Cellulite
Robin Flinchum
Would be grateful for any advice, both in terms of how to approach the subject with my son and also, if he wants to make a change, how to help someone who loves lots of fat and sugar to transition to a lighter way of eating--or will that make a difference? He is not even chubby, just bulking compared to the wiry, thin way he used to be. I was really surprised by the cellulite, have never seen that on a kid before. He does also get lots of healthy food, just really prefers the processed versions of things. I think the bulking will even out as he grows, although in the past year he's become much more sedentary while he is gaming and watching Youtube videos. He takes breaks and jumps on the trampoline a lot, which helps. It's the cellulite that concerns me.
Thanks for any advice, Robin
Beverley Cooke
Sent from my iPad
Jo Isaac
I don't believe that to be true. Cellulite is when stored fat pushes through collagen fibers, or connective tissue, under the skin to form 'dimples'. When a child grows, particularly from boy to man, and shoots up, develops more muscle, and produces more testosterone (which encourages building of muscle) I would imagine the cellulite could certainly lessen, if not go completely.
==The thing is, he really loves processed foods like chips and Lunchables and once a month I take him to McDonald's because he loves it so much. ==
You have no evidence his diet is causing cellulite. Cellulite is known to be strongly genetic..Perhaps his Dad, or Granddad had cellulite at some point? The genetic factor is likely to do with how strong, and the orientation under the skin, he connective tissue is..
I saw a study that said up to 10 - 20 % of boys and men have cellulite at some point. He's 10 - many boys bulk up as tweens, and then shoot up into bean poles as teens. My own son is also 10 and has bulked up a lot in the past year or so, also not chubby, but definitely chunkier than previously.
==Would be grateful for any advice, both in terms of how to approach the subject with my son==
I wouldn't mention it at all to your son. You already said he's not chubby. He's doing what most boys do as tweens - bulking up. If he's got cellulite, it's most likely temporary, and partly genetic, and more to do with the underlying structure of his fat cells and connective tissues than anything he is doing/eating/not doing. Even super skinny kids and adults get cellulite.
==Although in the past year he's become much more sedentary while he is gaming and watching Youtube videos. ==
Again - it's likely his age. Tweens, particularly boys, hunker down at home around that age - mine is doing the same.
==It's the cellulite that concerns me.==
Don't be concerned. Many kids develop cellulite. I would go read up on some (good, sound, scientific) articles on what cellulite actually is [😊]
Jo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rachel Kay
==The thing is, he really loves processed foods like chips and Lunchables and once a month I take him to McDonald's because he loves it so much. ==
I'm wondering why, if he loves it so much, is he only taken once a month? Is he given the impression that sort of food is bad or undesirable? Do you make a distinction at home between processed and other foods?
On 30 Aug 2016, at 11:53, "Jo Isaac joanneisaac@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:== I understand cellulite is not reversible and I don't want him to be self conscious about it.==
I don't believe that to be true. Cellulite is when stored fat pushes through collagen fibers, or connective tissue, under the skin to form 'dimples'. When a child grows, particularly from boy to man, and shoots up, develops more muscle, and produces more testosterone (which encourages building of muscle) I would imagine the cellulite could certainly lessen, if not go completely.
==The thing is, he really loves processed foods like chips and Lunchables and once a month I take him to McDonald's because he loves it so much. ==
You have no evidence his diet is causing cellulite. Cellulite is known to be strongly genetic..Perhaps his Dad, or Granddad had cellulite at some point? The genetic factor is likely to do with how strong, and the orientation under the skin, he connective tissue is..
I saw a study that said up to 10 - 20 % of boys and men have cellulite at some point. He's 10 - many boys bulk up as tweens, and then shoot up into bean poles as teens. My own son is also 10 and has bulked up a lot in the past year or so, also not chubby, but definitely chunkier than previously.
==Would be grateful for any advice, both in terms of how to approach the subject with my son==
I wouldn't mention it at all to your son. You already said he's not chubby. He's doing what most boys do as tweens - bulking up. If he's got cellulite, it's most likely temporary, and partly genetic, and more to do with the underlying structure of his fat cells and connective tissues than anything he is doing/eating/not doing. Even super skinny kids and adults get cellulite.
==Although in the past year he's become much more sedentary while he is gaming and watching Youtube videos. ==
Again - it's likely his age. Tweens, particularly boys, hunker down at home around that age - mine is doing the same.
==It's the cellulite that concerns me.==
Don't be concerned. Many kids develop cellulite. I would go read up on some (good, sound, scientific) articles on what cellulite actually is [😊]
Jo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Erin Waterbury
The best approach to the subject is none. IF he ever brings it up you can discuss it then, though I suggest being clear that any external approach is at best a guess (if not completely wrong) and his best guide is his own body if he listens to it.
On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:53 AM, Jo Isaac joanneisaac@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:== I understand cellulite is not reversible and I don't want him to be self conscious about it.==
I don't believe that to be true. Cellulite is when stored fat pushes through collagen fibers, or connective tissue, under the skin to form 'dimples'. When a child grows, particularly from boy to man, and shoots up, develops more muscle, and produces more testosterone (which encourages building of muscle) I would imagine the cellulite could certainly lessen, if not go completely.
==The thing is, he really loves processed foods like chips and Lunchables and once a month I take him to McDonald's because he loves it so much. ==
You have no evidence his diet is causing cellulite. Cellulite is known to be strongly genetic..Perhaps his Dad, or Granddad had cellulite at some point? The genetic factor is likely to do with how strong, and the orientation under the skin, he connective tissue is..
