re: unschooling vs child-led learning
[email protected]
>>I don't personally call unschooling "child-led learning," although Iprobably have a time or two years ago. Some people use that as their quicky
description, I'm pretty sure (or did years ago). That's probably why some
people say if a child chooses it, it's unschooling--even if what the child
chooses is a curriculum or boarding school.I think of unschooling as learning
from a life without schoolishness. But I've kinda made a full-time project
of it. Other families want to make a school-replacement temporary thing of
it, and so for them it's going to less life-transforming. <<
Yes - I wanted to hear about this.
I DO think that when unschooled kids choose school that it is very very
different than compulsory schooling. I don't know what to call it, I guess,
but the unschooled teens who are choosing to take classes at the community
colleges still REALLY feel like unschoolers - like autodidacts - like THEY
are fully and completely in charge of their own learning. They feel like THEY
are using the resources of the college - the teachers, the materials, the
facilities, the other students - in the same way they used the resources of
the library or museums or other adults or fairs or music stores or whatever -
when they were younger. Their lives become somewhat more "purposeful"
sometimes - they have goals that are more definable. (But interestingly,
their goals aren't stated in academic terms - they don't say, "My goal is to
get a degree in art or accounting or whatever." They say, "My goal is to run
my own art gallery, specializing in large ceramic pieces," or "My goal is to
work as an accountant for a nonprofit organization that helps battered women
and children." As opposed to the vast majority of my college students who
don't seem to have any goal beyond thinking that getting a degree will
increase their income.)
Maybe having been so separated from schoolishness, they can go into that
environment and still unschool in the sense that they still live within that
big unschooling paradigm, even though they are choosing to jump through some
hoops (pay the price) to get access to some stuff they want.
I'm not quibbing over what they are CALLED, by the way. It doesn't matter at
all. But I'm just commenting on the fact that they go into this college
experience with a very different attitude than other new college students and
that attitude is the logical extension of their years of living as
unschoolers.
--pam
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/23/02 1:49:34 AM, PSoroosh@... writes:
<< I DO think that when unschooled kids choose school that it is very very
different than compulsory schooling. I don't know what to call it, I guess,
but the unschooled teens who are choosing to take classes at the community
colleges still REALLY feel like unschoolers - like autodidacts - like THEY
are fully and completely in charge of their own learning. >>
I think it's child-led learning. I think it's learning and pure learning,
but not "teaching" and not "education."
I think when a child goes to third grade by choice, he's in school and not
unschooled.
I think when someone takes a college level class in a specific topic because
of interest in that topic, or takes piano or karate and isn't compelled by
the parent to do it, and to practice an hour a day, and all the traditional
trappings of such things, that that is the use of a resource by an interested
learner.
But I don't think any public school situation allows for picking and
choosing, or for cooperating or not cooperating to the extent that once a
child is in she isn't just IN there. Her attitude will be differnent if she
has the right to leave, but their treatment of the children and their
characterization of learning and how it works will be a big part of the day.
-=-Maybe having been so separated from schoolishness, they can go into that
environment and still unschool in the sense that they still live within that
big unschooling paradigm, even though they are choosing to jump through some
hoops (pay the price) to get access to some stuff they want.-=-
Yes. And I think unless a child and parent have really gone into that place
of totally trusting that they can learn and have seen and felt that work, and
have gotten over the jittery fear that they won't read or do math, that THEN
they can use the resources from that mindset.
It's probably impossible to explain to someone who hasn't fully relaxed into
natural learning, because they see a kid taking classes and they think they
can duplicate the experience by telling their kids to take some classes.
I'm passing the place where I have words now. And it's going to seem too
esoteric to some for me to say it depends what your experience and awareness
is whether you're learning or being taught.
Sorry to those to whom it seems nonsensical. And if anyone does understand
and can describe it, that would be wonderful.
Sandra
<< I DO think that when unschooled kids choose school that it is very very
different than compulsory schooling. I don't know what to call it, I guess,
but the unschooled teens who are choosing to take classes at the community
colleges still REALLY feel like unschoolers - like autodidacts - like THEY
are fully and completely in charge of their own learning. >>
I think it's child-led learning. I think it's learning and pure learning,
but not "teaching" and not "education."
I think when a child goes to third grade by choice, he's in school and not
unschooled.
