Sandra Dodd

It’s nice to see a new question! :-)
Anonymously sent:


We decided to not send our little boy to school when he was 2 and since then we have learned so much and recently have taken the unschooling route as it makes so much sense to us but we still have "wobbles" and both my husband and I, although we are on the same parenting page, are often finding ourselves slipping into controlling comments and are trying so hard and reading books and listening to Unschooling Podcasts. Currently our previously social and outdoorsy loving little boy is now playing Minecraft from Morning to night but we are trying to go with it, keep connection and trust him but we are finding it hard!)

Anyway! What I actually wanted to ask you and the group please is this :-

Our little lad is 5 this month. Recently he has an aversion to trimming his nails. We have gone with it for the past couple of months - we have offered to do it but also to help him to do it himself. He says he is scared because it hurts. He agreed that we could do it while he was asleep which we tried twice but he woke and declined it as said he was scared and it hurts.
The only reason this is now a concern is because his feet are hurting because his nails are growing very long and curling into his own toes!! My husband last night said we are neglecting him and we were both so upset.

We really want to respect his body autonomy and wouldn't ever force it because of his rights and the trauma, but at the same time we have tried talking to him about keeping his feet healthy and explaining that if we/he tried it he may see that it doesn't actually hurt.

However I am aware that to him, he IS scared and it actually may hurt because the tension in anticipation of us doing it must be awful.

We have offered him to do it using scissors, various clippers and even biting them off with his teeth!

Just feeling a little stuck now as they are now not growing well. It has been quite a few months �� Do we wait until he can't put his shoes on because of pain? This just doesn't feel right either! I think we need some suggestions that we may not have thought of.

Many thanks for your help.

Sandra Dodd

Some people don’t like for other people to touch their feet at all.
If it’s not that, maybe he doesn’t like the sound of nail clippers. I don’t. I can’t be in the room when someone else is using nailclippers. It’s different if it’s me, or they’re doing it to me—still not good, but not full-nervous-system painful. What some people get with chalk on a chalkboard (rarer now than it once was) or someone squeaking the outside of a balloon, I get from nail clippers.

What helps me, for me is to ONLY clip mine when I’m just out of a bath or shower (hot tub, when ours worked—poor wooden hot tub gave up in the New Mexico dry heat after eight years—a good run.

For hand, I soak one hand for about five minutes in warm water and then cut those nails. Then I soak the other hand. If I do both at once, the sound starts to bother me before I finish.

Maybe consider doing the one worst toenail, after a warm soak, and see how he handles that.


Another different idea is to take him to a pedicure shop—not to have his done, but to see you (and maybe his dad) have yours done by a professional. If it seems interesting and not scary to watch, maybe he would let you play that at home for him. Or maybe he would be willing to let the pedicure professionals do his another time. I wouldn’t press him to do it right then, but give him time to think.

Your husband is right, about the neglect. There are things parents can’t leave alone. Ingrown toenails can be bad, and shoes are required lots of places, and you can’t say to any social worker or judge “Well, we’re unschoolers, and didn’t want to take away his choice.”

-=-We really want to respect his body autonomy and wouldn't ever force it because of his rights-=-

Somewhere (and not in this discussion, I don’t think) you’ve picked up slogans or “truths” that aren’t true. And cutting a child’s nails isn’t “force” and shouldn’t be trauma, unless you have layered it in “rights” and “body autonomy” that are slogans and not real “rights.”

Sandra

Denise

My suggestion would be to perhsps teach him 'Coping' tools - a way to get past/thru his fears vs avoiding then:)
I do breathing with my son - not really meditation yet, but an quite effective and easy way to be calm by focusing on his breathing with calming thoughts... visualization works too.
I'll suggest to him at random points thru the day: hey - let's do our breathing (in an upbeat happy, positive way)!
Then, whether he joins in or not I'll practice deep breathing... Modelling by saying out loud to myself: breath in/breath out, etc., in the beginning he didn't join in much - now he does more & more.
Now when there a stressful situation - we are more prepared for it!
Best to you.

Heather

Would it be possible to just use a nail file instead of clippers?