I saw a study that said up to 10 - 20 % of boys and men have cellulite at some point. He's 10 - many boys bulk up as tweens, and then shoot up into bean poles as teens. My own son is also 10 and has bulked up a lot in the past year or so, also not chubby, but definitely chunkier than previously.
==Would be grateful for any advice, both in terms of how to approach the subject with my son==
I wouldn't mention it at all to your son. You already said he's not chubby. He's doing what most boys do as tweens - bulking up. If he's got cellulite, it's most likely temporary, and partly genetic, and more to do with the underlying structure of his fat cells and connective tissues than anything he is doing/eating/not doing. Even super skinny kids and adults get cellulite.
==Although in the past year he's become much more sedentary while he is gaming and watching Youtube videos. ==
Again - it's likely his age. Tweens, particularly boys, hunker down at home around that age - mine is doing the same.
==It's the cellulite that concerns me.==
Don't be concerned. Many kids develop cellulite. I would go read up on some (good, sound, scientific) articles on what cellulite actually is [😊]
Jo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
rkflinchum@...
Lisa Celedon
Why would you not want a person to notice a thing about themselves? And, why would there be a need to push him to notice it before he does? There might be a reason to do either one of those things, but the 'why' really matters.
Would you not want him to notice the color of his eyes? The way the colors on his skin shift and change in different parts of his body? The way a smaller, more fragile person recoils in fear when he is angry with them? The way being gentle and kind to another person makes them light up, makes him light up?
We are all humans here on this earth learning about ourselves and each other.
If there is a nagging feeling of neglect, maybe it's better to consider whether or not there is some projection of internal neglect? Instead of assuming there is a problem in another person that needs to be fixed or addressed, maybe there is something inside that can be examined and explored and given attention. And then hold that up against the external source and see if you have more clarity about whether you are neglecting, rather than trying to control and change, another person.
`Lisa Celedon
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm wondering why, if he loves it so much, is he only taken once a month? Is he given the impression that sort of food is bad or undesirable? Do you make a distinction at home between processed and other foods?-=-
If a child loves something as simple as a kids’ meal at a drive-through, limiting that to once a month seems odd. Unschooling needs abundance.
http://sandradodd.com/abundance
Sandra
cheri.tilford@...
If a child loves something as simple as a kids’ meal at a drive-through, limiting that to once a month seems odd. Unschooling needs abundance. -=-
Sandra Dodd
Control isn’t abundance.
An abundance of control is oppression.
http://sandradodd.com/control
-=-There is a dinstinction between highly processed foods and other, notably whole, foods. -=-
There are MANY distinctions people make among foods, and most do more harm than good.
-=-... a host of disease processes, which we are seeing in alarming numbers in children in the US…-=-
Among unschooled kids with lots of choices? Let’s just talk about unschooling here, and not all kinds of other things.
-=- If one were starving, processed food could maintain some basic body functions, but a person would not regain vitality and full health - there are simply not enough nutrients, and the nutrients there are not balanced in the way the body needs them. -=-
I’ve never known an unschooling child to be starving. I have never heard of any family limiting a child to “processed food.” The term, as you probably know, is very broad and is used in this context as a villifier more than as a descriptor.
-=-If I were to make a scale of foods that support health and foods that degrade health, processed foods and meals from fast foods restaurants tip the scale towards foods that degrade health. Having the idea that it doesn't matter what you eat, regardless of the reasons for eating said food, is akin to saying it doesn't matter what I put in my car's gas tank: apple juice, coke, water, gasoline, diesel, dish soap; whatever I feel like feeding my car is fine, no worries. -=-
No, it is not the same as that.
Food, coke, water, can go into a human tank.
No one is recommending feeding a child gasoline, diesel or dish soap, so the example is facetious.
-=-Providing an abundance of fast food now could mean problems down the road. How does learning about good health habits fit here from an unschooling perspective? I don't mean dictating food choices as each person's body is different and one person's poison is another person's medicine, but the idea that processed foods have less nutrient density is not a controversial one. -=-
No one is force-feeding a child. It’s not about poison, and it’s not about medicine. It’s not about “nutrient density.” It’s about living openly in the world and in the culture in which one finds himself, preferably without fear or fright.
-=- I'm vehemently opposed to shaming people into any food choices, but providing basic information about the potential cause and effect seems like good practice. -=-
Your entire post seems intended to hint that some of us have NO IDEA of the vast knowledge you have—that we’re clueless.
-=-However, to say what a person eats doesn't affect their body composition seems irresponsible to me.
I don’t think anyone wrote that, and I’m pretty sure no one thought that except you.
To misrepresent this discussion, and to misrepresent food, shows more fear than calm.
Fear and strong emotion is worse for health than just about ANY food, but millions of people have become frightened of foods all around them.
-=-Am I missing something here?-=-
Yes. All of this:
http://sandradodd.com/food
http://sandradodd.com/eating/control
The collected unschooling stories of over twenty years, you’re disregarding, or haven’t read.
Mainstream fears are available all around us, but the experiences of unschoolers are harder to come by. I would really like to keep this group’s focus on what unschoolers have done and learned, known and experienced, rather than what mainstream food fears are. Those ebb and flow and change over the years. The knowledge of what happens when choices are offered calmly and happily is a more specialized and rare thing.
There was a great deal of negativity in your last paragraph. Do you think that your family members will NOT feel shamed by your statements?
