Ren Allen

"but when a newbie parent comes here freaking out because this is new
and their children are doing the usual stuck on TV or video games and
its new and scary to them---they get chatised and judged for reacting
and worrying. "

Bullshit.
They get advice and support and information and questions.
They get loads of FREE information and complete gentleness UNTIL they
start lambasting the folks that live this lifestyle.

If someone comes on here with a vague notion of what unschooling
really is, they may find it very challenging and have quite a bit to
say. That's cool. I've never seen anyone "chastised" or "judged" but I
have seen them questioned heavily. The guidelines explain that if you
don't want something discussed, please don't post about it.

The folks that might find it a difficult list are the ones that want
to storm in here all brimstone and hellfire, telling us how screwed up
our kids will be if we live exactly how we're ALREADY living (and
without any of the mythical detrimental effects they assume).

I was just thinking about unschooling and some discussions held at the
recent conference about the whole "unparenting" issue.
FREEDOM is only half of the whole unschooling equation.
MINDFULNESS (awareness) is the other essential half and freedom
without the mindfulness is basically anarchy. You really need both
for successful unschooling. I actually believe that if all you're
going to do is give kids loads of freedom without being present and
mindful, then traditional parenting is BETTER.

Once again, I love this list, I love sharing the unschooling lifestyle
with people irl and at conferences. But please remember, we are all
VOLUNTEERS and it gets old to hear about how lame the list is, or how
we're all so judgemental. If people don't like it, there are other
resources. Hell, anyone can start their own list for that matter.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 6/2/06, Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> If someone comes on here with a vague notion of what unschooling
> really is, they may find it very challenging and have quite a bit to
> say. That's cool. I've never seen anyone "chastised" or "judged" but I
> have seen them questioned heavily. The guidelines explain that if you
> don't want something discussed, please don't post about it.


I know that the vegetarian analogy has been used, but I'll use it again :)
Consider if you were on a list for vegetarian living. A new person signs on
and the first thing that they post is along the lines of, "I hate
vegetarianism. I have no energy. I'm not getting enough protein and iron.
I'm tired of eating salads and I just think it is the wrong thing to do."
How long do you think it is going to take for that person to be "judged" and
"chastized"? They most likely will be questioned as to why they joined a
vegetarian list to begin with if they hate it so much. Now what the person
*may* be asking is, "I'm having difficulty with understanding how to get
enough pretein and iron in my diet. I know I'm not eating the right foods.
Can you help me figure out what I am doing wrong so that I can continue to
have a healthy and vegetarian lifestyle?" But that's not what they asked.
The condemned veggie eating, made a bunch of people angry and then when
people didn't answer their real (underlying and deeply cloaked) question of
how to fix their eating, they got huffy and decided that all vegetarians are
mean and judgemental. It's this one person's attitude, not the list's. :)

Did the person who started this thread do anything different? I doubt it.
But she also didn't come here with a seemingly open mind or at least she
didn't represent herself as such. She also didn't represent herself as
truly unschooling. It seems like they were "unliving." In a pergatory-like
holding pattern waiting for life to do something for them. It makes me
wonder if she actually had read much on unschooling or trusted any of the
things she has read because of mainstream prejudices.





--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marsaili

Well, in a recent thread a panicked mother was accused of being
neglectful---which I was totally surprised to see since she obviously was
NOT, especially since she came here for help. In her case, her kids have
done nothing but play video games and watch TV for 4 years, she is obviously
mindful of that and has tried to sway them onto other activities to no
avail. So, where would the happy medium be for her, how can she get her
kids out of their room without forcing her ideals/interests on them--still
giving them freedom and being mindful??? I think that issue is what is hard
for newbies---I know I had to deal with that with my boys, of course it was
for 2 months, not 4 years---but it certainly is scary nontheless!

Leslie:-)
_____

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 8:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] hating homeschooling and unparenting


"but when a newbie parent comes here freaking out because this is new
and their children are doing the usual stuck on TV or video games and
its new and scary to them---they get chatised and judged for reacting
and worrying. "

Bullshit.
They get advice and support and information and questions.
They get loads of FREE information and complete gentleness UNTIL they
start lambasting the folks that live this lifestyle.

If someone comes on here with a vague notion of what unschooling
really is, they may find it very challenging and have quite a bit to
say. That's cool. I've never seen anyone "chastised" or "judged" but I
have seen them questioned heavily. The guidelines explain that if you
don't want something discussed, please don't post about it.

The folks that might find it a difficult list are the ones that want
to storm in here all brimstone and hellfire, telling us how screwed up
our kids will be if we live exactly how we're ALREADY living (and
without any of the mythical detrimental effects they assume).

I was just thinking about unschooling and some discussions held at the
recent conference about the whole "unparenting" issue.
FREEDOM is only half of the whole unschooling equation.
MINDFULNESS (awareness) is the other essential half and freedom
without the mindfulness is basically anarchy. You really need both
for successful unschooling. I actually believe that if all you're
going to do is give kids loads of freedom without being present and
mindful, then traditional parenting is BETTER.