I think when someone takes a college level class in a specific topic because
of interest in that topic, or takes piano or karate and isn't compelled by
the parent to do it, and to practice an hour a day, and all the traditional
trappings of such things, that that is the use of a resource by an interested
learner.
But I don't think any public school situation allows for picking and
choosing, or for cooperating or not cooperating to the extent that once a
child is in she isn't just IN there. Her attitude will be differnent if she
has the right to leave, but their treatment of the children and their
characterization of learning and how it works will be a big part of the day.
-=-Maybe having been so separated from schoolishness, they can go into that
environment and still unschool in the sense that they still live within that
big unschooling paradigm, even though they are choosing to jump through some
hoops (pay the price) to get access to some stuff they want.-=-
Yes. And I think unless a child and parent have really gone into that place
of totally trusting that they can learn and have seen and felt that work, and
have gotten over the jittery fear that they won't read or do math, that THEN
they can use the resources from that mindset.
It's probably impossible to explain to someone who hasn't fully relaxed into
natural learning, because they see a kid taking classes and they think they
can duplicate the experience by telling their kids to take some classes.
I'm passing the place where I have words now. And it's going to seem too
esoteric to some for me to say it depends what your experience and awareness
is whether you're learning or being taught.
Sorry to those to whom it seems nonsensical. And if anyone does understand
and can describe it, that would be wonderful.
Sandra
[email protected]
**I DO think that when unschooled kids choose school that it is very very
different than compulsory schooling. I don't know what to call it, I guess,
but the unschooled teens who are choosing to take classes at the community
colleges still REALLY feel like unschoolers - like autodidacts - like THEY
are fully and completely in charge of their own learning.**
That isn't surprising. That's the way things are SUPPOSED to be in college,
after all.
I'm more interested in is the experience of kids who go to high school or
otherwise into situations where most everybody else is NOT there of their own
free will. How does the compulsory experience of the rest of the population
affect them?
The experience of a teen choosing to attend school on a college campus and
one choosing a high school campus are going to be light years apart.
Deborah in IL
different than compulsory schooling. I don't know what to call it, I guess,
but the unschooled teens who are choosing to take classes at the community
colleges still REALLY feel like unschoolers - like autodidacts - like THEY
are fully and completely in charge of their own learning.**
That isn't surprising. That's the way things are SUPPOSED to be in college,
after all.
I'm more interested in is the experience of kids who go to high school or
otherwise into situations where most everybody else is NOT there of their own
free will. How does the compulsory experience of the rest of the population
affect them?
The experience of a teen choosing to attend school on a college campus and
one choosing a high school campus are going to be light years apart.
Deborah in IL
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/23/02 1:24:55 PM, dacunefare@... writes:
<< The experience of a teen choosing to attend school on a college campus and
one choosing a high school campus are going to be light years apart.
out of a college class, or just don't go for a time or two, you're not
considered a runaway. When kids are in public or private school, they are in
some ways the property of those teachers. Worse almost than with their
parents. It's a scary kind of law/tradition/precedent. Hardly ever comes
into play anymore, and when I've heard it more than not lately is parents
furious that the school didn't control their kids better. "They were with
you, why didn't you make sure...." whatever it is.
For anyone with a morbid curiosity about in loco parentis, here are some
defining bits:
http://members.tripod.com/~pdilber/makale.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3564/case1.html
Sandra
<< The experience of a teen choosing to attend school on a college campus and
one choosing a high school campus are going to be light years apart.
>>Yes. For one, the principle of "in loco parentis." If you stand up and walk
out of a college class, or just don't go for a time or two, you're not
considered a runaway. When kids are in public or private school, they are in
some ways the property of those teachers. Worse almost than with their
parents. It's a scary kind of law/tradition/precedent. Hardly ever comes
into play anymore, and when I've heard it more than not lately is parents
furious that the school didn't control their kids better. "They were with
you, why didn't you make sure...." whatever it is.
For anyone with a morbid curiosity about in loco parentis, here are some
defining bits:
http://members.tripod.com/~pdilber/makale.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3564/case1.html
Sandra
[email protected]
**I DO think that when unschooled kids choose school that it is very very
different than compulsory schooling. I don't know what to call it, I guess,
but the unschooled teens who are choosing to take classes at the community
colleges still REALLY feel like unschoolers - like autodidacts - like THEY
are fully and completely in charge of their own learning.**
True. Supposed to be. But it isn't. The VAST majority of college students are
sort of sleepwalking <G> when it comes to learning. What I mean is that they
just do not have any concept of anything beyond school and their social life.
