gruvystarchild

"I wonder why I feel so negative about this?"

I totally understand. There's an apprehension when you know how
another person runs things and you're going to be involved being
totally aware that it's not going to fit your philosophies.
We signed up for a snake "unit study" with a small group of 4 or 5
other families about three years ago. This was before I was totally
unschooling, but still had those philosophies. I'd say we were more
eclectic/relaxed homeschoolers.
I msut have seemed like an unschooler to them because I wouldn't make
my kids do all the stuff the other kids were getting rammed down
their throats.
How it turned out, was I let my kids take from it what they enjoyed
and not do the rest. I didn't let them be disruptive to the other
members during things they didn't want to do, but they understood.
It turned into this awful class style, so to counter that I just told
my kids to wait patiently for a fun activity and if they could just
be quiet enough for the others participating that was enough.
While several moms got up and did a "report" (lecture) on a
particular snake, the kids were supposed to take notes and at the end
they'd have this snake journal.
Well my boys were 6 and 9 at the time and not even vaguely interested
in taking notes. So they didn't. This really pissed off a first year
homeschooler that is SUPER controlling.
So then the art project for the day......
They were supposed to make a particular snake, not just do art for
the sake of fun. My boys whispered "do we have to do it like she says
Mom?" I replied of course not, it's your project and art is about
doint what you enjoy, do whatever kind of snake thingy you want.
Well, Trevor was getting into his project, totally enjoying himself
and obviously NOT making the snake they were supposed to, when she
comes along and informs him he's doing it wrong.
His reply?
"My Mom said we could do whatever we wanted."
OOOOOH! You should have seen the glares I got at that point. I mean,
if my child could do what he wanted, that really messes up the
thoughtless following process the other kids were doing. ugh.
After the class, I did explain to her why I told them that and shared
some of our homeschooling philosophies. She was totally confused.
Another Mom explained the Charlotte Mason method and helped her
understand a bit more. She didn't get it to say the least, but
strangely enough, she's lost some of her rough edges and we still
stay in touch. She understands how I homeschool and would never dream
of encroaching on that again, but she still thinks I'm a bubble short
of plumb!

The point is (there really is one, I swear) is that you can
participate in these things and gain from them. As long as your kids
stay interested and have fun, don't worry about it. Yes, do it right
along with them. If there is something they don't want to do, don't
make them. Or adapt it. Like the art project we "adapted"....if you
let them do the activities in their own way, even if it wasn't
exactly what the leader envisioned, they will get something out of it.

Personally, I would love to take the class!!! It sounds awesome. I
just might do my own version here.
Any time I can combine History and food, I'm a happy camper.


Ren

homeschoolmd

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., "gruvystarchild" <starsuncloud@c...>
wrote:
>>>>> While several moms got up and did a "report" (lecture) on a
> particular snake, the kids were supposed to take notes and at the
end
> they'd have this snake journal.
> Well my boys were 6 and 9 at the time and not even vaguely
interested
> in taking notes.>>>>

Oh Ren, this class sounds just like your snake class. Each mother is
supposed to be responsible for giving at least two lectures and the
kids are supposed to take notes, because of course they *need* to
learn how to take notes.

I was also told by one of the moms participating in the class that
the woman organizing it has said she feels it is important that all
the kids do what is asked of them.

Given some of this additional information, I feel I should ask the
mom organizing the class if she would still want Allison and Virginia
to participate if they decide not to do some of the assignments or
the note taking.

I would hope that homeschoolers as well as public schoolers would be
tolerant of the beliefs that unschoolers have about learning just
like most people are tolerant of different religious beliefs.

Pat

Peggy

Ren wrote:

>> "I wonder why I feel so negative about this?"

> The point is (there really is one, I swear) is that you can
> participate in these things and gain from them. As long as your kids
> stay interested and have fun, don't worry about it. Yes, do it right
> along with them. If there is something they don't want to do, don't
> make them. Or adapt it. Like the art project we "adapted"....if you
> let them do the activities in their own way, even if it wasn't
> exactly what the leader envisioned, they will get something out of it.


Really, really good points Ren. This whole situation reminds me of how
homeschooling is portrayed in the _Monster in the Attic_ book series. We got
them from the library because we heard there were had a homeschooled main
character. My oldest read them pretty fast, one after another and I read them
aloud to my seven year old. Book after book described painful and coercive
learning experiences just as you have described. It was excruciating to read
them aloud! My youngest liked them because she really liked the idea of
stuffed animals coming alive (the best part of the books) but the homeschool
stuff was just awful.

>
> Personally, I would love to take the class!!! It sounds awesome. I
> just might do my own version here.
> Any time I can combine History and food, I'm a happy camper.
>
>
> Ren

Yeah!

Peggy

Nanci Kuykendall

>Oh Ren, this class sounds just like your snake
>class. Each mother is supposed to be responsible for
>giving at least two lectures and the kids are
>supposed to take notes, because of course they *need*
>to learn how to take notes.

...snip> the woman organizing it has said she feels it
>is important that all the kids do what is asked of
>them.

>I would hope that homeschoolers as well as public
>schoolers would be tolerant of the beliefs that
>unschoolers have about learning just like most people
>are tolerant of different religious beliefs.
>Pat

Oh Icky Pat. I can see why you are leery of this.
Personally I would not do it. It sounds like the IDEA
would be a lot of fun, but I am not the type of person
who enjoys or deals well with conflict and stress.
Something about too much of it in my life previously.
I would probably be more inclined to create our OWN
activities and invite the others to come to them, so I
didn't feel like I was invading someone else's show
and raining on their parade.

