[email protected]

>This sounds illegal to me...

It certainly seems like it should be. What's really a bummer is some
kids will wear the shirt and think it's funny. One of the side effects
of a public school education is accepting humiliation and worse, not even
being able to recognize it.

>One
> parent, Randy Newman, said, "I think the T-shirt is good if they make
> the
> kids wear them who need to wear them."

Yuck.

Deb L

Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema

At 04:27 PM 8/31/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>What's really a bummer is some
>kids will wear the shirt and think it's funny.

Shoot, if I was one of the kids, I'd organize a bunch of my friends and
we'd do our darndest to get one of those shirts every day... then try to
make it a school-wide thing (like the convict-baggy-pants thing.) They'd
eventually run out of shirts...

Better yet, the kids should get everyone they meet in the hallway to
autograph the shirt so everyone's looking for their signature when you walk
down the hall.

A badge of honor, if you would.
Heidi

[email protected]

LOL. The kids probably don't get to keep the shirts though, that
wouldn't seem enough like punishment to the school. I wouldn't be
surprised if they'd get in trouble for destruction of school property if
they wrote on the shirt. It'd be interesting to know though.

One of Dylan's friends was expelled for dying the ends of her hair blue.
She was 10 or 11 and in the fifth grade and they said it was too
disruptive to the other students. And I think I remember one incident
here where a high school kid was expelled because of his shirt and his
refusal to go home and change it.

I recently read somewhere about a school (somewhere) requiring uniforms
this year because too many kids were coming to school in pajamas.

Deb L

On Sat, 31 Aug 2002 16:29:01 -0700 Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
<heidi@...> writes:

> Shoot, if I was one of the kids, I'd organize a bunch of my friends
> and
> we'd do our darndest to get one of those shirts every day... then
> try to
> make it a school-wide thing (like the convict-baggy-pants thing.)
> They'd
> eventually run out of shirts...
>
> Better yet, the kids should get everyone they meet in the hallway to
>
> autograph the shirt so everyone's looking for their signature when
> you walk
> down the hall.
>
> A badge of honor, if you would.
> Heidi

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/31/02 7:32:28 PM Central Daylight Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:


>
> LOL. The kids probably don't get to keep the shirts though, that
> wouldn't seem enough like punishment to the school. I wouldn't be
> surprised if they'd get in trouble for destruction of school property if
> they wrote on the shirt. It'd be interesting to know though.
>
> One of Dylan's friends was expelled for dying the ends of her hair blue.
> She was 10 or 11 and in the fifth grade and they said it was too
> disruptive to the other students. And I think I remember one incident
> here where a high school kid was expelled because of his shirt and his
> refusal to go home and change it.
>
> I recently read somewhere about a school (somewhere) requiring uniforms
> this year because too many kids were coming to school in pajamas.
>
>

I was expelled from highschool for a week my sophomore year. I wore a shirt
that said something like (I would have to dig it out to get it right, so
don't quote me. <G>) *Nuke a godless, communist, gay, baby seal for Christ*
One of the principals saw me in the hall, stopped me, and told me I had to go
change my shirt. I told him I would have to go home because I wasn't in the
habit of bringing a change of clothes to school. He huffed and said, *Just
turn it inside out right now!* so I made motions to take my shirt off, right
in front of him, asking if he knew how much trouble he could get into for
asking a teenaged girl to turn her shirt out right in front of him. He got
real pissed and marched me into his office and called my Dad. My Dad asked
him if he knew what the shirt meant, and the principal told him he didn't
have to know what a shirt meant, to know it was wrong! <g> My Dad told me to
wear it every day for a week (he washed it for me every night.) and that's
how I got suspended.
~Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sharon Rudd

If everyone got together on the same day and wore the
No-No stuff, then everyone could have the tee shirt.
They would be good for car-washes and field trips and
pep-ralies :-) to show school spit, I mean spirit.

Sharon of the Swamp

--- ddzimlew@... wrote:
> >This sounds illegal to me...
>
> It certainly seems like it should be. What's really
> a bummer is some
> kids will wear the shirt and think it's funny. One
> of the side effects
> of a public school education is accepting
> humiliation and worse, not even
> being able to recognize it.
>
> >One
> > parent, Randy Newman, said, "I think the T-shirt
> is good if they make
> > the
> > kids wear them who need to wear them."
>
> Yuck.
>
> Deb L
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
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Nancy Wooton

on 8/31/02 8:44 PM, Dnowens@... at Dnowens@... wrote:

> In a message dated 8/31/02 7:32:28 PM Central Daylight Time,
> ddzimlew@... writes:

>
> I was expelled from highschool for a week my sophomore year. I wore a shirt
> that said something like (I would have to dig it out to get it right, so
> don't quote me. <G>) *Nuke a godless, communist, gay, baby seal for Christ*
> One of the principals saw me in the hall, stopped me, and told me I had to go
> change my shirt. I told him I would have to go home because I wasn't in the
> habit of bringing a change of clothes to school. He huffed and said, *Just
> turn it inside out right now!* so I made motions to take my shirt off, right
> in front of him, asking if he knew how much trouble he could get into for
> asking a teenaged girl to turn her shirt out right in front of him. He got
> real pissed and marched me into his office and called my Dad. My Dad asked
> him if he knew what the shirt meant, and the principal told him he didn't
> have to know what a shirt meant, to know it was wrong! <g> My Dad told me to
> wear it every day for a week (he washed it for me every night.) and that's
> how I got suspended.
> ~Nancy

I wrote a post on another list last week which got no response at all, but
I'd love to discuss with *someone*! Your dad may be the answer to the
question I pose at the very end, although I'm sure there are other answers.
A hit-and-run poster with an addy which included "charter.net" posted,
causing quite a stir; my reply follows:

> I guess there are many reasons people have for home schooling their
> children, however, the practice seems to be moving from an occasional
> thing to something that threatens the public school system. There is
> no question that everybody will not be able or want to home school
> their children. Our country became great and will remain great
> because all of the public are educated in the public school system..
> Not to have a public school system would result in our living in a
> country with countless uneducated masses. The public school system
> is being left with those parents who are disengaged from the
> education of their children while those of us who care about
> education are withdrawing our support. Lots of time and effort are
> put into home schooling... How much better our public school system
> would be if you parents would put even a small percentage of that
> time into volunteering your help, opinions and concerns with the
> public school system. Just think about that.......
>

This post has given me something to think about... the term "Stockholm
Syndrome" popped into my mind reading it; you know, when victims identify
with their captors. I just love to Google anyway, so I found this below.
I'd never thought about public school and its students, teachers, graduates
and supporters in this way before:

from
http://web.archive.org/web/20010802090349/www.pt7.com/public/articles/stockh
olm.htm

Emotional Bond
The Stockholm Syndrome is an emotional attachment, a bond of interdependence
between captive and captor that develops 'when someone threatens your life,
deliberates, and doesn't kill you.' (Symonds, 1980) The relief resulting
from the removal of the threat of death generates intense feelings of
gratitude and fear that combine to make the captive reluctant to display
negative feelings toward the captor or terrorist. In fact, former hostages
have visited their captors in jail, recommended defense counsel, and even
started a defense fund. It is this dynamic, which causes former hostages and
abuse survivors to minimize the damage done to them and refuse to cooperate
in prosecuting their tormentors. "The victims' need to survive is stronger
than his/her impulse to hate the person who has created the dilemma."
(Strentz, 1980) The victim comes to see the captor as a 'good guy', even a
savior. This condition...occurs in response to the four specific conditions
listed below:

* A person threatens to kill another and is perceived as having the
capability to do so.
* The other cannot escape, so her or his life depends on the threatening
person.
* The threatened person is isolated from outsiders so that the only other
perspective available to her or him is that of the threatening person.
* The threatening person is perceived as showing some degree of kindness
to the one being threatened.

It takes only 3-4 days for the characteristic bond of the Stockholm syndrome
to emerge when captor and captive are strangers. After that, research shows,
the duration of captivity is no longer relevant.
***

I realize children are not actually threatened with *death* in kindergarten,
but consider the trauma of separation from the parent; those photos of
children clinging to mommy as they are taken, crying, aboard a bus that
first day of school are a regular feature of September newspapers, and
something our society takes for granted as *normal,* a part of growing up.
Kids get used to it, right? (They can't escape.) After a month or two,
(with compliance from their parents, who continue the school's program by
enforcing homework and sending them back every day) they love school, don't
they? The teacher gives out stickers and candy and grades (sometimes good
ones which please the parents) and is kind (unless a child misbehaves; it
only takes one or two "examples" to bring the rest under control).

The duration of captivity seems to continue into adulthood for some people.
I wonder what makes the difference in those of us who reject school?

Nancy

nyneca

Hi, Nancy-

Regarding the reply that you posted, I'm afraid I have to disagree
with two of the points that you made:

The public school system> > is being left with those parents who
are disengaged from the> > education of their children while
those of us who care about> > education are withdrawing our
support.

While I believe that in general homeschooling parents are by
necessity more involved in their child's education than parents of
publicly or privately schooled kids, to suggest that the parents of
schooled kids are less involved is sort of a broad and unfair
generalization. While my kids were in the public school system, I
worked in the classroom on a weekly basis, drove on fieldtrips
and participated in the PTA. It was partly because of my direct
involvement with the school that I made the decision to
homeschool my children.

