vandana.purohit@...

when we play with our son (he'll be six in march), he sometimes changes the rules last minute so he can win...or he makes up his own rule for a game.  Sometimes we say "it says in the instructions to do so and so.."  he may deny it or say his rules are what the instructions say.  we just go with it.. so in kid monopoly..the last times we played, no one was allowed to buy any carnival stands (hotels)..  it makes for a boring game..  has anyone experienced this and what do you do ?  how can we be authentic with our child. 


Another thing is..what is your take on pretending to lose games when playing with a small child when it's a game like many games that are not based on chance but some physical or mental skill..the adult may have the advantage..at least for the time being.   say checkers, or air hocky..etc.  


would love to hear your thoughts on letting kids win in play/games..and letting them change rules. how can we be partners and authentic with our child.  thanks. 

Sandra Dodd

-=-how can we be partners and authentic with our child. -=-

First, drop “authentic.”
Just be yourself, his mom, and accept him as himself, without the overlay of someone’s definition of “authenticity.” It’s not something you need. It’s not useful.

-=-when we play with our son (he'll be six in march),-=-

He’s five.
Don’t rush him. You’re talking about a five year old. In hundreds of areas of life, some kids are quicker than others, whether it’s reading, tying shoes, wiping butt, petting cats, or plying gmes.

-=-so in kid monopoly..the last times we played, no one was allowed to buy any carnival stands (hotels).. it makes for a boring game.-=-

Monopoly isn’t a very good game under any circumstances. When we played, we left out the whole mortgaging properties aspect (house rules) and it could still take days to finish a game.

If a game isn’t fun, put it up high or give it away. Thrift store. Find a different game.


-=-how can we be authentic with our child. -=

Oh! You asked twice in one post. :-)

Look at him, and what he thinks is fun, instead of at wherever you’re looking to see “authetic.”

-=-Another thing is..what is your take on pretending to lose games when playing with a small child when it's a game like many games that are not based on chance but some physical or mental skill..the adult may have the advantage..at least for the time being. say checkers, or air hocky..etc. -=-

Play WITH the game, rather than “playing the game.” Why set him up to lose? Why set yourself up to lose (if it bothers you)? Just play around with it. Talk through, help him ake the best move. Ask him to advise you on a good move.

We play a game called Five Crowns. It’s a dedicated-deck card game. Used to be hard to find, but they’re at Target now. Holly likes it and started when she was six or seven, and wasn’t great at holding cards, but she did understand the game. Still, at our house twenty years later, if someone’s having a hard time figuring out the best arrangement of cards at the end of a hand for scoring, we’ll say “ask Holly,” and she can quickly arrange the cards into the most advantageous arrangement. It was never our goal, but it’s what happened. :-) She’s good at that game and still likes it.

If at any point Holly had not wanted to play that game, we would not have pressed her for even one single hand.

If it’s not fun, it’s not a game.

Sandra

Jo Isaac


==has anyone experienced this and what do you do ?  how can we be authentic with our child.==

I don't know what you mean by 'authentic'? Do you mean 'show him how the real world works with winners and losers?' He's 5 - let him have fun and win - if you don't - eventually he'll decide he doesn't want to play games with you at all.

Yes - my son used to want to always win, until he was around 7 or 8. We let him win. We orchestrated games so that he won them, always. My husband did it with chess, I did it with whatever board or card game we played.  

Until he said, eventually - 'I don't mind if you win, you don't need to let me win.' Now I mostly play games with him as I would an adult - but if it's a game he seems to be losing a lot, I still orchestrate some so he wins - because losing all the time isn't fun - even if he's 10 now (and even for an adult!).

==it makes for a boring game.==

Monopoly is a pretty boring game, even Monopoly Jr. Find games that are more fun. Monopoly Empire is way more fun, and quick, and is more luck based than strategy.

Jo



benjamin smith

==when we play with our son (he'll be six in march), he sometimes changes the rules last minute so he can win...or he makes up his own rule for a game.==

for me, this sounds like an opportunity. the best monolopy game i ever heard of was when one player had landed on a property with a big bankrupting bill. they said: well, you can charge me that if you like, but once i've handed over all my money i'm going to give all my remaining properties to my other adversary (it was a three player game). how about lets negotiate?

there was a bit of chat about it not being in the rules... but gifting is not disallowed is it? now, for me, this makes the game far more interesting.

so what happened? no negotiation was had. the bill was paid. the remaining properties duly gifted to player 3, who went on to win.

what i'm saying is that this is an opportunity to show your son how to live within the confines of artificially set parameters (*rules*). much like some parents have to *legitimise* what they do with thier children when educational *authorities* are involved. do you really want him to operate within the rules of monopoly in life? why don't you introduce loopholes yourself? show him how its done!


On 27 January 2017 at 02:41, vandana.purohit@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

when we play with our son (he'll be six in march), he sometimes changes the rules last minute so he can win...or he makes up his own rule for a game.  Sometimes we say "it says in the instructions to do so and so.."  he may deny it or say his rules are what the instructions say.  we just go with it.. so in kid monopoly..the last times we played, no one was allowed to buy any carnival stands (hotels)..  it makes for a boring game..  has anyone experienced this and what do you do ?  how can we be authentic with our child. 