Once again, I love this list, I love sharing the unschooling lifestyle
with people irl and at conferences. But please remember, we are all
VOLUNTEERS and it gets old to hear about how lame the list is, or how
we're all so judgemental. If people don't like it, there are other
resources. Hell, anyone can start their own list for that matter.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elissa Jill Cleaveland

In her case, her kids have
done nothing but play video games and watch TV for 4 years, she is obviously
mindful of that and has tried to sway them onto other activities to no
avail.
**********
If she can't sway them, why not join in? I bet they would have read gaming magazines, I bet they would have gone to the traveling computer & game show, I bet they would have gladly attended or helped set up a LAN party, I bet they would have loved to attend a gaming convention, I bet they would have watched G4 the gaming channel on tv, I bet they would have done an awful lot of really cool stuff if Mom had stopped waiting for them to stop that interest and find something more important.

So, where would the happy medium be for her, how can she get her
kids out of their room without forcing her ideals/interests on them--still
giving them freedom and being mindful???
********
Isn't part of being a mindful unschooling parent accepting your kids Where they are? This sounds like an amazing passionate interest, WHY try to change it? Why should it be a happy medium for HER?

I think that issue is what is hard
for newbies---I know I had to deal with that with my boys, of course it was
for 2 months, not 4 years---but it certainly is scary nontheless!
***********
It really doesn't have to be scary. Would it be scary if your (general you ) child went out and spent 12 hours a day, every day for 3 months, at the barn with a horse? Would it be scary if your child suddenly found a deep interest in Jewish Orthodoxy and Hasidim and read everything they could find at the library for 4 months?

Elissa Jill
The music in me is a gift from the Universe.
My job is to care for it and use it well; I am its bearer, not its owner.
~Johnny Cash's Moma

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 6/2/06, marsaili <marsaili@...> wrote:
>
> Well, in a recent thread a panicked mother was accused of being
> neglectful---which I was totally surprised to see since she obviously was
> NOT, especially since she came here for help. In her case, her kids have
> done nothing but play video games and watch TV for 4 years, she is
> obviously
> mindful of that and has tried to sway them onto other activities to no
> avail.


I never got that from her message. What I got was that she was waiting for
*them* to start living for them to make the first move. She sat for FOUR
YEARS waiting for them to become engaged in something. Nowhere did she show
that she had been actively involving them in her life or that she was doing
any living herself. She said she sat there and watched her children become
fat and unhealthy. Yes; that is neglectful. She was truly "unparenting"
something I would not say that Ren, Pam, Kelly, Rue or even myself are doing
even though we are living unschooled lives.


--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marji

At 09:20 6/2/2006, you wrote:
>...In her case, her kids have
>done nothing but play video games and watch TV for 4 years... where
>would the happy medium be for her, how can she get her
>kids out of their room without forcing her ideals/interests on them--still
>giving them freedom and being mindful??? ...it certainly is scary nontheless!

If the truly generous volunteers on this list can help that mom see
how she can embrace her kids' passions rather help her figure out how
to "sway" them away from their passions ~~ in my mind ~~ that would
supporting her to move towards unschooling. That's the purpose of
this list, as I understand it.

If I remember correctly, she was writing that her kids did not take
to unschooling because they were not interested in much else than
gaming and TV watching. But, it seemed to me that it may have been
more about her expectations than anything.

I think in order for unschooling to work we have to accept and love
our kids as they are, not as we wish them to be! When we can accept
them just as they are, we give them the freedom to become who they
are! It's glorious to be part of, and it's so easy to stifle our
kids with only our expectations, even if we don't say a thing!

I'm telling you, if people can trust this process, they will see
amazing things unfold, just like the peonies in my yard!!

Warning, Folks: I feel another flower analogy coming on!!!!

So, we have a couple of peonies right by our front door, and when
they're first growing they put out these round buds that open up to
be these giant boisterous flowers that have an amazing aroma. When
the buds are first opening, they really look too small to produce
that kind of a flower and after the flower opens fully, you have to
wonder how on earth all that flower could have come from that tiny,
little bud. Of course, if you try to interfere 'cause you think it's
not going well and it needs your help, you ruin the whole
process. But, if you can just trust the flower to do what it's
supposed to do, you get rewarded with this incredible blossom!!

Interestingly, our peonies open later than our neighbors' do. I
guess they have their own time schedule, but eventually they do
open. Also, sometimes those blossoms are so big and heavy that we
put a stake in the ground close by to support them. But, we never
tell 'em what to do or when to do it! They just know!

End of analogy.