Lots of time and effort are> > put into home schooling... How
much better our public school system> > would be if you parents
would put even a small percentage of that> > time into
volunteering your help, opinions and concerns with the> > public
school system. Just think about that.......

I'm afraid that many of the issues that I had with the school
system were related to district policy, the tenure system, faculty
politics, and the inability or unwillingness of teachers to innovate,
and were not solvable by spending more of my time at the
school. It's been my experience that teachers do indeed
appreciate an extra pair of hands in the classroom, but really
don't appreciate it when you state your concerns. The school is
more than happy to have parents work on fund raising, or help
out in the cafeteria. They're not as thrilled at the prospect of
parents meddling in their jobs, but that's what it would take to
solve many of the problems.

Regarding the Stockholm Syndrome:
> I wonder what makes the difference in those of us who reject
school?

It's usually the parents who are doing the rejecting, rather than
the inmates, I mean, kids. I enjoyed (? was saddened!) reading
the section about the Stockhlom Syndrome while thinking of the
teacher-student relationship. There's certainly food for thought
there.
Ellen

Nancy Wooton

on 9/1/02 8:19 PM, nyneca at evkod@... wrote:

> Hi, Nancy-
>
> Regarding the reply that you posted, I'm afraid I have to disagree
> with two of the points that you made:
>
> The public school system> > is being left with those parents who
> are disengaged from the> > education of their children while
> those of us who care about> > education are withdrawing our
> support.
>
Point of clarification: the stuff about homeschoolers needing to support
public schools was NOT written by me; it was that person I thought had
"Stockholm Syndrome."


Nancy

[email protected]

My local school board is considering a new, stricter dress code for the high
school, one that basically defines and enforces a uniform. I was very amused
that the reporter for the small village weekly started his report on the
school board meeting where the code was discussed by detailing the dress of
the school board members in attendance - shorts, tee shirts, sandals... all
items that would be forbidden to students under the proposed code.

Deborah in IL

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/1/02 9:45:34 PM, dacunefare@... writes:

<< I was very amused
that the reporter for the small village weekly started his report on the
school board meeting where the code was discussed by detailing the dress of
the school board members in attendance - shorts, tee shirts, sandals... all
items that would be forbidden to students under the proposed code. >>

PERFECT!

Lisa Hardiman

I agree with this. My son was in the PIC classroom which stands for
Parents in the Classroom. This involved monthly meetings and
volunteering 2 hours a week. If you worked you could do that work by
making phone calls, and other things at home. About 50% of the parents
were involved all the time. Lisa

-----Original Message-----
From: nyneca [mailto:evkod@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Stockholm syndrome was Re: [AlwaysLearning] Dress for Success
or PUBLIC HUMILIAT

Hi, Nancy-

Regarding the reply that you posted, I'm afraid I have to disagree
with two of the points that you made:

The public school system> > is being left with those parents who
are disengaged from the> > education of their children while
those of us who care about> > education are withdrawing our
support.

While I believe that in general homeschooling parents are by
necessity more involved in their child's education than parents of
publicly or privately schooled kids, to suggest that the parents of
schooled kids are less involved is sort of a broad and unfair
generalization. While my kids were in the public school system, I
worked in the classroom on a weekly basis, drove on fieldtrips
and participated in the PTA. It was partly because of my direct
involvement with the school that I made the decision to
homeschool my children.

Lots of time and effort are> > put into home schooling... How
much better our public school system> > would be if you parents
would put even a small percentage of that> > time into
volunteering your help, opinions and concerns with the> > public
school system. Just think about that.......

I'm afraid that many of the issues that I had with the school
system were related to district policy, the tenure system, faculty
politics, and the inability or unwillingness of teachers to innovate,
and were not solvable by spending more of my time at the
school. It's been my experience that teachers do indeed
appreciate an extra pair of hands in the classroom, but really
don't appreciate it when you state your concerns. The school is
more than happy to have parents work on fund raising, or help
out in the cafeteria. They're not as thrilled at the prospect of
parents meddling in their jobs, but that's what it would take to
solve many of the problems.

Regarding the Stockholm Syndrome:
> I wonder what makes the difference in those of us who reject
school?

It's usually the parents who are doing the rejecting, rather than
the inmates, I mean, kids. I enjoyed (? was saddened!) reading
the section about the Stockhlom Syndrome while thinking of the
teacher-student relationship. There's certainly food for thought
there.
Ellen





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

meghanfire

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., Nancy Wooton <ikonstitcher@c...>
wrote:

> The duration of captivity seems to continue into adulthood for
some people.
> I wonder what makes the difference in those of us who reject
school?
>
> Nancy


I was thinking, I wonder if physical make-up (as in brain
chemisty) has anything to do with it as well as early experiences.
What I mean is, some people seem to get 'addicted' to things
and need 'crutches' more than others. By 'addicted' I mean
emotionally and/or physically. I am one of those that don't seem
to get attached to things in a compulsive way. Maybe that allows
some people to think outside the box more so than others. I do
know that for my mom it's been a struggle to understand
homeschooling, and she definitely struggles to think outside the
box.

