Sandra Dodd

This is an intro to a reader’s request, and a larger topic. Please bear with my current example:

Today I quoted something in Just Add Light, from a page I had never yet quoted there. Just before I launched it, last night, on a timer, I noticed “come” was in there twice, and I considered changing one. But then I would need to change it on the page, too, and that takes a bit of work. Also, I figured it was from a discussion or some published writing, and I was tired.

This morning, I’m horrified to see “come” THREE TIMES in one paragraph, and if “horrified” is overstating it…. I try not to use the same word twice in a paragraph.

Here it is:
-=-Sometimes someone comes to one of the unschooling discussions, not knowing there are other ways, and offers the traditional "You're the boss, just say no" advice. I'm glad it has come to sound harsh and wrong. It shows me how far I've come.-=-

Here’s the longer quote and the link to the page is there: https://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2019/05/rationing-no.html

That was part of an introduction I had written when I had some quotes from others to save. I could change it. It’s not anywhere else. Or I could leave it, because (until now, maybe) hardly anyone knows that I feel ill if the same word pops up twice. :-)

SO!
I had a note from a reader, with a more complicated question, but it’s along the same lines, of what could, or should, be changed, of things that really were written in the past.

Here starts the more serious question. Think as clearly and as deeply as you can before responding. I hope we get a dozen responses, and all good ones.

____________________________________



I was just reading through the junk food page, preparing to link it to a conversation on my page. I notice there are a couple of comments from moms about their own weight and fat-phobic/upholding a thin ideal stuff. One celebrating that kids and mom have lost weight after deschooling food. One commenting that she "still struggles" with her own weight.

I'm wondering how old these writings are, and whether they might be out of date now? There is some really good content being generated now around deschooling food AND weight control. Not unschooling or even kid specific...but really an excellent complement to unschooling.

I'm not exactly sure what I'm asking for here... I guess I'm wondering about updating/elevating the radical unschooling writings on food/weight and the idea of healthy/unhealthy to better articulate a love of fat bodies/all bodies... Rather than what's there now which is, to some extent, deschooling around food as a method to achieve thinness.

___________end quote_______________

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-There is some really good content being generated now around deschooling food AND weight control. Not unschooling or even kid specific....but really an excellent complement to unschooling. -=-

“Deschooling food” sets off alarms for me, as food was never schooled.

-=-One commenting that she "still struggles" with her own weight. -=-

I hardly ever let “struggle” go by now without telling people to stop struggling. :-)

I know one of the very-active moms a dozen years ago had lost a lot of weight with Weight Watchers, and then, as happens often, it started coming back. What she shared in those days was that it helped more to enjoy what she ate, and to choose foods by what she wanted to eat. Not what was in the book or the magazine or the menu, but she had learned to “listen to her body”—to consider what seemed like the right thing (for whatever reason) to eat, that would be satisfying (in whatever way). Whether she gained weight or not, her life seemed better if each bite of food was savored and appreciated.

If people reading could bring links to helpful new ideas that are a good match for unschooling principles, that would be fine.

Sandra

wildwestsky@...

>> “Deschooling food” sets off alarms for me, as food was never schooled. <<

I would prefer "deschooling around food", maybe. But the phrase rings true for me. Maybe the time and place of schools you attended placed less emphasis on it? And this might only apply to US readers...

I'm thinking about the hot lunch trays from my elementary school. They had different sized rectangles, and lunch was always: the main course (most often with meat) in the largest slot, a vegetable (usually from a can) in a smaller slot, a dessert (canned fruit, or cobbler, or jello), maybe a roll, and a cardboard container of milk. I remember many adults at school exerting control over whether any food choices in the lunch line were declined, or what type of milk we chose, or how much of our food we finished or threw away. 

We had posters of the 4 Food Groups: Meat, Grains, Dairy, and Fruits and Vegetables. We were taught to identify each one, about how much of each to consume. 

The Weight Watchers program was a strict curriculum (less so now, but still a program to be calculated and followed in order to achieve "success"). Diets -- the ones we ascribe to in order to lose weight -- restrict food in some way, either by counting calories or nutrients, or by restricting entire categories of food. It's very linear and very much parallels learning in school. "I can stay at this weight if I eat this number of calories per day" seems akin, to me, of calling what a first grader reading Dick and Jane "reading" when he can't yet read the note that says, "I went to the grocery store and will return in an hour."

Isn't that the school version of learning about food and how to interact with it? To me, these are learning experiences I needed to deschool from as a parent, before I could fully move into an unschooling life where my child had the ability to explore and play with food choices. 