_.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._

Marji
<http://www.gaiawolf.org/>GaiaWolf
<http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/GaiaWolf/>Join the GaiaWolf Mailing List


"The animals of this world exist for their own reasons. They were
not made for humans any more than blacks were made for whites or
women created for men."
~Alice Walker
_.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mara

Hello everyone,
my heart is just bursting with things to say -
I joined this list maybe about a month ago when I
started reading more about unschooling and really
liking it, but have not posted here yet.
So, here is an introduction first:
I have 4 sons (18, 15,4 and 1). The oldest two are
stepchildren. The 15 y.o., Jacob, left school
the end of 7th grade until 8th, generally played video
games all year and had frequent run-ins with his Dad
about trying to follow a curriculum which he wanted
him to do to try to meet requirements - all that was a
bit frustrating. So he went back to highschool.
Meanwhile I found out about unschooling and reading
every back issue of Life Learning online - One issue I
got in the mail had a great article about a young girl
leaving highschool, which I gave to my stepson, plus I
found the Teenage liberation handbook and gave both of
those to him to read, since I could see he was not
enjoying highschool anymore either -
He said that is exactly how he felt and stayed home
from school to read the book, than we brainstormed how
to get him home ASAP where he now is - happily
unschooling. Unschooling is so right for him i see the
changes already, in his happiness and calmness and
quietly going about finding out things about the world
.
I thought I was already unschooling my 4 y.o. but when
I joined this email list I learned so much more in
such a short time already I am very grateful to all of
you.
So when I heard about the conference I had to go.
one of the biggest issues I had with the unschooling
was that I did not know too many people doing this (2
families total, one who is moving away, one I just met
recently and got to know better at the conference - hi
Cyndi). My ds just loves to find other children to
play with and would like to make some friends. We
often go places where we find other kids, but I have
found that I get extreemely stressful around those
situations. The kids are often rude (no, you can't
play with us, we don't know you), or ' if you do that
(whatever?) I'll kil you, or the parents
(babysitters) have this horrible way of parenting that
just makes me cringe everytime I see it. Like
time-outs, threats to say 'sorry', counting to 3 as if
the world is going to blow up when they reach that
number ( don't know what that is all about...?).
So, when we got to the conference my son was in
absolute bliss, the children there were more than
willing to play, involve him, be respectful and
engaging, and when someone accidentaly hurt another in
some wild playing, they would go over to that child
and say they were truly sorry, they did not meant to
hurt them. I missed pretty much all of the talks
because of my two little ones, but just being there
was so worth it, even just to see my ds beaming and
having so much fun and meating all those other
wonderfully free children.
I also enjoyed meeting other parents and staying up
talking until 12:30 am on saturday (Joanne, Lucian
just LOVED playing with your daughters and is asking
if he will see them again).
I did hear bits and pieces of talks from Ren and Kelly
and even those bits got me thinking more -
Contrary to my sons I was still too shy to go up to
all the people I would have loved to have talked to,
but I certainly know this won't be my last conference
and I am very happy that I can still talk to you now
and ask all those questions that have been coming up.
Already, being on the list and going to the conference
i have been fine-tuning my parenting, implementing
total freedom and choice in food, tv and bedtime and,
inspired by Whole life unschooling, also took up
playing the saxophone again and learning another
language.
Thank you so much to all of you who run this list and
who organized and ran the conference, I believe you
are doing a great service to humanity and civilisation
and have already changed our life for the better.
The conference also opened up good talks to my dh ( we
are doing WHAT with out children? So unschooling is
not just doing nothing at all?) as well as with my
father who was agressively negative about
homeschooling. For the first time (after the
conference) we had a very positive talk about things
and as I compared the schooled kids to the unschooled
and as he remembered what i was like before I entered
school - volunteering at the circus to ride the
elephant at age 4 - and after I entered school - being
totally shocked in a room full of 40 other kids and
becoming very shy and unsure of myself for a long
time.
At the end of our talk he was already looking up books
about Holt in German, and telling me of a few other
German authors that had similar ideas - he has after
all written books on education and Janusz Korzak and
is now realizing a LOT of things -
Anyways, sorry I ramble on. I just was still so
excited about it all and look forward to asking
questions and reading your wonderful comments on this
list - and another great big THANK YOU!
Love and virtual hugs to you all -
Mara



__________________________________________________
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Melissa

Thanks Ren, for yet another great post (one might even say mindful)
about parenting.

One of the things I've noticed is that every family has a different
idea of mindfulness, as well as freedom. I'm getting tired of moms
IRL saying "Wow, you are soooo laid back." To me, it sounds like an
indictment because I'm not micromanaging the children. But it took me
a lot of work to get to the point where I could trust my children's
capabilities and let them live! My oldest was so screwed on the
parenting...talk about being overprotective (between that and his
natural caution we caused a lot of issues that we're just now undoing)

What I'm seeing with those moms is that they feel like if they aren't
micromanaging that they are being bad parents. How did that happen?
How did we go from a society where kids had freedom to explore all
day to one where parents are telling children what and how to play on
the monkey bars? If kids get the chance to play at the park between
myriad lessons and groups....I've also gotten a lot of parents IRL
who sigh theatrically and complain about all the stuff they are doing
AND THE KIDS FIGHT EVERY STEP of the way. At the same time, the
indictment "You are *so* lucky, Melissa, that you don't have to do
that." What one friend told me (and my parents too) was that I'm
doing my kids a grave disservice by not forcing them into a few
activities. I've offered, we do stuff on our own, but no one really
has that desire right now.