To them the ENTIRE point of a class is to take the tests, get the passing
grades, and graduate. There are very very few who would not JUMP at the
chance to skip a class if they could just get credit.
--pam
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
different than compulsory schooling. I don't know what to call it, I guess,
but the unschooled teens who are choosing to take classes at the community
colleges still REALLY feel like unschoolers - like autodidacts - like THEY
are fully and completely in charge of their own learning.**
>>That isn't surprising. That's the way things are SUPPOSED to be in college,after all. <<
True. Supposed to be. But it isn't. The VAST majority of college students are
sort of sleepwalking <G> when it comes to learning. What I mean is that they
just do not have any concept of anything beyond school and their social life.
To them the ENTIRE point of a class is to take the tests, get the passing
grades, and graduate. There are very very few who would not JUMP at the
chance to skip a class if they could just get credit.
--pam
National Home Education Network
http://www.NHEN.org
Changing the Way the World Sees Homeschooling!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dan Vilter
> The VAST majority of college students areFor years I would start the semester off telling my classes that the
> sort of sleepwalking <G> when it comes to learning. What I mean is that they
> just do not have any concept of anything beyond school and their social life.
> To them the ENTIRE point of a class is to take the tests, get the passing
> grades, and graduate. There are very very few who would not JUMP at the
> chance to skip a class if they could just get credit.
clearest way to let me know that they didn't care about the subject or my
ability to teach and that they were wasting our time, was to ask me "Is this
on the test?" If I didn't tell them up front haw rude I found it, It would
be asked multiple times a day. As a young teacher I found it one of the most
hurtful aspects of the profession.
Now that I am older and unschooling has taken hold of me, I do something I'm
sure many of my students find almost as hurtful. I structure the class so
there are no tests. They *can't* ask me if it is on the test. I teach
technical Theatre classes and am fortunate that the subject allows me to
have other ways of assessment. Unfortunately I do have to grade the students
to satisfy administrators and record keepers.
At the start of the term, this is very unsettling to about 90% of the
students. I ask (multiple times) what they want to learn from the class. I
see lots of confused faces. I also see people staring blankly hoping I will
just get to the (nonexistent) list of requirements they need to pass the
class. I can't help but think that for most of these people it is the first
time they have been asked to guide their own learning.
By the third of fourth week most of class gets it. Or at least on some level
they understand that this is not going to be like there other classes. They
stop asking for the specific requirements of the class. They can ask
questions about the subject without worrying about reciting our discussion
later for the exam. When I ask at the end of class each day if they are
getting what they wanted out of the class they slowly realize that they can
say "no," and ask if we can go over or find out about such and such. And we
do. An I don't hold hard to any subject line. If after discussing lighting
control boards, the class wants to go over how they compare to sound
consoles, we explore sound.
Many, understandably have to ask how they are doing grade wise in the class,
so (after letting them know that if it was up to me there would be no
grades) I ask leading questions about their participation in the class and
get them to self evaluate with my last question being "so what what kind of
grade do you think that is?" they eventually tell me. That answer is always
there grade. This self evaluation seems to be both a horrifying and
liberating process.
Unfortunately we spend about half the term deschooling before the class can
really get moving. And there are always some who can never make the jump.
-Dan Vilter
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/26/02 10:08:12 AM, dvilter@... writes:
<< For years I would start the semester off telling my classes that the
clearest way to let me know that they didn't care about the subject or my
ability to teach and that they were wasting our time, was to ask me "Is this
on the test?" >>
I got to saying calmly "I don't know," or "Maybe."
And sometimes I would say "This will not be on the test, but..." and then do
what was clearly the most (maybe ONLY) interesting thing of the week. <g>
Sandra
<< For years I would start the semester off telling my classes that the
clearest way to let me know that they didn't care about the subject or my
ability to teach and that they were wasting our time, was to ask me "Is this
on the test?" >>
I got to saying calmly "I don't know," or "Maybe."
And sometimes I would say "This will not be on the test, but..." and then do
what was clearly the most (maybe ONLY) interesting thing of the week. <g>
Sandra