************

My most recent story about unschooling and food is this: 
When my son was born, I was very controlling about what foods people were allowed to feed him. I myself had been a vegetarian for a decade. I made his lunches to take to daycare from scratch every day. When they bought pizza on Fridays, I sent homemade pizza with whole wheat crust topped with fruits and veggies. When he started a co-op preschool, I decided I would rather have him feel free to connect with friends through shared snacks than continue to control, so I left the question blank on forms that asked which snacks he wasn't allowed to have. I still made beet chips when it was our turn to bring snack, rather than the Pirate Booty or tortilla chips other families brought, though. We started homeschooling in kindergarten, and by age 6 I had relinquished any conscious ideas about controlling his food choices. For almost 5 years now, he's pretty much eaten whatever he wants, whenever he wants. 

Two months ago, he watched a documentary and told me he wanted to be vegan. I was completely neutral in my reaction, helping him shop for and make new foods and learn to replace butter, milk, and eggs in recipes he already used. I managed not to praise his decision and not to criticize anything he ate. I even joined him in the effort. I continued to gently offer non-vegan foods on occasion so that he wouldn't feel locked into his choice, but he really stuck to it, even asking a friend's mom to order his pizza without cheese at their weekly play date. He read the labels on everything, even refusing mayonnaise and ranch dressing. 

It would be easy for me to speak about his veganism as an unschooling success story. "See? He can choose whatever he wants, and he chooses the healthy lifestyle!" "After getting his fill of sugary foods and having free access to junk, he chooses to give it all up and eat healthy!" 

In reality, what's happened is: He's still a 10yr old kid living in a world FULL of food choices, learning about his body and what works for him in the life he's creating. He went camping and ate packaged vegan foods like hot dogs and mac-n-cheese and popsicles. Those weren't "health foods"! He went on vacation where it was hard to eat according to his regimen, so he made accommodations. "Mom, what's today? Wednesday? Ok, Wednesdays are non-vegan day." Then, "Mom, I think I'm going to still be a vegan, but I'll eat milk. Still no meat or eggs though." Then, "Mom, I'm not a vegan anymore, I'm a vegetarian!" And a day or two later, "(laughing) Mom, actually, I'm nothing" and orders sushi. 

I'm so glad that I wasn't attached to a "healthy" outcome for him. I'm glad I can look at his growing body, mind, and spirit -- exploring all kinds of food, eating joyfully, learning to cook and grow his own food, cooking pancakes for his cousins and carefully offering, would they like raspberries, or chocolate chips, or plain? and now even exploring labels and identity -- and see this accumulation of skills and knowledge as his success, without putting value on extraneous factors like his weight percentile or what specific foods he's choosing in the moment. I'm so glad *he* can experience food as just another thing in the universe to play with, and lovingly choose to nourish it without harm to his identity every time what he wants for himself doesn't match what the way he's defined himself. 

***********

My favorite resource for food deschooling right now is Christy Harrison's podcast. Here is an overview episode, which defines a few terms and points to subsequent episodes. It's not about unschooling or even about kids, but it touches on topics that unschoolers have long written about such as that science changes and making a better choice. https://christyharrison.com/foodpsych/2/food-psych-315-getting-started

~Tara Joe Farrell

Sandra Dodd

This is Sandra. My e-mail program is no longer identifying the source of e-mails, so if people could identify themselves, that would be helpful. (At the website, I think authors show, still.)

You’re right, Tara Joe Farrell.

-=-I'm thinking about the hot lunch trays from my elementary school. They had different sized rectangles, and lunch was always: the main course (most often with meat) in the largest slot, a vegetable (usually from a can) in a smaller slot, a dessert (canned fruit, or cobbler, or jello), maybe a roll, and a cardboard container of milk. I remember many adults at school exerting control over whether any food choices in the lunch line were declined, or what type of milk we chose, or how much of our food we finished or threw away.
-=-We had posters of the 4 Food Groups:-=-

I have not been thinking about food, feeding children, eating food, as something so schoolish, but you’re right that in many ways it is.

When my kids were little, the four food groups was replaced by a food pyramid with lots of grain and bread on the base. Before many years, that was rejected vigorously.
At that point, I knew it was all faddish, past the discovery of nutrients and knowledge of the need for citrus fruits. :-)

-=-Then, "Mom, I'm not a vegan anymore, I'm a vegetarian!" And a day or two later, "(laughing) Mom, actually, I'm nothing" and orders sushi. -=-

Omnivore.
Not “nothing.” :-)

Your story is true, and good, and compelling.
It doesn’t make me want to revamp my site, or to edit out things that were written for sharing when moms were having epiphanies, but it DOES make me want to remember to temper and balance any too-exuberant claims of healthy or “right” choices.

Sometimes deschooling works best when there are surprising (maybe even shocking) surprises, or stark refutations of what the mom has “guaranteed will happen,” or is positive can ONLY happen—that have candy out all the time will make kids throw up, have cavities, get fat. The stories of kids in the presence of the same olf bowl of candy asking for vegetables and fruit are important stories to share.

Choices can’t happen without choices, and choices don’t happen well with a mom hovering around and predicting negative outcomes. Lots of people have reported that their experiences with food, and unschooling, changed everything. Seeing kids learning about food, and making choices about food, made other choices seem to make total sense.

Sandra

wildwestsky@...

>> Sometimes deschooling works best when there are surprising (maybe even shocking) surprises, or stark refutations of what the mom has “guaranteed will happen,” or is positive can ONLY happen.

Yes. I think those stories that have stark contrast are good, sparkly attractions to parents who are still making gradual changes. They will make good crutches to learn to trust unschooling, before unschooling is fully working in their home. When someone still needs a mile marker up ahead to remind them that what they're doing has worked in the past. 

In my view, that's the beginning of deschooling. Deschooling continues when we notice ourselves placing a value on one result over another. Then we need to neutralize the stigma so that we can open up all the options. I don't think the current writings on unschooling + food have accomplished that yet. 

>> Lots of people have reported that their experiences with food, and unschooling, changed everything.<<

Unschooling changes everything, right? PEACE changes everything. Letting go of controlling food can be the vehicle to achieving the peace that changes everything. 

If a parent is afraid of their child getting fat, it's an obstacle to good unschooling. If a parent is afraid of their own fatness, it becomes a barrier in the parent-child relationship and causes shame. 

What I've seen is that food is like math. It's the thing people are least willing to let go of. They can deschool many areas of family life, of learning, and still let food -- what kinds, how much -- be a scary villain. Many at-home parents learn enough about unschooling to let go of controlling their children's food, but hang onto certain diets for themselves. The away-parents freak out if their children gain weight in early unschooling. These tensions detract from the family's peace. 

I think the reason for this is that thinness and math skills (STEM) are both idealized in our (American) culture. They're seen as ways parents have a responsibility to give kids a competitive edge. 

Unschooling writing has done a good job of unpacking our baggage around math. We've shown that math is everywhere, that there are plenty of careers that don't require advanced math, and that the kids will be ok. 

We haven't yet done the same for fatness. We haven't yet written about how fat kids will be ok, or what happens when kids grow up to be fat adults, about how they are still less damaged than if they were controlled and thin. 

I think unschoolers ARE dealing with this issue in the world. We're helping kids love their bodies, we're helping kids love food of all kinds, we're looking at their own nature vs nurture and how we treat our own bodies with compassion, and we're helping kids find joyful movement that will last a lifetime. But I think it's important to also have written conversations at this level, to find the success stories that aren't about thinness or healthy food, so that future readers can see clearly that unschooling can be a success for kids (and adults) in bodies of all shapes and sizes, the same as we have done for math. 

~Tara Joe Farrell




Sandra Dodd

Quoting, first:

-=-Unschooling writing has done a good job of unpacking our baggage around math. We've shown that math is everywhere, that there are plenty of careers that don't require advanced math, and that the kids will be ok. 

-=-We haven't yet done the same for fatness. We haven't yet written about how fat kids will be ok, or what happens when kids grow up to be fat adults, about how they are still less damaged than if they were controlled and thin. -=-

Sandra, now:

"We" is a problem here.

There's no governing council.  Different people have written different things.  I've collected things for a long time,and they don't all exactly match. I keep adding to the collection.

I can't defend or criticize "we."

I can't link directly, but there might be things from this discussion I can add to this page, later.  There's a word missing up top, too, but I can't fix it right now.




On Thursday, May 9, 2019, 10:57:44 AM MDT, wildwestsky@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:


 

>> Sometimes deschooling works best when there are surprising (maybe even shocking) surprises, or stark refutations of what the mom has “guaranteed will happen,” or is positive can ONLY happen.

Yes. I think those stories that have stark contrast are good, sparkly attractions to parents who are still making gradual changes. They will make good crutches to learn to trust unschooling, before unschooling is fully working in their home. When someone still needs a mile marker up ahead to remind them that what they're doing has worked in the past. 

In my view, that's the beginning of deschooling. Deschooling continues when we notice ourselves placing a value on one result over another. Then we need to neutralize the stigma so that we can open up all the options. I don't think the current writings on unschooling + food have accomplished that yet. 

>> Lots of people have reported that their experiences with food, and unschooling, changed everything.<<

Unschooling changes everything, right? PEACE changes everything. Letting go of controlling food can be the vehicle to achieving the peace that changes everything. 

If a parent is afraid of their child getting fat, it's an obstacle to good unschooling. If a parent is afraid of their own fatness, it becomes a barrier in the parent-child relationship and causes shame. 

What I've seen is that food is like math. It's the thing people are least willing to let go of. They can deschool many areas of family life, of learning, and still let food -- what kinds, how much -- be a scary villain. Many at-home parents learn enough about unschooling to let go of controlling their children's food, but hang onto certain diets for themselves. The away-parents freak out if their children gain weight in early unschooling. These tensions detract from the family's peace. 

I think the reason for this is that thinness and math skills (STEM) are both idealized in our (American) culture. They're seen as ways parents have a responsibility to give kids a competitive edge. 

Unschooling writing has done a good job of unpacking our baggage around math. We've shown that math is everywhere, that there are plenty of careers that don't require advanced math, and that the kids will be ok. 

We haven't yet done the same for fatness. We haven't yet written about how fat kids will be ok, or what happens when kids grow up to be fat adults, about how they are still less damaged than if they were controlled and thin. 

I think unschoolers ARE dealing with this issue in the world. We're helping kids love their bodies, we're helping kids love food of all kinds, we're looking at their own nature vs nurture and how we treat our own bodies with compassion, and we're helping kids find joyful movement that will last a lifetime. But I think it's important to also have written conversations at this level, to find the success stories that aren't about thinness or healthy food, so that future readers can see clearly that unschooling can be a success for kids (and adults) in bodies of all shapes and sizes, the same as we have done for math. 

~Tara Joe Farrell




Sandra@...

Someone clicked "like" on a five-year-old comment.  But it fits here, and so does the discussion, in a way, for those able and willing to read an older topic on facebook.  but the comment was my writing:

 -=-Sometimes lists don't explain the full extent of a concept that can be explored.-=-

We can't. 
That's why "read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch" is so valuable. People can't read the map until they get to the destination. They need to get on the trail themselves and start to travel. They can change their minds and not go all the way, but they can't get anywhere just by reading and asking questions.

Unschoolers need to start seeing these things work in their own families. There's more to know, and more to think about, and people who will help with ideas and links, but nobody can "teach" another person how to unschool. They can help the other person start to figure it out, though.
_____________

P.S.  This is Sandra,  Not only is my website largely missing, but my e-mail program is messed up.  I'm sorry that just as there are exciting topics here...   

Sandra@...

AND of course, I forgot the link before.  Sorry :-)


There are lots of responses.  The original question was about a two-year-old choosing sweets, while the mom is "modelling" healthy eating—stuff the child declares "yucky."

Following many other responses, I wrote: 

 -=-Sometimes lists don't explain the full extent of a concept that can be explored.-=-

We can't. 
That's why "read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch" is so valuable. People can't read the map until they get to the destination. They need to get on the trail themselves and start to travel. They can change their minds and not go all the way, but they can't get anywhere just by reading and asking questions.

Unschoolers need to start seeing these things work in their own families. There's more to know, and more to think about, and people who will help with ideas and links, but nobody can "teach" another person how to unschool. They can help the other person start to figure it out, though.


nacho katy

=====
There is some really good content being generated now around deschooling food AND weight control. Not unschooling or even kid specific....but really an excellent complement to unschooling. 
=====

Where is / what is this content? Sounds contradictory to the other comments saying “deschooling is a method to achieve thinness” -isn’t “weight control” just another word to mean thin?

- - - - - 

When I’ve read the comments about unschooling food, I haven’t seen the “thin is best” stand out; it reads more like “this is what happened to us” vs “fat is bad” to me. Just other’s experience or observation rather than we achieved a desired outcome. And let me just say, thin is not the outcome around here! 

What I will say is that my children can eat just part of something, even something *really good* and then save the rest for later. They eat until they are done or feeling satisfied, and then go about their business. Food is just another part of daily life, but not a focus and we don’t really talk about it much. 

(That hasn’t always been the case; there were previously tears and coercion tactics and other very awful food situations.)

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(edited to remove the appended post)
______

Sandra@...

I found some more body-positive things, without looking.  Working on something else, came across the list at the bottom of this page:


Taking control away takes lots of the problems away, I think.

Sandra