And now I'm off on my own vent. My stepmom was giving me a hard time
and I'm still recovering. I gave as good as I got, but it stressed me
out, and I resent having to defend anything. Then on two different
groups this week I've had to read people who are saying that my
lifestyle is inappropriate. SIgh....
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose

share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma



On Jun 2, 2006, at 7:37 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
>
> I was just thinking about unschooling and some discussions held at the
> recent conference about the whole "unparenting" issue.
> FREEDOM is only half of the whole unschooling equation.
> MINDFULNESS (awareness) is the other essential half and freedom
> without the mindfulness is basically anarchy. You really need both
> for successful unschooling. I actually believe that if all you're
> going to do is give kids loads of freedom without being present and
> mindful, then traditional parenting is BETTER.

Elissa Jill Cleaveland

Would it be scary if your child suddenly found a deep interest in Jewish Orthodoxy and Hasidim and read everything they could find at the library for 4 months?
*************
I want to clarify the above to read:
Would it be scary if your child suddenly found a deep interest in Jewish Orthodoxy and Hasidim and read everything they could find at the library for 4 months just because they were interested in another path, without a life changing goal?
Elissa Jill
The music in me is a gift from the Universe.
My job is to care for it and use it well; I am its bearer, not its owner.
~Johnny Cash's Moma

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 2, 2006, at 6:20 AM, marsaili wrote:

> Well, in a recent thread a panicked mother was accused of being
> neglectful---which I was totally surprised to see since she
> obviously was
> NOT, especially since she came here for help.

Big assumption that she wasn't neglectful. I think there are people
who think unschooling means being hands-off parents, "letting the
kids do what they want" gets interpreted as parents leaving them
"alone" to do what they want. It is very possible that this person
had that erroneous impression of unschooling - in which case, she
could claim to have been unschooling for the past four years while
doing nothing to support her kids interests and doing nothing to
create a rich and stimulating environment for them.

> In her case, her kids have done nothing but play video games and
> watch TV for 4 years,

First of all - anybody who says that is almost certainly exaggerating
and so is starting out on shaky, somewhat dishonest, ground. I bet
her kids did LOTS of other things - I bet they ate food, went places,
etc. What people mean when they say that is almost always that the
kids LOVE to play videogames and watch tv and do way more of it than
the parent is comfortable with and that the parent thought that, if
they were left alone, the kids would eventually come to see
videogames and tv the same way the parent does, as less-than-
worthwhile activities.

AND - "playing vidoegames" is not one "thing." Neither is watching
tv. An involved unschooling mom would be talking about WHAT the kids
were playing and watching - would see the playing and watching as
involving many varied activities. Just yesterday I posted somewhere
about my 18 year old playing "The SIMS" for many hours over the
previous couple of days. Playing "The SIMS" is not at all the same as
playing "Halo," or "Guild Wars" or "World of Warcraft" or "Neopets,"
etc. Heck, even saying someone was playing, "Neopets," doesn't
describe what they were doing - it involves all kinds of different
games - logic puzzles, word games, as well as interpersonal
activities and designing and taking care of pets and on and on.


> she is obviously mindful of that and has tried to sway them onto
> other activities to no
> avail.

So - does an unschooling parent do that? Try to "sway them onto other
activities?" I haven't ever thought of that as my role. What I do,
instead, is support the activities they ARE interested in pursuing,
while making sure that their lives include exposure to many
interesting experiences and options. I'm not trying to "sway them
away" from what they are interested in, I AM always expanding our
world to allow them to have as many possibilities in their lives as I
can.

> So, where would the happy medium be for her, how can she get her
> kids out of their room without forcing her ideals/interests on
> them--still
> giving them freedom and being mindful???

Can't do that. If her goal is to force them off the computer and away
from the tv, she'll create resistance or apathy - those are always
the net result of coercion - people either resist (passively or
actively) or they give up and submit to authority.

> I think that issue is what is hard for newbies---I know I had to
> deal with that with my boys, of course it was
> for 2 months, not 4 years---but it certainly is scary nontheless!

Did you eventually force them away from the computer and tv? Is that
what you mean to be advocating?

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

HABIB OWENS

Hello,

I am very new to unschooling and homeschooling and I have been reading the post lately and decided to say something. I don't post often because I know that when you communicate there is the person giving the information and teh person receiving the information. When you receive information unless you are face to face you can give a tone to the information based on your feelings at the time of reading the information but I have come to some great realizations from the posts about who I am and how I relate to my three children. I had attended several conferences and listened to many presenters on unschooling before I made the decision to unschool my children and what I learned was that I had to deal with all my concerns and insecurities before I could let go of schooly things and just live and learn with my children and the changes that I see in my children are unbelievable. My husband, my mom and my three sisters are impressed by what they see in my children and I can
not say enough that I know when I started to listen and trust my children and they know that then our relationships has changed so much. I say all this to say to anyone who has be offended or bothered by what was posted by those who are not new to unschooling before you choose to be hurt maybe look at why you feel that way and if there is something that is personal maybe look at that and do what you need to do for you. I hope i did not offend anyone for that truely was not my intent but I needed to say that. Thanks for reading.