Let me see..., I might put together a play or musical
presentation as a "Journey Down the Silk Road" and
invite them to attend or participate, seperate from
the class. Or I might hold a dinner where each family
brings an appropriate dish, and I make several, and
have fun activities and tidbits of information, music,
bolts of silk of different types out, other trade
goods, etc. My parents have been involved with
gourmet clubs for 30 years, where they hold pot luck
dinners that are culturally thematic. They decorate
and research, cook and eat lots of exotic,
wonderfully, ethnic foods. They do detailed
historical/cultural menus which are mailed out before
the event and the hosting family asks each
participating family to bring a certain dish from the
menu and recipes sent out. This is all adults, but
they sure learn a lot about various cultural menus and
dining styles. Maybe I would begin a Silk Roads
Gourmet Club, for kids AND adults, and get
participants to take turns hosting dinners once a
month or so from different regions along the Silk
Road, including other cultural/fun elements besides
food, like everyone bringing or wearing an example of
a trade item found along the silk road.

Perhaps I would put together an activity trunk to
share with others at a Silk Roads Picnic or play day.
I might research games that children and adults along
the Silk Road played, and share those, maybe have an
activity making some of the games. Trips to arts
museums and cultural performances which are from those
regions would be a fantastic thing to do with others,
if such is available in your area. I am sure that
given time I could think of other ways to participate
and get a lot out of it without interfering with their
"schedule" or their "plan" for their "class." That is
how I would hope to show them that there is another
way to approach the subject, or study in general.

I don't like to get involved in things where I set out
knowing I will cause a problem and not be appreciated
or welcome. I would rather host my own thing, and
invite others to come, than to go to an activity where
I will be uncomfortable and will make others
uncomfortable. I would hope that others would be more
tolerant as well, but that is often not the case. I
prefer a more gentle approach for expanding acceptance
and changing minds and hearts, unless of course I feel
that someone invaded MY party and was raining on MY
parade with their intolerance and control. Then I
will fight like a cornered wolverine.

No matter what you decide to do, check out Dharma
Trading.
http://www.dharmatrading.com/
They have wholesale silk in several weights and
textures available pretty cheap.

Have fun and good luck.

Nanci K.

[email protected]

OOOH! You could fantasize with your kids about how to realistically
(historically-accurate fantasies, I mean by "realistic") interact with the
Silk Road class without being in it.

You could race them. You could make a map and put pins in it for everything
you learn or connect to it between now and when they're done. You could
watch videos about the places (some modern) and times (some other places).
You could find travellers' accounts of Europeans in the Middle East and Asia
from that period and get some great trivia and flavor.

You could find all applicable restaurants in your town so you could do a food
tour without having to cook yourselves.

You could ambush the class!! <g> Come wrapped up like caravan robbers.
Bring your documentation.

I wonder if they're doing music? I have friends who do Turkish and other
Middle Eastern music. A group called Sazlar. They have CDs at
http://sazlar.com/recordings.html


Sandra

dabejorysmom

Oooh! Nanci, can I come to your activities? It sounds wonderful. If I
were more ambitious, and had more resources I would do something like
that here. Maybe once I get to know some more of the homeschoolers
here, I can suggest something like this. We just moved here this
summer.

-Suzanna

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., Nanci Kuykendall <aisliin@y...> wrote:
> >Oh Ren, this class sounds just like your snake
> >class. Each mother is supposed to be responsible for
> >giving at least two lectures and the kids are
> >supposed to take notes, because of course they *need*
> >to learn how to take notes.
>
> ...snip> the woman organizing it has said she feels it
> >is important that all the kids do what is asked of
> >them.
>
> >I would hope that homeschoolers as well as public
> >schoolers would be tolerant of the beliefs that
> >unschoolers have about learning just like most people
> >are tolerant of different religious beliefs.
> >Pat
>
> Oh Icky Pat. I can see why you are leery of this.
> Personally I would not do it. It sounds like the IDEA
> would be a lot of fun, but I am not the type of person
> who enjoys or deals well with conflict and stress.
> Something about too much of it in my life previously.
> I would probably be more inclined to create our OWN
> activities and invite the others to come to them, so I
> didn't feel like I was invading someone else's show
> and raining on their parade.
>
> Let me see..., I might put together a play or musical
> presentation as a "Journey Down the Silk Road" and
> invite them to attend or participate, seperate from
> the class. Or I might hold a dinner where each family
> brings an appropriate dish, and I make several, and
> have fun activities and tidbits of information, music,
> bolts of silk of different types out, other trade
> goods, etc. My parents have been involved with
> gourmet clubs for 30 years, where they hold pot luck
> dinners that are culturally thematic. They decorate
> and research, cook and eat lots of exotic,
> wonderfully, ethnic foods. They do detailed
> historical/cultural menus which are mailed out before
> the event and the hosting family asks each
> participating family to bring a certain dish from the
> menu and recipes sent out. This is all adults, but
> they sure learn a lot about various cultural menus and
> dining styles. Maybe I would begin a Silk Roads
> Gourmet Club, for kids AND adults, and get
> participants to take turns hosting dinners once a
> month or so from different regions along the Silk
> Road, including other cultural/fun elements besides
> food, like everyone bringing or wearing an example of
> a trade item found along the silk road.
>
> Perhaps I would put together an activity trunk to
> share with others at a Silk Roads Picnic or play day.
> I might research games that children and adults along
> the Silk Road played, and share those, maybe have an
> activity making some of the games. Trips to arts
> museums and cultural performances which are from those
> regions would be a fantastic thing to do with others,
> if such is available in your area. I am sure that
> given time I could think of other ways to participate
> and get a lot out of it without interfering with their
> "schedule" or their "plan" for their "class." That is
> how I would hope to show them that there is another
> way to approach the subject, or study in general.
>
> I don't like to get involved in things where I set out
> knowing I will cause a problem and not be appreciated
> or welcome. I would rather host my own thing, and
> invite others to come, than to go to an activity where
> I will be uncomfortable and will make others
> uncomfortable. I would hope that others would be more
> tolerant as well, but that is often not the case. I
> prefer a more gentle approach for expanding acceptance
> and changing minds and hearts, unless of course I feel
> that someone invaded MY party and was raining on MY
> parade with their intolerance and control. Then I
> will fight like a cornered wolverine.
>
> No matter what you decide to do, check out Dharma
> Trading.
> http://www.dharmatrading.com/
> They have wholesale silk in several weights and
> textures available pretty cheap.
>
> Have fun and good luck.
>
> Nanci K.

