Marriage - Falling out of love
k_charlie88@...
I´m looking vor advice regarding my marriage. First of all I´d like to inform you that I am not a native speaker, so please excuse me if some of my writing sounds a little bit strange.
I am really sad for months now because I have the feeling that I have fallen out of love with my husband. We have a son (3 years) and I think I somehow lost contact / connection to my husband since his birth.
It was and is not always easy for me to be the mother I´d
like to be (due to my own childhood characterized by emotional and
psychological violence but also due to our high-need/24-hour-baby and –toddler)
and I spent a lot of the last two years with reading about radical unschooling.
I learnt so many things about parenting, myself and relationships and I am
really grateful for this. But now I recognise more and more, that the feelings
toward my husband are not what I like them to be (I know that this somehow
sounds strange). I really miss the feeling of affection, closeness and (physical)
attraction. And it really hurts to feel like this. It is not that we have a lot
of fights or that there is another man /
woman. It is „just“ that I am afraid I lost my feelings for him during the last
three years. It makes me so sad to feel the deep love and affection when I look
at our son and to miss these feelings when I look at my own husband.
I know that there are a lot of moments, when I´m not nice to my husband because I am stressed or tired and I am still working on this. I know that I should change my behaviour toward him. But I can´t change my feelings.
My parents got divorced when I was 10 so I know what that means to all family members. I really want to have an intact family life for all of us. But it is so hard for me at the moment. I feel guilty for not loving my husband the way „it should be“ and I have no idea how to change that. So I really hope for some advice/ideas/thoughts how to strengthen my marriage.
Best regards,
Charlie
Sandra Dodd
-=-I spent a lot of the last two years with reading about radical unschooling. I learnt so many things about parenting, myself and relationships and I am really grateful for this.-=-
If you’re in Germany and can’t unschool anyway, maybe some of that reading is making you unhappier.
This might sound strange, but it could help (if unschooling is an impossibility) to turn away from it, look at what you DO need to do with and for your son in Germany, and spend more happy energy with your husband.
If you think things are hard now, they WILL be harder for everyone involved if you divorce.
I didn’t save the name with this, because of the sorrow attached, but this was posted and I saved it:
"If anyone ever tells you that divorce is easier than working on your marriage, please know that they're telling you a lie. Divorce with children involved will break your heart over and over and over again.”
I willl leave some links, but consider counseling or coaching. If you can afford to pay for help from unschoolers (if that seems a good angle to you), for this situation I would recommend Roya Dedeaux for you, and Graham Dusseldorp (in Leiden) for your husband (English or Dutch; I don’t know if Graham speaks German). Maybe even just a couple of sessions, to help you feel warmer and more focused.
http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy
Or a local marriage counselor. Don’t let it slide. You will all be much happier if you fix this sooner than later.
Here’s something with a German translation linked. That’s Graham in the third photo.
http://sandradodd.com/betterpartner
If something sounds odd in the German, check the original English writing.
I wrote it for the German magazine, and only put the original up after their publication was out.
Try not to nag.
http://sandradodd.com/nagging
Say three nice things every day. Be grateful and express gratitude.
I hope there will be other ideas here soon.
Sandra
If you’re in Germany and can’t unschool anyway, maybe some of that reading is making you unhappier.
This might sound strange, but it could help (if unschooling is an impossibility) to turn away from it, look at what you DO need to do with and for your son in Germany, and spend more happy energy with your husband.
If you think things are hard now, they WILL be harder for everyone involved if you divorce.
I didn’t save the name with this, because of the sorrow attached, but this was posted and I saved it:
"If anyone ever tells you that divorce is easier than working on your marriage, please know that they're telling you a lie. Divorce with children involved will break your heart over and over and over again.”
I willl leave some links, but consider counseling or coaching. If you can afford to pay for help from unschoolers (if that seems a good angle to you), for this situation I would recommend Roya Dedeaux for you, and Graham Dusseldorp (in Leiden) for your husband (English or Dutch; I don’t know if Graham speaks German). Maybe even just a couple of sessions, to help you feel warmer and more focused.
http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy
Or a local marriage counselor. Don’t let it slide. You will all be much happier if you fix this sooner than later.
Here’s something with a German translation linked. That’s Graham in the third photo.
http://sandradodd.com/betterpartner
If something sounds odd in the German, check the original English writing.
I wrote it for the German magazine, and only put the original up after their publication was out.
Try not to nag.
http://sandradodd.com/nagging
Say three nice things every day. Be grateful and express gratitude.
I hope there will be other ideas here soon.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
The quote about divorce is on this page. I forgot to leave the link; sorry:
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
D. Harper
> It was and is not always easy for me to be the mother I´d like to be (due to my own childhood characterized by emotional and psychological violence but also due to our high-need/24-hour-baby and –toddler) and I spent a lot of the last two years with reading about radical unschooling. I learnt so many things about parenting, myself and relationships and I am really grateful for this. But now I recognise more and more, that the feelings toward my husband are not what I like them to be (I know that this somehow sounds strange). I really miss the feeling of affection, closeness and (physical) attraction. And it really hurts to feel like this.It will help to let go of the expectations that your feelings “should” be more. Accept things as they are, and care for yourself and your family, including your husband.
> I know that there are a lot of moments, when I´m not nice to my husband because I am stressed or tired and I am still working on this. I know that I should change my behaviour toward him. But I can´t change my feelings.Yes, treat him nicely. Don’t expect so much of him. He will likely grow in your kindness.
If you reject him because he’s not who you want him to be, things will get worse. If you bring kindness and care to your interactions, things will get better. You will get stronger, you will be a better parent, you will find more resources of compassion that will nourish you and those around you.
His days may not bring him to learn more about people and relationships as yours have done. Caring for a young child, can lead the caregiver to grow their understandings about people and relationships, and kindness and care. You grew up with harshness and are now opening up to the wonders of love and care. You can reach out with kindness to him too. He’s probably not as readily adorable as a young child, but he was that young child not so long ago. With your unconditional care he will grow more adorable!
> I feel guilty for not loving my husband the way „it should be“ and I have no idea how to change that.Let go of what “it should be”. Love him as a person - a fellow human being with whom you share a lot. Good things will come from that.
Debbie :)
Rinelle
>> I am really sad for months now because I have the feeling that I have fallen out of love with my husband. We have a son (3 years) and I think I somehow lost contact / connection to my husband since his birth.
Honestly, I think that’s pretty normal when you have a child around that age! Your time is so focused on the needs of the young child, that other things (including love) can take a backseat in your life. Don’t fixate on it. There’s every possibility it will pass as your child grows. I’ve had times like this, and I know other mums who have too.
Look for the joy in your life where you can find it, and in your husband where you can too.
Tamara
Jennifer Moore
hi everyone - my first post here, though I've been reading the list for
a while & finding it valuable - thanks everyone!
==== I am really sad for months now because I have the feeling that I
have fallen out of love with my husband. We have a son (3 years) and I
think I somehow lost contact / connection to my husband since his birth.
====
This made me think of some research I read recently, about intentionally
coming to feel closer to someone by taking turns to ask questions and
share the answers. There's a specific set of questions which start off
with more lighthearted things and gradually move to more intimacy. It
draws on research about how turn-taking and vulnerability naturally lead
to feelings of closeness for human beings.
The research shows that it has an effect even with strangers, so I
wouldn't be surprised if it worked even better with someone you're
already committed to and _want_ to feel in love with.
The background story:
http://news.berkeley.edu/2015/02/12/love-in-the-lab/
More background and the actual 36 questions:
http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/the-36-questions-that-lead-to-love/8387736
This is from someone who tried it and fell in love:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/11/fashion/modern-love-to-fall-in-love-with-anyone-do-this.html
I was thinking you could maybe say your husband "I'd like us to feel
closer - shall we try this?" And find a time to be together and go
through the questions.
Jennifer
--
www.uncharted-worlds.org/blog/
www.single-bass.co.uk/what-is-single-bass
www.single-bass.co.uk/songs
a while & finding it valuable - thanks everyone!
==== I am really sad for months now because I have the feeling that I
have fallen out of love with my husband. We have a son (3 years) and I
think I somehow lost contact / connection to my husband since his birth.
====
This made me think of some research I read recently, about intentionally
coming to feel closer to someone by taking turns to ask questions and
share the answers. There's a specific set of questions which start off
with more lighthearted things and gradually move to more intimacy. It
draws on research about how turn-taking and vulnerability naturally lead
to feelings of closeness for human beings.
The research shows that it has an effect even with strangers, so I
wouldn't be surprised if it worked even better with someone you're
already committed to and _want_ to feel in love with.
The background story:
http://news.berkeley.edu/2015/02/12/love-in-the-lab/
More background and the actual 36 questions:
http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/the-36-questions-that-lead-to-love/8387736
This is from someone who tried it and fell in love:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/11/fashion/modern-love-to-fall-in-love-with-anyone-do-this.html
I was thinking you could maybe say your husband "I'd like us to feel
closer - shall we try this?" And find a time to be together and go
through the questions.
