Response and plea for mercy
[email protected]
This is not an easy life she's talking about.
Let's let slide until she gives us more information.
Yes I have suspicions about kids wanting structure, and yes I'll probably
always want people to drop all talk of giftedness, but I'll lose on that one.
This does shed some sadder light on things, though.
that the Menapolits maintained, with its own message boards, but it seems to
be down.
for giftedness. We were very unhappy with the school's response, which was
if they're gifted, they don't need any special programming. The children
were bored and miserable.
We took them out of school and began traditional unschooling. We pictured
happy children enjoying the resources and time available to them. We didn't
pressure them, and offered flexibility and options. This went on for two
years.
Finally my two oldest children came to us in tears. Both were angry that we
hadn't pushed them more to make use of their gifts, and demanded to go back
to school. Both were very unhappy, and felt they had wasted time.
Coincidentally, two days later I discovered that the workshop was happening,
and arranged to fly to CA. (SF) I was reluctant to try the approach, because
it just didn't seem to fit into the John Holt framework, but my children
said that if we didn't try it, they wanted to go back to school -- which I
KNEW wasn't good for them.
They bloomed. They started working on things that interested them, they got
happy... Then a year ago we adopted my youngest son. He was my sister's son,
and we hadn't been in touch for a long time bgecause my sister has drug
problems and hid from the family. Finally, she was arrested, and asked me to
take him. She will be in jail for at least seven years. I agreed, IF I could
legally adopt him. He needed stability so badly.
Nate came to us a boy who alternated between silent and screaming. We're not
sure, but we suspect there's been lots of abuse, and certainly neglect. He
seems to be thriving with a LOT of structure. When we offered little
structure, he screamed most of the time. He seems happiest when he is doing
some activity with one of his siblings. Well, that and watching Pokemon
videos, which he did for up to fourteen hours a day when he came to us. He
still watches two-three hours a day, which is fine. I'm hoping soon he won't
need that, but he's still a very hurting little peanut.
I think I just told you far more that you wanted to know about my family!
with the website, but I'll dig out some materials from the mess I call my
house and find more official sources.
It was nice hearing from you. I hope I haven't bored you.
Kay
________________
Let's let slide until she gives us more information.
Yes I have suspicions about kids wanting structure, and yes I'll probably
always want people to drop all talk of giftedness, but I'll lose on that one.
This does shed some sadder light on things, though.
>From: SandraDodd@...No, but I will look for it.
>To: kaymarchant@..., SandraDodd@...
>Subject: I am curious and would like more information
>Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 12:26:58 EDT
>
>-=Like Traditional Unschooling, Accelerated Unschooling understands that
>children are best able to determine their interests and talents and gifts.
>People are naturally drawn to activities and topics that fit their
>personalities-=-
>
>
>Have you read Frank Smith's _The Book of Learning and Forgetting_? I
>really
>think you'd like it.
>
><< Many children and adultsThus far I don't know of any formal support groups. There was a web page
>have very strong gifts and interests that they'd like to pursue, but
>limited
>resources, and, even more, procrastination or laziness keep them from
>pursuing them.>>
>
>In any unschooling family it's the parents' part to provide opportunities
>and
>inspiration. I'm not really picturing what would "accelerate" it and still
>keep it in the realm of unschooling.
>
>My original question was where are the support groups in various states, or
>where is this written up on the internet, because I had never heard of it
>until the other day.
>
that the Menapolits maintained, with its own message boards, but it seems to
be down.
><<Accelerated Unschooling allows the parent to take control ofMy older children were in school when they were tested, in different areas,
>the motivation piece.>>
>
>Once parents have "taken control" of ANY piece, how is it then still
>learning
>at one's own pace ?
>
><<This is especially important for children who are
>Gifted or Talented, but who often lack motivation. Accelerated Unschooling
>allows them to reach their potentials.>>
>
>Tell me more.
>
><<My personal experience with Accelerated Unschooling has been particularly
>dramatic. I have fo have begun Accelerated
>Unschooling, they have excelled in all of their areas of giftedness >>
>
>What method were you using before "accelerated unschooling"?
>Were the children ever in school?
>
for giftedness. We were very unhappy with the school's response, which was
if they're gifted, they don't need any special programming. The children
were bored and miserable.
We took them out of school and began traditional unschooling. We pictured
happy children enjoying the resources and time available to them. We didn't
pressure them, and offered flexibility and options. This went on for two
years.
Finally my two oldest children came to us in tears. Both were angry that we
hadn't pushed them more to make use of their gifts, and demanded to go back
to school. Both were very unhappy, and felt they had wasted time.
Coincidentally, two days later I discovered that the workshop was happening,
and arranged to fly to CA. (SF) I was reluctant to try the approach, because
it just didn't seem to fit into the John Holt framework, but my children
said that if we didn't try it, they wanted to go back to school -- which I
KNEW wasn't good for them.
They bloomed. They started working on things that interested them, they got
happy... Then a year ago we adopted my youngest son. He was my sister's son,
and we hadn't been in touch for a long time bgecause my sister has drug
problems and hid from the family. Finally, she was arrested, and asked me to
take him. She will be in jail for at least seven years. I agreed, IF I could
legally adopt him. He needed stability so badly.
Nate came to us a boy who alternated between silent and screaming. We're not
sure, but we suspect there's been lots of abuse, and certainly neglect. He
seems to be thriving with a LOT of structure. When we offered little
structure, he screamed most of the time. He seems happiest when he is doing
some activity with one of his siblings. Well, that and watching Pokemon
videos, which he did for up to fourteen hours a day when he came to us. He
still watches two-three hours a day, which is fine. I'm hoping soon he won't
need that, but he's still a very hurting little peanut.
I think I just told you far more that you wanted to know about my family!
><<Accelerated Unschooling is becoming more popular. I attended a workshopI will try to get you more information soon. I don't know what's going on
>with
>its inventors, Conrad and Lydia Menapolit, in California, and it has
>changed
>our lives. We are hoping that Conrad and Lydia will be doing more
>workshops,
>but they are presently in Austria writing a book about Accelerated
>Unschooling.>>
>
>When and where was the workshop? At a conference?
>I'm really surprised I hadn't heard about it, so yes, please give me any
>resources you have so I can understand it, since I get VERY many inquiries
>from others about unschooling.
>
>Sandra
with the website, but I'll dig out some materials from the mess I call my
house and find more official sources.
It was nice hearing from you. I hope I haven't bored you.
Kay
________________
[email protected]
***This is not an easy life she's talking about.
Let's let slide until she gives us more information.
Yes I have suspicions about kids wanting structure, and yes I'll probably
always want people to drop all talk of giftedness, but I'll lose on that
one.