Tywane

The way for a person to rise is to improve themselves every way they can, never suspecting that anybody wishes to hinder them. - Abraham Lincoln -


----- Original Message ----
From: Melissa <autismhelp@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, June 2, 2006 10:21:13 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] hating homeschooling and unparenting

Thanks Ren, for yet another great post (one might even say mindful)
about parenting.

One of the things I've noticed is that every family has a different
idea of mindfulness, as well as freedom. I'm getting tired of moms
IRL saying "Wow, you are soooo laid back." To me, it sounds like an
indictment because I'm not micromanaging the children. But it took me
a lot of work to get to the point where I could trust my children's
capabilities and let them live! My oldest was so screwed on the
parenting...talk about being overprotective (between that and his
natural caution we caused a lot of issues that we're just now undoing)

What I'm seeing with those moms is that they feel like if they aren't
micromanaging that they are being bad parents. How did that happen?
How did we go from a society where kids had freedom to explore all
day to one where parents are telling children what and how to play on
the monkey bars? If kids get the chance to play at the park between
myriad lessons and groups....I've also gotten a lot of parents IRL
who sigh theatrically and complain about all the stuff they are doing
AND THE KIDS FIGHT EVERY STEP of the way. At the same time, the
indictment "You are *so* lucky, Melissa, that you don't have to do
that." What one friend told me (and my parents too) was that I'm
doing my kids a grave disservice by not forcing them into a few
activities. I've offered, we do stuff on our own, but no one really
has that desire right now.

And now I'm off on my own vent. My stepmom was giving me a hard time
and I'm still recovering. I gave as good as I got, but it stressed me
out, and I resent having to defend anything. Then on two different
groups this week I've had to read people who are saying that my
lifestyle is inappropriate. SIgh....
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose

share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma



On Jun 2, 2006, at 7:37 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
>
> I was just thinking about unschooling and some discussions held at the
> recent conference about the whole "unparenting" issue.
> FREEDOM is only half of the whole unschooling equation.
> MINDFULNESS (awareness) is the other essential half and freedom
> without the mindfulness is basically anarchy. You really need both
> for successful unschooling. I actually believe that if all you're
> going to do is give kids loads of freedom without being present and
> mindful, then traditional parenting is BETTER.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

" I just hate to see when a mother comes
here, panicked and scared and she's accused of being neglectful to her
kids---which did happen in a recent thread. "

WEeelllll.....
I didn't see it that way at all.

I called her out on the whole "four years of watching and waiting"
thing. I said that IF a parent thought something was detrimental to
their children and simply stood by and watched, then THAT would be
neglect. I stand by that.

She claimed her children were unhealthy. Would you stand by and watch
your child be unhealthy, not learning (according to her, though I know
they had to be learning because they were breathing!!) and just WAIT???

Unschooling isn't about ignoring our fears, it's about openly
examining them and finding out whether there is any validity to them!:)

It's about being WITH our children, entering into their passions and
HONORING those passions. It's not exactly honoring a passion to stand
by and hope they'll get involved in something else for FOUR years!!
Yikes to the tenth power.

If I saw my children were unhealthy and not learning, I'd be VERY
concerned. What I see in that situation is a mother that is not
honoring their interests, a parent that isn't really offering up
viable alternatives that are at least as fun as the video games.
What I hear is a lot of fear and NOT anything about unschooling.

Yes, it's neglect to watch your child be unhealthy for four years. But
if she'd stopped waiting and simply started DOING and being WITH them,
I bet she'd see they were actually learning and growing quite beautifully.

Unschooling is providing a rich and interesting environment for ALL
family members. It's about pursuing your own passions and truly
honoring each person's uniqueness.
It's about meeting the child where they are TODAY, not who you hope
they'll become.

I really don't believe that four different children would do NOTHING
else for four years in a rich and stimulating environment. Sorry,
don't buy it. Prove it to me.:)

I have a full-time gamer, so I'm not doubting the time spent on video
games by some people. I have four children that all LOVE video games,
but I've never seen any of them (other than Trevor) go for an entire
day without doing anything else. Even my full-time video gamer is more
than willing to join us if the activity is interesting enough to him!
I can see a ton of learning gained from his very intense interest in
this form of entertainment.

Anyone doubting the amazing power of video games for learning, please
read "A Whole New Mind" by Danielle Pink. AMAZING book, all backed
with solid research.

Anyhoo, if a person wants to come on here and tell me they waited four
years and several children chose NOTHING but tv and video games, I'm
not going to believe them until they qualify the information with some
good dialogue. She's not going to do that obviously, because I doubt
it's true and even if it was, it just proves she was NOT unschooling.

That would be fine if she wanted to GET to unschooling and try to
understand. But she was only here to tell us it couldn't work.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

"The conference also opened up good talks to my dh ( we
are doing WHAT with out children? So unschooling is
not just doing nothing at all?) as well as with my
father who was agressively negative about
homeschooling."