By the way, thanks so much to those people we had lunch with at
the conference and to Sandra and Pam S. especially for helping
so much in my endeavour to enlighten my mom. She was very
impressed with you guys and it helped her tremendously to hear
unschooling described in such a succinct and eloquent manner.

What I had, that influenced me, was 3 years of 'alternative'
education in an 'experimental' classroom from 3rd to 5th grades.
This meant no desks, lots of free and outside time, and we
estimated the amount of work we could do in a week and so
were sort of (we had to do some work in each subject area, after
all it was still public school!) allowed to be in charge of what we
were doing. Just a few weeks ago (before we went to the
conference) my mom commented on how "damaging those
years were to my education". I countered with, "on the contrary, I
think it was those years that liberated me and allowed me to see
what education and learning could be". I don't think I could ever
accept the 'norm' again after that. I knew there was a better way.

Meghan

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/2/02 12:57:25 PM, meghan@... writes:

<< By the way, thanks so much to those people we had lunch with at
the conference and to Sandra and Pam S. especially for helping
so much in my endeavour to enlighten my mom. She was very
impressed with you guys and it helped her tremendously to hear
unschooling described in such a succinct and eloquent manner. >>

Cool!!

Lisa Hardiman

Actually I made a mistake. Parents had to volunteer in the classroom 2
hours a month, and only 50% of the parents did this, and this was a
special program that had one class in each grade. Most of the school
was no participation from parents except field trips, PTA (which takes
time away from family). Lisa

-----Original Message-----
From: Lisa Hardiman [mailto:lisa-hardiman@...]
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 11:07 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Stockholm syndrome was Re: [AlwaysLearning] Dress for
Success or PUBLIC HUMILIAT

I agree with this. My son was in the PIC classroom which stands for
Parents in the Classroom. This involved monthly meetings and
volunteering 2 hours a week. If you worked you could do that work by
making phone calls, and other things at home. About 50% of the parents
were involved all the time. Lisa

-----Original Message-----
From: nyneca [mailto:evkod@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Stockholm syndrome was Re: [AlwaysLearning] Dress for Success
or PUBLIC HUMILIAT

Hi, Nancy-

Regarding the reply that you posted, I'm afraid I have to disagree
with two of the points that you made:

The public school system> > is being left with those parents who
are disengaged from the> > education of their children while
those of us who care about> > education are withdrawing our
support.

While I believe that in general homeschooling parents are by
necessity more involved in their child's education than parents of
publicly or privately schooled kids, to suggest that the parents of
schooled kids are less involved is sort of a broad and unfair
generalization. While my kids were in the public school system, I
worked in the classroom on a weekly basis, drove on fieldtrips
and participated in the PTA. It was partly because of my direct
involvement with the school that I made the decision to
homeschool my children.

Lots of time and effort are> > put into home schooling... How
much better our public school system> > would be if you parents
would put even a small percentage of that> > time into
volunteering your help, opinions and concerns with the> > public
school system. Just think about that.......

I'm afraid that many of the issues that I had with the school
system were related to district policy, the tenure system, faculty
politics, and the inability or unwillingness of teachers to innovate,
and were not solvable by spending more of my time at the
school. It's been my experience that teachers do indeed
appreciate an extra pair of hands in the classroom, but really
don't appreciate it when you state your concerns. The school is
more than happy to have parents work on fund raising, or help
out in the cafeteria. They're not as thrilled at the prospect of
parents meddling in their jobs, but that's what it would take to
solve many of the problems.

Regarding the Stockholm Syndrome:
> I wonder what makes the difference in those of us who reject
school?

It's usually the parents who are doing the rejecting, rather than
the inmates, I mean, kids. I enjoyed (? was saddened!) reading
the section about the Stockhlom Syndrome while thinking of the
teacher-student relationship. There's certainly food for thought
there.
Ellen





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<< I was very amused
that the reporter for the small village weekly started his report on the
school board meeting where the code was discussed by detailing the dress of
the school board members in attendance - shorts, tee shirts, sandals... all
items that would be forbidden to students under the proposed code. >>

The SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS wore "shorts, tee shirts, and sandals" to a
professional school board meeting? No wonder people are starting to take
them less seriously.
~Elissa Cleaveland
An unlesson'd girl, unschool'd, unpractic'd;
Happy in this, she is not so old
But she may learn.
W.S. The Merchant of Venice III, ii, 160