Beware your prejudices
Sandra Dodd
In London in September I did three sessions on advanced topics. I haven’t shared my notes, it wasn’t recorded, but I have one to share today.
Someone on facebook asked, on her page, for people to share.
"What is a NON-POLITICAL opinion you have that is likely to be VERY unpopular?
Go wild, folks.”
__________
People were writing wan things like “I don’t like brussel sprouts” and such, but I thought it might be good to step it up to something deeper. Then I realized this was too deep, so I brought it over here. :-)
I can TOTALLY and fully tie this to unschooling many ways, but at first it might seem not. As you read (if you read) think of similar problems worth looking out for. Other examples are welcome, but discussing the details or validity of these particular prejudices would be off topic. First glean the topic before responding. :-)
_____________________
I responded:
_____________________
Abandoning an interest because of politics or morality.
This one is hard to explain, and I know I'm in the minority.
A friend of mine was a huge fan of Harrison Ford. When he broke up with his wife (15 years or however long ago) she was furious and swore never to watch another movie of his and she gave away her DVDs.
When Michael Jackson was accused of molesting guest children, some people said his songs sucked and he couldn't dance.
Bill Cosby might be an abusive liar, but there were MANY actors on The Cosby Show who haven't been accused of crimes. Will their body of work be buried because some people can't separate an actor from a performance? Chicken Heart and Noah (comedy routines from the 1960's, made when Cosby was young) are still great. Fat Albert cartoons—they are innocent of any crime.
NOT A POPULAR OPINION, mine, but if someone claims to value work/product, but then flips out about something personal, it seems to me they were worshipping a person, and not appreciating music or abilities.
___________________
I added next day:
___________________
Mel Gibson is another in my list of "Yes, he went crazy but before that..." folks. People's judgments of good and bad have a huge aspect of morality and of us-vs.them, and I suppose it's natural and instinctive, but when we're trying hard to control that to be open minded and accepting of people who are different, it seems to burst out inappropriately, as it's stored up and repressed. That's my theory of why those prejudices seem justified, when a performer has sinned.
________________________________________________
End of quotes.
Between my first explanation and the addition of one more actor, there were these comments:
Other #1: Yes, I agree, but often struggle with that issue. Is that what's meant by throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
Me: Partly, probably, yeah. :-)
Other #2: Honestly ? I feel that way about President Clinton.I thought he was a good President..and a crappy crappy husband who made poor choices.
________
That last one skirts getting it back into politics, so try not to do that, as you’re thinking and responding.
If there are outside links to any research or explanation for why humans are this way, those would be find to bring.
I know that was long, but so is life and if it helps you live better, think better, and make better decisions, it will have been worth reading and thinking about it.
Sandra
Someone on facebook asked, on her page, for people to share.
"What is a NON-POLITICAL opinion you have that is likely to be VERY unpopular?
Go wild, folks.”
__________
People were writing wan things like “I don’t like brussel sprouts” and such, but I thought it might be good to step it up to something deeper. Then I realized this was too deep, so I brought it over here. :-)
I can TOTALLY and fully tie this to unschooling many ways, but at first it might seem not. As you read (if you read) think of similar problems worth looking out for. Other examples are welcome, but discussing the details or validity of these particular prejudices would be off topic. First glean the topic before responding. :-)
_____________________
I responded:
_____________________
Abandoning an interest because of politics or morality.
This one is hard to explain, and I know I'm in the minority.
A friend of mine was a huge fan of Harrison Ford. When he broke up with his wife (15 years or however long ago) she was furious and swore never to watch another movie of his and she gave away her DVDs.
When Michael Jackson was accused of molesting guest children, some people said his songs sucked and he couldn't dance.
Bill Cosby might be an abusive liar, but there were MANY actors on The Cosby Show who haven't been accused of crimes. Will their body of work be buried because some people can't separate an actor from a performance? Chicken Heart and Noah (comedy routines from the 1960's, made when Cosby was young) are still great. Fat Albert cartoons—they are innocent of any crime.
NOT A POPULAR OPINION, mine, but if someone claims to value work/product, but then flips out about something personal, it seems to me they were worshipping a person, and not appreciating music or abilities.
___________________
I added next day:
___________________
Mel Gibson is another in my list of "Yes, he went crazy but before that..." folks. People's judgments of good and bad have a huge aspect of morality and of us-vs.them, and I suppose it's natural and instinctive, but when we're trying hard to control that to be open minded and accepting of people who are different, it seems to burst out inappropriately, as it's stored up and repressed. That's my theory of why those prejudices seem justified, when a performer has sinned.
________________________________________________
End of quotes.