Another thing is..what is your take on pretending to lose games when playing with a small child when it's a game like many games that are not based on chance but some physical or mental skill..the adult may have the advantage..at least for the time being.   say checkers, or air hocky..etc.  


would love to hear your thoughts on letting kids win in play/games..and letting them change rules. how can we be partners and authentic with our child.  thanks. 


amberuby@...

"it makes for a boring game"

Part of this sounds like you need different games, as Jo said. Sequence For Kids is a good one that lets you strategize to let the kids win without being too obvious about it. Tenzi lets you play with large quantities of dice, which is fun by itself, but it lends itself to coming up with your own rules. Mouse Trap is fun to set up, but took forever to finish the official way, so we kinda let it end soon as the trap was built. Trucky 3 and Animal Logic are both games where you set up a puzzle and try to solve it - but my 5 year old almost always peeks at the answer, or only does the easy puzzles, or ends up playing pretend with the pieces. We have Set Junior, Hisss, Traintastic Cargo, Bird Bingo - most of these we play *with* the game rather than playing the actual official game following all the rules and whatnot. You might also consider looking into cooperative games - Dinosaur Escape, Seeds For The Birds, Race to the Treasure, Hoot Owl Hoot are some of the ones we have tried - that way you win (or lose) as a team. 

The other part of this statement sounds like attitude or expectations that could maybe use adjusting. Playing games with my 5 year old will not be the same experience as playing games with adults - but letting go of what I think ought to happen allows for many varieties of joyful experiences to unfold. And besides, I can show her what it looks like to be a graceful loser.

"Another thing is..what is your take on pretending to lose games when playing with a small child when it's a game like many games that are not based on chance but some physical or mental skill..the adult may have the advantage..at least for the time being.   say checkers, or air hocky..etc."

Have you considered what the point is of playing these? Is it for him to learn the rules? To practice strategy? To move his body around? To practice hand-eye coordination? To be exposed to new things? To have fun? And have you considered how that learning is impacted if he is building up anger or frustration over an impending loss?

I sometimes wrestle with my daughter. She wants me to wrap my arms around her, but not so tight that she can't wriggle free, and then as I try to crawl away she pounces on my back and I am caught. When we race, I don't give my all and she reaches the finish line way before me. If we play air hockey I hit the puck lightly and sometimes it goes under my paddle, or will bounce off my paddle and go into my goal by accident! Happy oops! 

I see helping her win as helping her to feel strong, powerful, capable, et al, and I have no problem with it in the least. Plus it keeps the game lasting longer, and personally I prefer more fun memories to less.

~Amber

K Pennell

I work in a school where my job is basically to play board games with young kids (and do speech, but the games are why they like to come). If a child is especially competitive, and gets especially upset about losing, I often "stack the deck" so they don't lose. I also play a lot of cooperative games at work and home. We have a few great board games from a company called Family Pastimes. I don't know if they're still in business, but the games are fun. We all win or we all lose. .


From: "vandana.purohit@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 9:41 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] playing with children



when we play with our son (he'll be six in march), he sometimes changes the rules last minute so he can win...or he makes up his own rule for a game.  Sometimes we say "it says in the instructions to do so and so.."  he may deny it or say his rules are what the instructions say.  we just go with it.. so in kid monopoly..the last times we played, no one was allowed to buy any carnival stands (hotels)..  it makes for a boring game..  has anyone experienced this and what do you do ?  how can we be authentic with our child. 

Another thing is..what is your take on pretending to lose games when playing with a small child when it's a game like many games that are not based on chance but some physical or mental skill..the adult may have the advantage..at least for the time being.   say checkers, or air hocky..etc.  

would love to hear your thoughts on letting kids win in play/games..and letting them change rules. how can we be partners and authentic with our child.  thanks. 




Ann Hedly Rousseau

Yesterday I was playing games with my 5 year old. We started with a memory game, he was having so much fun, and not playing by the official rules. It didn’t bother me. It was fun. But then we started playing Qwirkle. It’s a new game for me so I was reading the rules and feeling strongly that I wanted to play by the these rules. He just wanted to lay down tiles by taking turns. I started to get mad and thought to myself angrily “he never follows the rules!”. Then I realized that to him I sounded like I was just making up arbitrary rules as to how to play with these colorful tiles with shapes on them. In my mind, I was explaining the official rules. To him I was making our game harder and stranger than necessary. I thought he was making up his own rules and he thought I was making up my own rules. We were sitting in the same boat having no fun! I still want to figure out how to play the game with the official rules, but now I know Matthew’s way, too. 

Lately, Uno Spin is a game that everyone in our family plays following the official rules and it’s random enough that everyone seems to win regularly. Mancala is another one that works for me and my 5 year old. Once I am able to realize why I am uncomfortable (I’m having a problem with the rules) I relax. I tend to also realize that my personal freedom to be an unschooling parent depends on me not following my "original official rules of parenting and schooling young children” and I laugh and enjoy the new game. 

