Kelly Callahan

My son has a friendship that is tricky- for both of us, though for different reasons. 

Part of me wants to support him in the friendship and help make it work, because he cares about this friendship, even though it is difficult. But another part of me wants to just stand back and not be active in supporting it, and let it run its own course. 

My son has known this boy- i'll call Tom- since they were in a preschool together. Even when they were young, there was almost always a conflict or point of tension in their time together. It was like they were thick as theives, or in conflict. 

Tom spent 4 nights with us this past summer and 3 days were great, but the 4th totally fell apart. It was too long. They both behaved in ways that were frustrating and hurtful for the other one. We worked it out as best we could, and they have hung out together since.

A weekend or so ago, Liam (my son) went to Tom's for the afternoon. This was rare- usually Tom is coming to our place, for a variety of reasons. When I went to pick Liam up, I could tell something had happened. Liam was chattier than usual, and Tom as kind of lurking on the sidelines. Tom's dad mentioned there was an issue, but he had let the boys work it out and he would let Liam tell me about it. When we got in the car, I gave it a little time then asked if he would share what happened. He said no, and he never would. 

He has asked to have Tom over again, but I feel like I am not willing to have him over until I know what happened. I am very familiar with how they usually clash at our house, but I'm not sure what would have happened at his house. 

Liam refuses to tell me. I don't know if this is because he is ashamed for some behavior of his or what. He often shuts down when he perceives or knows he is at fault. i have not pressed it, but just left it as- well, i would like to be prepared for anything that might come up, and for me that means having some idea of what happened at your last playdate. when you're willing to share, let me know.

a little more background: 

The boys specifically bond around gaming. They had great times playing Minecraft via Skype or Facetime a couple years ago. But of course we have been unschooling the last 2 years and my son has had unfettered access to game time and any other games he wants to explore. Tom's family regulates his game time and does not allow him to get any games they deem 'violent.' This has meant that most of the other games my son has been into, Tom doesn't have and cannot play. 

For awhile when Tom came over, I would allow him to use my laptop. Tom would want to game way more than Liam did. Also, Liam moved beyond Minecraft into other games Tom didn't know, so there would be conflict around that. Liam and I did talk about these things- he wanted Tom to have lots of time to play because he knew he didn't get that time at home, but it was hard for him to navigate. I tried to help as best as I could without being intrusive. 

When I found that Tom had created a user account on my computer without asking- or maybe it was a Google profile. In anycase, I was uncomfortable with that and decided that my computer is no longer a default computer for the kids' friends. 

The couple of times he has been over since I made this decision have been OK, but not great. 

There have been other behaviors on Tom's part that are hard for me. He will push on things I have said 'no' to, I think because he perceives that I always say yes, because clearly Liam is able to do what he wants. There's a flavor of wheedling and honed negotiating that bothers me. 

Oh- and when he comes to us, the dad will say- 'please don't let them game for hours and hours.' which puts me in an awkward position. Last time he asked that they go outside and then acknowledged that Tom didn't have appropriate footwear (or clothes) for the foot of snow we have on the ground. But- we outfitted him in extras and I felt obligated to take them sledding (or some other outdoor activity) which he was not very happy about. 

It just all feels yucky and hard. 

My feelings are my feelings, and I am willing to set aside the things that bother me for the sake of my son's friendship and find work-arounds if that's the best thing. But I'm not sure that it is. 

Thoughts and suggestions appreciated! 

--
Kelly Callahan CCH 
Concentric Healing Classical Homeopathy

(207) 691-6798



Sandra Dodd

Until the boys are older, the easiest thing might be to go to public places—zoo, museum, movie, miniature golf, gaming store.

His wheedling is totally sensible and is created by the contrast between his house and yours.

I wouldn’t press to know what happened. Whatever it was, probably Tom got in trouble with his dad, in front of his friend, and that can cause double, triple stress. You don’t need to know everything in the world.

My boys are still friends now with some kids they’ve known since they were eight, and twelve, and fourteen. The relationships ALL have changed, every single one, from when younger kids were needy or sneaky or hyper or pressuring. They grew up. There is value in having longterm friends.