Nancy Wooton

on 8/8/02 1:49 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> I wonder if they're doing music? I have friends who do Turkish and other
> Middle Eastern music. A group called Sazlar. They have CDs at
> http://sazlar.com/recordings.html

Did you listen at the site I posted?

From my post of Aug. 5:

You could check out the music from China -- YoYo Ma spearheaded a new
recording called "The Silk Road: A Musical Caravan." See
http://www.folkways.si.edu/catalog/40438.htm
The CD is packed with information about the people who now live along the
Silk Road, too.

Nancy

Sharon Rudd

The local "group", previously named "Home Educators of
Hilliard, changed its name to Circle of Friends to
accomodate me and Roy :-) Some progress....thanks in a
large part to the Christian Uschooling links ya'll
posted. Thanks.

......is doing a "School year kick off party" with a
Hawaian theme....in Florida :-) The drink is to be
Hawaian punch.....from Walmart. There will be
presententions on specific subjects (export products,
dress, year Hawaii became a state, Hula)...50 napkins,
50 paper plates, 80 cups... There will be arts and
crafts (if I had volunteered to do it..how about
Hawaiin reverse aplique quilts?) only if time allows
(so of course I didn't volunteer) nor did I RSVP. This
has been the meat of the Mother's Nights Out for the
summer. No kids allowed at Mother's Night Out. Mothers
planned the assignments, went home and passed out the
assignments.

I'm not going becuase I'm afraid my social-skills have
lapsed to the point that I would smirk...or cry, one.
I'm still a hermit.

Roy is going camping with DH in Tennessee next week.
The "party" is next week. :-)

Sharon of the Swamp





__________________________________________________
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[email protected]

On Fri, 9 Aug 2002 18:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Sharon Rudd
<bearspawprint@...> writes:

> This
> has been the meat of the Mother's Nights Out for the
> summer. No kids allowed at Mother's Night Out. Mothers
> planned the assignments, went home and passed out the
> assignments.

There's something creepy weird about a group of mommys getting together
to decide what all their kids will do.

The homeschool group here (now most of those kids are in ps) used to do
the moms night out, and plan some wicked homeschool thingy without any of
the kids.
Dylan was four and I didn't know what unschooling was, but I knew it
wasn't THAT. Yeeks.

> I'm not going because I'm afraid my social-skills have
> lapsed to the point that I would smirk...or cry, one.
> I'm still a hermit.

We like your social skill just fine. = )
Some situations call for the smirk, after all.

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/9/02 10:22:26 PM, ddzimlew@... writes:

<< There's something creepy weird about a group of mommys getting together
to decide what all their kids will do. >>

See how far you've moved into unschooling beliefs??

I remember once when my oldest was just six or seven, someone came onto a
discussion list just bubbly with enthusiasm. Giddy. And she assured
someone else with feeling, "You will be your child's only teacher!!"

She saw that as a great and joyous advantage.

That was creepy weird to me even then, but as my kids get older and I'm not
even 1/4 of their source of information, I think how small their lives had
been if they'd been dependent on me for everything they knew. Or even me and
another group of homeschooling moms!

It takes a while to move from that "let's play school" or "we can do school
better" mindset, and some don't have sufficient tether of mind to get that
far. Then some cut the tether and fly away.


For a small local conference in a few weeks, there will be a panel
discussion. They don't have a heavy curriculum-user for the panel. I
suggested they either not bother to look for one at all, or try to find one
who had used a curriculum happily for at least ten years. I don't think
there are such people. There might be, but "happily"?

I said if they don't find one one of us can just remind them that if they're
interested in a curriculum a salesman will be happy to spend two hours
extolling its virtues.

