Melinda

> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:18:08 -0000
> From: "Nanci Kuykendall (Ingah)"
> <aisliin@...>
> Subject: Camp Fire USA
>
> I have heard both good and bad things about Camp
> Fire USA. I decided
> to do a little first hand research of my own and
> find out what they
> were all about. So I have been in touch with the
> Executive Director
> of our local Council, to get more information. In
> the course of our
> correspondence, he sent me some pages from the
> Leader Guide. Most of
> it looked pretty good, but I was given pause by
> certain parts of it.
> I thought I would share about my concerns here and
> get some feedback
> from all of you, and also ask for experiences of
> those who have been
> involved with Camp Fire, before I discuss this with
> my Camp Fire
> contact.
>
> The Section that gave me pause is titled: Camp Fire
> USA Builds
> Developmental Assets
>
> It begins by talking about the results and findings
> of a study done
> by the Search Institute, in the 1990s, which
> identified asset
> building as a focus for youth development instead of
> problem
> solving. OK, I can get with that, being as I see
> prevention as
> better than bandages in general. They go on to say
> that they have
> identified 14 assets in the Camp Fire program that
> they believe help
> youth to develop. OK, so they are earmarking
> positives in their
> program, that's ok.
>
> But the next part starts to get creepy, and reads
> like a recipe for
> cooking up wonderful adults, as though it's a fool
> proof plan. Here
> are the 14 assets:
>
> -Young Person has empathy, sensitivity and
> friendship
> -Young person has knowledge of and comfort with
> people of different
> cultural/racial/ethnic backgrounds
> (ok, so far so good)
> -Young person serves the community 1 or more hours
> per week
> (whoa, what does this mean? What counts as
> community service? Is
> the age of the child considered? I think community
> service is a
> great thing and I encourage it, but I don't like
> being involved in a
> program where my child is REQUIRED to do it to meet
> some objective
> set by the group.)
>
> -Young person receives support from 3 or more
> non-parent adults
> (ok, that sounds good)
> -Young person spends 3 or more hours per week in
> lessons or practice
> in music, theater or other arts
> (whoa again, mandatory minimum time duration on
> arts? What counts
> according to them? What if my child is not
> classically artistic, or
> goes through a phase where they are not?)
>
> -Young person spends 3 or more hours per week in
> sports, clubs, and
> organizations at school or in the community
> (whoa again! Mandatory involvement in hobbies and
> recreational
> sports? If they said, young person is encouraged to
> do this or that,
> ok. If they said they feel it is important, ok.
> But just saying
> that they spend X amount of hours per week is so
> arbitrary and
> controlling to me.)
>
> -Young person is out with friends with "nothing
> special to do" two or
> fewer nights per week.
> (What?? Does that mean they think all their time
> should be planned
> and scheduled, even for teenagers? Does that mean
> we are not
> supposed to trust our children's judgement in
> general about how they
> spend their time?)
>
> The rest sounds good
> -Young person can resist negative peer pressure and
> dangerous
> situations
> -Young person seeks to resolve conflict nonviolently
> -Young person knows how to plan ahead and make
> choices
> -Young person feels that he or she "has control over
> things that
> happen to me."
> -Young person reports having high self esteem.
> -Young person reports that "my life has a purpose."
> -Young person is optimistic about his or her
> personal future
>
> But then this "All of the Camp Fire USA's curricula
> are outcome
> based. Forty Camp Fire outcomes were identified to
> develop these
> assets. These outcomes guide all projects, programs
> and
> recognitions. The outcomes are in the appendix and
> referenced
> throughout the grade level program books. This
> makes it easy to know
> if you are using the Camp Fire activities and
> projects as designed,
> the children will be experiencing the outcomes that
> will make them
> caring, confident youth and future leaders."
>
> As a passionate Unschooler/Natural Learner how many
> ways can I say
> ick? Curricula? Grade levels? Outcome based? Am I
> just looking at
> this the wrong way or not understanding what they
> are trying to say?
>
> Elsewhere in the pages I received, it says "When
> children and youth
> join Camp Fire, they start at the level appropriate
> to their grade."
> Is this program totally geared toward the
> institutional schooling
> system, and would we be totally out of place? I
> don't really want to
> separate my children out into narrow band age
> groups. I don't think
> it is socially good for them. I am one of those who
> is of the
> opinion that institutional schooling is
> intrinsically bad for the
> human mind and spirit, and that the institutional
> educational model
> can never be made healthy enough to be effective or
> positive.
>
> After I read the pages to my husband, he said "Well
> I have heard
> enough. YUCK!"
>
> I have Unschooling friends with a teenager who refer
> to their
> experiences with "the Cult of Camp Fire" with a
> shudder. Perhaps
> that was just their local group or council, or is
> that indicative of
> the general atmosphere?
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Nanci K.
>
>

Dear Nanci,

I think that groups use a schoolish paradigm because
they don't have anything else to refer to.