An account on your computer is better than using your account, isn’t it? Unless you have a computer for them to use, for a guest to use, letting him have a user area on yours might be a good thing.

Sandra

Kelly Callahan



On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 3:09 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

Until the boys are older, the easiest thing might be to go to public places—zoo, museum, movie, miniature golf, gaming store.


--- this is what I was thinking.  


His wheedling is totally sensible and is created by the contrast between his house and yours.

I wouldn’t press to know what happened. Whatever it was, probably Tom got in trouble with his dad, in front of his friend, and that can cause double, triple stress. You don’t need to know everything in the world.

---ok, fair point. I was feeling like it would be easier to provide support, diversion if things were getting tense, etc. if I had a heads up about a recent issue, then I could be on alert. But I guess I can do that anyway, just given my own observations of interactions


My boys are still friends now with some kids they’ve known since they were eight, and twelve, and fourteen. The relationships ALL have changed, every single one, from when younger kids were needy or sneaky or hyper or pressuring. They grew up. There is value in having longterm friends.

--- I agree that relationships change, and it's good to be reminded of that. I don't think having a long-term friendship is any more valuable then a shorter one that has better chemistry. 
Sometimes long term friendships can take on a sense of obligation, because you have known the person for so long, there's history, it would be disloyal to shift away because of that history, etc. this has been my experience of some of my own longterm friendships and it's been confusing and painful at times.  I'm not going to support this friendship just because it's several years old out of obligation, or some belief that it's a better friendship because it's been going on for 5 years. 
In this case, my son appears to still want to hang out with Tom despite the challenges, so I'll trust him on that.  


An account on your computer is better than using your account, isn’t it? Unless you have a computer for them to use, for a guest to use, letting him have a user area on yours might be a good thing.

-- if he had asked, I may have decided it was fine. He didn't ask. It was my machine that I was lending to him to use, happily, but I do think creating one's own user account without any consultation to the owner is not OK. I think at age 11, one knows this. Maybe he didn't, but I didn't want to embarrass him about it. When he asked why I wasn't letting him use it anymore, I just said that I had made that decision about all visitors because it was my work computer. And this is true. 
It isn't just with this one child. I have decided not to lend my machine, it's to all kids who come over. I use it for work and knew that if something were to happen to it by mistake, it would be a hardship for me and I don't want to put any kid in any situation where a thing of value could be broken that I would be very upset about. 

We have a Wii-U that multiples can play. My son does take turns on his own machine with friends, though probably not as often as the friend would like and I make it a point to check in about that. 

 I appreciate the suggestion to do outings and let go of what happened at the last playdate. That was what my sensible mind was telling me to do. My small mind was getting wrapped up in details :/




--
Kelly Callahan CCH 
Concentric Healing Classical Homeopathy

(207) 691-6798



Sandra Dodd

-=- I don't think having a long-term friendship is any more valuable then a shorter one that has better chemistry. -=-

And no one should need to choose between two friends that way.

There IS value in being around people who have known you since you were little. I’m surprised at your rejection of the idea of the value. It sounds personal Please don’t discourage a friendship your child has because of your own baggage or prejudice.

-=-I'm not going to support this friendship just because it's several years old out of obligation, or some belief that it's a better friendship because it's been going on for 5 years.
In this case, my son appears to still want to hang out with Tom despite the challenges, so I'll trust him on that. -=-

If YOU don’t like the other boy, you might have legitimate reasons. You might not. You might not even realize that you’re irritated with him separate from what your son wants (if you are). Try to be clear, in your own mind. I could be wrong, but the tone of your first post, and the more defensive tone of the second make me wonder whether you’re not looking to build a case against the friend. Do other things and let the boys have the friendship, I think. That’s my best suggestion.

Sandra

Karen James

***It was my machine that I was lending to him to use, happily, but I do think creating one's own user account without any consultation to the owner is not OK.***

We had a friend who used my computer when he came over to our house.  At his own house he had to share one computer with four other family members, so he loved coming over to our place to play games.  Besides being limited by having to share, he also was only allowed to play for so long at home.  I think it was nice for Ethan's friend to have a bit more time to explore.  The computer of mine that he used wasn't my work computer, but it was my personal computer with all my photos, art, writing, banking and homeschooling info on it.  I gave him a folder on the desktop where he could store his game files, skins, info, etc.  He had a habit of making the keyboard really sticky, and that made me feel a bit irritated, so I picked him up some hand wipes and put them beside the computer.  I asked him to give his fingers a wipe before he played and after he ate.  He was fine with that.  If he had questions, he'd come ask me.  I helped him download the games or mods he wanted to play with Ethan.  I think because I was clear about how I preferred he use my computer, we had few problems.  The best part was that Ethan got to play many hours with this friend, for many years.  Even though we moved away, they have continued playing together via Skype when the friend is available.  Looking back now, despite there being some challenges once in a while, the time invested in helping that friendship thrive was a wonderful investment.  I believe both our son and his friend have fond memories of that time of their lives.  I feel really good about that.

Karen James




On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 8:23 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

-=- I don't think having a long-term friendship is any more valuable then a shorter one that has better chemistry. -=-

And no one should need to choose between two friends that way.

There IS value in being around people who have known you since you were little. I’m surprised at your rejection of the idea of the value. It sounds personal Please don’t discourage a friendship your child has because of your own baggage or prejudice.

-=-I'm not going to support this friendship just because it's several years old out of obligation, or some belief that it's a better friendship because it's been going on for 5 years.
In this case, my son appears to still want to hang out with Tom despite the challenges, so I'll trust him on that. -=-

If YOU don’t like the other boy, you might have legitimate reasons. You might not. You might not even realize that you’re irritated with him separate from what your son wants (if you are). Try to be clear, in your own mind. I could be wrong, but the tone of your first post, and the more defensive tone of the second make me wonder whether you’re not looking to build a case against the friend. Do other things and let the boys have the friendship, I think. That’s my best suggestion.

Sandra


Kelly Callahan


 

-=- I don't think having a long-term friendship is any more valuable then a shorter one that has better chemistry. -=-

And no one should need to choose between two friends that way.


I didn't mean to imply that one has to choose. What I meant was that you can meet someone and become very fast, very close friends and feel that relationship is just as meaningful as a long-time one. Perhaps one might even feel closer to a new friend because of a shared experience, or something. 


There IS value in being around people who have known you since you were little. I’m surprised at your rejection of the idea of the value. It sounds personal Please don’t discourage a friendship your child has because of your own baggage or prejudice.


Yes, I think a personal issue I have been involved in became clouded with this thread of long friendship being brought into the conversation.
 I shared that they boys had known each other for a long time (as 10 and 11 year olds) to put the patterns of conflict they have in perspective- that they've had some issues from the beginning. My son has other friends he has known that long, or longer, with none of these issues, or rather, maybe different issues that we can just roll with. Friendships are relationships and things come up, conflicts and changes and whatnot. I get that. I don't expect easy-breezy all the time.  

is that building a case against the friendship? yeah, I can see that.  



If YOU don’t like the other boy, you might have legitimate reasons. You might not. You might not even realize that you’re irritated with him separate from what your son wants (if you are). Try to be clear, in your own mind. I could be wrong, but the tone of your first post, and the more defensive tone of the second make me wonder whether you’re not looking to build a case against the friend. Do other things and let the boys have the friendship, I think. That’s my best suggestion.


you are right- I am irritated!  I think part of why I wrote to the list is because i was having a hard time getting clear through my irritation and could feel that I'm building a case against it. Which isn't fair to either of them, though because I am involved, as the adult who drives and supervises and provides for the boys when they are with me, I want to do with ease and happiness and figure out what's blocking me from doing so. 

I'm not irritated with the boy specifically; I have compassion for him, I think things are not always so sweet and nice at home though I know his parents are good people. I mean, mild irritation for some behavior but i can let it go. 