This does shed some sadder light on things, though.***
Sad indeed. All of it. And without any understanding of what
"traditional unschooling" meant to her, we can't have any real picture
of what life looked like to those kids before they "accelerated", or
what it is now.
Man, just when I thought I couldn't feel more sorry for little Nate.
Deb L, off to hug one happy little boy for no special reason.
Let's let slide until she gives us more information.
Yes I have suspicions about kids wanting structure, and yes I'll probably
always want people to drop all talk of giftedness, but I'll lose on that
one.
This does shed some sadder light on things, though.***
Sad indeed. All of it. And without any understanding of what
"traditional unschooling" meant to her, we can't have any real picture
of what life looked like to those kids before they "accelerated", or
what it is now.
Man, just when I thought I couldn't feel more sorry for little Nate.
Deb L, off to hug one happy little boy for no special reason.
Nancy Wooton
on 8/23/02 4:14 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
permission for her original letter to be posted? I thought we were snarking
in safe anonymity, with no danger our discussion would reach the party under
discussion.
Nancy
> This is not an easy life she's talking about.Are people *writing* to her (besides you, Sandra, obviously)? Did she give
> Let's let slide until she gives us more information.
permission for her original letter to be posted? I thought we were snarking
in safe anonymity, with no danger our discussion would reach the party under
discussion.
Nancy
Sharon Rudd
I don't think there is any such thing as safe
anonymous snarking.
Nor can one safely DECLARE themselves to be
unschooling if they aren't.
There is something so OPEN about unschooling...if that
is what is happening there is just no way to keep it
secret. Nor is it possible to fake it (like on a
multiple choice test). Ya'll see right though
everything!! Even artificial sweeteners (flattery and
such). Ya'll even see through the parts that are
omitted....as evidenced by the types of questions that
show up whenever absolution for continued wrongness is
sought.
If a person doesn't want to be scrutinized they
shouldn't DECLARE themselves to be something when they
don't know what it is, (or isn't). And if they don't
want to be judged they should not have children,
especially unschooled ones!
Actually she sounds like some of my relatives, of this
generation. One in particular likes to go to
motivational workshops so he could be motivated to
pass along motivational comments and tips to motivate
his children (and friends and relatives) to be
motivated to do mo'. And so he would be motivated to
do his motivating with a motivated smile.
I can't do anything anonymously....make mistakes, skip
spell check, say stupid stuff.....my name is posted
with the post.
And all of the time there is a child observing.
Always. Everything a parent says or does is up for
scrutiny with unschoolers.
And sometimes while trying to post, that sharp little
chin rests on my shoulder....and that breathing is
right in my ear when Roy says....its MY turn, now. But
he is asleep, and now it is MY turn.....
Sharon of the Swamp
I
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com
anonymous snarking.
Nor can one safely DECLARE themselves to be
unschooling if they aren't.
There is something so OPEN about unschooling...if that
is what is happening there is just no way to keep it
secret. Nor is it possible to fake it (like on a
multiple choice test). Ya'll see right though
everything!! Even artificial sweeteners (flattery and
such). Ya'll even see through the parts that are
omitted....as evidenced by the types of questions that
show up whenever absolution for continued wrongness is
sought.
If a person doesn't want to be scrutinized they
shouldn't DECLARE themselves to be something when they
don't know what it is, (or isn't). And if they don't
want to be judged they should not have children,
especially unschooled ones!
Actually she sounds like some of my relatives, of this
generation. One in particular likes to go to
motivational workshops so he could be motivated to
pass along motivational comments and tips to motivate
his children (and friends and relatives) to be
motivated to do mo'. And so he would be motivated to
do his motivating with a motivated smile.
I can't do anything anonymously....make mistakes, skip
spell check, say stupid stuff.....my name is posted
with the post.
And all of the time there is a child observing.
Always. Everything a parent says or does is up for
scrutiny with unschoolers.
And sometimes while trying to post, that sharp little
chin rests on my shoulder....and that breathing is
right in my ear when Roy says....its MY turn, now. But
he is asleep, and now it is MY turn.....
Sharon of the Swamp
I
> thought we were snarking__________________________________________________
> in safe anonymity, with no danger our discussion
> would reach the party under
> discussion.
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com
Fetteroll
on 8/23/02 7:14 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
out. It's better than school. It sounds like for her older ones it's better
than being dumped from school into unschooling without any guidance.
And it sounds like just about anything is a step up from where the youngest
was. If she was fine with 14 hours of Pokemon and now says he's down to 2-3
and she's fine with that, then it sounds like she's letting him heal. And if
he's been with a druggy mother, maybe it's healthier to see that he needs
"remedial" attention -- recognizing that he may be at the level of a typical
4 yo in emotional response/intelligence for instance, or at the level of a 5
yo in his understanding of a child's world -- than assuming he should be
behaving as a typical 7 yo.
Now if someone came onto an unschooling list promoting this so called
accelerated unschooling as better than unschooling then it's open as a
discussion of ideas. It's not a place I would direct anyone to and I'd
certainly have a great deal to say if they asked. But judging someone's life
-- who hasn't asked for opinons -- as not being where it could be ... well,
it seems to me as long as someone is responding to her kids' unhappiness,
trying to find something that makes them happier then she's going to
continue to grow and create something better for them.
Joyce
> This does shed some sadder light on things, though.I dunno, it sounds like it was the best of what she's been able to figure
out. It's better than school. It sounds like for her older ones it's better
than being dumped from school into unschooling without any guidance.
And it sounds like just about anything is a step up from where the youngest
was. If she was fine with 14 hours of Pokemon and now says he's down to 2-3
and she's fine with that, then it sounds like she's letting him heal. And if
he's been with a druggy mother, maybe it's healthier to see that he needs
"remedial" attention -- recognizing that he may be at the level of a typical
4 yo in emotional response/intelligence for instance, or at the level of a 5
yo in his understanding of a child's world -- than assuming he should be
behaving as a typical 7 yo.
Now if someone came onto an unschooling list promoting this so called
accelerated unschooling as better than unschooling then it's open as a
discussion of ideas. It's not a place I would direct anyone to and I'd
certainly have a great deal to say if they asked. But judging someone's life
-- who hasn't asked for opinons -- as not being where it could be ... well,
it seems to me as long as someone is responding to her kids' unhappiness,
trying to find something that makes them happier then she's going to
continue to grow and create something better for them.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/24/02 12:32:43 AM, ikonstitcher@... writes:
<< Are people *writing* to her (besides you, Sandra, obviously)? Did she give
permission for her original letter to be posted? I thought we were snarking
in safe anonymity, with no danger our discussion would reach the party under
discussion. >>
This is an accessible-by-yahoo list, and accessible by my website.
I do think the whole accelerated unschooling thing is unfortunate and touches
on some things I've said 'eek' about for years, especially the giftedness
stuff. But the original bravado seems NOT to be the tip of a big iceberg.
