that she was making too big of a deal over it. Unreal!!
The whole event frightened Haley and she wanted to sit on my lap and
observe her teammate in safety. I hugged Haley and told her that her
friend would be okay and that after her friend calmed down she could go
see if she was alright. My mothering instinct in me wanted to go over
to the little girl and hug her and nurture her, but my mothering came
first to Haley.

I think many times parents put their kids in things for themselves and
not the kids. They are putting too many things first instead of their
own child. Thinking about the other players and finishing something
through ahead of what a child really wanting to quit is so wrong. I
think it is great for kids to TRY things. If they love it, great. If
not, they tried something new and had an experience. It takes great
courage to just try new things.



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