This is GREAT Mara!! Really wonderful.
I wish I'd had a chance to chat with you at the conference. Next time,
come up and say hello ok?:) No fear.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

[email protected]

>>Well, in a recent thread a panicked mother was accused of being neglectful---which I was totally surprised to see since she obviously was NOT, especially since she came here for help. In her case, her kids have done nothing but play video games and watch TV for 4 years, she is obviously mindful of that and has tried to sway them onto other activities to no avail. >>

I know I posted about that situation. I said then and I'll repeat now that I find it hard to believe the claim of *no* activity outside of TV and video games for four years. I did not accuse the mom of being neglectful, but I did ask her to reexamine her claim of what's been going on for those four years for both parents and children. Unless I missed it, I haven't gotten a response and therefore have been able to continue looking at her situation.

--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "marsaili" <marsaili@...>

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: marsaili <marsaili@...>

Well, in a recent thread a panicked mother was accused of being
neglectful---which I was totally surprised to see since she obviously
was
NOT, especially since she came here for help.

-=-=-=-


I disagree. I think she was, indeed, neglectful. I don't know why she
came here for help.

--=-=-=-

In her case, her kids have
done nothing but play video games and watch TV for 4 years, she is
obviously
mindful of that and has tried to sway them onto other activities to no
avail.

-=-=-=-=-

You're assuming she was being truthful. I *know* she wasn't! <g>

No one *only* plays video games and watches TV for four years. Her
kids did other things, but they did these two too much for her liking.
She wasn't obviously mindful, as she would have 1) made the connection
that the kids were *actually* learning while playing and watching and
2) joined in on their games and viewing, and 3) told us what all else
she had strewn in their paths. And trying to sway them into other
activities is NOT an act of mindfulness or unschooling.

-=-=-=--

So, where would the happy medium be for her,

-=-=-=

I'm afraid that's not possible right now, since she left. <g> Plus,
she didn't really want to hear that what she was doing wasn't
unschooling. She wanted us to hold her and and tell her she was doing
fine---that arbitrary limits and forced feeding is A-OK.

-=-=-=-

how can she get her
kids out of their room without forcing her ideals/interests on
them--still
giving them freedom and being mindful???

-=-=-=-

And the reason to get the kids out of their room is....? I think it's
safe in there for them I think they've decided that she's not
trustworthy. She hasn't given them freedom OR been mindful. I'd say
THAT would be a good place to start! <g>

-=-=-=-

I think that issue is what is hard
for newbies---I know I had to deal with that with my boys, of course
it was
for 2 months, not 4 years---but it certainly is scary nontheless!

-=-=-=-=-

So you gave up the arbitrary limits, and your kids found other
interests as well as video games and TV?

See where the four year thang gets wacky? Didn't happen the way she
was leading us to believe.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith

marsaili

> I think that issue is what is hard for newbies---I know I had to
> deal with that with my boys, of course it was
> for 2 months, not 4 years---but it certainly is scary nontheless!

>Did you eventually force them away from the computer and tv? Is that
what you mean to be advocating?

-pam<

Absolutely NOT and what gives you any idea that I would advocate that
tactic? I accepted the fact that these are their interests and I don't
interfere with their desire to do these things. I do try to suggest other
things we can do occasionally---things they ARE interested in---I only
suggest activities they would be interested in, if they show no interest, we
don't do it---it's that simple. This was about another mother's possible
neglect of her children (which I still continue to disagree with
you---calling someone dishonest because they don't spend 3 hours to lay out
everything that has occurred in her household over the last 4 year is just
plain wrong) so please do not go and try to make this an issue about ME
because I was expressing something I was nervous about when I started
unschooling.

Geez!

Leslie:-)


_____

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pamela Sorooshian
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 1:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] hating homeschooling and unparenting



On Jun 2, 2006, at 6:20 AM, marsaili wrote:

> Well, in a recent thread a panicked mother was accused of being
> neglectful---which I was totally surprised to see since she
> obviously was
> NOT, especially since she came here for help.

Big assumption that she wasn't neglectful. I think there are people
who think unschooling means being hands-off parents, "letting the
kids do what they want" gets interpreted as parents leaving them
"alone" to do what they want. It is very possible that this person
had that erroneous impression of unschooling - in which case, she
could claim to have been unschooling for the past four years while
doing nothing to support her kids interests and doing nothing to
create a rich and stimulating environment for them.

> In her case, her kids have done nothing but play video games and
> watch TV for 4 years,

First of all - anybody who says that is almost certainly exaggerating
and so is starting out on shaky, somewhat dishonest, ground. I bet
her kids did LOTS of other things - I bet they ate food, went places,
etc. What people mean when they say that is almost always that the
kids LOVE to play videogames and watch tv and do way more of it than
the parent is comfortable with and that the parent thought that, if
they were left alone, the kids would eventually come to see
videogames and tv the same way the parent does, as less-than-
worthwhile activities.

