Comparing your beliefs with other parents' beliefs
Sandra Dodd
Someone sent me a long message and asked if she was in the twilight zone. Short answer—don’t read things that will make you unhappy.
This weekend at the HSC conference I said a couple of times that it’s good to find good examples, and to see bad examples. It’s not good to TELL someone she was your bad example, but the way you can decide how to be is to see how you do NOT want to be, and some ways that you do want to be, and move incrementally toward what you like.
I think it’s a waste of energy and a pollution of your own soul to spend much time criticizing or being shocked about other people’s practices. Let that go, unless it’s a moment of bad example, to show you how not to go.
__________
First I will post the last thing my correpondent wrote. :-) So anyone who wants to quit reading early and avoid the frustrating part can do that.
______________
it's not my intent to share negativity, I was just at such a loss as to what to do with this and where to go with it. Maybe I should post it somewhere. Maybe I should go out for a walk instead.
___________
Here’s the long part, and the quote is something Pam Sorooshian wrote.
___________
I’m sending you this Anonymously because I feel like I’m in the Twilight Zone here after reading some comments written by some local moms. I honestly don't know whom else I would tell this to locally who would "get it".
First, I have always enjoyed this particular portion of a wonderful page on your website:
“8. Let kids learn. Don't protect them or control them so much that they don't get needed experience. But, don't use the excuse of "natural consequences" to teach them a lesson. Instead, exemplify kindness and consideration. If you see a toy left lying in the driveway, don't leave it there to be run over, pick it up and set it aside because that is the kind and considerate thing to do and because kindness and consideration are values you want to pass on to your kids. Natural consequences will happen, they are inevitable. But it isn't "natural" anymore if you could have prevented it, but chose not to do so.” - http://sandradodd.com/pam/howto
Then recently, I stumbled upon some comments written by a local mom (whom I’ll call "Person A"), who has some older teens, and she had posted a link to a parenting blog post about how to not be a helicopter parent, and how to parent with a “let them bleed style of parenting” (yuck, which is just so awful and ridiculous that I won’t even post a link to it) but the point is that the comments and responses in a fb group, from Person A, Person B and Person C, really broke my heart. Person C actually calls herself an Unschooler. It all made me cry to read it and also made me so angry. Am I in the Twilight Zone here??
Person A: "My instinct is always to help, fix, or do for them, I have to remind myself to give my children the gift of failure. I'm finding it vital in the teen years, but more difficult to watch."
Person B: "I would love to hear more about that. I'm imagining the way to do it is to only offer help when asked for it?"
Person A: "Depending on the age: Let them miss the bus, or not have their homework completed. Let them leave their ballet shoes at home, make their own appointments, fill out their own forms, do not remind them of the items needed for the next activity. Don't take forgotten items to school/class/game etc. after too many times forgetting (everyone forgets things once in a while). Have them finish any classes, lessons, etc. they wanted until they have completed the time period you paid for. They need to practice the instrument they wanted and you paid for. Return it if they don't. Let them get down from the table after NOT eating and do not allow them to have anything else until the next meal. NEVER make a second meal for a child who doesn't like what is being served. Don't be responsible for getting them out of bed in the morning, teach them to use an alarm clock. Yes, this means elementary kids too. Let them miss the field trip because they didn't give you the permission slip. Don't keep track of their library books or due dates. Make them work off the cost of the library book they lost of fines incurred. Don't keep reminding them about the parking ticket they got. Try not to say I told you so too often, but you can say it here and we will laugh with you. The hardest part is when they hate you because they are really frustrated with themselves and also the perception by other parents that you are not doing your job. We control and hover so much these days, that we sometimes look like BAD when we allow our children to fail. Resist that feeling and know that someday you will be sending a high functioning adult into the world."
Person C: "I'm all about natural consequences"
Please tell me I'm in the Twilight Zone here. This cannot be how people who otherwise seemingly appear pretty normal and rational actually parent.
This weekend at the HSC conference I said a couple of times that it’s good to find good examples, and to see bad examples. It’s not good to TELL someone she was your bad example, but the way you can decide how to be is to see how you do NOT want to be, and some ways that you do want to be, and move incrementally toward what you like.
I think it’s a waste of energy and a pollution of your own soul to spend much time criticizing or being shocked about other people’s practices. Let that go, unless it’s a moment of bad example, to show you how not to go.
__________
First I will post the last thing my correpondent wrote. :-) So anyone who wants to quit reading early and avoid the frustrating part can do that.
______________
it's not my intent to share negativity, I was just at such a loss as to what to do with this and where to go with it. Maybe I should post it somewhere. Maybe I should go out for a walk instead.
___________
Here’s the long part, and the quote is something Pam Sorooshian wrote.
___________
I’m sending you this Anonymously because I feel like I’m in the Twilight Zone here after reading some comments written by some local moms. I honestly don't know whom else I would tell this to locally who would "get it".
First, I have always enjoyed this particular portion of a wonderful page on your website:
“8. Let kids learn. Don't protect them or control them so much that they don't get needed experience. But, don't use the excuse of "natural consequences" to teach them a lesson. Instead, exemplify kindness and consideration. If you see a toy left lying in the driveway, don't leave it there to be run over, pick it up and set it aside because that is the kind and considerate thing to do and because kindness and consideration are values you want to pass on to your kids. Natural consequences will happen, they are inevitable. But it isn't "natural" anymore if you could have prevented it, but chose not to do so.” - http://sandradodd.com/pam/howto
Then recently, I stumbled upon some comments written by a local mom (whom I’ll call "Person A"), who has some older teens, and she had posted a link to a parenting blog post about how to not be a helicopter parent, and how to parent with a “let them bleed style of parenting” (yuck, which is just so awful and ridiculous that I won’t even post a link to it) but the point is that the comments and responses in a fb group, from Person A, Person B and Person C, really broke my heart. Person C actually calls herself an Unschooler. It all made me cry to read it and also made me so angry. Am I in the Twilight Zone here??
Person A: "My instinct is always to help, fix, or do for them, I have to remind myself to give my children the gift of failure. I'm finding it vital in the teen years, but more difficult to watch."
Person B: "I would love to hear more about that. I'm imagining the way to do it is to only offer help when asked for it?"
Person A: "Depending on the age: Let them miss the bus, or not have their homework completed. Let them leave their ballet shoes at home, make their own appointments, fill out their own forms, do not remind them of the items needed for the next activity. Don't take forgotten items to school/class/game etc. after too many times forgetting (everyone forgets things once in a while). Have them finish any classes, lessons, etc. they wanted until they have completed the time period you paid for. They need to practice the instrument they wanted and you paid for. Return it if they don't. Let them get down from the table after NOT eating and do not allow them to have anything else until the next meal. NEVER make a second meal for a child who doesn't like what is being served. Don't be responsible for getting them out of bed in the morning, teach them to use an alarm clock. Yes, this means elementary kids too. Let them miss the field trip because they didn't give you the permission slip. Don't keep track of their library books or due dates. Make them work off the cost of the library book they lost of fines incurred. Don't keep reminding them about the parking ticket they got. Try not to say I told you so too often, but you can say it here and we will laugh with you. The hardest part is when they hate you because they are really frustrated with themselves and also the perception by other parents that you are not doing your job. We control and hover so much these days, that we sometimes look like BAD when we allow our children to fail. Resist that feeling and know that someday you will be sending a high functioning adult into the world."
Person C: "I'm all about natural consequences"
Please tell me I'm in the Twilight Zone here. This cannot be how people who otherwise seemingly appear pretty normal and rational actually parent.
Sandra Dodd
-=-Person C actually calls herself an Unschooler. It all made me cry to read it a-=-
Many people agree with those around them. If you see that and you don’t want to be that way, then good. But not everyone is confident or sure.
Don’t read things that make you cry. That’s the way not to cry.
If crying about what you read was a good thing, it would be possible to find enough sad and frustrating things to make you cry yourself sick. But who would take care of your children while you were crying about other people’s children?
There are MUCH worse things than someone threatening to return a musical instrument or not returning a library book. That stuff’s nothing, compared to what you COULD find.
If someone’s unschooling is so shaky that she will agree with anything she reads, then don’t put her on your list of people to get advice from. Wish her well. Maybe she’ll find better ideas to follow.
When you’re making choices that lead you toward more peaceful unschooling, choose to look away from other people’s harshness and meanness. There are a billion mean parents in the world. Don’t follow them around looking, listening, reading. There are a millions of nice parents. Follow a few of THEM around instead. :-)
Sandra
Many people agree with those around them. If you see that and you don’t want to be that way, then good. But not everyone is confident or sure.
Don’t read things that make you cry. That’s the way not to cry.
If crying about what you read was a good thing, it would be possible to find enough sad and frustrating things to make you cry yourself sick. But who would take care of your children while you were crying about other people’s children?
There are MUCH worse things than someone threatening to return a musical instrument or not returning a library book. That stuff’s nothing, compared to what you COULD find.
If someone’s unschooling is so shaky that she will agree with anything she reads, then don’t put her on your list of people to get advice from. Wish her well. Maybe she’ll find better ideas to follow.
When you’re making choices that lead you toward more peaceful unschooling, choose to look away from other people’s harshness and meanness. There are a billion mean parents in the world. Don’t follow them around looking, listening, reading. There are a millions of nice parents. Follow a few of THEM around instead. :-)
Sandra
sukaynalabboun@...