Sandra

Carol Brown

>
>
>
>On Fri, 9 Aug 2002 18:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Sharon Rudd
><bearspawprint@...> writes:
>
>>This
>>has been the meat of the Mother's Nights Out for the
>>summer. No kids allowed at Mother's Night Out. Mothers
>>planned the assignments, went home and passed out the
>>assignments.
>>
>
>There's something creepy weird about a group of mommys getting together
>to decide what all their kids will do.
>
The parents of my local 'group' - get together for chat and play about
once a month at someone's house if it's wet or cold, on the beach if
it's fine, so not really a Group, just a 'group' - discovered that on
Wednesday nights between 5 and 7pm in winter most of us have our kids
either at badminton or karate so we decided to hold West Coast
Homeschoolers Executive Meetings on some of those nights, meeting at a
local cafe. It was a bit unnerving for the new to the district
unschooling mum. We talked about homebirths and homeopathy and books and
sex and music and knitting and felt making and book binding and cooking
and eventually she asked about the meeting... We told her that this was
it, but that if any money was found on the floor she had to hand it over
to me as I had bagsed the job of treasurer in order to spend any such
found monies on another round of coffee and brownies <g> She relaxed
after that <g>

Carol



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nanci Kuykendall

>Oooh! Nanci, can I come to your activities? It sounds
>wonderful. If I were more ambitious, and had more
>resources I would do something like that here. Maybe
>once I get to know some more of the homeschoolers
>here, I can suggest something like this. We just
>moved here this summer.
>-Suzanna

LOL, well it sure would be great to have enthusiastic
participants. We just moved early this Spring into a
new area ourselves. My kids are also a bit young to
be involved in these kinds of activities. I would
certainly persue them if my kids were older, and after
we have met other homeschoolers in the area and had
some folks to invite to our events and activities.

Right now we are focusing on movie making. I think my
older son will go into the movie industry. He has an
electric passion for movies. He adores DVDs with all
the "Making of.." and "Behind the scenes" special
features. He creates whole sets with blocks and
people/animal toys and then plays out scenes complete
with dialogue and names for his actors and the
characters thay are playing. He is very decisive
about exactly HOW everyone should move and who should
say what (Director??) We have long discussion which
mainly consist of answering his myriad questions. I
don't like going to the theater with him because he
talks through the entire movie, asking questions. But
I still take him.

I help him search online for movie information, film
websites, and etc. I play movie trailers for him, and
interviews with the actors. I play fanfilm parodies.
One of his favorites is TROOPS, which is done like
COPS with Storm Troopers: "On location with the men of
the Imperial Forces. All suspects are GUILTY!
Otherwise they wouldn't be suspect would they?"

Right now he is on a Lord of the Rings kick, since we
bought the first DVD. In November, when the special 4
disc edition with all the extra footage and more
special features comes out, we will get that as well.


With my younger son, we are finding all sorts of ways
to practice letters and words, since that is what he
is interested in. He also has a passion for trains,
so we try to get him books, videos and other media on
the subject.

If my kids were a few years older I would do the Silk
Road thing, in fact, maybe I will file that away for
later on. Right now their sense of history and
geography is severely limited by their inability to
have a real understanding of space and time.
Yesterday is a long time ago, and next week is an
eterniity. Their cousin's house (5 hours away) is a
place they want to stop at after we go to the market,
and they are disappointed when I say it is too far.

Nanci K.

[email protected]

I just found this list on my old computer. It was made for a workshop on the
Middle Ages--an online unschooling discussion on how to introduce kids to the
Middle Ages and to discover how much you the parent already know and how easy
it is to learn more.

I looked, and it doesn't have "silk road," so add that to it <g> and consider
putting it out on your kitchen table or somewhere where people will see it
and just see how many connections might be made or questions asked!

If you made a list like this for every topic in the world, pretty soon you
would have already named everything in the world, and the lists would be
overlapping like crazy! Everything on here is worthy of PhD work, or a
life's work, or museum construction and maintenance, or all of the above.

alchemy
Alfred the Great
Angles
Anglo-Saxons
Antony of Padua
Arabia
arabic numerals
architecture
armor
Arnold Von Winkelried
art
astrolabe
astrology
astronomy
backgammon, history
Baghdad
ballads
barbarian
bards
Bayeaux Tapestry
beer/brewing
bells
Benedictines/St. Benedict
Beowulf
Black Death
blackwork embroidery
Blessed John Duns Scotus
block printing
bookmaking
books of hours
Bordeaux
Botticelli
Britain
Bruegel
Byzantium, Byzantine
Calais
calendar
caliph
calligraphy
Cambridge
Canterbury Cathedral
Canterbury Tales
Canute
cards /dice
Carthage
cartography
castles
cathedrals
Caxton
Celts
Charlemagne
Charles Martel
Chaucer
chess
Children's Crusade
chivalry
Christianity
Christmas / Yule/ history of...
clinker-built ships
clocks
Cloisters (Metropolitan Museum)
clothing
Clovis
Code of Justinian
coins
Constantinople
courtiers
Coverdale
Crusades
dance
Danelaw
Domesday Book
Dover Castle
drama
duels
Durer
effigies
El Cid
England
Eric the Red
Essex
Ethelred
explorers
fairs
falconry
fealty
feasts
feudalism
flags (historical)
fowlers
France
frescoes
Gaelic
Galileo
Gaul
Geoffrey Plantagenet
glass blowing
Gothic (architecture, art, whatever)
Greenland
Gregory/chants
guilds
Gutenberg
Hastings, Battle of
heraldry
Holy Roman Empire
homage
horses
Hundred Years War
Iceland
illuminated manuscripts
Inquisition
Islam
Italy
jesters
Joan of Arc
juggling
Jutes
Kells, Book of
King Arthur
Kings and Queens (and by name)
knighthood
law/courts/English Common Law
Leif Ericson
Leonardo da Vinci
leprosy
Lindisfarne Gospels
Lisle Letters
Lombards
London
Magna Carta
mail (armor)/ chain mail
mail / chainmail
maps
Marco Polo
masques
maypole
mead
Medici (or de Medici)
Michaelangelo
mining
minstrels
miracle plays
monasticism
Moorish Spain
mummers plays
musical instruments (lute, harp, recorder)
navigation
Norman (architecture, art, whatever)
Normandy
Norsemen
Norway
organs
Oxford
pageants
painting
Palestine
Paston Letters
peasants
perspective (art meets math)
pilgrimage
plague
Pope Celestine V
portraits
printing
Punch and Judy
Raphael
religious orders/religious houses
revels
Rhein
Robin Hood (tales, ballads)
Roger Bacon
Roman Catholic Church
Romanesque (architecture, art, whatever)
sagas
Saint Peter’s Basilica
Saracens
Saxons
Scandinavia
Seine (River Seine)
serfs
ships
siege
spice routes/spice trade
St. Anthony,
St. Bonaventure
St. Clare
St. Dominic
St. Edmund of Canterbury
St. Elizabeth of Hungary
St. Ferdinand
St. Francis of Assisi
St. George (the dragon one)
St. Hugh of Lincoln
St. Patrick
St. Thomas Aquinas
St. Thomas of Alquin, Dominican
stained glass windows
standing stones / mile markers
stirrups
Sutton Hoo
tapestries
Thames (The River Thames)
The Venerable Bede
theatre
Thomas Becket
tournaments
troubadors
Tyndale
vassals
Vatican
Vikings
Vinland
War of the Roses
Warwick the Kingmaker
weapons
weaving
Westminister Abbey
William Tell
wine
woodcuts / block prints