It has become so pervasive in our society. You can't
go anywhere without being exposed to that "kids are
inferior and need to be controlled" approach. Whip
them into shape. Etc....

The brain washing most received in institutional
school was thorough and worked.

I like to think that the rest of the community being
exposed to UNschoolers is a breath of fresh air for
them and maybe, in some small way, we can open up
their box just a crack and they'll get at least a
glimmer of light that may make them want more. (Yes,
ever the Optimist.)


I had a conversation with a Campfire USA leader from
TN,(I think), at the Live and Learn UNschooling
conference in Columbia.

I met so many people that I am having trouble
remembering her name, but I will check the
registration list unless someone here maybe remembers
and can supply it. She has 3 sons and began as a
"backup" leader in the first group in her state. The
other 2 leaders moved and now she is the leader. (It
does seem to work out that way ... ;*)

Anyway, she was telling me about the ways that it
differs from Boy Scouts. I mentioned that my sons had
a homeschool friend whose dad is an Eagle scout and is
a leader, but that I had talked it over with my sons
and explained that this is a club that discriminates
based on sexual orientation,(i.e. NO [known] gays),
and that I didn't feel good about supporting an
organization that kicked out or kept out members based
on that criteria. My sons agreed that that was not
acceptable. They were lukewarm on the idea of scouts
to begin with so it was dropped without any
unhappiness.

(In discussing it with my friend, the leader's wife,
she assured me that ALL boys were welcomed in her
husband's group. I expressed that I appreciated that
he was a good guy, but that his organization didn't
back up his philosophy and that intolerance and
discrimination are therefore implicit in their
operation.)

The Campfire USA leader indicated to me that there is
not the same type of pseudo-religious approach
involved. Also, the para-military procedures aren't
present. When the children earn badges, they may
place them wherever they choose. It is a much more
informal approach toward earning them as well. She
was telling me that they often found that they had met
the criteria for a badge, would document it and
receive it. As compared to the "nothing in the past
counts" approach.

I'll check with Kelly and see if I can find her name.
Her group has done really well and she's not had a
problem reconciling it as an UNschooler.

I got all this info. from a brief conversation. So,
please do verify and further research.

This mom really enjoyed that it was a co-ed group that
gave her sons the opportunity to participate in
activities with girls as their were no sisters in the
family.

The only "negative" I got from our talk was that they
have to sell candy bars. Personally, I HATE that kind
of vendor fund raising. I'd much rather be told what
the $$$ bottom line and decide how to raise the money
myself. Pushing sweets doesn't thrill me. But, I
take it that is the standard in all these types of
groups.


If someone else doesn't post it, I'll look for her
info. later today.

~~Melinda



=====
: D Melinda

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In a message dated 10/22/2002 11:46:48 AM Central Daylight Time,
melinda2u@... writes:


> I had a conversation with a Campfire USA leader from
> TN,(I think), at the Live and Learn UNschooling
> conference in Columbia.
>

That was me, Tuck! :)

I enjoyed our talk, and you related it very well.

On the candy issue....I've spent hundreds of my own dollars this year keeping
the club going, getting the stuff to do the things we want to have fun doing,
etc. I don't want to spend my own money anymore. Lots of the people in my
club can't afford to give that kind of money for their kid to do the cool
things we did. The candy sale helps us do a lot more than we would otherwise
get to do. A necessary evil.

Girl Scouts do cookies, Boy Scouts do popcorn, Camp Fire sells candy (good
candy! Not ordinary candy!)

It was nice meeting you and your hubby, Melinda!

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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In a message dated 10/22/2002 12:50:35 PM Central Daylight Time,
Tuckervill@... writes:


> had a conversation with a Campfire USA leader from
> > TN,(I think), at the Live and Learn UNschooling
> > conference in Columbia.
> >
>

Melinda, I must apologize to you. There is someone on the other list who I
thought said something about being at the conference, too. She's making a
real ass out of herself over there, and I thought she was *you* until you
posted about Camp Fire.

Thanks for posting that and clearing yourself up in my mind. I was getting
really disheartened.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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In a message dated 22/10/2002 10:19:07 GMT Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:


> I was born in Blackpool!
>
> Wendy - in Georgia

Might I know you?
Lynda, nr Blackpool UK


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wendy

Probably not but you might know some of my extended family. I left Blackpool
many moons ago. My grandparents are Jeanne and Lynn Music and my aunt and
uncle are Marjorie and Don Sanderson. Do you know a man by the name of Jock
Davis? I have some cousins in the area too but I forget their last names.

Wendy
-----Original Message-----
From: atwttmab@... [mailto:atwttmab@...]
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 10:27 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Digest Number 569


In a message dated 22/10/2002 10:19:07 GMT Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:


> I was born in Blackpool!
>
> Wendy - in Georgia

Might I know you?
Lynda, nr Blackpool UK


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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