-heather

Sandra Dodd

-=-My suggestion would be to perhsps teach him 'Coping' tools - -=-

Rephrasing it without “teach” will be better for helping others with unschooling (and for moving a step closer).

http://sandradodd.com/teach

With Kirby, our oldest, Keith and I helped him to breathe sometimes, and he asked me about meditation one day when he was nine, and I showed him that, with breathing to a slower heartbeat. Lots of times we had already helped him breathe when he was afraid or in pain, and we saw him help other kids as he got older, and was in situations where a child might need help calming down (he taught karate to younger kids when he was a teen, and he worked running gaming sessions and tournaents for a gaming shop—sometimes tempers rose up, but he was a good coach).

http://sandradodd.com/teaching
It might seem minor, but it will make a big difference to stop using “teach” even in thoughts.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-Would it be possible to just use a nail file instead of clippers?-=-

That’s a good idea!
Maybe a variety to try—metal file, glass file, emery boards. One of them might not bother him (feeling or sound, whatever it might be).

Sandra

Alicia González

Hello! 
My son is now 9 years old and he never liked his nails to be trimmed..but I've found ways to make it work for us. I do trim his fingernails every week and  toenails every other week, always after a bath/shower. I use distraction, I offer him to watch his favorite shows while I work on him. Sometimes I do it fast if he doesn't seem to convince or I take my time if he gets comfortable.

There has been some times when he asked me to leave for next day and that's what we do.

Adding another idea to the list of options Sandra gave you..how about filing his nails?..not all the way at once, but little every day..filing doesn't hurt as much as trimming. You can combine that with distraction, watching something..reading him something, he can be playing with little dolls..or eating something he likes. Anything that takes the attention of the action. 






On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]
 

Some people don’t like for other people to touch their feet at all.
If it’s not that, maybe he doesn’t like the sound of nail clippers. I don’t. I can’t be in the room when someone else is using nailclippers. It’s different if it’s me, or they’re doing it to me—still not good, but not full-nervous-system painful. What some people get with chalk on a chalkboard (rarer now than it once was) or someone squeaking the outside of a balloon, I get from nail clippers.

What helps me, for me is to ONLY clip mine when I’m just out of a bath or shower (hot tub, when ours worked—poor wooden hot tub gave up in the New Mexico dry heat after eight years—a good run.

For hand, I soak one hand for about five minutes in warm water and then cut those nails. Then I soak the other hand. If I do both at once, the sound starts to bother me before I finish.

Maybe consider doing the one worst toenail, after a warm soak, and see how he handles that.

Another different idea is to take him to a pedicure shop—not to have his done, but to see you (and maybe his dad) have yours done by a professional. If it seems interesting and not scary to watch, maybe he would let you play that at home for him. Or maybe he would be willing to let the pedicure professionals do his another time. I wouldn’t press him to do it right then, but give him time to think.

Your husband is right, about the neglect. There are things parents can’t leave alone. Ingrown toenails can be bad, and shoes are required lots of places, and you can’t say to any social worker or judge “Well, we’re unschoolers, and didn’t want to take away his choice.”

-=-We really want to respect his body autonomy and wouldn't ever force it because of his rights-=-

Somewhere (and not in this discussion, I don’t think) you’ve picked up slogans or “truths” that aren’t true. And cutting a child’s nails isn’t “force” and shouldn’t be trauma, unless you have layered it in “rights” and “body autonomy” that are slogans and not real “rights.”

Sandra

D. Harper

>
> We really want to respect his body autonomy and wouldn't ever force it because of his rights and the trauma,
> but at the same time we have tried talking to him about keeping his feet healthy and explaining that if we/he tried it he may see that it doesn't actually hurt.

Instead of trying to persuade him to see your point of view, meet him where he is. He is 5yo, into Minecraft, and nail trimming is scary to him.

Approaching it playfully is likely to help you meet him where he is… Maybe he could be a bear who needs his claws trimmed to keep from popping the balloons he wants to play with.

Could he be a crocodile who just needs his trimmed a little bit, under water. He could put on flippers with his toes sticking out, wear goggles, snorkel etc. Any sound would be dulled.

Could he be a miner who’s also scared, but needs his nails trimmed so he doesn’t keep getting them knocked off on rocks etc. Maybe the only tool he can find is a file - filing them down a bit may help get him started.