[email protected]

>See how far you've moved into unschooling beliefs??


I think when Dylan was four or so we had a discussion about learning. My
husband noticed how Dylan would just take his plate to the sink after
dinner, just get up and do it, without being asked. We talked then about
the possibility that everything could be learned that way, by just living
and participating and being involved. We decided not to cram "school"
work down his throat. We were such radicals! <G>

Now it seems funny to me when I hear unschoolers assign household chores
to their kids, because the observation about household stuff is what led
us to wondering about all the rest. I suppose there is some point where
trusting math and reading can be learned without a curriculum leads those
folks to believing house work can be learned without chores. Maybe we
were just backwards.

But it's true, we just keep sinking further and further into this belief.
Happily.

My friend who will be teaching science this year, his first, in Arkansas
called and was talking about workshops he had just attended for classroom
management.
How he's supposed to spend the first week introducing his students to his
rules and procedures and how he learned how to talk to teenagers. The
way he was talking would make anyone think none of these kids were from
planet Earth.
He really wants to stress to them how there is a procedure for everything
and when you follow the procedure you achieve success.
Kind of sad.

Deb L

[email protected]

What a great list...
We added the silk road and trebuchets (since one is being built in our
garage ) and the mangonel and crossbows. Can you tell we're unschooling
weapons these days?

I'm wondering about carrier pigeons...Were they used before the middle
ages??

Deb L, who's happily pausing on the list at beer...

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/11/02 3:10:16 PM, ddzimlew@... writes:

<< I think when Dylan was four or so we had a discussion about learning. My
husband noticed how Dylan would just take his plate to the sink after
dinner, just get up and do it, without being asked. We talked then about
the possibility that everything could be learned that way, by just living
and participating and being involved. We decided not to cram "school"
work down his throat. We were such radicals! <G> >>

HEY!
I hadn't really thought about it this way, but before we even though of
homeschooling, we knew that Kirby AND Marty had learned to say please and
thank you just because Keith and I always said it to them and to each other.
Even before we had kids, before we lived together, during, always...

Also we were already letting them eat whatever and whenever, and we never
made them clean their plates or any of that. It was when I was pregnant with
Holly that we went to Disneyland and hung around with grown childless friends
there and ordered pie as soon as we got in the restaurant. They told us the
kids wouldn't eat other food if they ate pie. PSHAW!! They will, we said,
and this will keep them happy and we can stay here longer.

Yep. They ate pie a while, and then ate chicken and vegetables for dessert!!

And THEN after we had that confidence we figured we'd keep Kirby home instead
of sending him to kindergarten, and the next year our options would be:
send him to first grade if he wanted to go
keep homeschooling if it was going well
send him to kindergarten

Tadaaa!!

Thanks for jogging my memory about the order things happened with us!

I had read an article in Mothering Magazine long ago that said if you let
kids choose their own foods you avoid all the trauma and eating disorders. I
think they are absolutely correct.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/11/02 4:03:36 PM, ddzimlew@... writes:

<< I'm wondering about carrier pigeons...Were they used before the middle
ages?? >>

Well?
Didn't you check on google?

*sigh...*
I hate good questions I don't know the answer to!

No, that's not true. I really kinda like them!! <g>

Sandra

kayb85

In theory it seems to make sense, but now that I'm doing it I have my
doubts. My three year old has been eating nothing but junk food all
day. Today he ate...a few breadsticks in the morning. Nothing but
soda to drink all day. A few bites of pizza for lunch, a pack of
cupcakes. Supper, a few bites of noodles and one bite of carrot.
He'll probably want cookies tonight. I don't know, it just doesn't
seem healthy enough.

Sheila

> I had read an article in Mothering Magazine long ago that said if
you let
> kids choose their own foods you avoid all the trauma and eating
disorders. I
> think they are absolutely correct.
>
> Sandra

[email protected]

>Well?
>Didn't you check on google?

Hmm. I just typed the question and left. Like a hit and run. I went to
my mom in laws and ate pizza and when I came home, here was the answer in
my in box. You're way better than google.