I'm still wondering whether the people did just one single little workshop or
whether it does have some grassroots basis, and if there were even a hundred
people, whether it's something they'll maintain or whether they'll fade into
the general unschooling population.
I didn't ask about sharing the letter. Since the original question and
discussion was here, when I got more information I posted it here too.
Sandra
<< Are people *writing* to her (besides you, Sandra, obviously)? Did she give
permission for her original letter to be posted? I thought we were snarking
in safe anonymity, with no danger our discussion would reach the party under
discussion. >>
This is an accessible-by-yahoo list, and accessible by my website.
I do think the whole accelerated unschooling thing is unfortunate and touches
on some things I've said 'eek' about for years, especially the giftedness
stuff. But the original bravado seems NOT to be the tip of a big iceberg.
I'm still wondering whether the people did just one single little workshop or
whether it does have some grassroots basis, and if there were even a hundred
people, whether it's something they'll maintain or whether they'll fade into
the general unschooling population.
I didn't ask about sharing the letter. Since the original question and
discussion was here, when I got more information I posted it here too.
Sandra
Betsy
**
I dunno, it sounds like it was the best of what she's been able to figure
out. It's better than school. It sounds like for her older ones it's better
than being dumped from school into unschooling without any guidance.**
Perhaps, but it does make me curious how she originally learned about
unschooling and how she practiced it in her home.
Somewhere in these United States or on the 'net there seem to be
sentences and paragraphs written (directly or indirectly) about
unschooling that don't much resemble what we here understand unschooling
to be.
I wish I understood why this parent wanted to try unschooling in the
first place and why her kids didn't seem to get much out of it.
Betsy
I dunno, it sounds like it was the best of what she's been able to figure
out. It's better than school. It sounds like for her older ones it's better
than being dumped from school into unschooling without any guidance.**
Perhaps, but it does make me curious how she originally learned about
unschooling and how she practiced it in her home.
Somewhere in these United States or on the 'net there seem to be
sentences and paragraphs written (directly or indirectly) about
unschooling that don't much resemble what we here understand unschooling
to be.
I wish I understood why this parent wanted to try unschooling in the
first place and why her kids didn't seem to get much out of it.
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/24/02 9:47:14 AM, listmail@... writes:
<< I'm wondering why we all (and I include myself, at times) have such a
strong
attachment to the word unschooling, and why we're so threatened when people
don't share our meaning. >>
I fear dilution.
<< I'm wondering why we all (and I include myself, at times) have such a
strong
attachment to the word unschooling, and why we're so threatened when people
don't share our meaning. >>
I fear dilution.
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/24/02 11:47:00 AM Central Daylight Time,
listmail@... writes:
as unschooling to someone else looking for answers, if what they do isn't
really unschooling. I don't know why, but I just feel that the (if you want
to call it a label) idea of unschooling has evolved to mean certain things,
and it doesn't include coercion.
On another list, a lady was telling a newcomer all about her idea of
unschooling. This included, among other things, her idea that if one of her
children expressed an interest in a subject or idea, she would make
worksheets, reading lists, and unit studies. All this was presented as a good
"child-led" learning experience. I made the mistake of stating that, while I
felt things like unit studies and reading lists were fine, it wasn't *true*
unschooling. And that, if they were eclectic schoolers that was fine but they
shouldn't pass it off to others as unschooling. Big heated debate followed
(many making statements to me that I was putting a label and restrictions on
unschooling, that I was making it sound like a members only club) with most
declaring that with unschooling, everything goes. That my way was too
uncertain, and that what I was doing was tantamount to educational neglect. >
:( That it was a parents duty with unschooling to see that if a child was
interested in something to provide said unit studies and worksheets.
Another view was expressed that if a child never showed an interest in a
certain subject and a parent felt that subject was important, then the parent
should make sure the child learned it as well. Cajoling allowed. I said that
it was certainly a narrow minded view that children couldn't be trusted to
learn anything without boxing things into school like subjects and *making*
them learn. Needless to say, I was the oddball in that group! <g>
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
listmail@... writes:
> attachment to the word unschooling, and why we're so threatened when peopleFor some reason, I find it irritating to hear someone describe what they do
> don't share our meaning. >>
>
> sandra said: I fear dilution.
>
> Can you be more specific?
>
> Who does it hurt when people say they're unschooling but still coerce in
> some way?
>
> When I find myself irritated at people who say they unschool but don't do it
> the way I do, it is because I have some ego invested in the hard work of
> changing my perspective, of deschooling myself. So when I see someone else
> take credit for that work who hasn't done it, it bugs the heck out of me.
>
as unschooling to someone else looking for answers, if what they do isn't
really unschooling. I don't know why, but I just feel that the (if you want
to call it a label) idea of unschooling has evolved to mean certain things,
and it doesn't include coercion.
On another list, a lady was telling a newcomer all about her idea of
unschooling. This included, among other things, her idea that if one of her
children expressed an interest in a subject or idea, she would make
worksheets, reading lists, and unit studies. All this was presented as a good
"child-led" learning experience. I made the mistake of stating that, while I
felt things like unit studies and reading lists were fine, it wasn't *true*
unschooling. And that, if they were eclectic schoolers that was fine but they
shouldn't pass it off to others as unschooling. Big heated debate followed
(many making statements to me that I was putting a label and restrictions on
unschooling, that I was making it sound like a members only club) with most
declaring that with unschooling, everything goes. That my way was too
uncertain, and that what I was doing was tantamount to educational neglect. >
:( That it was a parents duty with unschooling to see that if a child was
interested in something to provide said unit studies and worksheets.
Another view was expressed that if a child never showed an interest in a
certain subject and a parent felt that subject was important, then the parent
should make sure the child learned it as well. Cajoling allowed. I said that
it was certainly a narrow minded view that children couldn't be trusted to
learn anything without boxing things into school like subjects and *making*
them learn. Needless to say, I was the oddball in that group! <g>
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
On Sat, 24 Aug 2002 12:45:52 -0700 "Amy" <listmail@...>
writes:
common definition.
Dar
writes:
> Who does it hurt when people say they're unschooling but stillBecause it makes the word unschooling meaningless, if we don't have a
> coerce in
> some way?
common definition.
Dar
Bill and Diane
Sometimes people hear things from a variety of sources and experiences.
When I first heard of unschooling it sounded great to me, but when I
mentioned it to Bill, who had never heard of it, he thought of a friend
of ours.
She claimed to be homeschooling, but actually her son was being raised
by the dog and the TV, while she worked and came home. They never did
anything "educational" it's true, but as far as we could tell, they
never did anything else either. They'd never, neither mother nor son,
been to the library. No Internet access (although this was before it was
terribly widespread--WWW was just becoming common), no hobbies.