AND - "playing vidoegames" is not one "thing." Neither is watching
tv. An involved unschooling mom would be talking about WHAT the kids
were playing and watching - would see the playing and watching as
involving many varied activities. Just yesterday I posted somewhere
about my 18 year old playing "The SIMS" for many hours over the
previous couple of days. Playing "The SIMS" is not at all the same as
playing "Halo," or "Guild Wars" or "World of Warcraft" or "Neopets,"
etc. Heck, even saying someone was playing, "Neopets," doesn't
describe what they were doing - it involves all kinds of different
games - logic puzzles, word games, as well as interpersonal
activities and designing and taking care of pets and on and on.


> she is obviously mindful of that and has tried to sway them onto
> other activities to no
> avail.

So - does an unschooling parent do that? Try to "sway them onto other
activities?" I haven't ever thought of that as my role. What I do,
instead, is support the activities they ARE interested in pursuing,
while making sure that their lives include exposure to many
interesting experiences and options. I'm not trying to "sway them
away" from what they are interested in, I AM always expanding our
world to allow them to have as many possibilities in their lives as I
can.

> So, where would the happy medium be for her, how can she get her
> kids out of their room without forcing her ideals/interests on
> them--still
> giving them freedom and being mindful???

Can't do that. If her goal is to force them off the computer and away
from the tv, she'll create resistance or apathy - those are always
the net result of coercion - people either resist (passively or
actively) or they give up and submit to authority.

> I think that issue is what is hard for newbies---I know I had to
> deal with that with my boys, of course it was
> for 2 months, not 4 years---but it certainly is scary nontheless!

Did you eventually force them away from the computer and tv? Is that
what you mean to be advocating?

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: HABIB OWENS <htowens35@...>

I had attended
several conferences and listened to many presenters on unschooling
before I made
the decision to unschool my children and what I learned was that I had
to deal
with all my concerns and insecurities before I could let go of schooly
things
and just live and learn with my children and the changes that I see in
my
children are unbelievable.

-=-=-=-

Oh, Tywane! I'm glad it worked out for you, but if we all waited until
we'd dealt with of all our concerns and insecurities, we'd NEVER get to
unschooling!

Fake it 'til you make it---at least you're moving in the right
direction!!!

-=-=-=-=-

My husband, my mom and my three sisters are
impressed by what they see in my children and I can
not say enough that I know when I started to listen and trust my
children and
they know that then our relationships has changed so much.

-=-=-=-=-

That listening and trusting is powerful stuff! <bwg>

-=-=-=-

I say all this to say
to anyone who has be offended or bothered by what was posted by those
who are
not new to unschooling before you choose to be hurt maybe look at why
you feel
that way and if there is something that is personal maybe look at that
and do
what you need to do for you.

-=-=-=-=-

I think it's *always* a good idea to look at why we feel insulted or
hurt or disrespected or ...and analyze *why* we feel like that.

It's often NOT the person we're directing our anger/hurt at, but at
something deeper inside. Unschooling and peaceful parenting mean
looking deep inside ourselves to ponder *why* we feel/act/react the way
we do.

It ain't always pretty!


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith

marsaili

I think that issue is what is hard
for newbies---I know I had to deal with that with my boys, of course
it was
for 2 months, not 4 years---but it certainly is scary nontheless!

-=-=-=-=-

So you gave up the arbitrary limits, and your kids found other
interests as well as video games and TV?

See where the four year thang gets wacky? Didn't happen the way she
was leading us to believe.


~Kelly

Yes, exactly! I don't impose limits on anything anymore---if I feel
something isn't "right" (for lack of a better word, right isn't exactly
what I mean), we talk about it and I listen to how they feel and what they
need/want and we go from there. Once I backed off, they started doing other
things on their own---and I've been very pleasantly surprised to see them
play and use their imagination in ways they really have done since they
started school! It's been a beautiful change, which I'm sure will just
continue to get even better, especially since I've been playing with them
and found the simple joys and the fun of being a kid again---with my kids.

Leslie:-)

_____



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jlh44music

<starsuncloud@...> wrote:

> I wish I'd had a chance to chat with you at the conference. Next
time, come up and say hello ok?:) No fear.>>

A few times when I was sitting in the audience, I had the urge to
stand up and say "Hi! It's Jann! I'd love to meet you guys!" I
felt funny going around looked at everyone's chest, trying to read
name tags!
Jann

[email protected]

>>Warning, Folks: I feel another flower analogy coming on!!!!>>

I'm blogging that one Marji! With proper credit of course. :o)

--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh

camden

Thats so funny Jann. Thats why dh wouldn't read the tags, he said he didn't
want anyone to think he was checking out anyone's "assests". LOL , men think
so differently sometimes ;)
Carol


>I felt funny going around looked at everyone's chest, trying to read
> name tags!
> Jann
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 2, 2006, at 2:27 PM, marsaili wrote:

>> I think that issue is what is hard for newbies---I know I had to
>> deal with that with my boys, of course it was
>> for 2 months, not 4 years---but it certainly is scary nontheless!
>
>> Did you eventually force them away from the computer and tv? Is that
> what you mean to be advocating?
>

> Absolutely NOT and what gives you any idea that I would advocate that
> tactic?

Because that is what you were defending - someone who was trying to
find a way to force her kids away from something they apparently
loved, since, according to her, that was "all" they were doing for 4
years. You were defending her. You said you'd had to "deal with that"
with your kids.