-=-My family doesn't generally visit fast food restaurants unless we're traveling, and I bring my own snacks so I don't have to eat fast food. It makes me feel awful. Given the choice between fast food and no food I'll take no food, with the knowledge I can get better-for-me food later. That's me. My daughter and husband will get their burgers and fries and when my daughter used to ask why I wasn't getting anything I simply said it doesn't make me feel good. I'm vehemently opposed to shaming people into any food choices, but providing basic information about the potential cause and effect seems like good practice. I don't buy much in the way of processed foods, and we have fun experimenting in the kitchen making our own snacks and treats with foods *I* feel good about (knowing the science behind the damage to the gut biome caused by GMOs - which affect digestive function, immune health, and neurological functioning and therefore learning - I don't feel good about the vast majority of food products that come in a package). And what a sense of joy to create delicious treats that we enjoy to our hearts' content! My daughter's favorite part of baking is adding love, which makes it taste better. -=-
If you can bring yourself to read at the links above, you will not find people feeling awful, simply saying it doesn’t make them feel good, being vehemently opposed to things, or not feelings good.
-=-And what a sense of joy to create delicious treats that we enjoy to our hearts' content!-=- What if you (the mom) could change just a little, so that your family could enjoy ANYthing to their hearts’ content? What if your heart could be more content?
Do you think that if someone lets a child eat hamburgers that it’s ALL he will ever eat?
This is not the experience of those families that have relaxed control.
Do you consider hamburgers to be processed food products that come in packages?
In my lifetime, every part of a hamburger has been villified, and each has, in turn, been the best (or only good) part.
Parental fear adds fear and control, not peace and health.
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet
Sandra
Alex & Brian Polikowsky
.".........(knowing the science behind the damage to the gut biome caused by GMOs - which affect digestive function, immune health, and neurological functioning and therefore learning - I don't feel good about the vast majority of food products that come in a package). ....."
Sent from my iPhone
-=-What about nutrients in abundance, health in abundance?-=-
Control isn’t abundance.
An abundance of control is oppression.
http://sandradodd.com/control
-=-There is a dinstinction between highly processed foods and other, notably whole, foods. -=-
There are MANY distinctions people make among foods, and most do more harm than good.
-=-... a host of disease processes, which we are seeing in alarming numbers in children in the US…-=-
Among unschooled kids with lots of choices? Let’s just talk about unschooling here, and not all kinds of other things.
-=- If one were starving, processed food could maintain some basic body functions, but a person would not regain vitality and full health - there are simply not enough nutrients, and the nutrients there are not balanced in the way the body needs them. -=-
I’ve never known an unschooling child to be starving. I have never heard of any family limiting a child to “processed food.” The term, as you probably know, is very broad and is used in this context as a villifier more than as a descriptor.
-=-If I were to make a scale of foods that support health and foods that degrade health, processed foods and meals from fast foods restaurants tip the scale towards foods that degrade health. Having the idea that it doesn't matter what you eat, regardless of the reasons for eating said food, is akin to saying it doesn't matter what I put in my car's gas tank: apple juice, coke, water, gasoline, diesel, dish soap; whatever I feel like feeding my car is fine, no worries. -=-
No, it is not the same as that.
Food, coke, water, can go into a human tank.
No one is recommending feeding a child gasoline, diesel or dish soap, so the example is facetious.
-=-Providing an abundance of fast food now could mean problems down the road. How does learning about good health habits fit here from an unschooling perspective? I don't mean dictating food choices as each person's body is different and one person's poison is another person's medicine, but the idea that processed foods have less nutrient density is not a controversial one. -=-
No one is force-feeding a child. It’s not about poison, and it’s not about medicine. It’s not about “nutrient density.” It’s about living openly in the world and in the culture in which one finds himself, preferably without fear or fright.
-=- I'm vehemently opposed to shaming people into any food choices, but providing basic information about the potential cause and effect seems like good practice. -=-
Your entire post seems intended to hint that some of us have NO IDEA of the vast knowledge you have—that we’re clueless.
-=-However, to say what a person eats doesn't affect their body composition seems irresponsible to me.
I don’t think anyone wrote that, and I’m pretty sure no one thought that except you.
To misrepresent this discussion, and to misrepresent food, shows more fear than calm.
Fear and strong emotion is worse for health than just about ANY food, but millions of people have become frightened of foods all around them.
-=-Am I missing something here?-=-
Yes. All of this:
http://sandradodd.com/food
http://sandradodd.com/eating/control
The collected unschooling stories of over twenty years, you’re disregarding, or haven’t read.
Mainstream fears are available all around us, but the experiences of unschoolers are harder to come by. I would really like to keep this group’s focus on what unschoolers have done and learned, known and experienced, rather than what mainstream food fears are. Those ebb and flow and change over the years. The knowledge of what happens when choices are offered calmly and happily is a more specialized and rare thing.
There was a great deal of negativity in your last paragraph. Do you think that your family members will NOT feel shamed by your statements?
-=-My family doesn't generally visit fast food restaurants unless we're traveling, and I bring my own snacks so I don't have to eat fast food. It makes me feel awful. Given the choice between fast food and no food I'll take no food, with the knowledge I can get better-for-me food later. That's me. My daughter and husband will get their burgers and fries and when my daughter used to ask why I wasn't getting anything I simply said it doesn't make me feel good. I'm vehemently opposed to shaming people into any food choices, but providing basic information about the potential cause and effect seems like good practice. I don't buy much in the way of processed foods, and we have fun experimenting in the kitchen making our own snacks and treats with foods *I* feel good about (knowing the science behind the damage to the gut biome caused by GMOs - which affect digestive function, immune health, and neurological functioning and therefore learning - I don't feel good about the vast majority of food products that come in a package). And what a sense of joy to create delicious treats that we enjoy to our hearts' content! My daughter's favorite part of baking is adding love, which makes it taste better. -=-
If you can bring yourself to read at the links above, you will not find people feeling awful, simply saying it doesn’t make them feel good, being vehemently opposed to things, or not feelings good.
-=-And what a sense of joy to create delicious treats that we enjoy to our hearts' content!-=- What if you (the mom) could change just a little, so that your family could enjoy ANYthing to their hearts’ content? What if your heart could be more content?
Do you think that if someone lets a child eat hamburgers that it’s ALL he will ever eat?
This is not the experience of those families that have relaxed control.
Do you consider hamburgers to be processed food products that come in packages?
In my lifetime, every part of a hamburger has been villified, and each has, in turn, been the best (or only good) part.
Parental fear adds fear and control, not peace and health.
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet
Sandra
Cheri Tilford
The biggest thing is they don't feel guilty if they don't make the same choice I or anyone else decides is "right " or healthy. They eat what feels good when it feels good and put down a candy after a bite of it does not! -=-
yep, I see the same thing in my daughter. She has a monkey platter for almost every meal, she always goes grocery shopping with me and we try new stuff when she wants. We often eat all different foods together, and so it's normal in my family to not get the same food at the same place, and they've seen the unpleasant effects (and my desire to be near a toilet for hours afterward) of me eating things that disagree with my system. There's no shame, it's more of them feeling sorry for me that I'm not enjoying what they are!
I am concerned about the changes that have happened in the food supply, changes that I have seen directly affect my own ability to eat certain foods, things that surprised and confused me and spurred me onto research. While it's not fair of me to make some of the statements I made (sorry!) it's also not fair to say someone who sees things differently has bought into propaganda.
Sandra, thank you for the links. I'll be quiet now and catch up on my reading.
cheers,
cheri
semajrak@...
I never want that to happen with my son, at least from my end. I don't want him to worry about my opinion of him over ordinary choices that he should be entitled to make in peace. I don't want to miss out on learning the little details that make him him because I've been too focused on my own truth. That's important to me.
Lisa Celedon
Just because humans notice correlations does not make them true.
<<(causation is difficult to prove)>>
Precisely. I think in part because humans often use a lot of energy, taking pieces of a puzzle and running around shouting with them, showing them to everyone and making them huge, as if they are the entire picture. I think that is a natural impulse (I've certainly done that often enough), and says something about the current state of human development, and might be a trend that fades out at some point, maybe (I hope, I think it would be good if it did).
There is a high correlation between stress and all those things you mentioned, too.
The more processed a food, the less work is required of the body to extract and utilize the nutrients. The more efficiently the body can handle digestion and the more resources remain available to continue coping with environmental stressors. Those kinds of foods help support a body that is under stress, but they are not the cause of the stress.
Thinking a lot about some foods as whole and healthy and safe, and other foods as unhealthy and toxic and dangerous is a source of stress. Controlling and limiting and measuring and analyzing your diet is a stressful thing to do. Having your diet controlled and limited and measured and analyzed by someone else is stressful.
This might be sort of tangential, but it's been on my mind a lot lately, about the way people will jump on a "this is bad for you!" train and just ride it without another thought about where the train is actually going. I think the assumption is that the train must be headed for "health" or "long life" or "good life." And then when one trail is derailed by further scientific evidence or people's real experience in the world, many people hop eagerly aboard the next train.
Not many people stop to wonder why they keep jumping on trains to get to a place they can already be at, right here, right where they are.
A mother's attitude about food impacts her children's health (as much as? more than?) the food itself. If a mother is poisoning the atmosphere her children eat in with negativity and fear, it doesn't matter how "clean" and "whole" she tells them their food is. I don't think that is an original thought of mine, but I've been living unschooling principles for long enough now to know the truth of it with every ounce of my being.
For awhile when we were really tight financially and didn't have a car, I took my kids a lot to a Mcdonald's across the street to get a happy meal. We could split it and we collected the toys, which were decent quality and very cheap compared to the toys we couldn't readily afford from target and amazon. It was a fun diversion when there weren't a lot of options for places we could get to easily. My younger son still loves french fries from time to time, but my older son hardly ever wants Mcdonald's anymore. I can eat it every now and then, but even though I really do like it when I get it, I don't want it very often. I got plenty that summer, and learned what I needed to learn about how and when it can benefit me, or not. Not in my head, not from other people, but from my own gut.
My kids have been eating in peace, without the presence of negativity or fear or convoluted beliefs in their home about which foods are "good" "real" food, and which are not, for most of their young lives. They eat what they like, they leave what they don't, and they often choose things other kids might not ever touch (my older son frequently chooses cauliflower or green beans or boiled eggs over any of the other sweet or "processed" options he has available to him) without having been told by me that one choice is "healthier" or better than another.
My older son has talked recently about some of his food choices, telling me things like, "Mom, I need starburst. My brain is just really busy and it just really needs like, more good energy." (Sugar, "highly processed" simple sugars are the best fuel for the brain, the easiest to digest, the quickest and most efficiently utilized by the brain--far more efficient than fruit or protein or fats (though he often likes those other things too)-- he doesn't know that in words or in an idea, but that knowledge lives inside of him in whole way.
The other day he was trying to explain to me that he wanted to eat, but his stomach didn't want food, his brain didn't want his stomach to have food, because it was too busy for food, this confused him, and he was trying to understand it. His words brought to my mind that when the stomach is digesting, it diverts energy and blood flow from other parts of the body in order to do it. Maybe his brain was the thing that needed the resources in that moment. :) Sometimes I try to say a little about those things, but mostly he is still too young to like much of me talking. :) Maybe it'll interest him someday, or maybe it'll never need to be a thing that needs to interest him at all. Maybe it'll just be another bit of his own internal wisdom that doesn't ever need to be pulled out and examined and looked at in a detached way.
It's been really, *really* cool to hear my introspective little boy start putting some of what he notices about himself into words. I'm so grateful for the information and resources radical unschoolers like Sandra have made available, and discussed openly, tirelessly, at length, so that I have been able to protect so much of my children's natural integrity.
My son made a box cake last week, he likes boxed cakes because he isn't currently interested in the time and all the different steps of adding lots of ingredients for a from-scratch cake. Box cake is simple and quick and just exactly what he has time and interest and attention for. It's also really cheap, which is good for me, since he hardly ever eats much of the cakes we make, from-scratch or not! He enjoys the making more than the eating. :)
He ate half of one piece of that cake and then the whole thing sat there untouched for the rest of the week. My husband and I enjoy cake and cookies and sweets, but neither of us ended up eating any of it, either (though I ate almost two dozen coconut chocolate pecan cookies I made over that same week! No one else liked them, but for me--YUUUMMMM). Boxed cake isn't often really very good, if you're used to eating what really tastes good to you. But it can also be just the right thing sometimes! I remember feeling like it was a rare delicacy when I was a child! I remember when it was the best thing I'd ever tasted, fresh from the oven.
`Lisa Celedon
Sandra Dodd
-=-This might be sort of tangential, but it's been on my mind a lot lately, about the way people will jump on a "this is bad for you!" train and just ride it without another thought about where the train is actually going. I think the assumption is that the train must be headed for "health" or "long life" or "good life." And then when one trail is derailed by further scientific evidence or people's real experience in the world, many people hop eagerly aboard the next train.
Not many people stop to wonder why they keep jumping on trains to get to a place they can already be at, right here, right where they are.-=-
I don’t think it’s tangential. I think it’s central.
The same person who seemed so afraid about foods following her “research” wrote just six months ago about how relaxed and open her attitude was about food. So something she “researched” recently has brought unhappiness into her life.
-=- While it's not fair of me to make some of the statements I made (sorry!) it's also not fair to say someone who sees things differently has bought into propaganda. -=-
“Fair” isn’t the measure of what is useful to the many unschoolers reading here. Is it helpful to unschooling?
To attempt to trade an apology for a bye is not fair.
There IS propaganda about food. There is a flood of propaganda about food in the past several years. It is ruining lives. It is ruining families. It is ruining friendships. It is ruining health.
There ARE people buying into that propaganda—often very literally, by buying books, by buying pre-packaged food by mail to eat more like their pre-historic ancestors.
The fear of food that ruins lives is a cousin of anorexia, and bulemia. Sometimes it lives in the same body as one of those, but it’s called orthorexia.
Orthorexia nervosa. It is not a good element of healthy unschooling.
Sandra
sukaynalabboun@...
On Sep 11, 2016, at 4:58 AM, Lisa Celedon lisajceledon@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
--My son made a box cake last week, he likes boxed cakes because he isn't currently interested in the time and all the different steps of adding lots of ingredients for a from-scratch cake. Box cake is simple and quick and just exactly what he has time and interest and attention for. It's also really cheap, which is good for me, since he hardly ever eats much of the cakes we make, from-scratch or not! He enjoys the making more than the eating--
Sandra Dodd
This can be worded better. I wrote it, but I want to clarify:
-=-The fear of food that ruins lives …. -=-
Wait.
The life-ruining food fear, not “food that ruins lives.” Fear that ruins lives.
The life-ruining food fear is a cousin of anorexia, and bulemia. Sometimes it lives in the same body as one of those, but it’s called orthorexia.
Orthorexia nervosa. It is not a good element of healthy unschooling.
I feel better now.
Sandra
jsearthmom@...
=-And what a sense of joy to create delicious treats that we enjoy to our hearts' content!-=- What if you (the mom) could change just a little, so that your family could enjoy ANYthing to their hearts’ content? What if your heart could be more content?-=
I used to be like the poster who is certain some foods are excellent choices and some are VERY unhealthy. I used to attend anti-GMO protests and post informational articles so my friends would learn how to protect their families. The fact that I was sure we needed to protect ourselves is the image of fear. But I didn't see it that way.
I remember a day I refused to allow my child to eat grapes because they weren't organic and I was worried about the pesticides. I mention this because this is the extreme I went to. And it hindered unschooling. This fear prevented my kids from experiencing life joyfully or fully.
I was faced with a decision: I could choose loosen up about my fear and allow my kids to learn about food through their own experience; caring for them if something made a tummy ache and (very importantly) finding joy in my children's joy as they explored new things. Or I could admit I didn't really believe in radical unschooling, that my fears were more important than my children discovering for themselves what worked and what didn't in a natural way, and instead control their choices until I was no longer in a position to do so.
It wasn't an easy time for me. I wanted to bring the world to my children. That's why we decided to homeschool. I wanted to provide options and ideas and not impart constant control over my children- that's why I was attracted to unschooling. But unschooling is challenging to me. It means looking more closely at things I think I am sure of, especially when it involves my fear and my family's peace.
We didn't live more peacefully when I controlled what food came into the house. My oldest spent all her time at the snack tables any time we went to a gathering. And I spent that same time cringing at her choices. That was not a good time for us.
Now, my kids are 9 and (almost) 12 and we've been unschooling for 5-6 years. My oldest's favorite snacks right now are cherry tomatoes and Oreo Thins. She and her sister are very discerning about what they eat, based on what each one likes and what she knows about how it impacts her body. This understanding could only happen AFTER I let go of control and fear; after I let go of food labels based on my fears; after I chose peace and joy over shaming and self-righteousness. Eating is much more joyful now- all food is more joyfully tasted, more thoroughly enjoyed.
Looking back, it was one of the best choices I made.
Karen
Niki Rose
Sandra's post mentioning eating disorders reminded me of some recent news items. Here in Australia there was a news story recently noting the increase in eating disorders in young people. While the most affected group were aged 15-24 they were seeing an increase in males, under 12's, and highlighted the fact that even kids as young as six (although uncommon) were presenting with eating disorders. When going back to find the link I then found essentially the same news story written two years ago with the same researcher being interviewed (a local Doctor in charge of a regional eating disorder group) & the story back then was the youngest was 8 years old. Sadly this sort of headline wasn't unique to Aus & seems to be a trend in other countries as well.
I've linked the article at the bottom in case it's of interest but here's a quote:
"There is a lot of comments coming from primary school children about dieting and not eating too much fat and not gaining weight."
- Dr Melissa Hart
Primary school children here are aged 5-12.
There was also another news story this week where Doctors highlighted how the strong anti obesity messages in the media have contributed. We hear that in our media here a lot particularly about childhood obesity, diabetes etc & whilst these can have health implications too there is definitely a lot of fear out there about food as a result.
At the same time those stories were running it was reported some schools had banned selling chocolate as part of school fundraisers. (Chocolate boxes that kids sell to relatives etc outside of school).
http://www.theherald.com.au/story/4145588/kids-as-young-as-six-with-eating-disorders/
On 13 Sep 2016 11:15 AM, "jsearthmom@... [AlwaysLearning]" <AlwaysLearning@... m> wrote:There are lots of stories at the links Sandra provided. But I'm going to chime in anyway and share our story because this stood out to me:
=-And what a sense of joy to create delicious treats that we enjoy to our hearts' content!-=- What if you (the mom) could change just a little, so that your family could enjoy ANYthing to their hearts’ content? What if your heart could be more content?-=
I used to be like the poster who is certain some foods are excellent choices and some are VERY unhealthy. I used to attend anti-GMO protests and post informational articles so my friends would learn how to protect their families. The fact that I was sure we needed to protect ourselves is the image of fear. But I didn't see it that way.
I remember a day I refused to allow my child to eat grapes because they weren't organic and I was worried about the pesticides. I mention this because this is the extreme I went to. And it hindered unschooling. This fear prevented my kids from experiencing life joyfully or fully.
I was faced with a decision: I could choose loosen up about my fear and allow my kids to learn about food through their own experience; caring for them if something made a tummy ache and (very importantly) finding joy in my children's joy as they explored new things. Or I could admit I didn't really believe in radical unschooling, that my fears were more important than my children discovering for themselves what worked and what didn't in a natural way, and instead control their choices until I was no longer in a position to do so.
It wasn't an easy time for me. I wanted to bring the world to my children. That's why we decided to homeschool. I wanted to provide options and ideas and not impart constant control over my children- that's why I was attracted to unschooling. But unschooling is challenging to me. It means looking more closely at things I think I am sure of, especially when it involves my fear and my family's peace.
We didn't live more peacefully when I controlled what food came into the house. My oldest spent all her time at the snack tables any time we went to a gathering. And I spent that same time cringing at her choices. That was not a good time for us.
Now, my kids are 9 and (almost) 12 and we've been unschooling for 5-6 years. My oldest's favorite snacks right now are cherry tomatoes and Oreo Thins. She and her sister are very discerning about what they eat, based on what each one likes and what she knows about how it impacts her body. This understanding could only happen AFTER I let go of control and fear; after I let go of food labels based on my fears; after I chose peace and joy over shaming and self-righteousness. Eating is much more joyful now- all food is more joyfully tasted, more thoroughly enjoyed.
Looking back, it was one of the best choices I made.
Karen
Joyce Fetteroll
> On Sep 10, 2016, at 11:28 AM, Cheri Tilford cheri.tilford@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:And what if someone had made you change your diet according to what *they* believed was damaging to health? What if someone stopped you from eating cows milk or rice or gluten or meat based on their “research” of what foods were bad?
>
> I am concerned about the changes that have happened in the food supply,
> changes that I have seen directly affect my own ability to eat certain foods,
> things that surprised and confused me and spurred me onto research.
You got to decide what’s valuable to you. You got to decide how much you’d give up for what you felt you were gaining.
You’re robbing your children of the opportunity to decide what’s important to them. You’re taking away their ability to decide what is a benefit to them and what is worth giving up for it. You’re deciding for them.
If no one were eating fast food, it would be easy to convince them it’s poison. Children don’t need a lot of convincing that Drano is poison (once they understand poison.) No other kids are drinking Drano for fun and continuing on with their happy lives.
The same is not true of McDonalds. People are happily eating McDonalds. It tastes good, especially to kids because it has lots of the calories their bodies burn up quickly in small packages that match the small size of their stomachs.
As they get older, kids *will* change their tastes. They’ll also become more conscious of bigger ideas and which ideas are most important to them. Like the planet, money, pesticides, cooking, eating a certain way and so on. They may pick up and drop several ideas throughout childhood.
If your goal is learning, then your children feeling free to explore different ideas will be important to you. If you goal is protection, then that will get in the way of trying ideas out.