When I started being excited about unschooling, this was the picture
Bill had. I think it's what many people think of when they hear the
term. Sometimes, too, it's with the expectation that if you totally
ignore the kid for six months, he'll suddenly pick up Shakespeare and
the Algebra book.
Often this doesn't succeed. ;-)
:-) Diane
When I first heard of unschooling it sounded great to me, but when I
mentioned it to Bill, who had never heard of it, he thought of a friend
of ours.
She claimed to be homeschooling, but actually her son was being raised
by the dog and the TV, while she worked and came home. They never did
anything "educational" it's true, but as far as we could tell, they
never did anything else either. They'd never, neither mother nor son,
been to the library. No Internet access (although this was before it was
terribly widespread--WWW was just becoming common), no hobbies.
When I started being excited about unschooling, this was the picture
Bill had. I think it's what many people think of when they hear the
term. Sometimes, too, it's with the expectation that if you totally
ignore the kid for six months, he'll suddenly pick up Shakespeare and
the Algebra book.
Often this doesn't succeed. ;-)
:-) Diane
> I dunno, it sounds like it was the best of what she's been able to figure
> out. It's better than school. It sounds like for her older ones it's
> better
> than being dumped from school into unschooling without any guidance.**
>
>
> Perhaps, but it does make me curious how she originally learned about
> unschooling and how she practiced it in her home.
>
> Somewhere in these United States or on the 'net there seem to be
> sentences and paragraphs written (directly or indirectly) about
> unschooling that don't much resemble what we here understand unschooling
> to be.
>
> I wish I understood why this parent wanted to try unschooling in the
> first place and why her kids didn't seem to get much out of it.
>
> Betsy
[email protected]
On Sat, 24 Aug 2002 14:10:04 -0700 "Amy" <listmail@...>
writes:
lead people astray. Textbooks or no textbooks, outside classes or no
outside classes, etc, aren't the defining factors for unschooling. You
could come to our house, notice the Daily Spelling Word on the whiteboard
written in both cursive and print with room for it to be rewritten below,
with another list of spelling words on the side, and assume lots of
things about us. Of couirse, the truth is that the current word has been
up there for three weeks at least, that the whole spelling thing was
Rain's idea and she seems to have lost interest in the whole project, and
that that's totally okay, and I'm not going to chase her down and make
her write "round" 10 times.
If someone believes that children should not be coerced into learning,
but instead should be supported in learning how and when they wanted, and
should have a variety of options available, then they're unschooling.
There may be textbooks or classes or spelling words on the whitebaord,
but it's still unschooling. OTOH, you may have no textbooks at all, but
require children to write about "anything they chose" for 30 minutes a
day, to read from anything for an hour, and to do "some kind of math",
and you're not unschooling. It actually is pretty black and white, in my
mind anyway.
Dar
writes:
> No one family does thingsI think looking at the accoutrements rather than the core philosophy can
> identically, but there are some common denominators. The word certainly
> hasn't lost meaning because some people interpret it way too
> loosely.
>
lead people astray. Textbooks or no textbooks, outside classes or no
outside classes, etc, aren't the defining factors for unschooling. You
could come to our house, notice the Daily Spelling Word on the whiteboard
written in both cursive and print with room for it to be rewritten below,
with another list of spelling words on the side, and assume lots of
things about us. Of couirse, the truth is that the current word has been
up there for three weeks at least, that the whole spelling thing was
Rain's idea and she seems to have lost interest in the whole project, and
that that's totally okay, and I'm not going to chase her down and make
her write "round" 10 times.
If someone believes that children should not be coerced into learning,
but instead should be supported in learning how and when they wanted, and
should have a variety of options available, then they're unschooling.
There may be textbooks or classes or spelling words on the whitebaord,
but it's still unschooling. OTOH, you may have no textbooks at all, but
require children to write about "anything they chose" for 30 minutes a
day, to read from anything for an hour, and to do "some kind of math",
and you're not unschooling. It actually is pretty black and white, in my
mind anyway.
Dar
Amy
I wish I understood why this parent wanted to try unschooling in the
first place and why her kids didn't seem to get much out of it.
I'm wondering why we all (and I include myself, at times) have such a strong
attachment to the word unschooling, and why we're so threatened when people
don't share our meaning. After all, iiuc, when Holt originated it, he wasn't
talking about totally child-led learning.
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
first place and why her kids didn't seem to get much out of it.
I'm wondering why we all (and I include myself, at times) have such a strong
attachment to the word unschooling, and why we're so threatened when people
don't share our meaning. After all, iiuc, when Holt originated it, he wasn't
talking about totally child-led learning.
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Amy
oops betsy, didn't mean to include your text - I mean, I wasn't responding
to you specifically
-----Original Message-----
From: Amy [mailto:listmail@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 11:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Response and plea for mercy
I wish I understood why this parent wanted to try unschooling in the
first place and why her kids didn't seem to get much out of it.
I'm wondering why we all (and I include myself, at times) have such a
strong
attachment to the word unschooling, and why we're so threatened when
people
don't share our meaning. After all, iiuc, when Holt originated it, he
wasn't
talking about totally child-led learning.
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to you specifically
-----Original Message-----
From: Amy [mailto:listmail@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 11:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Response and plea for mercy
I wish I understood why this parent wanted to try unschooling in the
first place and why her kids didn't seem to get much out of it.
I'm wondering why we all (and I include myself, at times) have such a
strong
attachment to the word unschooling, and why we're so threatened when
people
don't share our meaning. After all, iiuc, when Holt originated it, he
wasn't
talking about totally child-led learning.
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/24/02 10:47:04 AM, listmail@... writes:
<< Still, it seems like a waste of my energy to spend time snarking on people
who aren't really hurting me or anyone else. >>
Sometimes their kids are victims.
And if they're justifying what they do based on our hard perspective-changing
work, but they don't really do it, it can come to reflect on the rest of us.
Leaving aside the overly-industrious and non trusting for a moment, just
imagining a worst-case scenario of neglect. Let's say not even "benign
neglect," which can be pretty cool for some personalities. But a bad
situation in which the parents aren't protecting their kids from other
people's bullying or abuse, in which the child has little access to people,
places or things, etc., if called "unschooling," could endanger the rights of
the rest of us.
So it makes more sense to press for a minimal compliance with attention to
parenting business. I think it is possible to be too unconcerned with a
child's growth and wellbeing.
Is there then a point (and is it equidistant from the balanced middle, if we
can imagine a hypothetical such place) at which parents are too concerned
with a child's growth and wellbeing? Where the child's life is set aside to
be lived once he has been sufficiently unschooled to the parents'
satisfaction, and then he can start making his own educational and personal
decisions?