I mentioned in the original post about being asked to not let the boys game for 'hours and hours' by the dad everytime we do a pick up.  I feel a sense of obligation to the parents, even though the boys might be having a great time. I have thought about other threads that have come up about kids coming over from different houses where the culture was different- and I'll go back and try and find some of those specifically to re-read the ideas and advice. 

The other piece is that I have realized about myself is i really don't like being in a position of controlling another person, which is why I love unschooling so much, even though we have only been doing it a couple years. When I look back on the years we were conventionally parenting, the stress at that time for me was when my kids did not want to do what my husband and i wanted to, or i was giving into social pressure to have my family be a certain way. I value agency and choice for myself, and so to impose a way of being and doing on someone else makes me feel uncomfortable. I thought it was hard because they weren't doing what I wanted them to, but in retrospect i realize it was because I did not like being in that position of having to control another person to meet an outside standard or expectation. 

So having this kid in my home who loves this thing his parents DON"T want him to do and who tell me not to let him do it is part of that irritation I'm feeling. 

Which of course brings it back to my problem and seeing what I can do to shift my perspective and create some ease in myself so I can support the friendship my son clearly wants. 










--
Kelly Callahan CCH 
Concentric Healing Classical Homeopathy

(207) 691-6798



Kelly Callahan




We had a friend who used my computer when he came over to our house.  At his own house he had to share one computer with four other family members, so he loved coming over to our place to play games.  Besides being limited by having to share, he also was only allowed to play for so long at home.  I think it was nice for Ethan's friend to have a bit more time to explore.  The computer of mine that he used wasn't my work computer, but it was my personal computer with all my photos, art, writing, banking and homeschooling info on it.  I gave him a folder on the desktop where he could store his game files, skins, info, etc.  He had a habit of making the keyboard really sticky, and that made me feel a bit irritated, so I picked him up some hand wipes and put them beside the computer.  I asked him to give his fingers a wipe before he played and after he ate.  He was fine with that.  If he had questions, he'd come ask me.  I helped him download the games or mods he wanted to play with Ethan.  I think because I was clear about how I preferred he use my computer, we had few problems.  The best part was that Ethan got to play many hours with this friend, for many years.  Even though we moved away, they have continued playing together via Skype when the friend is available.  Looking back now, despite there being some challenges once in a while, the time invested in helping that friendship thrive was a wonderful investment.  I believe both our son and his friend have fond memories of that time of their lives.  I feel really good about that.

Karen James

This is lovely. I'm sure this was a big deal for your son's friend.  I want to figure out ways to support them gaming together and being generous without trespassing my own feelings.  

But your story is as good reminder about being clear if something is lent out if there are some parameters there. 








On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 8:23 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <AlwaysLearning@yahoogroups. com> wrote:
 

-=- I don't think having a long-term friendship is any more valuable then a shorter one that has better chemistry. -=-

And no one should need to choose between two friends that way.

There IS value in being around people who have known you since you were little. I’m surprised at your rejection of the idea of the value. It sounds personal Please don’t discourage a friendship your child has because of your own baggage or prejudice.

-=-I'm not going to support this friendship just because it's several years old out of obligation, or some belief that it's a better friendship because it's been going on for 5 years.
In this case, my son appears to still want to hang out with Tom despite the challenges, so I'll trust him on that. -=-

If YOU don’t like the other boy, you might have legitimate reasons. You might not. You might not even realize that you’re irritated with him separate from what your son wants (if you are). Try to be clear, in your own mind. I could be wrong, but the tone of your first post, and the more defensive tone of the second make me wonder whether you’re not looking to build a case against the friend. Do other things and let the boys have the friendship, I think. That’s my best suggestion.

Sandra





--
Kelly Callahan CCH 
Concentric Healing Classical Homeopathy

(207) 691-6798



Sandra Dodd

-=-So having this kid in my home who loves this thing his parents DON"T want him to do and who tell me not to let him do it is part of that irritation I'm feeling. -=-

It’s why I recommended public places. Maybe a couple of hours in a non-video-game environment elsewhere, and then back home to the games. It would be easier than saying no to your own son in his own home.

Sandra