Thanks!

Deb L

Pam Hartley

----------
From: "kayb85" <sheran@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Hawaii Theme Back to School Party
Date: Sun, Aug 11, 2002, 4:54 PM


In theory it seems to make sense, but now that I'm doing it I have my
doubts. My three year old has been eating nothing but junk food all
day. Today he ate...a few breadsticks in the morning. Nothing but
soda to drink all day. A few bites of pizza for lunch, a pack of
cupcakes. Supper, a few bites of noodles and one bite of carrot.
He'll probably want cookies tonight. I don't know, it just doesn't
seem healthy enough.

Sheila
----------



Some people think that if the kids don't eat the way the Super Perky
Nutritionists on Television claim we should all eat, they are not eating
food that is "healthy enough".

Some people think that if the kids don't study subject categories in the
approved order at the approved age, they are not learning "enough".

You provide the healthful choices alongside the
not-quite-so-fooditically-correct choices, without comment or critique, and
IMHO your child will eat what he needs along with what he wants.

Breadsticks, noodles, a bit of carrot, and some pizza... those are pretty
good foods. The cupcakes and cookies? Well, they provide some calories for
energy and taste swell, and the surest way I know to make them craved and
gobbled is to deny them or limit them.

In my freezer at this moment are a box of Push Up ice cream thingies and a
box of Ice Cream Sandwiches -- both half full. Some weeks, they'd already be
gone, but these have been half-full for at least 10 days. I'll have to throw
them out soon.

My children often eat in cycles. One day, it was nothing but apples. <g>
THAT one worried me. I was afraid they'd been taken over by fruit-loving
Body Snatchers, especially the youngest, who has eaten no fruit before or
since, yet... still lives. ;)

Pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

***I had read an article in Mothering Magazine long ago that said if you
let
kids choose their own foods you avoid all the trauma and eating
disorders. I
think they are absolutely correct.***

Yes. I think it's only when your parents are weird about foods that you
end up that way yourself. Dylan eats just whatever he wants and he's
healthy and active and makes wise food choices. He's never once been
sick on food either, never eaten so much of something he made himself
ill. This was a problem with my nieces in a house where treats were
rationed and sparse.

Deb L

Joylyn

But see, where is he getting the soda? My kids get soda, if we go out
to eat or something, but at home, the choices are more limited--often to
water. Gatorade if it's really hot, as it's been. I just don't buy
cupcakes, cookies and such. I don't care if they eat them but we don't
have the financial resources to waste on low nutrition, high calorie
junk food. Of course, each kid usually gets a treat when we go shopping
and Lexie choose tastycakes, and Janene picked out chips, but tonight we
had salmon baked with cherries, shrimp sautéed with garlic, home grown
squash sautéed with garlic, and potatoes and brocoli, oven baked.
Janene ate about 10 shrimp and some salmon and the brocoli. I don't
worry about my kids' diet at all, but I also don't have a bunch of junk
around the house.

I also think you have to totally let go of all food things. Not label
food good or bad. Just let them eat and not worry about it.

joylyn, off to make brownies--I don't have cookies in the house, but I
do have brownie mix!

kayb85 wrote:

> In theory it seems to make sense, but now that I'm doing it I have my
> doubts. My three year old has been eating nothing but junk food all
> day. Today he ate...a few breadsticks in the morning. Nothing but
> soda to drink all day. A few bites of pizza for lunch, a pack of
> cupcakes. Supper, a few bites of noodles and one bite of carrot.
> He'll probably want cookies tonight. I don't know, it just doesn't
> seem healthy enough.
>
> Sheila
>
> > I had read an article in Mothering Magazine long ago that said if
> you let
> > kids choose their own foods you avoid all the trauma and eating
> disorders. I
> > think they are absolutely correct.
> >
> > Sandra
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Hartley

----------
From: Joylyn <joylyn@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Hawaii Theme Back to School Party
Date: Sun, Aug 11, 2002, 7:18 PM


But see, where is he getting the soda? My kids get soda, if we go out
to eat or something, but at home, the choices are more limited--often to
water. Gatorade if it's really hot, as it's been. I just don't buy
cupcakes, cookies and such. I don't care if they eat them but we don't
have the financial resources to waste on low nutrition, high calorie
junk food. Of course, each kid usually gets a treat when we go shopping
and Lexie choose tastycakes, and Janene picked out chips....I don't
worry about my kids' diet at all, but I also don't have a bunch of junk
around the house.

I also think you have to totally let go of all food things. Not label
food good or bad. Just let them eat and not worry about it.

----------

In continuing with my over-used educational analogy <g> I'd have to say that
this is something like being willing to spend money on textbooks but not on
the latest Babysitters Club, because the latter is "junk".

I understand financial concerns, but there are a number of lower-cost
alternatives to not having so-called "junk" food in the house (just as there
are low-cost alternatives to more plebian forms of literature).

I think "we can't afford it" when they really want it makes them crave it
and scarf it just as readily as having it in the house and trying to limit
it -- this looks to be the case since when offered a "treat" yours head for
tastycakes and chips.

Money is a pain in the ass <g>, but if you can afford salmon and shrimp
maybe you can afford homemade chocolate chip cookies and some nice salty
generic chips off the bargain rack? (We stock up on the ingredients for lots
of baked sweets, one by one as they're on sale).

Pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85

Dh insists that he "needs" soda. Therefore, when it goes on sale for
68 cents, we buy 25 2 liter bottles at a time. And again with the
tastycakes, dh is not a morning person but has a job that requires
him to leave the house at 5:30 am. He doesn't want to get up earlier
in order to eat a healthy breakfast, so he just gets up 15 minutes
before he walks out the door and grabs a tastycake to eat in the car
on the way. Those are dh's two big food insistinces. We must have
coke and cupcakes at all times.

Pam, I like your educational analogy. I have a question and I feel
like a school-at-homer asking "what about math?" ;) But... what
about fiber and vitamins?
Sheila


--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., Pam Hartley <pamhartley@m...> wrote:
> ----------
> From: Joylyn <joylyn@e...>
> To: AlwaysLearning@y...
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Hawaii Theme Back to School Party
> Date: Sun, Aug 11, 2002, 7:18 PM
>
>
> But see, where is he getting the soda? My kids get soda, if we go
out
> to eat or something, but at home, the choices are more limited--
often to
> water. Gatorade if it's really hot, as it's been. I just don't buy
> cupcakes, cookies and such. I don't care if they eat them but we
don't
> have the financial resources to waste on low nutrition, high calorie
> junk food. Of course, each kid usually gets a treat when we go
shopping
> and Lexie choose tastycakes, and Janene picked out chips....I don't
> worry about my kids' diet at all, but I also don't have a bunch of
junk
> around the house.
>
> I also think you have to totally let go of all food things. Not
label
> food good or bad. Just let them eat and not worry about it.
>
> ----------
>
> In continuing with my over-used educational analogy <g> I'd have to
say that
> this is something like being willing to spend money on textbooks
but not on
> the latest Babysitters Club, because the latter is "junk".
>
> I understand financial concerns, but there are a number of lower-
cost
> alternatives to not having so-called "junk" food in the house (just
as there
> are low-cost alternatives to more plebian forms of literature).
>
> I think "we can't afford it" when they really want it makes them
crave it
> and scarf it just as readily as having it in the house and trying
to limit
> it -- this looks to be the case since when offered a "treat" yours
head for
> tastycakes and chips.
>
> Money is a pain in the ass <g>, but if you can afford salmon and
shrimp
> maybe you can afford homemade chocolate chip cookies and some nice
salty
> generic chips off the bargain rack? (We stock up on the ingredients
for lots
> of baked sweets, one by one as they're on sale).
>
> Pam
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joylyn

Pam Hartley wrote:

> ----------


>
> In continuing with my over-used educational analogy <g> I'd have to
> say that
> this is something like being willing to spend money on textbooks but
> not on
> the latest Babysitters Club, because the latter is "junk".

I don't think babysitters club is junk.

>
> I understand financial concerns, but there are a number of lower-cost
> alternatives to not having so-called "junk" food in the house (just as
> there
> are low-cost alternatives to more plebian forms of literature).

I agree.

>
> I think "we can't afford it" when they really want it makes them crave it
> and scarf it just as readily as having it in the house and trying to limit
> it -- this looks to be the case since when offered a "treat" yours
> head for
> tastycakes and chips.

Actually I have never ever said we can't afford it. But each family
member gets to choose one thing. Lexie had narrowed it down from
brocoli, tastycakes, and something else. I can't remember. Janene had
originally picked out a package of 8 small packages of chips, but later
I saw one that had 44 packages of chips, same brand, more variety in
chips, for just $2 more, so we got the better buy. We don't buy soda,
or cookies at the store, but we do make cookies, brownies (remember, I'm
going to go make some now, as soon as Mark finishes the dishes), etc.
It's not really a treat, it's just that when we go to the store to buy
basic stuff, the kids get to pick something I dont' have a coupon for
and isn't necessarily on sale and that we don't necessarily need, etc.
They also picked out a few other things-ticktacks, (they were free as I
had a coupon for 55cents off, and the store doubles it and the price was
55 cents each), some gogurt yogurt thing, an off brand because the name
brand was nearly twice as expensive as the off brand so I said they
could get two of the off brand or one of the name brand and they aren't
stupid, let's see, what else did they pick. Oh yes, the shrimp. They
begged for that. The salmon was on sale, for $3 a pound and the shrimp
was also on sale, for even less, so it was pretty cheap--the cherries
though, they were expensive, why are canned cherries so expensive! It
was a good meal but we don't eat like that every day. We also don't
deny kids food for expense. For my birthday a few weeks ago we went to
red lobster and Janene, who is four, ordered lobster and veggies. And
chocolate cake. We had it all. Lexie (7) ordered the shrimp plate off
the adult menu. They don't order off the kid's menu. What I meant by
spending my money wisely is that I generally don't buy soda and other
things. If my kids want to choose soda that's fine with me. I do limit
caffeine but I do see that more as a drug and they can always have the
noncaffiene choices.

I'll never forget one day at the store. we were going to leave the next
day for a few days and I didn't want to buy things that would go bad
while we were gone. They had cpt crunch berries on sale, my favorite,
so we bought three boxes, one for each. Then we got to the produce
dept. I was going to get apples for the car, and maybe grapes, but the
girls kept begging for things. Please mom, get us carrots. Mom get us
tomatos, please mom get us plums. Please mom get us brocoli. Finally I
hear myself saying loudly "you already got your treat, capt crunch
berries, I am NOT buying you brocoli." Got a few looks for that one.

One thing I do do that I probably shouldn't is I ask that things like
the chips and tasty cakes be saved for when we go places, like the park,
etc. Just as I ask that bottled water be saved for going to the park,
trips in the car, etc. But if they eat all the chips and tasty cakes
and stuff and there are none left for going to the park or the beach
then that's life. I dont' get bent out of shape over it.