Maybe that's what the responses to "accelarated unschooling" are about.
If we think kids need food, safety, shelter, etc., there's an edge at which
we might say "not enough."
If we think kids need antonomy and freedom, where's that other edge?
If there is no identifiable good-example range and theory of unschooling,
then those who say "we unschool history but not science" might as well define
unschooling as anyone.
Sandra
<< Still, it seems like a waste of my energy to spend time snarking on people
who aren't really hurting me or anyone else. >>
Sometimes their kids are victims.
And if they're justifying what they do based on our hard perspective-changing
work, but they don't really do it, it can come to reflect on the rest of us.
Leaving aside the overly-industrious and non trusting for a moment, just
imagining a worst-case scenario of neglect. Let's say not even "benign
neglect," which can be pretty cool for some personalities. But a bad
situation in which the parents aren't protecting their kids from other
people's bullying or abuse, in which the child has little access to people,
places or things, etc., if called "unschooling," could endanger the rights of
the rest of us.
So it makes more sense to press for a minimal compliance with attention to
parenting business. I think it is possible to be too unconcerned with a
child's growth and wellbeing.
Is there then a point (and is it equidistant from the balanced middle, if we
can imagine a hypothetical such place) at which parents are too concerned
with a child's growth and wellbeing? Where the child's life is set aside to
be lived once he has been sufficiently unschooled to the parents'
satisfaction, and then he can start making his own educational and personal
decisions?
Maybe that's what the responses to "accelarated unschooling" are about.
If we think kids need food, safety, shelter, etc., there's an edge at which
we might say "not enough."
If we think kids need antonomy and freedom, where's that other edge?
If there is no identifiable good-example range and theory of unschooling,
then those who say "we unschool history but not science" might as well define
unschooling as anyone.
Sandra
Pam Hartley
So where would you draw the line, if at all, and at least think if not say,
"that's not unschooling"?
Pam
----------
From: "Amy" <listmail@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Response and plea for mercy
Date: Sat, Aug 24, 2002, 2:46 PM
"It actually is pretty black and white, in my
mind anyway." (from Dar)
Yea, this pretty much sums it up. For me, it's not.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"that's not unschooling"?
Pam
----------
From: "Amy" <listmail@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Response and plea for mercy
Date: Sat, Aug 24, 2002, 2:46 PM
"It actually is pretty black and white, in my
mind anyway." (from Dar)
Yea, this pretty much sums it up. For me, it's not.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
At 12:45 PM 8/24/2002 -0700, you wrote:
frustrated. I think the whole unschooling thing comes from respecting the
child as much as an adult would be respected. When folks say they
'unschool', but they don't grant that kid as much respect as they would
their best friend, it irks me.
(and this will be an imperfect analogy!) For instance, say my best friend
Jan gets interested in Peruvian Bullfrogs (or whatever.) I might pick up a
book on Peruvian Bullfrogs at the local bookstore or a video at the library
and she might enjoy that. What do you think she'd do if I showed up with
worksheets to 'circle the Peruvian Bullfrog', sat her down for a lecture on
Peru (which, after all is where the bullfrog lives) and emphasized the
economic impact of the Bullfrog on Peruvian immigration...what if I asked
her to write a paper for me on Peruvian Bullfrogs? She'd think I was nuts
and would probably stop being so enthusiastic when I was around.
So, folks who do such things to their kids interests, aren't really
respecting them as they would an adult and so, aren't really
unschooling... it's the blinders folks seem to have when it comes to
respecting kids that bugs me the most. The kid's interested in the subject
matter, so that's how I'll get in the worksheets and report writing that I
want so much to happen. He won't mind because he's only a kid and after
all, it *is* based on his interest area...
Argh.
Heidi
>attachment to the word unschooling, and why we're so threatened when peopleI don't really feel threatened so much as I do aggravated or maybe
>don't share our meaning. >>
frustrated. I think the whole unschooling thing comes from respecting the
child as much as an adult would be respected. When folks say they
'unschool', but they don't grant that kid as much respect as they would
their best friend, it irks me.
(and this will be an imperfect analogy!) For instance, say my best friend
Jan gets interested in Peruvian Bullfrogs (or whatever.) I might pick up a
book on Peruvian Bullfrogs at the local bookstore or a video at the library
and she might enjoy that. What do you think she'd do if I showed up with
worksheets to 'circle the Peruvian Bullfrog', sat her down for a lecture on
Peru (which, after all is where the bullfrog lives) and emphasized the
economic impact of the Bullfrog on Peruvian immigration...what if I asked
her to write a paper for me on Peruvian Bullfrogs? She'd think I was nuts
and would probably stop being so enthusiastic when I was around.
So, folks who do such things to their kids interests, aren't really
respecting them as they would an adult and so, aren't really
unschooling... it's the blinders folks seem to have when it comes to
respecting kids that bugs me the most. The kid's interested in the subject
matter, so that's how I'll get in the worksheets and report writing that I
want so much to happen. He won't mind because he's only a kid and after
all, it *is* based on his interest area...
Argh.
Heidi
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/24/02 12:00:47 PM, cen46624@... writes:
-=-Sometimes, too, it's with the expectation that if you totally
ignore the kid for six months, he'll suddenly pick up Shakespeare and
the Algebra book.
-=-Often this doesn't succeed. ;-) -=-
Especially if there's no Shakespeare in the house!
-=-Sometimes, too, it's with the expectation that if you totally
ignore the kid for six months, he'll suddenly pick up Shakespeare and
the Algebra book.
-=-Often this doesn't succeed. ;-) -=-
Especially if there's no Shakespeare in the house!
Amy
attachment to the word unschooling, and why we're so threatened when people
don't share our meaning. >>
sandra said: I fear dilution.
Can you be more specific?
Who does it hurt when people say they're unschooling but still coerce in
some way?
When I find myself irritated at people who say they unschool but don't do it
the way I do, it is because I have some ego invested in the hard work of
changing my perspective, of deschooling myself. So when I see someone else
take credit for that work who hasn't done it, it bugs the heck out of me.
Still, it seems like a waste of my energy to spend time snarking on people
who aren't really hurting me or anyone else. As someone already mentioned,
inconsistencies between words and actual practice become very apparent with
or without our policing.
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
don't share our meaning. >>
sandra said: I fear dilution.
Can you be more specific?
Who does it hurt when people say they're unschooling but still coerce in
some way?
When I find myself irritated at people who say they unschool but don't do it
the way I do, it is because I have some ego invested in the hard work of
changing my perspective, of deschooling myself. So when I see someone else
take credit for that work who hasn't done it, it bugs the heck out of me.
Still, it seems like a waste of my energy to spend time snarking on people
who aren't really hurting me or anyone else. As someone already mentioned,
inconsistencies between words and actual practice become very apparent with
or without our policing.