Jennifer
--
www.uncharted-worlds.org/blog/
www.single-bass.co.uk/what-is-single-bass
www.single-bass.co.uk/songs
Sarah Thompson
You are not alone in that feeling; I have been listening to/reading some interviews/articles with Esther Perel, who is a couples therapist in NY, and she writes about the changes that happen to a relationship when children are born. I won't link her article about it because I don't think what she says about the problems with attachment parenting are supportive of unschooling, but I found it useful in some ways.
Acknowledge that this is a real thing; when you have a baby you change. Your affection shifts. Think about the intimacy you share with your child, and how similar some of it is to that which you shared with your husband. How do you find romance again?
Don't look for it to be like it *was*, make it what it *can be*. Use the principles of unschooling to love what is, as Byron Katie says; turn around your criticisms and frustrations into ways you can work on *yourself* to be a better partner. Every time you feel like *he should* do something, or not do something, give yourself that advice instead. I have found this useful in every relationship, of every nature, that I was unhappy with and that I wanted to be successful in.
And rekindle. Take baby steps. Do little things. Do things that are different. Have you gotten stuck in a tired routine? Set up a little table with a bottle of wine on the front porch and greet him with it one day. Know that he might not react the way you want at first, but do it for *yourself* with the same joy that you put into making things fresh and new with your child. When the kids were really little, I didn't put any emphasis on scheduled separate couple time-we made it happen when we could, five minutes, ten minutes to stop and connect in some way. As they get older, it's easier to get some space when we need it, because they understand and *want* us to be a couple, as well as Mom and Dad. What's more comforting than knowing your parents love each other? That's how you can trust that the family unit is intact and protective.
Esther Perel made a joke about Americans (she's from Belgium). She said, "Americans love to marry. They do it three, four times." It's not about realizing you chose poorly, and that the perfect marriage is to that *other* person. It's that marriages require work and flexibility, and acknowledgment that they change and flow. You and he aren't who you were before kids and responsibilities; that's okay. Open yourself up to finding what you can be as a couple and a family.
Sarah
Shira Rocklin
One small piece of it is to recognise how time changes those feelings. They seem to mature and change. I don't know if this is universal to all relationships, but it seems to me that the initial infatuation aspect of love wears off in the first few years and what is left is a deeper sort of relationship, a deeper knowing of the other person. Connection and appreciation, partnership, and intimacy. Passion and lust and all those fiery aspects of relationships have faded somewhat. They are still there but not the drive of our connection at this stage. I've been married for 14 years. The flip side of this is also less disagreements... They don't seem so immediate or important, it's much easier to just let things go.
Hope this is helpful in some way.
Shira
--
Shira Rocklin
Hypnobabies Childbirth Hypnosis Instructor
Sandra Dodd
-=-Passion and lust and all those fiery aspects of relationships have faded somewhat. They are still there-=-
They might not be there, but they can’t always be there. There are biochemical realities of human mating. It’s the “falling in love” and having the hots for someone. Those are real, not imaginary. :-) They take over thought and behavior for a little while.
Some people get addicted to that feeling, or come to think that it should last for 50 years, and so they break up and start again, over and over.
Gratitude and a feeling of abundance can help move toward a new kind of passion and love.
Joyce brought this list to a discussion once, and I think it’s a very good one:
http://www.chestnuthillinstitute.com/blog/648
On my site, http://sandradodd.com/spouses has ideas and links to more.
Sandra
They might not be there, but they can’t always be there. There are biochemical realities of human mating. It’s the “falling in love” and having the hots for someone. Those are real, not imaginary. :-) They take over thought and behavior for a little while.
Some people get addicted to that feeling, or come to think that it should last for 50 years, and so they break up and start again, over and over.
Gratitude and a feeling of abundance can help move toward a new kind of passion and love.
Joyce brought this list to a discussion once, and I think it’s a very good one:
http://www.chestnuthillinstitute.com/blog/648
On my site, http://sandradodd.com/spouses has ideas and links to more.
Sandra
amberuby@...
I've recently become aware of research by John Gottman. If you can get access to his books, they might be helpful to you.
I'm currently reading The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work - you can get a synopsis on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Principles_for_Making_Marriage_Work) but the book itself has questionnaires and exercises for each of the principles, including a seven week course on nurturing fondness and admiration! Even if your husband was not interested in doing any of those exercises with you, that one alone might be interesting for you to try.
I'm also reading The Relationship Cure, also by Gottman. It is not quite as focused on marriage, but rather all types of relationships. He speaks about how we "bid" for attention (sometimes in negative ways), and that there are 3 types of responses to bids - turning toward (the best one), turning away, and turning against. It's a more in-depth look at the third principle from the first book, and I like how it can apply to many different kinds of relationships.
I'm also reading The Relationship Cure, also by Gottman. It is not quite as focused on marriage, but rather all types of relationships. He speaks about how we "bid" for attention (sometimes in negative ways), and that there are 3 types of responses to bids - turning toward (the best one), turning away, and turning against. It's a more in-depth look at the third principle from the first book, and I like how it can apply to many different kinds of relationships.
Anna Black
This is something I recognise from my own marriage. High needs baby/ies and toddlers, feeling totally disconnected from my husband who I had loved for more than a decade before we had children.
First of all, looking back, I was depressed and shocked after my first very needy baby was born. She wasn’t what I expected and I adjusted a lot around her and her needs. Plus I was exhausted and sleep deprived for more than two - three years. Plus my husband also got depressed and felt like I had stopped loving him, I thought he’d stopped loving me, it all spiralled.
When my oldest was three and my youngest was just over one, I started to feel more and more like I wanted to be close again. I missed that closeness and happiness between us so much, even though we felt so disconnected. I started asking to talk about it, to tell him I felt so sad and missed us. it took a little while and quite a few tries, he had kind of shut himself off from me. But I kept trying, doing little nice things when I could. For us, just changing behaviour wasn’t enough, we needed to discuss what had gone wrong.
We did talk properly about what had happened, why we had become so sad and far apart from each other. We realised it had been bad for both of us, not just one person angry at the other. We apologised and acknowledged our parts in it all.
Seeing how sad my husband had been broke through all the resentment I had built up against him and my feelings for him came flooding back. I knew they had been there all along, I just couldn’t feel them. Over time, we have built our relationship back up again, and although things have still been up and down over the 8 years since then, mostly we have been very happy and continue to do better generally.
Having time together helps, but as attachment parents and now unschoolers we have never done the ‘go away for a week alone’ or even ‘weekly date nights’ that get recommended. We do have time together every day, but really it’s more about a loving attitude. And I have acknowledged and accepted that I am the emotional base of the household - if I can remain cheerful and loving and not be too affected by his tendency to pessimism and worry then things are much better for all of us. It’s unreasonable to expect that to change, it’s been like that since long before we were married and I married him with my eyes open.
So the loving gestures and kindnesses extended to my husband help a lot, but for us we needed to clear the air a lot first. Otherwise it would have been too much like papering over the cracks.
First of all, looking back, I was depressed and shocked after my first very needy baby was born. She wasn’t what I expected and I adjusted a lot around her and her needs. Plus I was exhausted and sleep deprived for more than two - three years. Plus my husband also got depressed and felt like I had stopped loving him, I thought he’d stopped loving me, it all spiralled.
When my oldest was three and my youngest was just over one, I started to feel more and more like I wanted to be close again. I missed that closeness and happiness between us so much, even though we felt so disconnected. I started asking to talk about it, to tell him I felt so sad and missed us. it took a little while and quite a few tries, he had kind of shut himself off from me. But I kept trying, doing little nice things when I could. For us, just changing behaviour wasn’t enough, we needed to discuss what had gone wrong.
We did talk properly about what had happened, why we had become so sad and far apart from each other. We realised it had been bad for both of us, not just one person angry at the other. We apologised and acknowledged our parts in it all.
Seeing how sad my husband had been broke through all the resentment I had built up against him and my feelings for him came flooding back. I knew they had been there all along, I just couldn’t feel them. Over time, we have built our relationship back up again, and although things have still been up and down over the 8 years since then, mostly we have been very happy and continue to do better generally.
Having time together helps, but as attachment parents and now unschoolers we have never done the ‘go away for a week alone’ or even ‘weekly date nights’ that get recommended. We do have time together every day, but really it’s more about a loving attitude. And I have acknowledged and accepted that I am the emotional base of the household - if I can remain cheerful and loving and not be too affected by his tendency to pessimism and worry then things are much better for all of us. It’s unreasonable to expect that to change, it’s been like that since long before we were married and I married him with my eyes open.
So the loving gestures and kindnesses extended to my husband help a lot, but for us we needed to clear the air a lot first. Otherwise it would have been too much like papering over the cracks.
pachamamasgirl@...
This is also my first post. Per Sandra's suggestion( and that of so many other wise members), i have been reading a little, waiting a little, trying a little and watching. And I have seen my life and that of my family transform into more peaceful and joyful ones. And so i share what is working for me in reference to your post.