Between my first explanation and the addition of one more actor, there were these comments:
Other #1: Yes, I agree, but often struggle with that issue. Is that what's meant by throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
Me: Partly, probably, yeah. :-)
Other #2: Honestly ? I feel that way about President Clinton.I thought he was a good President..and a crappy crappy husband who made poor choices.
________
That last one skirts getting it back into politics, so try not to do that, as you’re thinking and responding.
If there are outside links to any research or explanation for why humans are this way, those would be find to bring.
I know that was long, but so is life and if it helps you live better, think better, and make better decisions, it will have been worth reading and thinking about it.
Sandra
Deb Lewis
***...if someone claims to value work/product, but then flips out about
something personal, it seems to me they were worshipping a person, and not
appreciating music or abilities.***
I think people in part identify who they are by what they love. If I love to
paint, I'm and artist, I have an artistic soul, (whatever that is) I'm
creative. If I love Harrison Ford, I'm a person who recognizes talent. I'm
discerning.
But then here comes our evolutionary history as social creatures. We shame
bad behavior with punishment or shunning. I can abandon Harrison Ford, and
in doing so I'm reaffirming my place in the moral majority, I'm finding
safety in consensus.
We like people to be one thing. We want good guys to be just good, and bad
guys to be plainly bad so we can easily recognize the positions we're
supposed to take. The guy who beats his partner should not be the same guy
who gives us free fruit at the vegetable stand, who rescued a puppy, who
donates blood. It makes it too hard to find our moral high ground.
When we find out something unpleasant about someone we love, someone we're
close to, we can weigh our experience with them against their crime. We can
make excuses for what they've done because we know their history. That's not
available to us when it comes to famous people.
And it's also a matter of the convenience of our moral position. It's not
hard to give away all the Harrison Ford dvds, but it's very inconvenient to
cut off all ties with the bus driver who takes us to work everyday, even if
he deserted his wife.
Deb Lewis
something personal, it seems to me they were worshipping a person, and not
appreciating music or abilities.***
I think people in part identify who they are by what they love. If I love to
paint, I'm and artist, I have an artistic soul, (whatever that is) I'm
creative. If I love Harrison Ford, I'm a person who recognizes talent. I'm
discerning.
But then here comes our evolutionary history as social creatures. We shame
bad behavior with punishment or shunning. I can abandon Harrison Ford, and
in doing so I'm reaffirming my place in the moral majority, I'm finding
safety in consensus.
We like people to be one thing. We want good guys to be just good, and bad
guys to be plainly bad so we can easily recognize the positions we're
supposed to take. The guy who beats his partner should not be the same guy
who gives us free fruit at the vegetable stand, who rescued a puppy, who
donates blood. It makes it too hard to find our moral high ground.
When we find out something unpleasant about someone we love, someone we're
close to, we can weigh our experience with them against their crime. We can
make excuses for what they've done because we know their history. That's not
available to us when it comes to famous people.
And it's also a matter of the convenience of our moral position. It's not
hard to give away all the Harrison Ford dvds, but it's very inconvenient to
cut off all ties with the bus driver who takes us to work everyday, even if
he deserted his wife.
Deb Lewis
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think most people feel their moral outrage impresses people around them whose good opinion they value. If more people knew their moral outrage can also make them seem shallow and self serving, they might consider their positions more carefully. Maybe not. Shame on them!-=-
This might be worth saying, too, but probably not.
One thing people can’t recover from is low verbal and logical skill, so it’s not nice, I keep thinking, to discuss very complicated things where nice people who can’t understand it are. They might start looking for moral failings in me as justification for taking all their friends and shunning me. :-)
This might be worth saying, too, but probably not.
One thing people can’t recover from is low verbal and logical skill, so it’s not nice, I keep thinking, to discuss very complicated things where nice people who can’t understand it are. They might start looking for moral failings in me as justification for taking all their friends and shunning me. :-)
Sandra Dodd
Oops.
I posted something here I thought was private.
The only defense I can make is that I opted not to discuss this topic on my facebook discussion group. Always Learning is the highest-level discussion of unschooling left in the world.
Sorry I marred it some, recklessly.
This all ties in to another advanced topic I discussed in London, and that’s reputation. So I might have lost some points in some people’s reckoning. Sorry. Maybe I can earn back, and maybe not. :-)
Sandra
I posted something here I thought was private.
The only defense I can make is that I opted not to discuss this topic on my facebook discussion group. Always Learning is the highest-level discussion of unschooling left in the world.
Sorry I marred it some, recklessly.