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Hartley
"For us, the most valuable aspect of our unschooling is that it is led by
the interests of my kids. I would say that is the deciding factor - either a
child's interests are considered, or they aren't."
By that definition, we could say that if a child showed an interest in
whales and the parents then designed a curriculum very whale-intensive
(considering the interests of the child) and enforced it at the kitchen
table from 8 to 2 each weekday, it would be unschooling.
Interest is one thing, but for me unschooling is about choice: who decides
if to do it and when to do it and how to do it and why to do it and what to
do in the first place.
(Highly important caveat: this kind of statement often incites people to
say, "Well, if I just waited around for him to start doing linear algebra
we'd wait forever!" so I have to add: this doesn't mean I sit staring at the
child until she springs up like a performing seal, we just help our
daughters do what they want, occasionally to often offering things we think
they MIGHT want, and do that offering without prejudice -- i.e, we take no
for an answer and don't take that answer personally. We also -- and here
perhaps is the radical side of unschooling, or perhaps not -- don't have an
agenda. I don't sit up nights plotting things that will encourage Brit to
read, or Mikey to engage in arithmetics, or either of them to ground them in
the fundamentals of science and logic. Such schoolish agenda, however well
hidden from the children, seems to me -- though not necessarily to all
unschoolers -- to be contrary to unschooling in the first place.)
"It seems that for some people, it is also an equally important goal that
adults not exercise any influence over the learning process,"
I don't think I've ever seen an unschooler write this, or say this, or imply
it. You can't live with another person without influencing them (and this
works both ways, parent to child, child to parent, or spouse to spouse for
that matter). What have you seen written or heard said that makes you
think/feel this?
I hope I don't seem to be picking on you -- it's not my intent. But I find
it interesting (and sometimes frightening <g>) to see how ideas are
interpreted and passed on, and I'm curious about the root of the ideas
you've expressed.
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the interests of my kids. I would say that is the deciding factor - either a
child's interests are considered, or they aren't."
By that definition, we could say that if a child showed an interest in
whales and the parents then designed a curriculum very whale-intensive
(considering the interests of the child) and enforced it at the kitchen
table from 8 to 2 each weekday, it would be unschooling.
Interest is one thing, but for me unschooling is about choice: who decides
if to do it and when to do it and how to do it and why to do it and what to
do in the first place.
(Highly important caveat: this kind of statement often incites people to
say, "Well, if I just waited around for him to start doing linear algebra
we'd wait forever!" so I have to add: this doesn't mean I sit staring at the
child until she springs up like a performing seal, we just help our
daughters do what they want, occasionally to often offering things we think
they MIGHT want, and do that offering without prejudice -- i.e, we take no
for an answer and don't take that answer personally. We also -- and here
perhaps is the radical side of unschooling, or perhaps not -- don't have an
agenda. I don't sit up nights plotting things that will encourage Brit to
read, or Mikey to engage in arithmetics, or either of them to ground them in
the fundamentals of science and logic. Such schoolish agenda, however well
hidden from the children, seems to me -- though not necessarily to all
unschoolers -- to be contrary to unschooling in the first place.)
"It seems that for some people, it is also an equally important goal that
adults not exercise any influence over the learning process,"
I don't think I've ever seen an unschooler write this, or say this, or imply
it. You can't live with another person without influencing them (and this
works both ways, parent to child, child to parent, or spouse to spouse for
that matter). What have you seen written or heard said that makes you
think/feel this?
I hope I don't seem to be picking on you -- it's not my intent. But I find
it interesting (and sometimes frightening <g>) to see how ideas are
interpreted and passed on, and I'm curious about the root of the ideas
you've expressed.
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Amy
> Who does it hurt when people say they're unschooling but stillBecause it makes the word unschooling meaningless, if we don't have a
> coerce in
> some way?
common definition.
It's reminding me of all the threads I've read in the past few years trying
to define attachment parenting. People would define themselves as attachment
parents bc they do extended bfing and cosleep, but still spank, or still
circumcise, or still use disposable diapers. No one family does things
identically, but there are some common denominators. The word certainly
hasn't lost meaning because some people interpret it way too loosely.
Likewise, with this (absurd, I agree) accelerated unschooling, although the
children aren't 100% sovereign, their interests are being considered in ways
they would not be in school or school-at-home.
I guess I just don't think the whole thing is so fragile. I mean, worst case
scenario: Tens of thousands of families across the country are calling
themselves unschoolers yet coercing their children into unit studies. Oh
no!! I'll just start calling our home education "fully child-led learning."
or whatever.
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
> I guess I just don't think the whole thing is so fragile. I mean,It might be that folks like you and I wouldn't really be hurt by some
> worst case
> scenario: Tens of thousands of families across the country are
> calling
> themselves unschoolers yet coercing their children into unit
> studies. Oh
> no!! I'll just start calling our home education "fully child-led
> learning."
> or whatever.
watered down version of unschooling, but there are kids out there who's
parent are really struggling to find answers, who really need some way to
heal the hurt caused by school, or school at home.
After my father in law had a heart attack his doctor told him to change
his diet, no more fat, etc. His wife thought no more fat meant cooking
the bacon until it was crispy. Knowing the truth of what a thing is
makes a real difference.
I don't think watered down or rearranged versions of unschooling can work
like the real thing can. I think the string of failures, the -
unschooling doesn't work for my kids - that can and will come from such
versions can really hurt people who are desperate to find a better way
for their kids. What can you choose if school isn't good and school at
home didn't work and now everyone's saying unschooling can't work either?
I've been a vegetarian for thirty years. I can't just order the
vegetarian special at a restaurant because now everybody has a different
idea of what that word means. I might get fish, or a cheese omelette or
something. So now I'm vegan and I don't even like that word. I
wouldn't be wild about a group of folks coming along and saying vegan
means what ever you want it to, go ahead and stir fry those grubs, or
whatever. No, I wouldn't be happy at all.
And, if the local unschoolers organized a kids day at the park, (I'm
actually the only local (loco?) unschooler, but IF there were others)
I'd go expecting it to be a fun day of play and adventure. But if Boris
and Natasha showed up and decided to accelerate every kid there it'd be a
real shock, and NOT the fun unschooler's day I had pictured.
There are folks coming along the path behind us who's kids deserve the
life our kids are having right now and I worry that the wrong information
about what unschooling is could make all the difference in the world.
Deb L
Amy
It actually is pretty black and white, in my
mind anyway.
Yea, this pretty much sums it up. For me, it's not.
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mind anyway.
Yea, this pretty much sums it up. For me, it's not.
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sharon Rudd
Unschooling mixed with benign stuff = diluted
Unschooling mixed with toxic stuff = corrupted
Diluted and/or corrupted are not unschooling, they are
Dilutedunschooling and/or Corruptedunschooling.