Playing barefoot at a beach may help to naturally trim his nails.

I heard of someone who collected their nail clippings and tied them up in the toe of a stocking to make a scourer! Maybe a miner could use one of those for polishing rocks….

Debbie :)

Jo Isaac

My son has never liked having his nails cut - it didn't matter what implement I tried - scissors, clippers, he was worried I was going to cut him and said it hurt.

Somehow, he's figured out how to keep them short himself...I just asked him - he said he bites them - both his toe nails and his finger nails. He used to overbite his finger nails, but stopped when he made them bleed - now they are just short, but not too short.

Other ideas (biting one's own toenails might not be everyone's cup of tea...or they may not be that flexible!)....After a bath, shower or soaking feet, toenails can be very soft - sometimes soft enough to pull off with just fingers, or else cut a little bit into the side and then use fingers.

An emery board could also work - but may only once they are a bit shorter than currently. And again it'll be easier if they are soft.

==We really want to respect his body autonomy and wouldn't ever force it because of his rights and the trauma==

You can both respect him and find a way to keep his nails short. If he ends up with ingrown toenails or an infection - you WILL 'have to' force him and it'll be in a hospital - where doctors may ask you uncomfortable questions...better to figure out a better way at home now..


Jo


Ann Hedly Rousseau

 --He agreed that we could do it while he was asleep which we tried twice but he woke and declined it as said he was scared and it hurts.--

It might be worth another try when he is asleep. I used to wait until my infants were deeply asleep to clip their nails and that continued through the toddler years. 

Someone told me about the arm-test when my first son was born. This is where you can lift the infant’s arm to check for the depth of sleep before you move them… like from your arms to bed, or car seat to a napping spot. 

Lift the arm and if there is any resistance they are not deeply asleep enough not to be disturbed by the moving (or in this case, nail clipping). If the arm is absolutely dead weight and floppy, you can safely move or clip without waking them. If they are wearing a long sleeve shirt, you can just lift the fabric to test.

I find that this deep sleep window is about 1/2 hour after falling asleep for my children, but I’d guess it’s different for everyone. With one child I was able to clean and dress a scary cut that needed steri-strips without any extra trauma at 18 months; a time that would’ve possibly required someone else restraining him doing it another way. It’s mostly used for infants, but I’ve used it successfully with much older children.

I think it’s worth another try and could be a very easy way to address nail clipping right now. Good luck. 
Ann

Sandra Dodd

Kirby was afraid of haircuts when he was three and four. I would cut his hair while he was asleep. I told him I might and he said okay. :-)

SHANNON BUCKLEY

Have you tried clipping/cutting them right after a bath/shower?  The nails will be much softer and won't be as painful or painful at all. 

Hugs,

Shan

On Apr 8, 2017, at 8:23 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

Kirby was afraid of haircuts when he was three and four. I would cut his hair while he was asleep. I told him I might and he said okay. :-)

Robyn Coburn

This may be odd, but if it is hurting, perhaps you could numb the area with some orajel (for teething) on a Q-tip before trying the trim. That might work well in conjunction with the deep sleep process.

RobynC.

Anna Black

Reading this made me think of cutting my dog’s nails - it sounds funny, but nail clipping in dogs can be hugely difficult and there are whole Facebook groups set up around desensitising and helping the dog be comfortable with the process.

As well as the suggestions given, especially the ones about letting them soften in the bath, here are some others, inspired by my dog, that may help:


- take him to a beach or tennis court and let him run around barefoot. If it’s safe, he could also do this on the cement pathways
- Start by just touching the clippers (or scissors) to each nail. If he’s ok with that, press them a little against each one. Then leave it for a day
- If you can have him be a bit distracted by a tv show, try just clipping the tiniest, tiniest shaving off one nail. Then leave it again. Over a few days, see if you can clip a tiny little bit off each one. Only ever do one during each session. This is also something you could do while he’s asleep
- use a file, or help him to use one.

Of course treats are a big part of the process with dogs. That might help here too! One tiny clip and then a treat.

He can also try peeling them off while he’s sitting in the bath. That’s actually how I do my toe nails, it’s a habit I’ve always had and I find it strangely satisfying.