This all ties in to another advanced topic I discussed in London, and that’s reputation. So I might have lost some points in some people’s reckoning. Sorry. Maybe I can earn back, and maybe not. :-)
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-One thing people can’t recover from is low verbal and logical skill, so it’s not nice, I keep thinking, to discuss very complicated things where nice people who can’t understand it are. They might start looking for moral failings in me as justification for taking all their friends and shunning me. :-)-=-
I had also thought (but not written) that it’s one of my failings to be snobby about verbal ability. In person, I have friends who aren’t great speakers but who know lots and are worth drawing out. In an all-in-writing forum it’s harder to appreciate other skills, where words are all we have.
And I had hoped my second post in this topic would be less awkward and more solid. I wanted to say that it’s good to have a checklists of one’s own prejudices in mind before rejecting ideas by someone.
My personal list includes: Texans, New York City, high heels…. there are some other things. But if someone in high heels with a NYC accent starts telling me what I should do, I have a hard time hearing a word of it. It’s just me. So I try to listen before I run away. I’ve learned a lot from various Texans, but only the best of it from the best of them, because I first go idea-deaf and only hear the accent.
Surely there are people who don’t like things about me. I listed things, in the London presentation. I said not to dig around for stuff not to like about me—I could make a list.
American
fat
female
only has a bachelor’s degree, in... as Marty my son said with a bit of comical derision: “Mom, you studied your native language.”
southwest / New Mexico
“just a mom”
I wasn’t always fat. I wasn’t always “just a mom.” But people see you where and when they see you, and you can only “earn points” in that context—how helpful were you? How useful, or amusing, or whatever they needed?
Sandra
I had also thought (but not written) that it’s one of my failings to be snobby about verbal ability. In person, I have friends who aren’t great speakers but who know lots and are worth drawing out. In an all-in-writing forum it’s harder to appreciate other skills, where words are all we have.
And I had hoped my second post in this topic would be less awkward and more solid. I wanted to say that it’s good to have a checklists of one’s own prejudices in mind before rejecting ideas by someone.
My personal list includes: Texans, New York City, high heels…. there are some other things. But if someone in high heels with a NYC accent starts telling me what I should do, I have a hard time hearing a word of it. It’s just me. So I try to listen before I run away. I’ve learned a lot from various Texans, but only the best of it from the best of them, because I first go idea-deaf and only hear the accent.
Surely there are people who don’t like things about me. I listed things, in the London presentation. I said not to dig around for stuff not to like about me—I could make a list.
American
fat
female
only has a bachelor’s degree, in... as Marty my son said with a bit of comical derision: “Mom, you studied your native language.”
southwest / New Mexico
“just a mom”
I wasn’t always fat. I wasn’t always “just a mom.” But people see you where and when they see you, and you can only “earn points” in that context—how helpful were you? How useful, or amusing, or whatever they needed?
Sandra
Deb Lewis
***One thing people can’t recover from is low verbal and logical skill, so
it’s not nice, I keep thinking, to discuss very complicated things where
nice people who can’t understand it are.***
I think anyone suffering too severely from those things might have left
AlwaysLearning early on. :)
There's a lot I don't understand but I can wait it out. It's sometimes
discussions where I feel completely lost that inspire some new thinking.
***I wanted to say that it’s good to have a checklists of one’s own
prejudices in mind before rejecting ideas by someone.***
Peter Boghossian, a philosophy instructor at Portland State University, has
suggested that a useful tool in identifying our own shortcomings might be to
ask, "How might this belief be wrong" or, "how might I be wrong." I like
that very much, but it also takes me a long time to consider how I might be
wrong, and that inhibits me when I'm crammed with witty rebuttal. How might
this be wrong?
***I said not to dig around for stuff not to like about me—I could make a
list.***
There are more reasons for people do dislike me than to like me. I've known
it always, and I care even less now than I did when I was young. I can add
that to the list. But, to my beloved few I have been kind and useful, and
I'm satisfied with that. :)
Deb Lewis
it’s not nice, I keep thinking, to discuss very complicated things where
nice people who can’t understand it are.***
I think anyone suffering too severely from those things might have left
AlwaysLearning early on. :)
There's a lot I don't understand but I can wait it out. It's sometimes
discussions where I feel completely lost that inspire some new thinking.
***I wanted to say that it’s good to have a checklists of one’s own
prejudices in mind before rejecting ideas by someone.***
Peter Boghossian, a philosophy instructor at Portland State University, has
suggested that a useful tool in identifying our own shortcomings might be to
ask, "How might this belief be wrong" or, "how might I be wrong." I like
that very much, but it also takes me a long time to consider how I might be
wrong, and that inhibits me when I'm crammed with witty rebuttal. How might
this be wrong?
***I said not to dig around for stuff not to like about me—I could make a
list.***
There are more reasons for people do dislike me than to like me. I've known
it always, and I care even less now than I did when I was young. I can add
that to the list. But, to my beloved few I have been kind and useful, and
I'm satisfied with that. :)
Deb Lewis
Gail Peters
Sandra,
This is my first comment in the group. Please take it with some humor. I'm a Texan unschooler living in Puerto Rico and my children's verbal skills are affected by genetic conditions. Do I fit your mold? I'm laughing because I totally get what you are sharing. We are all faced more frequently than we care to admit with our own prejudices. If we can't see them in ourselves it will impact how we relate to others.
I left Texas when I was 17 and moved to Mexico to go to college. I moved in with a very wealthy family and everyone made fun of Texan accents and people. I wasn't deeply offended because it gave me a chance to witness being on the other side of generalizations- a good lesson if you're raised in the south. But I was a stubborn teen. I barely said a word until I learned how to speak fluently so I could give them an accent free piece of my mind in perfect Spanish. It blew their preconceptions out of the water and strengthened my skills in the process. The experience opened me to see myself, my language and my culture from a new perspective.
My sense of the rich opportunity in unschooliing is that it opens us to daily opportunities for innocent perception, fresh takes on the world around us, and opportunities to not only think before we speak, but also to refresh our capacities to perceive things we might otherwise overlook.
Every day my autistic daughter shows me a fresh angle on nonverbal intelligence. My son has a form of muscular dystrophy that affects his speech but not the depth and breadth of his ideas. Some may stop listening because of slurred speech, but it is their loss. He is about to start a podcast and I think it is a brilliant idea. May open some ears and minds.
I read recently that there is a deeper simplicity at the core of all things complicated. We just have to find it. Looking for what connects us beyond our divisions seems like a good place to start.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 14, 2016, at 3:45 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
-=-One thing people can’t recover from is low verbal and logical skill, so it’s not nice, I keep thinking, to discuss very complicated things where nice people who can’t understand it are. They might start looking for moral failings in me as justification for taking all their friends and shunning me. :-)-=-
I had also thought (but not written) that it’s one of my failings to be snobby about verbal ability. In person, I have friends who aren’t great speakers but who know lots and are worth drawing out. In an all-in-writing forum it’s harder to appreciate other skills, where words are all we have.
And I had hoped my second post in this topic would be less awkward and more solid. I wanted to say that it’s good to have a checklists of one’s own prejudices in mind before rejecting ideas by someone.
My personal list includes: Texans, New York City, high heels…. there are some other things. But if someone in high heels with a NYC accent starts telling me what I should do, I have a hard time hearing a word of it. It’s just me. So I try to listen before I run away. I’ve learned a lot from various Texans, but only the best of it from the best of them, because I first go idea-deaf and only hear the accent.
Surely there are people who don’t like things about me. I listed things, in the London presentation. I said not to dig around for stuff not to like about me—I could make a list.
American
fat
female
only has a bachelor’s degree, in... as Marty my son said with a bit of comical derision: “Mom, you studied your native language.”
southwest / New Mexico
“just a mom”
I wasn’t always fat. I wasn’t always “just a mom.” But people see you where and when they see you, and you can only “earn points” in that context—how helpful were you? How useful, or amusing, or whatever they needed?
Sandra
sukaynalabboun@...
I think being aware of prejudices is helpful- and we make judgements and decisions based on preconceived ideas about things constantly. Holding these assumed truths up for examination or re-evaluation is crucial if learning and exploring are to happen. Otherwise, we cling to what we think we know- without ever testing it out or verifying which parts were good or true and which could be redefined. Example: As an Anthro student I had always planned to do field work in Africa and "knew" I was afraid of Muslims and Arabs. I decided to take a course on peoples and cultures of the ME to try and get over that hurdle- to challenge myself a bit to find some good where I was only seeing bad. I ended up converting and marrying one! Obviously, this is one of those times where most of my prejudices turned out to be completely wrong, unfounded and a handicap.Yes, we should adjust to accommodate people and their varying levels of understanding or abilities, I always thought that was being polite company. Sometimes in more rigorous or strident circles you can expect more, but I pretty much learned (with age?) not to expect so much of everyone. It is easier to not engage people who maybe aren't interested and are not really hurting anyone in their blissful state.I am really grateful to read here and glean so many new insights and ideas for how to approach life with my family and even friends in a much more peaceful, loving and accepting way. Sometimes that means being ok with them not living up to my expectations, sometimes ( as Deb said?) it means re evaluating my own thoughts, positions, etc.