Modifiedunschooling is something else, it isn't
unschooling.
Black and White :-)
Sharon of the Swamp
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com
Unschooling mixed with toxic stuff = corrupted
Diluted and/or corrupted are not unschooling, they are
Dilutedunschooling and/or Corruptedunschooling.
Modifiedunschooling is something else, it isn't
unschooling.
Black and White :-)
Sharon of the Swamp
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com
[email protected]
On Sat, 24 Aug 2002 16:40:51 -0700 "Amy" <listmail@...>
writes:
put in the position of making my kid do something. I don't want to be the
enforcer. The only time something like this has come up for us is when
Rain wanted me to "make her" go to bed at a certain time, so she's get
enough rest to do something early the next morning. I wouldn't agree to
make her go to sleep, but I did sit down with her and figure out what
time she'd have to fall asleep so that she would still get 8 hours of
sleep if she woke on time the next morning, and we came up with a time
about an hour earlier and set an alarm for that time, and I agreed to be
available to read to her and rub her back during that hour if she asked.
Those are the sorts of things I'm willing and happy to do. I don't think
it's so much about valueing noncoercion as it is about not wanting to
have that role, because once you become the enforcer you're on the
opposite side as the child (even if the child put you there) and you
become someone to outwit, or rebel against, and you also take on the
responsibility for the completion of the task. I don't want any of that.
Dar
writes:
> An example I recently heard was a parent whose child practicallyimplored
> them to "make her" follow through with some goal or other, because thechild
> knew she was likely to back down from the work when the time came, buttruly
> wanted to achieve the overall goal. I can't remember what the goalwas. It
> seemed to me that the parent's value of noncoercion was greater thanThis is veering off-topic a bit, but I would try really hard not to be
> her desire to help her child learn upon request.
>
put in the position of making my kid do something. I don't want to be the
enforcer. The only time something like this has come up for us is when
Rain wanted me to "make her" go to bed at a certain time, so she's get
enough rest to do something early the next morning. I wouldn't agree to
make her go to sleep, but I did sit down with her and figure out what
time she'd have to fall asleep so that she would still get 8 hours of
sleep if she woke on time the next morning, and we came up with a time
about an hour earlier and set an alarm for that time, and I agreed to be
available to read to her and rub her back during that hour if she asked.
Those are the sorts of things I'm willing and happy to do. I don't think
it's so much about valueing noncoercion as it is about not wanting to
have that role, because once you become the enforcer you're on the
opposite side as the child (even if the child put you there) and you
become someone to outwit, or rebel against, and you also take on the
responsibility for the completion of the task. I don't want any of that.
Dar
[email protected]
*** An example I recently heard was a parent whose child practically
implored
them to "make her" follow through with some goal or other, because the
child
knew she was likely to back down from the work when the time came, but
truly
wanted to achieve the overall goal.***
I would wonder if the child wanted to achieve the goal for her own
reasons or because she knew it would be pleasing to her mom. That would
be my first question, because I've never known anyone who needed to be
"made" to do something they really wanted to do.
I suppose people can put things off because they are afraid they will
fail or afraid they're not good enough. I don't see this as being a
problem for kids who are unschoolers, though maybe I'm wrong. And I
don't think it's the same as "backing down from the work." Backing down
from the work sound like what one does when the whole thing is just
unpleasant. I'm yammering.
I would hesitate to "make" anyone do anything even if they asked me to,
not because I'm devoted to being non coercive (you should see me trying
to get my mother out of Wal-mart) but because I think if they wanted the
thing truly, they wouldn't need the poke.
Deb L
implored
them to "make her" follow through with some goal or other, because the
child
knew she was likely to back down from the work when the time came, but
truly
wanted to achieve the overall goal.***
I would wonder if the child wanted to achieve the goal for her own
reasons or because she knew it would be pleasing to her mom. That would
be my first question, because I've never known anyone who needed to be
"made" to do something they really wanted to do.
I suppose people can put things off because they are afraid they will
fail or afraid they're not good enough. I don't see this as being a
problem for kids who are unschoolers, though maybe I'm wrong. And I
don't think it's the same as "backing down from the work." Backing down
from the work sound like what one does when the whole thing is just
unpleasant. I'm yammering.
I would hesitate to "make" anyone do anything even if they asked me to,
not because I'm devoted to being non coercive (you should see me trying
to get my mother out of Wal-mart) but because I think if they wanted the
thing truly, they wouldn't need the poke.
Deb L
Amy
-----Original Message-----
From: Pam Hartley [mailto:pamhartley@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 12:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Response and plea for mercy
So where would you draw the line, if at all, and at least think if not
say,
"that's not unschooling"?
I don't think I would draw a line. When I'm in my mind observing someone's
method, or reading a post, I usually don't think "that isn't unschooling,"
but I really might think "that sure doesn't seem to be working for them," or
"damn, that sounds like a lot of work for nothing."
:-)
For us, the most valuable aspect of our unschooling is that it is led by
the interests of my kids. I would say that is the deciding factor - either a
child's interests are considered, or they aren't.
It seems that for some people, it is also an equally important goal that
adults not exercise any influence over the learning process, which seems
rather impossible Of course, the degree to which we influence, and our
intentions, are very individual. Clearly, most of us aren't influencing to
the point of acceleration :P
But, there are a million shades of coercion - cajoling, reminding, nudging
and even the seemingly benign cooperative goal-setting. Personally, I am not
sure total non-coercion wrt learning is ideal for every kid and family,
although my kids are still very young and it's working nicely here.
Unfooding, unbedding, unruling, and so forth can be a very obvious extension
of unschooling, but I guess I see the coercion aspect on a spectrum.
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Pam Hartley [mailto:pamhartley@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 12:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Response and plea for mercy
So where would you draw the line, if at all, and at least think if not
say,
"that's not unschooling"?
I don't think I would draw a line. When I'm in my mind observing someone's
method, or reading a post, I usually don't think "that isn't unschooling,"
but I really might think "that sure doesn't seem to be working for them," or
"damn, that sounds like a lot of work for nothing."
:-)
For us, the most valuable aspect of our unschooling is that it is led by
the interests of my kids. I would say that is the deciding factor - either a
child's interests are considered, or they aren't.
It seems that for some people, it is also an equally important goal that
adults not exercise any influence over the learning process, which seems
rather impossible Of course, the degree to which we influence, and our
intentions, are very individual. Clearly, most of us aren't influencing to
the point of acceleration :P
But, there are a million shades of coercion - cajoling, reminding, nudging
and even the seemingly benign cooperative goal-setting. Personally, I am not
sure total non-coercion wrt learning is ideal for every kid and family,
although my kids are still very young and it's working nicely here.