>
>
> Money is a pain in the ass <g>, but if you can afford salmon and shrimp
> maybe you can afford homemade chocolate chip cookies and some nice salty
> generic chips off the bargain rack? (We stock up on the ingredients
> for lots
> of baked sweets, one by one as they're on sale).

Ype so do we. Looks like Mark's done with the dishes, so off to make
brownies1

Joylyn

>
>
> Pam
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

meghanfire

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., Peggy <peggy@l...> wrote:


> Really, really good points Ren. This whole situation reminds
me of how
> homeschooling is portrayed in the _Monster in the Attic_ book
series. We got
> them from the library because we heard there were had a
homeschooled main
> character. My oldest read them pretty fast, one after another
and I read them
> aloud to my seven year old. Book after book described painful
and coercive
> learning experiences just as you have described. It was
excruciating to read
> them aloud! My youngest liked them because she really liked
the idea of
> stuffed animals coming alive (the best part of the books) but
the homeschool
> stuff was just awful.

> Peggy


Have you read the book 'Skellig'? There's a great homeschooled
character in it. The book doesn't go into educational style too
much, but I got the impression that she's an unschooler. It's a
fantastic story as well.

Meghan

Pam Hartley

----------
From: "kayb85" <sheran@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Hawaii Theme Back to School Party
Date: Sun, Aug 11, 2002, 7:48 PM


Pam, I like your educational analogy. I have a question and I feel
like a school-at-homer asking "what about math?" ;) But... what
about fiber and vitamins?

----------

Well, the fiber has had me stumped for quite awhile, I'll tell you (my
oldest daughter does regularly get a strong craving for huge green salads,
so that takes care of her, I think, but my youngest seems to have no
problems with the inner works in her fruit-and-veggie free diet -- and I do
very complacently expect that to change as she ages).

Vitamins are easy, here: I ask them to eat a multi-vitamin every day. I
explain that this is a foible of mine as mommies sometimes lunge awake at
night worrying that their children might not grow up strong without a daily
vitamin, and I beg the courts, (er, I mean the children's) indulgence, and
they humor me (and I think they do so directly because I'm not constantly
yammering at them to eat or not eat this or that). They did flatly refuse to
eat the icky Costco brand chewables I dragged home one week <g> but we've
compromised nicely as long as I bring home Pokemon or Flintstones.

I know this isn't "as good as" getting vitamins from real food, but it's
painless. We do talk sometimes about what food is good for what nutritional
reasons. If they refused the vitamin, I'd drop the issue like a hot rock and
probably grind it up into their brownies or sprinkle it on their Bagel
Bites. <eg>

Wally and I made this eating decision - we won't sacrifice for our children
today's calm happiness in their eating choices against tomorrow's
possibilities and statistically-varying maybes. I give them choices and
trust them, and it seems to work for us. They definitely eat more "junk"
than a nutritionally-focused family would approve of, but I also see them
CHOOSING to eat more "good food" than the children in many of those
families, when said children ARE suddenly presented with "choices" -- as
someone (Deb?) said, mine have never made themselves sick gorging on
*anything* because they've never had cause to think of chocolate as less
accessible than bread.

Pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Hartley

I wrote:

but my youngest seems to have no
problems with the inner works in her fruit-and-veggie free diet -- and I do
very complacently expect that to change as she ages





And I should clean that sentence up as it appears I expect her to start
having problems later. <g> Actually, what I expect is that her tastes will
expand and she'll start to want to eat some fruits and vegetables. :)

Pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

meghanfire

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., Pam Hartley <pamhartley@m...>
wrote:

> In my freezer at this moment are a box of Push Up ice cream
thingies and a
> box of Ice Cream Sandwiches -- both half full. Some weeks,
they'd already be
> gone, but these have been half-full for at least 10 days. I'll have
to throw
> them out soon.


We have the same thing going on here. We've got a full carton of
ice cream, chocolate raisins and a 1/4 pack of Oreos (that I will
have to throw away because they're probably stale by now!).
Today we had instant pudding for the first time and Tamzin had a
few bites and didn't want anymore because it was too sweet
<g>. I truly believe that if you don't restrict food choices they will
eat a balanced and overall a healthy diet.
I also believe that you don't necessarily have to get all your
nutrients in one day. I think that if your kid eats nothing but french
bread with butter on it for a day and then eats loads of fruit the
next day (as Tamzin did a few days ago at my mom's house
<g>), then it all evens out in the body in the long run. I don't know
if I'm making any sense about this to anyone, I'm having a hard
time explaining it somehow.
I know, from two different friend's experiences, that you have to
allow time to de-food (just like de-schooling) if kids have been
used to having food controlled.

Meghan

Peggy

> Have you read the book 'Skellig'? There's a great homeschooled
> character in it. The book doesn't go into educational style too
> much, but I got the impression that she's an unschooler. It's a
> fantastic story as well.
>
> Meghan


I love _Skellig_, what a wonderful book! I have read so many books that I
probably wouldn't have if I hadn't had children. I love discovering new ones
and rediscovering old favorites I'd forgotten.

Oh and I just finished _21 Dog Years: Doing Time at Amazon.com_ it is
hysterical!!! I highly recommend it to anyone who ever had a high tech cubicle
rat maze job.

Peggy

"Love is not something wonderful that you feel; it is something difficult that
you do." -- Elizabeth Goudge