Ann



On Jan 26, 2017, at 9:41 PM, vandana.purohit@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:


when we play with our son (he'll be six in march), he sometimes changes the rules last minute so he can win...or he makes up his own rule for a game.  Sometimes we say "it says in the instructions to do so and so.."  he may deny it or say his rules are what the instructions say.  we just go with it.. so in kid monopoly..the last times we played, no one was allowed to buy any carnival stands (hotels)..  it makes for a boring game..  has anyone experienced this and what do you do ?  how can we be authentic with our child. 


Another thing is..what is your take on pretending to lose games when playing with a small child when it's a game like many games that are not based on chance but some physical or mental skill..the adult may have the advantage..at least for the time being.   say checkers, or air hocky..etc.  


would love to hear your thoughts on letting kids win in play/games..and letting them change rules. how can we be partners and authentic with our child.  thanks. 


semajrak@...

***would love to hear your thoughts on letting kids win in play/games..and letting them change rules***

Our son changed the rules to fit his comfort level and increase his enjoyment.  I thought that took initiative was pretty inventive once I got over the idea that games needed to be strictly played by the rules.  In fact, just the other day, I was organizing some of our board games on a shelf.  Feeling nostalgic, I opened a few.  I knew what I would find.  I was kind of giddy to see inside the boxes again.  Sure enough, in the boxes of those early games were all the little additions that Ethan made when he was your son's age--little paper cards with simple pictures, polymer clay figures, homemade dice.  I put them back on the shelf, feeling so good about that time in our lives.  

The goal for me then was to be together and have fun.  The happy side effect was that I was also supporting Ethan's learning and development, but I was really focused on having fun.  He's gone on to do the same thing with video games as he did with those board games.  He modifies the code in the games to suit the way he wants to play.  He even makes new sprites and effects for select games using Gimp (like Photoshop).  Actually, he and his dad have made quite a few video games together using a program called Scratch.

My husband and I still play games with Ethan (now 14) using his modifications.  We play more video games together these days.  It's great fun to see what Ethan comes up with.  He's quite fair-minded.  For him, just like the changes he made to those early board games, his video game modifications aren't about winning.  It's more about balance, enjoyment and play value for all players.  It's a creative way to keep the game fresh and fun too.  

Once I looked closer to understand what was really motivating Ethan, I found it really cool to see what he was doing and where he was hoping to go with the game.  Try to see more than your son wants to win all the time.  There's likely more to it than that. Embracing what he's hoping to achieve might lead you both in interesting directions too. 

Karen James

Sandra Dodd

-=-The goal for me then was to be together and have fun. The happy side effect was that I was also supporting Ethan's learning and development, but I was really focused on having fun. -=-

For unschoolers, if anything comes before learning and fun, before peace and relationships, unschooling can fail. Peace and fun WILL fail.

Games or no games, live your life so that there are more wins and fewer losses. :-)

Sandra

salsflying@...

My kids ALL would do something like throw a toy right in front of me and deny they had done it, so I researched it and discovered that their brain truly believes if they say something didn't happen (or did happen) that was reality. For big things like hurting another child I would say, "I know you wish that was true, but it really hurt __________ when the rock you threw hit him in the head." And then if I needed to I apologized for my kids because they weren't developmentally ready to do it, a forced apology in my opinion was worse. 
It's important to remember young children developmentally believe things like if they hide their eyes they're invisible to us. 
Playing games with kids is a blast, but why expect them to follow arbitrary rules an adult made up for the game? I love watching games evolve as my kids play it and make it it fun for themselves. We currently have a standard game with three different sets of rules depending on who's asking to play. This morning it might be called Joe's cards, later we'll all play it with some else's rules ( and Joe will play someone else's rules too!). It's totally freeing to experience life without needless adult imposed rules.
And remember, these are GAMES!

Have fun,
Sal

 

plaidpanties666@...

<<show him how its done! >>

Some kids don't want to be shown or told "how it's done." And there seems to be a kind of stage some kids go through with games where the point of the game is really about deciding on the rules of play - making their own rules. One of my kids did that. The other took that idea even further and made their own games. I still have a box (somewhere!) full of taped-together pages and posterboard sheets of home-made games.

It might help to think about playing games with younger kids as being more like doing puzzles with them. You don't expect doing the sort of simple puzzle a 5yo can do to be as exciting as a 500 or thousand piece puzzle. So you take a different set of expectations into the experience, and that changes the way you think about it. It's easier to let doing the puzzle be about the kid and the kid's process, not the puzzle.

Meredith

Rinelle

> so in kid monopoly..the last times we played, no one was allowed to buy any carnival stands (hotels)..  
> it makes for a boring game..  has anyone experienced this and what do you do ?  

My sister and I used to play monopoly this way as kids. Hotels were too scary and made the game very antagonistic. You could lose in one turn.

We would also lend and borrow money.

A 5 year old is playing games for a different reason than an adult. It’s crazy to expect a game played to his level to be challenging for a parent.