I didn't say you DID mean to advocate it, by the way. I asked you if
that is what you did and what you meant. I asked the question because
it wasn't clear from your post if you meant that you had successfully
done (in just a few months) what she hadn't been able to do in four
years.

Please read questions as questions, not as attacks.

In her case, her kids have done nothing but play video games and
watch TV for 4 years, she is obviously
mindful of that and has tried to sway them onto other activities to
no avail. So, where would the happy medium be for her, how can she
get her kids out of their room without forcing her ideals/interests
on them--still giving them freedom and being mindful??? I think that
issue is what is hard for newbies---I know I had to deal with that
with my boys, of course it was for 2 months, not 4 years---but it
certainly is scary nontheless!
>>

The above is what you said. My point is that it is NOT mindful
parenting, not unschooling, to try to sway them to other activities,
away from what they love. That is not what I would suggest - is that
what you are advocating? (a question - not an attack) The advice I'd
have given her would have been to embrace and engage and expand -
find ways to get involved, show respect and honor their choices, and
expand on their activities, to help them see connections all over the
place, but not to try to lure them away because you think their
choices are bad ones.

-=pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 2, 2006, at 2:43 PM, jlh44music wrote:

> I
> felt funny going around looked at everyone's chest, trying to read
> name tags!

Yeah - that's a problem - drives me nuts because I have a bad memory
for people's faces AND my eyesight isn't great.
We need to have giant large-print somethings - shirts? Visors?
Hats? Armbands? Big HUGE name tags? Tatoos? <g>

-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~>>Warning, Folks: I feel another flower analogy coming on!!!!>>

I'm blogging that one Marji! With proper credit of course. :o)~

Yes, that was awesome Marji. I adore analogies.:)

It reminded me a bit of the baby parrot analogy that Sandy Winn posted
here a while back.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

" shirts? Visors?
Hats? Armbands? Big HUGE name tags? Tatoos? <g>"

Well, you know which one of those I'LL vote for.:)

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

marji

At 20:49 6/2/2006, you wrote:
>" shirts? Visors?
>Hats? Armbands? Big HUGE name tags? Tatoos? <g>"
>
>Well, you know which one of those I'LL vote for.:)
>
>Ren
>learninginfreedom.com


Yeah! A great big tattoo . . . on the forehead!! That'd work!! <g>


~Marji (who really oughta be working, but that's sooo boring, and
this is sooo much fun!)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>

" shirts? Visors?
Hats? Armbands? Big HUGE name tags? Tatoos? <g>"

Well, you know which one of those I'LL vote for.:)

Ren

-=-=-=-

For those of you who don't know: Ren is a fashion hound---so she'd go
for *anything* that means more clothes.

And last year after the Live and Learn Unschooling Conference (see,
Danielle?---it comes in handy all the time! <g>), Ren and Rue's
husband, Jon, got tattoos together in Massachusetts.

Ren might balk at the idea of really HUGE name tags. <g>


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith

jlh44music

> Thats so funny Jann. Thats why dh wouldn't read the tags, he said
he didn't want anyone to think he was checking out anyone's "assests".
LOL , men think so differently sometimes ;)>

Yeah, that would be my husband!
Jann

jlh44music

> " shirts? Visors? Hats? Armbands? Big HUGE name tags? Tatoos? <g>"
>
> Well, you know which one of those I'LL vote for.:)

I thought you'd say HATS - really BIG hats!
Jann

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Mara <mamadeluz@...>

This whole post was so sweet and encouraging!

-=-=-==-

The conference also opened up good talks to my dh ( we
are doing WHAT with out children? So unschooling is
not just doing nothing at all?)

-=-=-=-=-

Hard to get past---that "not just doing nothing at all" bit, huh? <g>

-=-=-=-=-

as well as with my father who was agressively negative about
homeschooling.

-=-=-=-=-

Yeah, but homeschooling in general is illegal in Germany. AND our
school system here is based on the old Prussian model. Hard for a
German to shed!

-=-=-=-=-

For the first time (after the
conference) we had a very positive talk about things
and as I compared the schooled kids to the unschooled
and as he remembered what i was like before I entered
school - volunteering at the circus to ride the
elephant at age 4 - and after I entered school - being
totally shocked in a room full of 40 other kids and
becoming very shy and unsure of myself for a long
time.
At the end of our talk he was already looking up books
about Holt in German, and telling me of a few other
German authors that had similar ideas - he has after
all written books on education and Janusz Korzak and
is now realizing a LOT of things -

-=-=-=-

This is HUGE for a German!

There is also an unschooling list in Germany. Anyone have it handy so
that we can pass it along?

-=-=-=-=-

Anyways, sorry I ramble on. I just was still so
excited about it all and look forward to asking
questions and reading your wonderful comments on this
list - and another great big THANK YOU!
Love and virtual hugs to you all -
Mara
-=-=-=-=-

It was really nice to talk with you, Mara. I'm glad it was such a
positive experience for you all!


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith