Advanced topics
Sandra Dodd
My own ideas might not cover as much as should be covered, so I’m hoping some of you will share what you were exploring or discovering when you went three or four levels into unschooling (if there are levels, in whatever model you picture it—an onion with layers, a game with levels, hills to cross with more hills beyond).
Perhaps at that point people aren’t asking questions so much, but are finding depth in the way they answer newer unschoolers’ questions. I will look through the pages on growth and “getting it” to see if there are things not already in my notes, but I’m sure a few things could be added by some of you here! Help me, please! :-)
The standard beginners’ questions are already listed here:
http://sandradodd.com/faq.html
That’s what I do NOT plan to talk about.
Any stories or memories of things that helped you, but that were not at all on the horizon when you were a new unschooler?
Thanks,
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-Any stories or memories of things that helped you, but that were not at all on the horizon when you were a new unschooler?-=-
Seriously. Please!
New unschoolers are scared and looking for academics, or maybe over-confident and it seems simple.
Ater beginning days subside, what do peopl need to know next? Those of you who have been doing it a while—what helped you move to long-term confidence?
Sandra
Sam
Sent from my iPhone
On 19 Aug 2016, at 07:58, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
I don’t want to be the only response to the topic!
-=-Any stories or memories of things that helped you, but that were not at all on the horizon when you were a new unschooler?-=-
Seriously. Please!
New unschoolers are scared and looking for academics, or maybe over-confident and it seems simple.
Ater beginning days subside, what do peopl need to know next? Those of you who have been doing it a while—what helped you move to long-term confidence?
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
Perfectly matches something in my notes. THANKS!
On of the newer pages on my site is about the phrase “your own certain knowledge.”
http://sandradodd.com/knowledge
Pretty powerful, really seeing it work!
Sandra
Jo Isaac
I've been trying and trying to put it into words, but it's hard to sum up!
Similar to Sam, seeing the 'proof' in my own child - who learnt to read without being taught, learnt to tell time, is kind, amazingly considerate and the peace maker of his friends...that all came with time. Also having a friend on the same page, yes - even
just one, locally, was SO helpful, along with many online friends.
Keeping reading, watching, learning, thinking.
I think, what happened early on, was I was following a 'prescription', like a recipe. I had faith if I followed the recipe, things would turn out how I hoped. How others told me it worked. But it was kind of like blind faith - following a recipe for a cake
i'd never made before and really hoping that recipe was right.
Later, I was able to put the recipe and the 'instructions' to the back of my mind, and individualize my cake..as i'd learnt enough to perfect my cake with our own tweaks and adjustments. Terrible analogy, sorry! I'm tired and just drove from the airport - Brett's
been fly casting again!
I'll keep thinking though - I'm sure there is more (and less cheesy analogies!)
Jo
-=-Any stories or memories of things that helped you, but that were not at all on the horizon when you were a new unschooler?-=-
Seriously. Please!
New unschoolers are scared and looking for academics, or maybe over-confident and it seems simple.
Ater beginning days subside, what do peopl need to know next? Those of you who have been doing it a while—what helped you move to long-term confidence?
Sandra
Tress Miles
On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 5:00 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:A month from today, I’m speaking most of a day on topics not for beginners. :-) I’m thinking of it as advanced topics, though some there have young children.
My own ideas might not cover as much as should be covered, so I’m hoping some of you will share what you were exploring or discovering when you went three or four levels into unschooling (if there are levels, in whatever model you picture it—an onion with layers, a game with levels, hills to cross with more hills beyond).
Perhaps at that point people aren’t asking questions so much, but are finding depth in the way they answer newer unschoolers’ questions. I will look through the pages on growth and “getting it” to see if there are things not already in my notes, but I’m sure a few things could be added by some of you here! Help me, please! :-)
The standard beginners’ questions are already listed here:
http://sandradodd.com/faq.html
That’s what I do NOT plan to talk about.
Any stories or memories of things that helped you, but that were not at all on the horizon when you were a new unschooler?
Thanks,
Sandra
Liz Struk
Cass Kotrba
Seeing and feeling the changes that started to occur within my family and myself. Areas in which we felt tight started to loosen. Resentments and conflicts- internal and external- started to fade. Curiosity flourished. Smiles became abundant. I could see that the kid's eyes sparkled with joy, ideas and connections. I noticed the curiosity and connections at first in little ways and have had, and continue to have, the privilege of watching it bloom.
When we started unschooling I committed in my mind to 6 months. At our one year anniversary I remember thinking "if things are this much better now, I wonder how much better they will be by next year!" And it was. September 4th is our 4th anniversary! We all continue to grow and flourish in our own ways. I know for myself, knots that I've carried inside of me for a long time have continued to loosen and drop away as I continue to swim deeper into understanding. I wonder how amazing this next year will be!
-Cass
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 19, 2016, at 12:58 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> what helped you move to long-term confidence?
semajrak@...
I think for me I began noticing the changes in my own thinking and attitude.
sukaynalabboun@...
Seeing my older kids in comparison to their peers was really undeniable proof of the benefit of radical unschooling- they are so much calmer, knowledgeable, gracious, pleasant and considerate of others. They have the time and the space to be themselves, they have a calm knowing I never had that young. At first I trusted old- timers on what they said, but also, I could see the children I remembered before school returning and that made me more determined to work harder at this. Now we just are. We flow. We work through things and thrive.
I do think that spending time and energy with your kids is a priceless component here, though. Real relationships and conversations, real commitment to their interests and needs cannot be skipped or passed over and yield the same results. No shortcuts there. That's my incoherent response after a day swimming.
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> I don’t want to be the only response to the topic!
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> -=-Any stories or memories of things that helped you, but that were not at all on the horizon when you were a new unschooler?-=-
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> Seriously. Please!
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> New unschoolers are scared and looking for academics, or maybe over-confident and it seems simple.
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> Ater beginning days subside, what do peopl need to know next? Those of you who have been doing it a while—what helped you move to long-term confidence?
>
>
> Sandra
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
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> Yahoo Groups Links
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Jo Isaac
=-Any stories or memories of things that helped you, but that were not at all on the horizon when you were a new unschooler?-=-
In terms of radical unschooling principles - aside from just watching things develop in our own home, writing and answering other peoples questions on things like food, gaming and TV, etc, has helped me clear up my own thinking a great deal. That is something that wasn't on the horizon when I was a new unschooler - I was in no position to be answering other peoples questions back then.
Jo
Sent: 19 August 2016 07:58
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Advanced topics
I don’t want to be the only response to the topic!
-=-Any stories or memories of things that helped you, but that were not at all on the horizon when you were a new unschooler?-=-
Seriously. Please!
New unschoolers are scared and looking for academics, or maybe over-confident and it seems simple.
Ater beginning days subside, what do peopl need to know next? Those of you who have been doing it a while—what helped you move to long-term confidence?
Sandra
Nicole Rod
<<New unschoolers are scared and looking for academics, or maybe over-confident and it seems simple.
After beginning days subside, what do people need to know next? Those of you who have been doing it a while—what helped you move to long-term confidence?>>
I don't LOOK for academics anymore, I just SEE the learning, the joy, the fun.
This week my 8 year old and I were at the store (getting snacks for seeing The BFG - more on that in a moment). An older gentleman in line behind us asked her if she's ready to go back to school. When she said she doesn't go to school, and I explained that we homeschool, he asked about testing. I began explaining the laws in our state, and he said, "but what about YOU? Do you test so you know she's learning?" I smiled and said, "I'm with her all the time! I don't need to test her to know she's learning, I just talk with her!"
Regarding The BFG, driving home my daughter initiated a film vs book comparison of the story - no book report required!
Jo Isaac
==New unschoolers are scared and looking for academics=
= or maybe over-confident and it seems simple==
I went through my blog, with this question in mind. And that is exactly what I found. I'll just cut and paste what i'd written - it was in a post where I was reflecting how far we'd come, from when I first started the blog.
'I found a post from almost 3 years ago – January 2011. In it, I wrote this: ‘Maybe people tend to over think unschooling because in fact its underlying premise is so simple. Just be. Live in the moment. Live life.’
NO. NO. NO!! Now, I completely disagree with my own statement! Unschooling is NOT ‘just’ living life. Unschooling is far from simple. Unschooling requires constant thinking and re-thinking as you and your children grow.
Calling unschooling ‘just living life’ is a complete insult to good unschoolers! Unschooling takes patience, effort, and time as you continue to work on your own deschooling, facilitating your childs interests and family harmony and joy….Unschooling isn’t ‘just’ anything. It’s a thing – only unschooling is unschooling. It’s hard work!'
Sam
maya9@...
What I’m saying is that my kids have turned out to be super independent, clear-headed people who respect logic and critical thinking but have no time for top-down rules or emotional demands. If I want them to do something, they will listen to my reasons, evaluate them against their own concerns, and often make a counter offer. It’s reasonable and friendly, but they are completely used to being taken seriously at this point and to not having their time wasted. Were I to announce, “Now we will do this because I say so.” …well, I’m just going to get an eye-roll and a joke unless it’s an obvious emergency. (Daughter, reading this, just said, “Well, if you felt really strongly about something, there’s probably a good reason. I’d go along with that!” WHEW.)
It goes both ways, too, which is nice. They offer me bulletpoint lists of convincing reasons when they want something I'm not sure about. But if you want to be the Big Voice of Authority, and have less discussion, I think beating one’s kids and time-outs might work better. Unschooling, in my experience, creates people who are good at seeing through bullshit and who don’t put up with bullying. (Huh, never noticed both of those are bull-based words. Poor bulls, they have bad PR.)
For example, my then-12 year old girl wanted to go hang out with some new and old friends and I was a little uncomfortable. I wanted to say No. I had to think about why. Three things: one of the kids was new to homeschooling and had that adversarial-to-adults rebellion thing going on and I didn’t trust her to make good decisions. Plus these friends were older (13-15 years old). And finally I wanted to know what my girl (who looked older than she was) would do if she felt uncomfortable or got hit on or got ditched, because none of those sorts of things had ever come up before for her. When she heard my concerns she nodded, agreeing about the angry-ish kid, and we talked about strategies, with the clear intent between us at that point that we were trying to put me at ease so that hopefully I could say yes…unless it became apparent that it really wasn’t a good idea for her to go. Turns out she *had* thought of some of my concerns already (which helped me feel better), and *hadn’t* thought of others (which helped her trust my perspective a bit). I also copped to some irrational fears (my baby is growing up! Plus generalized ideas about what age is okay for what behavior, vs looking at This Person here in front of me, and what she, specifically, was capable of) that I had to let go of. After twenty minutes of chatting, we had it pretty well worked out. We also gave her my phone (and later got her her own phone). It ended with us both respecting the other one a little more, I think. Win win.
My point is, she wasn’t going to just accept a No without explanation. And if my reasons had been silly or unfounded—and if I hadn’t listened to her competence—we would have ended up in a worse place. It occurs to me now, typing this, that the part of her that won’t accept demands from me is the same strong-willed, self-assuredness in her that won’t accept crap from anyone, which is a big part of why I was able to feel good about her going out with those friends.
Advanced topic: top-down parenting is not an option in our house any more. At this age, these guys are beyond that. (Daughter, reading this, laughed, and I harumphed and said, “The beatings will now begin!” and she said, “You’ve had me in martial arts since I was five. Trying to beat me now would be a mistake.” HA! She is so right.) In case this sounds like my kids run all over me, they don’t. We just solve situations together. I think they respect me for being smart (sometimes? I hope?) and for having good ideas that are useful or interesting to their lives, not because I’m older or The Mom. And I get feedback from other adults that they are polite, well-mannered, a pleasure to have over. I quite agree!
SO what helped me with this...this wanton defiance of my rightful place of power :) was seeing them become people I respect, people that think for themselves, that question everything. Who still do things just because I ask sometimes, just to be nice to me. In other words, I'm getting what I wanted! Strong-willed smarties! Who don't obey, dammit! :)
As they get older, if you're doing unschooling right, you will not be able to tell them what to do. That method just won’t work. This can be terrifying to some parents, I think. Everything you say will be fundamentally optional to to your unschooled kids. But it’s okay because partnership works better than obedience anyway.
Maya
(sorry this turned out so long!!)
Niki Rose
I've come at this from a slightly different angle but I hope it's not perceived as too negative. The replies so far have been very joyful which is as you would expect from seasoned unschoolers.
Whenever I've felt shaky along the way it usually had to do with my ideals or expectations being out of kilter with the everyday realities of unschooling. I've come up with a few ideals vs reality examples (well what has been my reality anyway) that could be helpful for people not at the very start but not quite there yet in terms of everything flowing as best as it could.
Ideals vs reality
Ideal: We will unschool with a supportive unschooling community.
Reality: Whilst there is fantastic support online thanks to people like Sandra, Joyce & Pam you might be it in terms of local unschoolers at least initially. Don't let that put you off as it takes time to build community & facebook is a great way to seek out like minded families. Also be open to the fact that you won't be living in an unschooling bubble. Just as your friends aren't necessarily all unschoolers it's possible that your kids will make friends with school kids, home-ed kids, online friends who may live far away, kids from sports, so not all unschoolers basically. Seek out social connections as needed but don't fret that they need a huge amount of "friends" like school kids as a couple might do.
Ideal: We will do lots of cool and interesting things together
Reality: Your idea of cool & interesting may be entirely different from that of your children. Keep exposing them to new & interesting stuff but if your child would prefer to watch anime & game online rather than take a walk in nature for eg then go from those interests & see where that takes you rather than being frustrated trying to lure them towards something else that you think is more interesting or better for them. It's finding that balance between strewing new possible interests/activities & supporting the things they already love & having downtime too, just being & resting.
Ideal: As a family we will have freedom to go out & explore together.
Reality: If you have more than one child they won't always want to go to the same places or do the same activities. You might have one child who vetoes lots of your ideas or likes to stay home a lot & others that prefer being out. You might spontaneously decide that the weather is perfect to explore rockpools but the kids would prefer to skype their friends or one wants to go & the other doesn't. You need to find creative ways to balance everyone's needs. It's tricky & can be deflating sometimes when you think something would be new & fun for everyone but it really just highlights the individual differences between your kids. They are all unique & it's important to respect that. Being out all the time doesn't necessarily equate to more learning. Sandra wrote about balancing new & comfortable.
Ideal: As a close unschooling family where the kids aren't separated because of school, the kids will all enjoy being together.
Reality: This is a reasonable ideal because I would guess that most siblings in unschooled families would for the most part get on but certainly not all of the time. They will still argue, annoy each other, fued over stuff etc but that's normal family life. As an unschooling parent though you are likely to know the triggers, & intervene before things get crazy. It's up to you to set up spaces & resources that allow siblings to play/create/watch/rest/be noisy/have quiet time etc more harmoniously. It's not always easy balancing the needs of more than a couple of kids (& i think this could be a topic itself) but the upside of all your effort (aside from creating peace) is when you see something like a child singing for the baby, or your older child steps in with a fun toy when your 3 year old is throwing a tantrum. Little things like that help you to see the life learning that happens every day from a family of all ages being together.
------
Hope this hasn't missed the mark entirely. :-)
Niki
On 20 Aug 2016 10:02 AM, "Jo Isaac joanneisaac@... [AlwaysLearning]" <AlwaysLearning@yahoogroups. com> wrote:
=-Any stories or memories of things that helped you, but that were not at all on the horizon when you were a new unschooler?-=-
Being friends with people with slightly older children, especially in real life. I watch a couple of friends kids - two years older than mine- learn to read naturally. It was incredibly calming to see their process. Reading about other children learning to read was great, but actually seeing it with my own eyes made a great deal of difference to helping me chill out. I know that isn't possible for everyone though.
In terms of radical unschooling principles - aside from just watching things develop in our own home, writing and answering other peoples questions on things like food, gaming and TV, etc, has helped me clear up my own thinking a great deal. That is something that wasn't on the horizon when I was a new unschooler - I was in no position to be answering other peoples questions back then.
Jo
From: [email protected] <AlwaysLearning@yahoogroups. com> on behalf of Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <AlwaysLearning@yahoogroups. com>
Sent: 19 August 2016 07:58
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Advanced topicsI don’t want to be the only response to the topic!
-=-Any stories or memories of things that helped you, but that were not at all on the horizon when you were a new unschooler?-=-
Seriously. Please!
New unschoolers are scared and looking for academics, or maybe over-confident and it seems simple.
Ater beginning days subside, what do peopl need to know next? Those of you who have been doing it a while—what helped you move to long-term confidence?
Sandra
brmino@...
Sandra Dodd
When I first brought “Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch” here, Pam Sorooshian added “Repeat.”
“Constantly reassess” should probably be carved on one of the entryways to unschooling, Or to several of the internal passageways. :-)
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
Jo Isaac wrote:
-=-I think realizing that you need to constantly reassess helped me move forward, and not get stuck. It was part of advancing and 'levelling up’-=-
I wrote:
When I first brought “Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch” here, Pam Sorooshian added “Repeat.”
Probably those are both worth repeating. :-)
Sandra
Chrissy Gardiner
When I want to learn something new, my first instinct is to take a class or get a stack of books on the subject. From a very early age, this is what the kids would get from me if they showed any interest in learning something new. It took me longer than I'd like to admit, but it eventually dawned on me how counterproductive this was with these particular kids. Once I eased up (and we let go of technology restrictions), they gravitated towards the learning methods that work best for them. They play tons of games and watch hours of YouTube videos. They prefer to use apps to learn things like music and languages as opposed to in-person classes.
Even as I relaxed into helping them learn how they wanted, I still felt they needed more "real life" experiences to become well-rounded individuals. I generally needed to plan something super-sparkly-spectacular to even get them out of the house, and then they'd be unimpressed with whatever we were doing and clamoring to go home. For example, I got tickets to take Owen (11) to an air show. He is obsessed with planes and has amassed an impressive amount of knowledge of them. He was excited to go, but it took a little coaxing to get him out of the house (he doesn't do well with crowds and was worried about it being too crowded). We got there, found our seats right next to the runway, and watched a Raptor VTOL helicopter do its thing. I expected him to be enthralled to see this *right here* in front of him, in real life! I sure was. But after about 20 minutes, he was asking to go home.
I was a little disappointed because I wanted to watch the rest of the show, but I knew he wouldn't last four more hours. As we were walking to the car, I mentioned my surprise that he didn't seem very interested in seeing all those planes do their thing up close. He replied that he could see all these planes and more on YouTube, and those videos let you see the controls, the pilot's view and a bunch of other stuff beyond what the plane looks like from the ground. And he can go into WarThunder or GTA V and fly those planes himself. I almost smacked my forehead with my palm b/c this was such an a-ha moment. I would much prefer seeing things in person rather than on a video, but for Owen, the learning and fun he could pull from his computer was so much richer, he didn't want to waste time sitting in the hot sun on a hard plastic chair at the air show. He wanted to go home and fly those planes himself!
This is one example of a layer we've pulled off our unschooling onion (there are more, but I think I've used up my word quota for this message!). Each time I discover something like this it is such a delight!
Chrissy Gardiner