The first thing that strikes me is your use of the word "should" a couple of times in your description of the situation and how you feel about it. I do realize that english is not your first language but the words we use to speak ( and translate) are often reflective of the words we use to think ( i may be paraphrasing Sandra again).
I have found "should" to be a confining word that serves to separate me from joy in the moment and make me feel stuck. "I should ______ ( fill in the blank) and i am not" so therefore I feel guilt shame and frustration with myself. "He should ______( fill in the blank) and he is not" therefore I feel disappointed, deprived, frustrated or even angry.
I found replacing the word "should" with "could" opens doors into possibility and joy. I could respond this way, I could take this action, I could look at it this way. Using the word "could" takes me out of those feelings that dont take me in the direction of where I desire to go ( joy and peace) and puts me solidly into realizing that it all boils down to my choice which is both liberating and empowering and places me solidly in feelings which do take me incrementally closer to that joy and peace which is my ultimate goal in each moment.
This is very conducive to and helpful with our unschooling life.
For the purposes of unschooling working, which is what this site is all about, I have learned that an intact family unit is helpful. This has been life changing when choosing in what way I could view and interact in my relationship with my husband. I have identified my highest clear priority as my daughter, Gaia, and our whole family living, growing and thriving in joy and peace right now and ongoing. In keeping with this, when I come to a choice point ( a point when I am presented with a choice of how to view or respond to whatever has come up in the moment) I hold each possible choice up against this highest clear priority and ask myself "is what I am about to choose to think about, say or do going to take me at least one step closer to the joy and peace today that is my highest clear priority?". If I cannot see clearly that it will, I choose not to think, say or do it.
This tool has helped me as I have come to see that what I choose to think about affects how I feel.
When I look at my husband and choose to notice, think about and therefore focus on any or all of the things he is not doing that I would prefer he did, or if I choose to notice, think about and focus upon what is not present in our relationship or lives, I might feel sadness or disenchantment ( literally a lack of magic).
But when I choose to look at my husband like I do our daughter and choose to notice, think about and therefore focus on what is good and beautiful and fun about what he is doing, saying or wearing then I find I feel happy and am able to connect with that magic spark of wonder and discovery (enchantment vs disenchantment). This generates gratitude and my feeling gratitude and seeing things I am grateful for helps me find, see and create more things I am grateful for.
The thoughts I choose directly affect the feelings I have. This is not burying my head in the sand in denial of what is but choosing consciously to pay attention to another aspect of things that equally exists. And what we look at influences the direction we go.
Have you ever ridden a bike? In my experience, if I see a hole coming up in the road in front of me, a hole I definitely don't want to end up in, if I keep desperately staring at that hole before I know it my bike is headed right toward that darn hole. But if I choose to chart a path that goes on and to a smooth patch of road I will likely successfully avoid the hole and move forward on smoother ground. It really is this simple.
So when I look at my husband I choose to find and see whatever is going on in the moment that is appealing,interesting, beautiful and I find myself loving him more each day.
As I write this my husband is sitting on the couch with his legs propped up, watching tv and web surfing. Our house is a mess and my ankle is broken and I am choosing to take care of myself and it by keeping my weight off of it. In previous times I would have habitually engaged in the following types of thoughts : "He should be up washing those dishes. I can't and so he should. I and our family's comfort must not be a priority for him". These are all thoughts that may not even be true, and definitely would not take me in the direction of my highest clear priority and would leave me feeling angry and sad about the state of our relationship and family.
Now I look at him and choose to notice how content he is, that all members of our family are in the same room having fun and relaxation in each others presence. I choose to be grateful that spending relaxed and peaceful time with his family is his choice rather than obsessing about a sink full of dishes that will still be there tomorrow. When I choose these thoughts I feel love, peace with and gratitude for him and our relationship and family, in the moment, which opens the door to me seeing even more beautiful and special things about him next time.
Additionally, because I feel better, I find myself speaking with and treating him more sweetly and kindly. And because he was spoken with and treated more kindly he feels better, is better and consistently shows up as someone I choose to love more. Wow! I have come to see as noted in other responses, that the first love that we feel when we initially hook up with someone is real, powerful and seemingly just happens to us. The feelings show up and we take note of their powerful presence.
In contrast, I have found that the love that sustains and nurtures a marriage and family doesn't just happen. It is something that is created and nurtured. If I have fallen out of love with someone and I would like to be in love with them again (not in the original sexual attraction/excitement way but in the way that is nurturing and sustaining) there is something I personally can do about that.
In your post you indicated that the problem is in how you feel about your husband and relationship. You did not identify anything he is doing or not doing or how he feels about you and the relationship as a problem. If this is the case, this is good news. It is good news because you cannot control or have ultimate choice of what he says, does or feels. But you do have the power of choice in what you feel, say or do. So this means that you have available to you what may help to create positive change in this situation should you choose to create it. You may find this empowering.
Finally, I have also found it helpful in our unschooling family and our relationship to utilize those people close to me as mirrors. When I find something that someone is doing, not doing, saying, not saying, etc that I don't find appealing or attractive and is hard to look beyond, instead of using it as an opportunity to take their inventory (what else they do or don't do, say or don't say, could or should be doing) I endeavor to use it as an opportunity for my own growth and change. How am I being like this right now (could be in reference to this person in particular or someone else, even myself) or how have I been like this in the past?
First finding any way I have been like this, objectively and without guilt or shame, gives me the opportunity to have compassion for the other person. This is because if it was easy for me to choose to say or do something that was less than ideal, I can see how it must have been easy for them too. Compassion opens the door to lots of loving possibility and dissolves anger, frustration, resentment. Definitely taking me in the direction I desire to go!
Then, as I look and see how I am being like that or have been like that in the past (and how it was I wandered into speaking that way or acting that way) I choose to consciously do the opposite at every opportunity. In doing so I am continually improving my relationship with myself and others and am more gentle and caring with those around me. Which means I feel better about myself, they feel better and I am giving them the best opportunity to be the best they can be.
Through engaged unschooling I have come to see that it is more helpful to live and exemplify the characteristics I believe would be helpful to my child so that she sees these actions/ choices/ characteristics as viable options because it is simply what she sees valued and working around her. The same principle is working in my relationship with my husband.
When i treat my husband better and exemplify behaviors and characteristics that are helpful and kind to him and others, he feels better, has energy, motivation and space to make more conscious choices, and often creates more of what is being created around him.
What does this yield? My finding, noticing and focusing on even more reasons to love him.
And so it grows. There was a documentary a number of years ago called "I am". It posed two questions. "What is wrong with the world ?" And also "What is the solution?" For both questions they came up with the same answer. "I am." Setting aside the premise of the documentary, I find the question and answer helpful and use this as an empowering reminder that so many of the things that make up the quality and breadth of my life really are up to me. Wakana
The first thing that strikes me is your use of the word "should" a couple of times in your description of the situation and how you feel about it. I do realize that english is not your first language but the words we use to speak ( and translate) are often reflective of the words we use to think ( i may be paraphrasing Sandra again).
I have found "should" to be a confining word that serves to separate me from joy in the moment and make me feel stuck. "I should ______ ( fill in the blank) and i am not" so therefore I feel guilt shame and frustration with myself. "He should ______( fill in the blank) and he is not" therefore I feel disappointed, deprived, frustrated or even angry.
I found replacing the word "should" with "could" opens doors into possibility and joy. I could respond this way, I could take this action, I could look at it this way. Using the word "could" takes me out of those feelings that dont take me in the direction of where I desire to go ( joy and peace) and puts me solidly into realizing that it all boils down to my choice which is both liberating and empowering and places me solidly in feelings which do take me incrementally closer to that joy and peace which is my ultimate goal in each moment.
This is very conducive to and helpful with our unschooling life.
For the purposes of unschooling working, which is what this site is all about, I have learned that an intact family unit is helpful. This has been life changing when choosing in what way I could view and interact in my relationship with my husband. I have identified my highest clear priority as my daughter, Gaia, and our whole family living, growing and thriving in joy and peace right now and ongoing. In keeping with this, when I come to a choice point ( a point when I am presented with a choice of how to view or respond to whatever has come up in the moment) I hold each possible choice up against this highest clear priority and ask myself "is what I am about to choose to think about, say or do going to take me at least one step closer to the joy and peace today that is my highest clear priority?". If I cannot see clearly that it will, I choose not to think, say or do it.
This tool has helped me as I have come to see that what I choose to think about affects how I feel.
When I look at my husband and choose to notice, think about and therefore focus on any or all of the things he is not doing that I would prefer he did, or if I choose to notice, think about and focus upon what is not present in our relationship or lives, I might feel sadness or disenchantment ( literally a lack of magic).
But when I choose to look at my husband like I do our daughter and choose to notice, think about and therefore focus on what is good and beautiful and fun about what he is doing, saying or wearing then I find I feel happy and am able to connect with that magic spark of wonder and discovery (enchantment vs disenchantment). This generates gratitude and my feeling gratitude and seeing things I am grateful for helps me find, see and create more things I am grateful for.
The thoughts I choose directly affect the feelings I have. This is not burying my head in the sand in denial of what is but choosing consciously to pay attention to another aspect of things that equally exists. And what we look at influences the direction we go.
Have you ever ridden a bike? In my experience, if I see a hole coming up in the road in front of me, a hole I definitely don't want to end up in, if I keep desperately staring at that hole before I know it my bike is headed right toward that darn hole. But if I choose to chart a path that goes on and to a smooth patch of road I will likely successfully avoid the hole and move forward on smoother ground. It really is this simple.
So when I look at my husband I choose to find and see whatever is going on in the moment that is appealing,interesting, beautiful and I find myself loving him more each day.
As I write this my husband is sitting on the couch with his legs propped up, watching tv and web surfing. Our house is a mess and my ankle is broken and I am choosing to take care of myself and it by keeping my weight off of it. In previous times I would have habitually engaged in the following types of thoughts : "He should be up washing those dishes. I can't and so he should. I and our family's comfort must not be a priority for him". These are all thoughts that may not even be true, and definitely would not take me in the direction of my highest clear priority and would leave me feeling angry and sad about the state of our relationship and family.
Now I look at him and choose to notice how content he is, that all members of our family are in the same room having fun and relaxation in each others presence. I choose to be grateful that spending relaxed and peaceful time with his family is his choice rather than obsessing about a sink full of dishes that will still be there tomorrow. When I choose these thoughts I feel love, peace with and gratitude for him and our relationship and family, in the moment, which opens the door to me seeing even more beautiful and special things about him next time.
Additionally, because I feel better, I find myself speaking with and treating him more sweetly and kindly. And because he was spoken with and treated more kindly he feels better, is better and consistently shows up as someone I choose to love more. Wow! I have come to see as noted in other responses, that the first love that we feel when we initially hook up with someone is real, powerful and seemingly just happens to us. The feelings show up and we take note of their powerful presence.
In contrast, I have found that the love that sustains and nurtures a marriage and family doesn't just happen. It is something that is created and nurtured. If I have fallen out of love with someone and I would like to be in love with them again (not in the original sexual attraction/excitement way but in the way that is nurturing and sustaining) there is something I personally can do about that.
In your post you indicated that the problem is in how you feel about your husband and relationship. You did not identify anything he is doing or not doing or how he feels about you and the relationship as a problem. If this is the case, this is good news. It is good news because you cannot control or have ultimate choice of what he says, does or feels. But you do have the power of choice in what you feel, say or do. So this means that you have available to you what may help to create positive change in this situation should you choose to create it. You may find this empowering.
Finally, I have also found it helpful in our unschooling family and our relationship to utilize those people close to me as mirrors. When I find something that someone is doing, not doing, saying, not saying, etc that I don't find appealing or attractive and is hard to look beyond, instead of using it as an opportunity to take their inventory (what else they do or don't do, say or don't say, could or should be doing) I endeavor to use it as an opportunity for my own growth and change. How am I being like this right now (could be in reference to this person in particular or someone else, even myself) or how have I been like this in the past?
First finding any way I have been like this, objectively and without guilt or shame, gives me the opportunity to have compassion for the other person. This is because if it was easy for me to choose to say or do something that was less than ideal, I can see how it must have been easy for them too. Compassion opens the door to lots of loving possibility and dissolves anger, frustration, resentment. Definitely taking me in the direction I desire to go!
Then, as I look and see how I am being like that or have been like that in the past (and how it was I wandered into speaking that way or acting that way) I choose to consciously do the opposite at every opportunity. In doing so I am continually improving my relationship with myself and others and am more gentle and caring with those around me. Which means I feel better about myself, they feel better and I am giving them the best opportunity to be the best they can be.
Through engaged unschooling I have come to see that it is more helpful to live and exemplify the characteristics I believe would be helpful to my child so that she sees these actions/ choices/ characteristics as viable options because it is simply what she sees valued and working around her. The same principle is working in my relationship with my husband.
When i treat my husband better and exemplify behaviors and characteristics that are helpful and kind to him and others, he feels better, has energy, motivation and space to make more conscious choices, and often creates more of what is being created around him.
What does this yield? My finding, noticing and focusing on even more reasons to love him.
And so it grows. There was a documentary a number of years ago called "I am". It posed two questions. "What is wrong with the world ?" And also "What is the solution?" For both questions they came up with the same answer. "I am." Setting aside the premise of the documentary, I find the question and answer helpful and use this as an empowering reminder that so many of the things that make up the quality and breadth of my life really are up to me. Wakana
kerry bennassar
Dear Parents,
I'm just cutting and pasting this for you quickly because I need to go to sleep. This has strengthened my marriage and connected our whole family deeply. My husband, two boys and I practice this in our family once a week. We usually just do the flower watering with the kids but have slowly been adding more as they have been getting older. It has changed our life profoundly.
Have a good night,
Kerry
Beginning Anew
Photo by Duc.
Thich Nhat Hanh on how to make the meaningful ceremony of “Beginning Anew” part of your life — including his unique practice of mindfulness, “hugging meditation.”
Beginning Anew is not to ask for forgiveness. Beginning Anew is to change your mind and heart, to transform the ignorance that brought about wrong actions of body, speech, and mind, and to help you cultivate your mind of love. Your shame and guilt will disappear, and you will begin to experience the joy of being alive. All wrongdoings arise in the mind. It is through the mind that wrongdoings can disappear.
At Plum Village, we practice a ceremony of Beginning Anew every week. Everyone sits in a circle with a vase of fresh flowers in the center, and we follow our breathing as we wait for the facilitator to begin.
Your shame and guilt will disappear, and you will begin to experience the joy of being alive. All wrongdoings arise in the mind. It is through the mind that wrongdoings can disappear.
The ceremony has three parts: flower watering, expressing regrets, and expressing hurts and difficulties. This practice can prevent feelings of hurt from building up over the weeks and helps make the situation safe for everyone in the community.
We begin with flower watering. When someone is ready to speak, she joins her palms and the others join their palms to show that she has the right to speak. Then she stands, walks slowly to the flower, takes the vase in her hands, and returns to her seat. When she speaks, her words reflect the freshness and beauty of the flower that is in her hand.
During flower watering, each speaker acknowledges the wholesome, wonderful qualities of the others. It is not flattery; we always speak the truth. Everyone has some strong points that can be seen with awareness. No one can interrupt the person holding the flower. She is allowed as much time as she needs, and everyone else practices deep listening.
When she is finished speaking, she stands up and slowly returns the vase to the center of the room.
In the second part of the ceremony, we express regrets for anything we have done to hurt others. It does not take more than one thoughtless phrase to hurt someone. The ceremony of Beginning Anew is an opportunity for us to recall some regret from earlier in the week and undo it.
In the third part of the ceremony, we express ways in which others have hurt us. Loving speech is crucial. We want to heal the community, not harm it. We speak frankly, but we do not want to be destructive. Listening meditation is an important part of the practice. When we sit among a circle of friends who are all practicing deep listening, our speech becomes more beautiful and more constructive. We never blame or argue.
Compassionate listening is crucial. We listen with the willingness to relieve the suffering of the other person, not to judge or argue with her. We listen with all our attention. Even if we hear something that is not true, we continue to listen deeply so the other person can express her pain and release the tensions within herself. If we reply to her or correct her, the practice will not bear fruit. We just listen. If we need to tell the other person that her perception was not correct, we can do that a few days later, privately and calmly. Then, at the next Beginning Anew session, she may be the person who rectifies the error and we will not have to say anything. We close the ceremony with a song or by holding hands with everyone in the circle and breathing for a minute. Sometimes we end with hugging meditation.
Hugging meditation is a practice I invented. In 1966, a woman poet took me to the Atlanta Airport and then asked, “Is it all right to hug a Buddhist monk?” In my country, we are not used to expressing ourselves that way, but I thought, “I am a Zen teacher. It should be no problem for me to do that.” So I said, “Why not?” and she hugged me. But I was quite stiff. While on the plane, I decided that if I wanted to work with friends in the West, I would have to learn the culture of the West, so I invented hugging meditation.
Hugging meditation is a combination of East and West. According to the practice, you have to really hug the person you are hugging. You have to make him or her very real in your arms, not just for the sake of appearances, patting him on the back to pretend you are there, but breathing consciously and hugging with all your body, spirit, and heart. Hugging meditation is a practice of mindfulness. “Breathing in, I know my dear one is in my arms, alive. Breathing out, she is so precious to me.” If you breathe deeply like that, holding the person you love, the energy of care, love, and mindfulness will penetrate into that person and she will be nourished and bloom like a flower.
At a retreat for psychotherapists in Colorado, we practiced hugging meditation, and one retreatant, when he returned home to Philadelphia, hugged his wife at the airport in a way he had never hugged her before. To be really there, you only need to breathe mindfully, and suddenly both of you become real. It may be one of the best moments in your life.
After the Beginning Anew ceremony, everyone in the community feels light and relieved, even if we have taken only preliminary steps toward healing. We have confidence that, having begun, we can continue. This practice dates to the time of the Buddha, when communities of monks and nuns practiced Beginning Anew on the eve of every full moon and new moon. I hope you will practice Beginning Anew in your own family every week.
From Teachings on Love, by Thich Nhat Hanh. © 1998. Reprinted with permission of Parallax Press, Berkeley, CA.
--
Belinda D
My husband and I had been together a long time, over 10 years really really happily, before we had children, and we were both taken by surprise and shocked at how much children changed everything. It was tricky. There were tears, and not just from the babies…. I saw many of my friends' relationships ending through the toddler years, because it IS difficult sometimes. Its fine to acknowlege that. But toddlers grow, everything changes, we changed.
What has brought me really close to my husband as we’ve got older and the children have grown, was something i didn’t see coming and came through the lens of unschooling, and wouldn’t have happened if we had separated.
Many of the things that used to frustrate me about my husband turned out to be things I loved about my son. As my son grew up I learned how to focus on supporting him as a person, partnering him, not trying to make him fit to an expectation of how he SHOULD be, but embracing and celebrating his sensitivity, introversion, the stress he feels in large groups, his lack of inclination to ‘go out and about’ etc. I now treasure his quick wit, his kindness, his consideration for others, his refusal to ‘tow the line’ if it doesn’t suit him, etc. rather than worrying that, for example, he doesn’t play football and go out much.
Then…. tada! I realised that these traits that I was supporting and cherishing in my son were the same as some of the ones that annoyed me in my husband! For example I got annoyed because he didn’t want to ‘go out’, we never went dancing or to festivals. But I totally accepted that in my son. Once I saw that he didn’t do these things not because he wasn’t being my perfect husband, but as an expression of his innate personality and had been that way as a boy and probably always would be, I learned to support and cherish him i the same way - how cool to have two of these lovely sensitive men in my life! It is beautiful seeing them reflected in each other and beautiful to learn to support and cherish them both.
So, in summary, unschooling my son helped my relationship with my husband in ways I would never have forseen, and I am so glad to bear witness to them growing together day by day. It’s very important to take the long view.
Best wishes,
Belinda
What has brought me really close to my husband as we’ve got older and the children have grown, was something i didn’t see coming and came through the lens of unschooling, and wouldn’t have happened if we had separated.
Many of the things that used to frustrate me about my husband turned out to be things I loved about my son. As my son grew up I learned how to focus on supporting him as a person, partnering him, not trying to make him fit to an expectation of how he SHOULD be, but embracing and celebrating his sensitivity, introversion, the stress he feels in large groups, his lack of inclination to ‘go out and about’ etc. I now treasure his quick wit, his kindness, his consideration for others, his refusal to ‘tow the line’ if it doesn’t suit him, etc. rather than worrying that, for example, he doesn’t play football and go out much.
Then…. tada! I realised that these traits that I was supporting and cherishing in my son were the same as some of the ones that annoyed me in my husband! For example I got annoyed because he didn’t want to ‘go out’, we never went dancing or to festivals. But I totally accepted that in my son. Once I saw that he didn’t do these things not because he wasn’t being my perfect husband, but as an expression of his innate personality and had been that way as a boy and probably always would be, I learned to support and cherish him i the same way - how cool to have two of these lovely sensitive men in my life! It is beautiful seeing them reflected in each other and beautiful to learn to support and cherish them both.
So, in summary, unschooling my son helped my relationship with my husband in ways I would never have forseen, and I am so glad to bear witness to them growing together day by day. It’s very important to take the long view.
Best wishes,
Belinda
jsearthmom@...
>>But now I recognise more and more, that the feelingstoward my husband are not what I like them to be (I know that this somehow sounds strange). I really miss the feeling of affection, closeness and (physical) attraction.<<
My marriage went through a rough patch over the last few years. And most of what was happening, was happening inside my head. Some things were external, like the way I treated my husband, but it wasn't awful, just not what I wanted to be.
I made the decision to go to therapy (by myself) for a while to sort out my thinking with help from another. As this was done, I made a decision to recommit to my marriage. This decision helped (and still helps) me make better choices because once I knew I was staying, I was challenged to take action to make things better between us. The best changes are the small moments, 5 minutes here, 10 minutes there, where I am able to give him my full attention.
Now that my children are getting older, it is easier to take longer periods of time to get away for a date night, but this is maybe less important than knowing, in each interaction, that my goal is to stay married and make my marriage as happy and peaceful as it can be.
Karen
Sandra Dodd
-=-
Beginning Anew
BY THICH NHAT HANH-=-
I like the part about hugging. Anyone who skipped reading all of that might want to at least go back to Kerry Bennassar’s post and read that section.
Thich Nhat Hanh is the source-inspiration for my co-speaker in the recording (free, play it right there, or download it from the internet archive) here:
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
Safari isn’t showing me the player, but does have the download link.
Google Chrome shows both.
I hope your browser is kind to you than Safari is to me lately. :-)
It’s about 4/5 the way down the page.
Sandra
Beginning Anew
BY THICH NHAT HANH-=-
I like the part about hugging. Anyone who skipped reading all of that might want to at least go back to Kerry Bennassar’s post and read that section.
Thich Nhat Hanh is the source-inspiration for my co-speaker in the recording (free, play it right there, or download it from the internet archive) here:
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
Safari isn’t showing me the player, but does have the download link.
Google Chrome shows both.
I hope your browser is kind to you than Safari is to me lately. :-)
It’s about 4/5 the way down the page.
Sandra
Charlie K
I´d
like to thank you all for your answers, thoughts and ideas. They help
me a lot and I feel much more positive now (although I am really
surprised that it is not easy for me to tell my husbands (only!) three
positive things each day).
Sandra
wrote about avoiding divorce and the difficulties it brings. I know all
these problems myself and they are so true. I don´t want to do that to
my son or my husband. The problem is, that I am very afraid of leaving
(being left by) my husband, that I have the feeling I´m staying just
because I want to avoid this huge pain of a divorce. I would rather stay
with him because I love him.
Debbie wrote: "Don’t expect so much of him. He will likely grow in your kindness.
If you reject him because he’s not who you want him to be, things will get worse."
If you reject him because he’s not who you want him to be, things will get worse."
I
also thought about this a lot and, yes, there are some things I do not
really like about him. I know this sounds so harsh but I want to be
honest to myself and to this group. I often wish for him to be more
interested in unschooling and new ways of living and in relationships.
To have a partner with whom I could discuss these topics. Each time I
try (and I only try tell him something superficially and not too often)
he is more like "Oh, do not think too much about it, you can´t change
these things", "It is how it is, I do not think this is so bad"... Like
Debbie wrote, I changed because of our son and I also did expect this
change to happen to my husband.
It
also stresses me a lot when he talks about his problems at work. He has
a full-time job and we really need his income (which is not so bad). I
often feel guilty because he apparently has a job he does not really
like but he also refuses to look for another job. Sometimes he talks
about that but he did not really try. I am not sure how to help him
because I am also afraid to loose his income (on which we depend) if he
really would change his job.
Sarah
wrote: "Think about the intimacy you share with your child, and how
similar some of it is to that which you shared with your husband."
I
had some similar thought before I wrote here but I do not know how to
change that. At the moment I do not have the desire to be touched or
kissed by my husband (and again I feel sad and guilty to feel the way I
feel) and I think that he often feels rejected. I feel positive to
change my thinking and expections about him and I really hope that this
also will affect our physical relationship. Before our son was born, I
touched him more, hugged him... Now I hug my son and smell his hair and
that´s fine for me...
Charlie
"jsearthmom@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> schrieb am 15:03 Mittwoch, 2.August 2017:
toward my husband are not what I like them to be (I know that this somehow sounds strange). I really miss the feeling of affection, closeness and (physical) attraction.<<>>But now I recognise more and more, that the feelings
My marriage went through a rough patch over the last few years. And most of what was happening, was happening inside my head. Some things were external, like the way I treated my husband, but it wasn't awful, just not what I wanted to be.
I made the decision to go to therapy (by myself) for a while to sort out my thinking with help from another. As this was done, I made a decision to recommit to my marriage. This decision helped (and still helps) me make better choices because once I knew I was staying, I was challenged to take action to make things better between us. The best changes are the small moments, 5 minutes here, 10 minutes there, where I am able to give him my full attention.
Now that my children are getting older, it is easier to take longer periods of time to get away for a date night, but this is maybe less important than knowing, in each interaction, that my goal is to stay married and make my marriage as happy and peaceful as it can be.
Karen
Sandra Dodd
-=- I don´t want to do that to my son or my husband. The problem is, that I am very afraid of leaving (being left by) my husband, that I have the feeling I´m staying just because I want to avoid this huge pain of a divorce. I would rather stay with him because I love him. -=-
This reads like “yeah, but…”
I don’t really want to… but the problem is…
“Yes but” means “No.”
-=-The problem is, that I am very afraid of leaving (being left by) my husband, that I have the feeling I´m staying just because I want to avoid this huge pain of a divorce. -=-
That might be enough reason. As much a “huge pain” as you might think it would be for you, it would be devastating for your child.
If you really want to do something sweet for your child, keep his family happy and together.
-=- I have the feeling I´m staying just because …-=-
That sounds a bit whiney, honestly.
While you’re fantasizing about the husband you don’t have, the father of your child, the man you (presumably) swore to love for life is not “often feeling rejected,” he has BEEN rejected. Because the baby is enough for you.
"I think that he often feels rejected.”
If you hadn’t fed your child for a week, would you tell us “I think he often feels hungry”?
-=-Before our son was born, I touched him more, hugged him... Now I hug my son and smell his hair and that´s fine for me…-=-
If you don’t fix this soon, someone else might be hugging your son and smelling his hair while you’re at work. And your husband’s new wife will be hugging your son (if you’re lucky) and teling him he needs to wash his hair, while he’s on visitation there and you’re all by yourself.
Snap out of it. I don’t know how else to say it now. Get help quickly.
-=-It also stresses me a lot when he talks about his problems at work. He has a full-time job and we really need his income (which is not so bad). I often feel guilty because he apparently has a job he does not really like but he also refuses to look for another job. Sometimes he talks about that but he did not really try. I am not sure how to help him because I am also afraid to loose his income (on which we depend) if he really would change his job. -=-
All you would need to do is listen to him. Maybe bring him coffee, or a soda, or a beer, or something to drink while he tells you about work.
-=- I often feel guilty because he apparently has a job he does not really like but-=-
You should feel guilty because you’re not sure what his job is or whether he likes it. You’re talking about your husband the way I could talk about my neighbors two doors down. He apparently used to fix vending machines, but now it seems he’s retired. Two doors from that, she apparently was a Japanese war bride. She has a hispanic last name, but has been a widow since before we moved here 20 years ago.
I don’t feel guilty for not knowing more, but I’m not married to them, either.
-=-...but he also refuses to look for another job.-=-
“Refuses” can only happen when someone is pressuring or demanding. If you’re TELLING him to find another job, then that’s another rejection. If he’s making good-enough money and could endure with your support and encouragement, give him that. Don’t treat him like a distant stranger. He is as much of your child’s life as you are.
-=-I had some similar thought before I wrote here but I do not know how to change that. -=-
Every post that has been written has had suggestions for how you could begin to change that, immediately, and gently, and effectively.
Please don’t write for at least a week.
Read what’s here. Go to the links. Follow those links from those pages.
Read a little.
Try a little.
Wait a while.
Watch.
http://sandradodd.com/readaliitle
Unschooling won’t be worth a damn if you end up divorced, and you could very easily end up with a court order preventing any homeschooling ever, if animosity and future partners get involved.
I’m hoping you do make quick changes and that your marriage recovers. I have seen many marriages do that.
The urge to send more links is in my fingers, but my husband just finished a meeting and wants me to play Dr. Mario with him. Go back through the e-mails, go to each link, and follow every link from within, please.
This is free marriage counselling that could make the rest of at least three people’s lives much better. If you’re going to chuck it away, don’t tell us about that.
Sandra
This reads like “yeah, but…”
I don’t really want to… but the problem is…
“Yes but” means “No.”
-=-The problem is, that I am very afraid of leaving (being left by) my husband, that I have the feeling I´m staying just because I want to avoid this huge pain of a divorce. -=-
That might be enough reason. As much a “huge pain” as you might think it would be for you, it would be devastating for your child.
If you really want to do something sweet for your child, keep his family happy and together.
-=- I have the feeling I´m staying just because …-=-
That sounds a bit whiney, honestly.
While you’re fantasizing about the husband you don’t have, the father of your child, the man you (presumably) swore to love for life is not “often feeling rejected,” he has BEEN rejected. Because the baby is enough for you.
"I think that he often feels rejected.”
If you hadn’t fed your child for a week, would you tell us “I think he often feels hungry”?
-=-Before our son was born, I touched him more, hugged him... Now I hug my son and smell his hair and that´s fine for me…-=-
If you don’t fix this soon, someone else might be hugging your son and smelling his hair while you’re at work. And your husband’s new wife will be hugging your son (if you’re lucky) and teling him he needs to wash his hair, while he’s on visitation there and you’re all by yourself.
Snap out of it. I don’t know how else to say it now. Get help quickly.
-=-It also stresses me a lot when he talks about his problems at work. He has a full-time job and we really need his income (which is not so bad). I often feel guilty because he apparently has a job he does not really like but he also refuses to look for another job. Sometimes he talks about that but he did not really try. I am not sure how to help him because I am also afraid to loose his income (on which we depend) if he really would change his job. -=-
All you would need to do is listen to him. Maybe bring him coffee, or a soda, or a beer, or something to drink while he tells you about work.
-=- I often feel guilty because he apparently has a job he does not really like but-=-
You should feel guilty because you’re not sure what his job is or whether he likes it. You’re talking about your husband the way I could talk about my neighbors two doors down. He apparently used to fix vending machines, but now it seems he’s retired. Two doors from that, she apparently was a Japanese war bride. She has a hispanic last name, but has been a widow since before we moved here 20 years ago.
I don’t feel guilty for not knowing more, but I’m not married to them, either.
-=-...but he also refuses to look for another job.-=-
“Refuses” can only happen when someone is pressuring or demanding. If you’re TELLING him to find another job, then that’s another rejection. If he’s making good-enough money and could endure with your support and encouragement, give him that. Don’t treat him like a distant stranger. He is as much of your child’s life as you are.
-=-I had some similar thought before I wrote here but I do not know how to change that. -=-
Every post that has been written has had suggestions for how you could begin to change that, immediately, and gently, and effectively.
Please don’t write for at least a week.
Read what’s here. Go to the links. Follow those links from those pages.
Read a little.
Try a little.
Wait a while.
Watch.
http://sandradodd.com/readaliitle
Unschooling won’t be worth a damn if you end up divorced, and you could very easily end up with a court order preventing any homeschooling ever, if animosity and future partners get involved.
I’m hoping you do make quick changes and that your marriage recovers. I have seen many marriages do that.
The urge to send more links is in my fingers, but my husband just finished a meeting and wants me to play Dr. Mario with him. Go back through the e-mails, go to each link, and follow every link from within, please.
This is free marriage counselling that could make the rest of at least three people’s lives much better. If you’re going to chuck it away, don’t tell us about that.
Sandra
Erin Waterbury
I'm very familiar with a lot of the feelings the OP mentions. I even wrote in here a few years ago asking for help myself. Things have been up and down since then but we've recently had a turning point and for the first time in a long time I felt like I loved my husband again. Not the man I thought I married or the man I wished him to be but the real man who is here with me every day. There was a long while when I wondered if it would actually be possible to get those feeling back after everything we've been through. We still have a ways to go but we're growing together again and now I Know we can do it while I had only hoped before.
For me the key has been to STOP TALKING to him. I talk way too much and it shuts him down because all he hears is that he's messed up and hurt me and can't do anything right. Well, surprise surprise, that doesn't make things better. But when I stopped talking, not silent treatment, simply not bringing up complaints or problems, he was able to relax and stop acting afraid of me.
Also very important has been to stop seeing the ways he isn't living up to my expectations but to see Him instead. As Sandra says "If your child is more important than your vision of your child, life becomes easier." The same thing applies to our spouses. When I stopped looking at everything he was doing wrong and shifted my focus to everything he was doing right, no matter how small, the mood shifted dramatically. He can't let me down if I expect him to be who he is. We've been together more than 10 years now, I know pretty well who he is and what I can expect from him. That I expected otherwise from him for so long was me refusing to let go of the vision of the husband I wished I had. Now, instead, I can appreciate the many positive qualities he has and all the things he does to support us.
I'm very grateful for this group and the incredible advice given here. Its goal is to discuss Unschooling and Learning but all of the amazing advice to build better relationships with our children can also apply to our spouses if we make the effort.
On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:-=- I don´t want to do that to my son or my husband. The problem is, that I am very afraid of leaving (being left by) my husband, that I have the feeling I´m staying just because I want to avoid this huge pain of a divorce. I would rather stay with him because I love him. -=-
This reads like “yeah, but…”
I don’t really want to… but the problem is…
“Yes but” means “No.”
-=-The problem is, that I am very afraid of leaving (being left by) my husband, that I have the feeling I´m staying just because I want to avoid this huge pain of a divorce. -=-
That might be enough reason. As much a “huge pain” as you might think it would be for you, it would be devastating for your child.
If you really want to do something sweet for your child, keep his family happy and together.
-=- I have the feeling I´m staying just because …-=-
That sounds a bit whiney, honestly.
While you’re fantasizing about the husband you don’t have, the father of your child, the man you (presumably) swore to love for life is not “often feeling rejected,” he has BEEN rejected. Because the baby is enough for you.
"I think that he often feels rejected.”
If you hadn’t fed your child for a week, would you tell us “I think he often feels hungry”?
-=-Before our son was born, I touched him more, hugged him... Now I hug my son and smell his hair and that´s fine for me…-=-
If you don’t fix this soon, someone else might be hugging your son and smelling his hair while you’re at work. And your husband’s new wife will be hugging your son (if you’re lucky) and teling him he needs to wash his hair, while he’s on visitation there and you’re all by yourself.
Snap out of it. I don’t know how else to say it now. Get help quickly.
-=-It also stresses me a lot when he talks about his problems at work. He has a full-time job and we really need his income (which is not so bad). I often feel guilty because he apparently has a job he does not really like but he also refuses to look for another job. Sometimes he talks about that but he did not really try. I am not sure how to help him because I am also afraid to loose his income (on which we depend) if he really would change his job. -=-
All you would need to do is listen to him. Maybe bring him coffee, or a soda, or a beer, or something to drink while he tells you about work.
-=- I often feel guilty because he apparently has a job he does not really like but-=-
You should feel guilty because you’re not sure what his job is or whether he likes it. You’re talking about your husband the way I could talk about my neighbors two doors down. He apparently used to fix vending machines, but now it seems he’s retired. Two doors from that, she apparently was a Japanese war bride. She has a hispanic last name, but has been a widow since before we moved here 20 years ago.
I don’t feel guilty for not knowing more, but I’m not married to them, either.
-=-...but he also refuses to look for another job.-=-
“Refuses” can only happen when someone is pressuring or demanding. If you’re TELLING him to find another job, then that’s another rejection. If he’s making good-enough money and could endure with your support and encouragement, give him that. Don’t treat him like a distant stranger. He is as much of your child’s life as you are.
-=-I had some similar thought before I wrote here but I do not know how to change that. -=-
Every post that has been written has had suggestions for how you could begin to change that, immediately, and gently, and effectively.
Please don’t write for at least a week.
Read what’s here. Go to the links. Follow those links from those pages.
Read a little.
Try a little.
Wait a while.
Watch.
http://sandradodd.com/ readaliitle
Unschooling won’t be worth a damn if you end up divorced, and you could very easily end up with a court order preventing any homeschooling ever, if animosity and future partners get involved.
I’m hoping you do make quick changes and that your marriage recovers. I have seen many marriages do that.
The urge to send more links is in my fingers, but my husband just finished a meeting and wants me to play Dr. Mario with him. Go back through the e-mails, go to each link, and follow every link from within, please.
This is free marriage counselling that could make the rest of at least three people’s lives much better. If you’re going to chuck it away, don’t tell us about that.
Sandra
semajrak@...
***I would rather stay with him because I love him.***
Mature love is maintained over time by making many little choices that support feelings of affection, commitment, and connection. After the the excitement of a new relationship wears off, love becomes a mindful practice. Mature love takes effort, attention and care to help it thrive.
Maybe, think of love like a garden. It's pretty exciting in the early stages of planting a garden. One can imagine all the possibilities. We take great care in planting those seeds or seedlings. When they start to grow, it feels like magic. It's exciting! We feel so hopeful. But at some point the growing seems to slow. Some of the leaves turn brown, and we need to prune them. It's not as exciting. It requires more effort. More trust. What we can't see are the roots taking hold. Underneath the surface, the growth is wondrous. It's just not as obvious. The plants still need our care and attention, but if we're stuck looking for the excitement of that early growth, we might lose interest, get bored, neglect to give our garden the kind of care it needs to really thrive and perform well.
I find the process of making a painting similar to growing a healthy garden. Starting a new painting is so exciting! Seeing colour and shape appear on a blank canvas feels like magic to me, similar to seeing little seedlings popping out of the dirt. At some point, as the empty spaces of the painting become filled, that newness is no longer there to fuel the excitement. To make the painting work well, I need to maintain that same level of enthusiasm for the piece through all of the stages of it's creation. I need to pay attention to every mark I make, even (and maybe especially) when it seems like my effort could be lost in the whole. If I can't do that, it'll show in the final piece. The painting will reveal my mediocre effort. That's not the painting's fault. It's mine for letting the joy of making it fade.
Attention and care matter in so many places in our lives where we hope to grow something beautiful and meaningful and sustaining. Love is no different. Instead of focusing on what your husband isn't giving to you, or doing for you, think about what *you* could give and do for him and for your family. Think about your marriage as a garden or a painting in progress. What little things can you do to help it thrive, to make it beautiful? Do those things as often as possible. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by what you find you can create.
Your son is learning from you. Cultivate something nurturing. Paint something worth looking at. Create the kind of relationship that will help your son learn skills that will likely benefit him too.
Karen James
I find the process of making a painting similar to growing a healthy garden. Starting a new painting is so exciting! Seeing colour and shape appear on a blank canvas feels like magic to me, similar to seeing little seedlings popping out of the dirt. At some point, as the empty spaces of the painting become filled, that newness is no longer there to fuel the excitement. To make the painting work well, I need to maintain that same level of enthusiasm for the piece through all of the stages of it's creation. I need to pay attention to every mark I make, even (and maybe especially) when it seems like my effort could be lost in the whole. If I can't do that, it'll show in the final piece. The painting will reveal my mediocre effort. That's not the painting's fault. It's mine for letting the joy of making it fade.
Attention and care matter in so many places in our lives where we hope to grow something beautiful and meaningful and sustaining. Love is no different. Instead of focusing on what your husband isn't giving to you, or doing for you, think about what *you* could give and do for him and for your family. Think about your marriage as a garden or a painting in progress. What little things can you do to help it thrive, to make it beautiful? Do those things as often as possible. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by what you find you can create.
Your son is learning from you. Cultivate something nurturing. Paint something worth looking at. Create the kind of relationship that will help your son learn skills that will likely benefit him too.
Karen James
ilmioposto@...
Think of your son, and all the tender thoughts you have towards him. Think about the type of partner you would wish for him in his future. Try to treat your husband the way you would hope someone will some day treat your son. I see my husband of almost 33 years now as many things, as he is now, as he was when he was 18 years old when we first met, but also as the child he once was (maybe get to know that part of him again, what gave him joy, what worried him... ) I try to remember that I am the one who has care of my husband now. Kind regards, Isabelle
Sandra Dodd
-=- Try to treat your husband the way you would hope someone will some day treat your son.-=-
That’s beatiful and important.
There is too much idealization and fantasy these days—much of people’s unhappiness is unrealistic expectation. And too many friends and relatives are callous and casual about longterm marriage because their own have failed, and misery loves company. And regret loves justification.
Stay together if you can.
But you don’t need to take my word for it. Look into this study:
https://www.amazon.com/Unexpected-Legacy-Divorce-Landmark-Study/dp/0786886161
I’m going to re-post all of Isabelle’s sweet little response in case anyone missed it:
________________
Think of your son, and all the tender thoughts you have towards him. Think about the type of partner you would wish for him in his future. Try to treat your husband the way you would hope someone will some day treat your son. I see my husband of almost 33 years now as many things, as he is now, as he was when he was 18 years old when we first met, but also as the child he once was (maybe get to know that part of him again, what gave him joy, what worried him... ) I try to remember that I am the one who has care of my husband now. Kind regards, Isabelle
________________
Sandra
That’s beatiful and important.
There is too much idealization and fantasy these days—much of people’s unhappiness is unrealistic expectation. And too many friends and relatives are callous and casual about longterm marriage because their own have failed, and misery loves company. And regret loves justification.
Stay together if you can.
But you don’t need to take my word for it. Look into this study:
https://www.amazon.com/Unexpected-Legacy-Divorce-Landmark-Study/dp/0786886161
I’m going to re-post all of Isabelle’s sweet little response in case anyone missed it:
________________
Think of your son, and all the tender thoughts you have towards him. Think about the type of partner you would wish for him in his future. Try to treat your husband the way you would hope someone will some day treat your son. I see my husband of almost 33 years now as many things, as he is now, as he was when he was 18 years old when we first met, but also as the child he once was (maybe get to know that part of him again, what gave him joy, what worried him... ) I try to remember that I am the one who has care of my husband now. Kind regards, Isabelle
________________
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
Erin wrote "He can't let me down if I expect him to be who he is. “
When someone is living in a negative way, that statement could be seen as dark or sarcastic, but it was written as sweet and good. This is hugely important.
There were posts in the queue that I had missed. Sorry. Lots of things happened lately that changed my routine, and other moderators seem to have wandered away. :-)
Thank you, Erin and others, for sharing how things got better in your relationships. I hope the responses will help the family of the original poster.
"He can't let me down if I expect him to be who he is.”
As that was, in context, look for the positive qualities and the value and the humanity and personhood—the small benefits. Find gratitude, and abundance.
Earlier this year, my husband was nearly completely bedridden for over a month. All his meals were delivered in the bed. I had a bedpan left over from a hospital visit years ago, and I was putting overnight pads in the bottom (sticking two of them in there) so he could pee in it and I could throw the pads away (in a trashcan on the porch). It was kinda gross, but I felt good about the solution. It was way better than him needing help every time or trying to deal with spillable urine.
Anyone here whose husband can stand up, walk, and piss in the toilet (even if he misses a bit) should feel gratitude and abundance right now. :-)
Our granddaughter Devyn (she’s eight, and wasn’t our granddaughter until she was five, when Kirby became engaged to her mom, and she’ll be adopted this winter)… is with us when there’s no school and her parents are both at work, so most of this summer. I signed her up for some “camps” at Explora, a children’s science museum. She likes it, but it involves me delivering her and picking her up. The car’s warning light came on today on the way home—nearly out of gas. Oops! Here’s how I get gasoline, when Keith is not in the bed: “The car needs gas.”
That’s all I need to do.
It has gas now, so I can drive her again tomorrow.
I could tell you ten irritating things about Keith right now. But why would I? It wouldn’t be good for you or for me.
Tell yourself ten good things about your husband. You can all have the freebie “can walk to the toilet” if you want it (and if it’s applicable).
If you’re male and reading, adjust as necessary.
If you’re single or divorced or widowed, I’m sorry to bring up something that might be uncomfortable or unhappy. Do the best you can, and I hope another topic will come up that’s more of interest to you soon. :-)
Sandra
Married since 1984, together six years before that
When someone is living in a negative way, that statement could be seen as dark or sarcastic, but it was written as sweet and good. This is hugely important.
There were posts in the queue that I had missed. Sorry. Lots of things happened lately that changed my routine, and other moderators seem to have wandered away. :-)
Thank you, Erin and others, for sharing how things got better in your relationships. I hope the responses will help the family of the original poster.
"He can't let me down if I expect him to be who he is.”
As that was, in context, look for the positive qualities and the value and the humanity and personhood—the small benefits. Find gratitude, and abundance.
Earlier this year, my husband was nearly completely bedridden for over a month. All his meals were delivered in the bed. I had a bedpan left over from a hospital visit years ago, and I was putting overnight pads in the bottom (sticking two of them in there) so he could pee in it and I could throw the pads away (in a trashcan on the porch). It was kinda gross, but I felt good about the solution. It was way better than him needing help every time or trying to deal with spillable urine.
Anyone here whose husband can stand up, walk, and piss in the toilet (even if he misses a bit) should feel gratitude and abundance right now. :-)
Our granddaughter Devyn (she’s eight, and wasn’t our granddaughter until she was five, when Kirby became engaged to her mom, and she’ll be adopted this winter)… is with us when there’s no school and her parents are both at work, so most of this summer. I signed her up for some “camps” at Explora, a children’s science museum. She likes it, but it involves me delivering her and picking her up. The car’s warning light came on today on the way home—nearly out of gas. Oops! Here’s how I get gasoline, when Keith is not in the bed: “The car needs gas.”
That’s all I need to do.
It has gas now, so I can drive her again tomorrow.
I could tell you ten irritating things about Keith right now. But why would I? It wouldn’t be good for you or for me.
Tell yourself ten good things about your husband. You can all have the freebie “can walk to the toilet” if you want it (and if it’s applicable).
If you’re male and reading, adjust as necessary.
If you’re single or divorced or widowed, I’m sorry to bring up something that might be uncomfortable or unhappy. Do the best you can, and I hope another topic will come up that’s more of interest to you soon. :-)
Sandra
Married since 1984, together six years before that
Steph Selby
From my experience, marriages wax and wane. It's realizing when it's waning and acknowledging and attempting to make it wax again. And realizing that your feelings today are really just a moment in your marriage and it isn't permanent. And it's just where it is today, but possibly in a year this unhappy distant chapter will close and a new closer chapter may begin.
Read or watch a tender love story/ movie and think back to those times. Try to remember what made you fall in love. Sometimes it's just remembering the small things you like/ liked about him, rekindle that spark. When you feel the negative thoughts dominate your mind, remember to cultivate the tender parts. If that's where you can be emotionally. You might not be there yet.
Also when people don't like their jobs they can take home negative feelings & may not be able to be as supportive to your needs because they are in a place of need as well. They may be grumpy and negative because they are having a hard time seeing the positive.
When kids are small they need a lot of "touch" time. A lot of mothers go through this, where by the end of the day they are "touched-out."
Also talking about your own love language and his may also help. Each person has their own way of feeling loved, some it's being touched, others it's being listened to, some it's about taking time out for meals together, or doing things together, etc.
Steph
Sandra Dodd
pachamamasgirl wrote:
-=-I have come to see as noted in other responses, that the first love that we feel when we initially hook up with someone is real, powerful and seemingly just happens to us. The feelings show up and we take note of their powerful presence. -=-
This is human mating instinct. There is a biochemical element that overrides other mental functions for a while.
I have a collection of elements of evidence from song lyrics, of descriptions of the effects.:-) And there are a few links to biological evidence, too. This mating / nesting thing would be exhausting if it lasted longer than it did, but some people confuse it with other things (because of language, culture, lack of willingness to consider biological factors that feel too out of our logical control—lots of reasons).
http://biochemicallove.blogspot.com
-=-In contrast, I have found that the love that sustains and nurtures a marriage and family doesn't just happen. It is something that is created and nurtured. If I have fallen out of love with someone and I would like to be in love with them again (not in the original sexual attraction/excitement way but in the way that is nurturing and sustaining) there is something I personally can do about that. -=-
This is a great point.
The first one DOES sometimes “just happen”—like love at first sight. Or sometimes it happens because of the humn version of mating dances. :-) Or sometimes a couple is created in other ways—arranged marriage, convenience, years of proximity, and they still are lucky enough to get the biochemical boost at some point.
The longterm thing is probably better sustained by gratitude, kindness, generosity—“nurturing and sustaining” as pachamamasgirl wrote.
Sandra
-=-I have come to see as noted in other responses, that the first love that we feel when we initially hook up with someone is real, powerful and seemingly just happens to us. The feelings show up and we take note of their powerful presence. -=-
This is human mating instinct. There is a biochemical element that overrides other mental functions for a while.
I have a collection of elements of evidence from song lyrics, of descriptions of the effects.:-) And there are a few links to biological evidence, too. This mating / nesting thing would be exhausting if it lasted longer than it did, but some people confuse it with other things (because of language, culture, lack of willingness to consider biological factors that feel too out of our logical control—lots of reasons).
http://biochemicallove.blogspot.com
-=-In contrast, I have found that the love that sustains and nurtures a marriage and family doesn't just happen. It is something that is created and nurtured. If I have fallen out of love with someone and I would like to be in love with them again (not in the original sexual attraction/excitement way but in the way that is nurturing and sustaining) there is something I personally can do about that. -=-
This is a great point.
The first one DOES sometimes “just happen”—like love at first sight. Or sometimes it happens because of the humn version of mating dances. :-) Or sometimes a couple is created in other ways—arranged marriage, convenience, years of proximity, and they still are lucky enough to get the biochemical boost at some point.
The longterm thing is probably better sustained by gratitude, kindness, generosity—“nurturing and sustaining” as pachamamasgirl wrote.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
I got a note that I added to my page on mental health, but realized then that I should have rought that page here a week ago!
There are things on that page that could help anyone, everyone, but perhaps especially someone hoping to improve a relationship.
"My life has changed more than I can express since finding your website Sandra, I have so much more to learn but my mental health thanks you, as well as my marriage and relationship to my child. Thank you."
Another quote on that page:
"You sharing your ideas and life experience not only changed the lives of others but you saved mine. I've changed to a better person, mother, partner. I realized I'm a good human being. It took me nearly three years, a lot of courage and effort to do better, to be better.”
http://sandradodd.com/mentalhealth
That page has no photos yet (pinterest users wish all my pages had photos, some have said), but I will add some from Just Add Light posts that seem applicable, or are quoting from that, and leave a link there to Just Add Light from each photo. So depending when you see that, there might be photos. Time confuses static posts. :-)
Sandra
There are things on that page that could help anyone, everyone, but perhaps especially someone hoping to improve a relationship.
"My life has changed more than I can express since finding your website Sandra, I have so much more to learn but my mental health thanks you, as well as my marriage and relationship to my child. Thank you."
Another quote on that page:
"You sharing your ideas and life experience not only changed the lives of others but you saved mine. I've changed to a better person, mother, partner. I realized I'm a good human being. It took me nearly three years, a lot of courage and effort to do better, to be better.”
http://sandradodd.com/mentalhealth
That page has no photos yet (pinterest users wish all my pages had photos, some have said), but I will add some from Just Add Light posts that seem applicable, or are quoting from that, and leave a link there to Just Add Light from each photo. So depending when you see that, there might be photos. Time confuses static posts. :-)
Sandra
Kelly Callahan
There are things on that page that could help anyone, everyone, but perhaps especially someone hoping to improve a relationship.
In fact, I was near to sending a letter and expressing my desire to just let the friendship go, when I thought about this thread.
I didn't feel great about sending the letter, nor do I feel great about the current state of our friendship. I felt stuck. The opening and space that simply remembering this thread, and thinking about the suggestions of how to re-kindle positive feelings in a relationship- were palpable. It gave me options, a choice. A way to not just move in big and make decisions I might regret later or that could really hurt someone I still care about, but some small things I could do to repair and move forward with the friendship.
--