Unfooding, unbedding, unruling, and so forth can be a very obvious extension
of unschooling, but I guess I see the coercion aspect on a spectrum.
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Hartley
"Would you agree that it is the goal
of many unschoolers to never coerce their children in matters pertaining to
learning?"
I don't think of this as a goal.
My *goal* is for the four people in this house to live happy and fun-filled,
joy-filled lives.
Not coercing my children (or husband) in matters pertaining to learning is
just a side effect of that goal.
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
of many unschoolers to never coerce their children in matters pertaining to
learning?"
I don't think of this as a goal.
My *goal* is for the four people in this house to live happy and fun-filled,
joy-filled lives.
Not coercing my children (or husband) in matters pertaining to learning is
just a side effect of that goal.
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Amy
By that definition, we could say that if a child showed an interest in
whales and the parents then designed a curriculum very whale-intensive
You're right - that would not seem to me like unschooling. However, I
really wasn't *defining* unschooling. I'm not interested in doing that. (If
I were being asked to go speak at conferences, I guess I'd have to pin that
down ;-) What I was trying to say is that for me the *greater emphasis* is
on being interest-led. Now I think I would like to add, also respect. The
scenario you presented would not be respectful at all; however, I've seen
parents make requirements of kids wrt learning in a way that is much more
respectful, cooperative and spare.
Interest is one thing, but for me unschooling is about choice: who decides
if to do it and when to do it and how to do it and why to do it and what
to
do in the first place.
Oh, this is really helping me clarify. Choice is good. For me, I think
respect is the most important goal. I'll let someone else define respect.
"It seems that for some people, it is also an equally important goal that
adults not exercise any influence over the learning process,"
I don't think I've ever seen an unschooler write this, or say this, or
imply
it. You can't live with another person without influencing them (and this
works both ways, parent to child, child to parent, or spouse to spouse for
that matter). What have you seen written or heard said that makes you
think/feel this?
An example I recently heard was a parent whose child practically implored
them to "make her" follow through with some goal or other, because the child
knew she was likely to back down from the work when the time came, but truly
wanted to achieve the overall goal. I can't remember what the goal was. It
seemed to me that the parent's value of noncoercion was greater than her
desire to help her child learn upon request.
Perhaps 'influence' is the wrong word. Would you agree that it is the goal
of many unschoolers to never coerce their children in matters pertaining to
learning? IMO, this influence that we all have over each other is on the
same spectrum as coercion, and there are many shades of gray between.
I hope I don't seem to be picking on you -- it's not my intent. But I find
it interesting (and sometimes frightening <g>) to see how ideas are
interpreted and passed on, and I'm curious about the root of the ideas
you've expressed.
Oh, no - you don't seem to be picking on me. In general, this list doesn't
give me the feeling that it's safe to post things in disagreement, so I'm
pleased to get responses like yours that are thoughtful without the barbs.
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
whales and the parents then designed a curriculum very whale-intensive
You're right - that would not seem to me like unschooling. However, I
really wasn't *defining* unschooling. I'm not interested in doing that. (If
I were being asked to go speak at conferences, I guess I'd have to pin that
down ;-) What I was trying to say is that for me the *greater emphasis* is
on being interest-led. Now I think I would like to add, also respect. The
scenario you presented would not be respectful at all; however, I've seen
parents make requirements of kids wrt learning in a way that is much more
respectful, cooperative and spare.
Interest is one thing, but for me unschooling is about choice: who decides
if to do it and when to do it and how to do it and why to do it and what
to
do in the first place.
Oh, this is really helping me clarify. Choice is good. For me, I think
respect is the most important goal. I'll let someone else define respect.
"It seems that for some people, it is also an equally important goal that
adults not exercise any influence over the learning process,"
I don't think I've ever seen an unschooler write this, or say this, or
imply
it. You can't live with another person without influencing them (and this
works both ways, parent to child, child to parent, or spouse to spouse for
that matter). What have you seen written or heard said that makes you
think/feel this?
An example I recently heard was a parent whose child practically implored
them to "make her" follow through with some goal or other, because the child
knew she was likely to back down from the work when the time came, but truly
wanted to achieve the overall goal. I can't remember what the goal was. It
seemed to me that the parent's value of noncoercion was greater than her
desire to help her child learn upon request.
Perhaps 'influence' is the wrong word. Would you agree that it is the goal
of many unschoolers to never coerce their children in matters pertaining to
learning? IMO, this influence that we all have over each other is on the
same spectrum as coercion, and there are many shades of gray between.
I hope I don't seem to be picking on you -- it's not my intent. But I find
it interesting (and sometimes frightening <g>) to see how ideas are
interpreted and passed on, and I'm curious about the root of the ideas
you've expressed.
Oh, no - you don't seem to be picking on me. In general, this list doesn't
give me the feeling that it's safe to post things in disagreement, so I'm
pleased to get responses like yours that are thoughtful without the barbs.
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
caroln_1999
I think one of the best reasons to argue/discuss the meaning of
unschooling is because people (like, perhaps, our accelerated
friends) will end up saying, oh, we tried traditional unschooling and
it didn't work for us. One can't even begin to understand what didn't
work for them until you understand what they mean when they use
the term. I suspect it wasn't unschooling at all since accelerated
unschooling seems to have more in common with unit studies than
unschooling.
BTW, at the end of the recent conference someone who had just learned
about unschooling mentioned that other name by which it is referred
to, unit studies. I felt it was important to point out that they are
not the same thing.
And another mom I know, who says she is an unschooler, mentioned to me
back in June that they had finished up a week before public school
ended and were starting their summer early because she really needed
the break. How could we even have a meaningful conversation if we
didn't start by coming to an understanding about what our terms mean?
Carolyn
unschooling is because people (like, perhaps, our accelerated
friends) will end up saying, oh, we tried traditional unschooling and
it didn't work for us. One can't even begin to understand what didn't
work for them until you understand what they mean when they use
the term. I suspect it wasn't unschooling at all since accelerated
unschooling seems to have more in common with unit studies than
unschooling.
BTW, at the end of the recent conference someone who had just learned
about unschooling mentioned that other name by which it is referred
to, unit studies. I felt it was important to point out that they are
not the same thing.
And another mom I know, who says she is an unschooler, mentioned to me
back in June that they had finished up a week before public school
ended and were starting their summer early because she really needed
the break. How could we even have a meaningful conversation if we
didn't start by coming to an understanding about what our terms mean?
Carolyn
--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., freeform@j... wrote:
>
> On Sat, 24 Aug 2002 12:45:52 -0700 "Amy" <listmail@w...>
> writes:
> > Who does it hurt when people say they're unschooling but still
> > coerce in
> > some way?
>
> Because it makes the word unschooling meaningless, if we don't have
a
> common definition.
>
> Dar