> it's also not fair to say someone who sees things differentlyNo, but it’s pretty common that when someone has “done the research” it means they’ve read articles that confirm what they’re growing to believe. It’s called cherry picking. And confirmation bias. The writers of all those articles do it too. I hope not deliberately! But once you start looking for confirmation of what you fear is true, you’ll see it everywhere. The reports that refute the fear will seem like noise and anomalies. What happens is that all the articles that agree with your fear come to feel right. All the articles that disagree come to feel wrong. It doesn’t help that the anti-chemistry side paints anyone who disagrees with them as the enemy and in the pockets of big business. It effectively creates a protective bubble around what they write. It gets labeled The Truth. Then even objective writers get labeled, The Liars.
> has bought into propaganda.
When all the issues are looked at without the fear colored glasses, it’s clear — especially to unschoolers — that if there are any dangers to our foods, they take a very very long time and a very off balance diet to have an effect. In other words, kids have time. Keeping kids away from “processed” foods is not an emergency. Kids have time to find the foods they like by trying. They can turn over information to decide what sounds right for them.
Or they can unless a parent *tells* them this chemical is bad and this food is bad.
Joyce
lisajceledon@...
Looking back, it was one of the best choices I made. >>
Reading this kind of stuff literally brings me to tears.
It's so .... I don't even know, moving, profound, hope-giving, powerful, to read accounts of people who have gone through these sorts of shifts and improved life for themselves and their children.
It's just, huge.
I never get tired of or less moved by them, no matter how many times I read stories like this.
In fact, I seem to be growing *more* moved, more deeply touched, the more I experience and move into further understanding of all of this.
I like reading stories like this one. :)
Lisa Celedon
(Who was not at all offended or bothered by my name being spelled wrong. Looked like a typo and a rather unimportant one. But thank you for noticing and fixing it).
Belinda D
My sister is a nurse specialising in treatment of obesity and diabetes. The government approach is all about education, education, education, and she spends her professional life educating people with real, compromising and sometimes life threatening health issues which could be significantly helped if they drastically changed their diet. However, despite lots and lots of help and all the right information, most of her patients don’t change long term. I’m so interested in why this is. It seems a simple fix to an outsider - change your diet and save your life!!! But it just doesn’t work like that.
I am starting to see how complicated our relationship with food is, and how external sources of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ and being told what to do and eat by well-meaning parents, educators and professionals is pretty unlikely to have the ‘desired' effect. It seems food is tied up with a much more emotional part of our selves and that is why it seems important to me that food is treated with a light touch, with fun, humour, and delight where possible. All of it, all kinds of food. The aforementioned sister was anorexic in her teens and bulemic in her 20’s. She thankfully, at 40, is pretty sure that she is fully recovered and never wants her child or my children to know, but as a consequence we as a family have instinctively never talked about diets or judged food verbally as we are so aware where that can go, even before we knew about unschooling.
Still more interestingly, her anorexia seems not to have been triggered by food messages - our family was pretty relaxed about food - but by other things in her life that were not going well.
I’m still not clear about how my kids will negotiate that field in their lives. What their relationship with food will be like. I can’t ‘make it right’ for them, I don’t know what the right thing to do or say or be is. All I know is that I want to quietly choose joy, and bring choices, wherever the opportunity presents itself. Do as little harm as possible. Light touch. No big deal :-)
Belinda
Sandra Dodd
Years ago, before we had children, Keith and I went to Weight Watchers. He had been heavy since he was born. I was up to 160 from my usual 130.
I went for months. Keith went once and wouldn’t go back. He said the feeling of having an older woman tell him what to eat was too much. His mom talked him talked him talked him his whole life.
Though he has lost weight as an adult, he’s diabetic the last few years and they assigned him “an educator,” who has called him at home a few times. So now it’s a female with a foreign accent who accosts him in his own home when he’s minding his own business. This is not pleasant for him at all.
Over 30 years, I gained weight, Keith lost weight. When I go to a new doctor for a checkup or if I’m in somewhere where they don’t have a chart on me already, they seem disappointed (irritated) that my blood pressure is low and I’m not diabetic. They would like to shame me. They want to show me that I’m dying, but I’m not.
Putting these kinds of pressure on young children under ANY circumstances can cause lifelong harm.
Adding those kinds of pressures to unschooling can ruin unschooling (and cause lifelong harm).
And the pressures aren’t always true, either. The claims of “if you want to live” sound like that person has the power of life or death, and that you’re an idiot.
That might possibly, Belinda, be part of why some people don’t want to change their diet when it seems that it’s to create success for “an educator.”
-=-despite lots and lots of help and all the right information-=-
“The right information” has changed many times just in my lifetime.
And “lots and lots of help” is only helpful if the learner IS being helped.
That model of lots of help and right information is just like school. And school says “if you don’t want to grow up stupid, not reading, jobless, you MUST do everything we’re saying.”
There is antagonism and some dishonesty (sometimes) and bad information (that’s not yet known to be bad, because people discover more and other information, always).
-=- I don’t know what the right thing to do or say or be is. All I know is that I want to quietly choose joy, and bring choices, wherever the opportunity presents itself. Do as little harm as possible. Light touch. No big deal :-)-=-
Light touch IS a big deal, because some people believe they’re being subtle about their judgments when the others around them take their clues as loud communications and blatant put-downs. Some people can read other people very well, and a certain sort of intake of breath, or posture, or eye movement can show disgust and rejection. So pretending not to care isn’t the same as learning to accept. :-)
But “Do as little harm as possible” is as good a goal as I can think of with all of this topic.
The larger topic is still unschooling and how things affect the learning and relationships that make unschooling rich and good.
Sandra
Sarah Thompson
Sandra Dodd
Yes. Trust grows when someone is trustworthy.
If a child is too young to know whether the parent is worthy of trust, then what?
This goes onto my list of things to add to my advanced unschooling ideas for Sunday. I was already going to talk about trust, but this is important.
I have used an analogy in the past about there being a turd in the lemonade. If there is lemonate that is clean, then it’s lemonade (either American lemonade which is thick and tart, or UK lemonade which is carbonated and light, like 7-Up without lime). If there is a turn in there, then what? Does it matter how big the turd is or who or what it came out of?
[Yes, yes… there can be imperceptible fly turds. Gnat turds. No one would call those turds–they’re called “specks.”
Yes, yes about any other “yeah but” responses to picturing a turd in lemonade.]
When someone lies sometimes, but not always, but sometimes she will state something as fact when it is not fact, then that is a turd in the lemonade. How much of the rest of what she says will you “take to the bank”?
And if you know that someone lies 5% of the time, or 15%, and you’re not sure about the current statement, you will most likely NOT give it 85% or 95% credence.
So back to the mom and scare tactics or exaggerations or threats. If the child has built up years and years of faith and trust in the mom and discovers she was dishonest about something, there is a turd in a LOT of years’ worth of lemonade then. How much of the faith in the mom will spill out if the child angrily dismisses her opinion and goes against it?
If a mom lies to keep a child from eating a cupcake, will the child later ask her advice about budding romance? sexual relationships? buying a car or a house?
How many cupcakes woud that mom be willing to share with that child later, if it would restore that trust?
Sandra
Sarah Thompson
Nicole Rod
Along these lines: We recently visited family out of state, and while there, a discussion about a boy I dated, and brought home to my father's wedding, occurred. We all laughed about that particular pairing, and how mismatched we were. The boy was not particularly well-liked by my family. He wasn't a bad guy, but he was not a good fit for me. None of my family said anything to me about it at the time, because I was firmly entrenched in my own bull-headedness and was not receptive to others' opinions, back then.
Last night, my husband and I revisited that conversation. I said to him, "let's be the kind of parents whose kids value our opinions." Our kids are only 8 and 5, so all of the big things are still ahead of us. Thinking back on that brought my attention to the idea that we could do things differently, and that teenage/young adult rebellion doesn't have to happen.
On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 6:11 AM, Sarah Thompson thompsonisland@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:Another one from the mom-files: what do you get when you add a tablespoon of wine to a barrel of sewage? Sewage. What do you get when you add a tablespoon of sewage to a barrel of wine? Sewage.
S--Nicole
303-519-7725
Kathryn Robles
My husband and his sister were both diagnosed diabetic in their twenties. (Both of their parents are diabetic.) It's only been after seeing a counselor (for other reasons) that my husband has been able to make any adjustments to his diet. There was just so much yucky emotional stuff all wrapped up together for him that it was paralyzing.
I've had a lot of people be surprised or critical when they find out that my children are "allowed" to have fruit loops or candy or whatever because of that family history. But while I can't change whatever genetics they currently have, I can try to not damage them emotionally now so that if there is a time in their life where they might find benefits to changing their diet they will be able to decide to do so without having a ton of baggage on top.
I'd rather be happy and joyful while sharing food that we love together than scared and controlling all the time about things that may not even happen someday.
-Kathryn
On Sep 14, 2016 1:05 AM, "Belinda D belinda.dutch@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:I think most of us have internal ideas about what is ‘healthy’ and what is not. I believe that some foods ARE better for our health than others. I’m not sure this is really empirically disputable. However, what is interesting is that externally imparted knowledge and education seem to have such little bearing on what we actually choose to eat in our own lives.
My sister is a nurse specialising in treatment of obesity and diabetes. The government approach is all about education, education, education, and she spends her professional life educating people with real, compromising and sometimes life threatening health issues which could be significantly helped if they drastically changed their diet. However, despite lots and lots of help and all the right information, most of her patients don’t change long term. I’m so interested in why this is. It seems a simple fix to an outsider - change your diet and save your life!!! But it just doesn’t work like that.
I am starting to see how complicated our relationship with food is, and how external sources of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ and being told what to do and eat by well-meaning parents, educators and professionals is pretty unlikely to have the ‘desired' effect. It seems food is tied up with a much more emotional part of our selves and that is why it seems important to me that food is treated with a light touch, with fun, humour, and delight where possible. All of it, all kinds of food. The aforementioned sister was anorexic in her teens and bulemic in her 20’s. She thankfully, at 40, is pretty sure that she is fully recovered and never wants her child or my children to know, but as a consequence we as a family have instinctively never talked about diets or judged food verbally as we are so aware where that can go, even before we knew about unschooling.
Still more interestingly, her anorexia seems not to have been triggered by food messages - our family was pretty relaxed about food - but by other things in her life that were not going well.
I’m still not clear about how my kids will negotiate that field in their lives. What their relationship with food will be like. I can’t ‘make it right’ for them, I don’t know what the right thing to do or say or be is. All I know is that I want to quietly choose joy, and bring choices, wherever the opportunity presents itself. Do as little harm as possible. Light touch. No big deal :-)
Belinda
Lisa Celedon
It seems prudent to pull this out and say something about "learning" and "protection" not needing to be different, contradictory goals. I know Joyce didn't mean it that way. But I also know a lot of people read something like that and think things about unschoolers being negligent or careless about protecting their children. And I know other people read things like that and misunderstand the value of protection for learning.
My primary goal for my children is learning. In order for them to learn in a way that will help them thrive, they also need to be protected. But, paradoxically, they can't be so protected that they don't learn in a way that will help them truly thrive.
I'm sorry I don't have something more to say, I do, but I don't have a lot of time today to write it out very attentively. It did seem worth taking a moment to pull this out, though.
`Lisa Celedon