I reckon Sandra has already given the best advice. I do have some sweet, dear friends who parent in ways I find overly harsh and shocking. I limit my exposure, I try to find a place, when we are together, that minimizes the potential for problems ( on their end). I calmly and firmly convey my contentment with my own kids, sympathize politely with theirs, and offer that I don 't mind .....( driving, feeding, etc) for the group of kids.
This is in case you are in touch in real life with these types of scenarios. As Sandra said, there is much worse abuse ( unfortunately) out there. I do value the adult relationships, and they do meet or exceed the min. requirement of caring, non violent parenting.....so I try to politely run interference or diffuse. I also talk to my kids when they see or hear things that strike them as over the top- never in a condescending way- more in a how to get by in the world way.
Sometimes we altogether avoid such gatherings. Sometimes we chose to interact with old or dear friends in spite of our differences. I think that is socialization 😉
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On Aug 3, 2016, at 1:46 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
-=-Person C actually calls herself an Unschooler. It all made me cry to read it a-=-
Many people agree with those around them. If you see that and you don’t want to be that way, then good. But not everyone is confident or sure.
Don’t read things that make you cry. That’s the way not to cry.
If crying about what you read was a good thing, it would be possible to find enough sad and frustrating things to make you cry yourself sick. But who would take care of your children while you were crying about other people’s children?
There are MUCH worse things than someone threatening to return a musical instrument or not returning a library book. That stuff’s nothing, compared to what you COULD find.
If someone’s unschooling is so shaky that she will agree with anything she reads, then don’t put her on your list of people to get advice from. Wish her well. Maybe she’ll find better ideas to follow.
When you’re making choices that lead you toward more peaceful unschooling, choose to look away from other people’s harshness and meanness. There are a billion mean parents in the world. Don’t follow them around looking, listening, reading. There are a millions of nice parents. Follow a few of THEM around instead. :-)
Sandra
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Posted by: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
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Robyn Coburn
You will find that a lot of people CALL themselves unschoolers who are not practicing it with the principles we talk about here, the first one being Partnership.
If your best friend was about to step on a tripwire, would you stop them? Then do the same for your child. It doesn't make you an unschooler to ignore traps deliberately, even if you didn't install them. I don't think there is anything to be proud of in intentionally being an asshole.
I didn't stop having compassion and love when my daughter became a teen. It is no more a magic age than when she turned 6 - school age. Sometimes I feel like she needs more help rather than less, and the consequences of leaving her without a net are a lot more serious now.
Don't read in regular parenting groups, for sure. But also know, there are places - Facebook groups especially - that are almost notorious for being full of horrible advice purporting to be unschooling. If the people make you feel distressed, especially if it is not going to move you towards unschooling peacefully, even more especially if no one challenges it, don't read there. There are better places to get good information.
Robyn L Coburn
Http://WorkInProduction.com
Http://IggyJingles.com
If your best friend was about to step on a tripwire, would you stop them? Then do the same for your child. It doesn't make you an unschooler to ignore traps deliberately, even if you didn't install them. I don't think there is anything to be proud of in intentionally being an asshole.
I didn't stop having compassion and love when my daughter became a teen. It is no more a magic age than when she turned 6 - school age. Sometimes I feel like she needs more help rather than less, and the consequences of leaving her without a net are a lot more serious now.
Don't read in regular parenting groups, for sure. But also know, there are places - Facebook groups especially - that are almost notorious for being full of horrible advice purporting to be unschooling. If the people make you feel distressed, especially if it is not going to move you towards unschooling peacefully, even more especially if no one challenges it, don't read there. There are better places to get good information.
Robyn L Coburn
Http://WorkInProduction.com
Http://IggyJingles.com
sukaynalabboun@...
I reckon Sandra has already given the best advice. I do have some sweet, dear friends who parent in ways I find overly harsh and shocking. I limit my exposure, I try to find a place, when we are together, that minimizes the potential for problems ( on their end). I calmly and firmly convey my contentment with my own kids, sympathize politely with theirs, and offer that I don 't mind .....( driving, feeding, etc) for the group of kids.
This is in case you are in touch in real life with these types of scenarios. As Sandra said, there is much worse abuse ( unfortunately) out there. I do value the adult relationships, and they do meet or exceed the min. requirement of caring, non violent parenting.....so I try to politely run interference or diffuse. I also talk to my kids when they see or hear things that strike them as over the top- never in a condescending way- more in a how to get by in the world way.
Sometimes we altogether avoid such gatherings. Sometimes we chose to interact with old or dear friends in spite of our differences. I think that is socialization 😉
Confidentiality Note: This message is intended only for the named
recipient and may contain confidential, proprietary or legally
privileged information. Unauthorized individuals or entities are not
permitted access to this information. Any dissemination, distribution,
or copying of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-
mail, and delete this message and any attachments.
On Aug 3, 2016, at 1:46 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
-=-Person C actually calls herself an Unschooler. It all made me cry to read it a-=-
Many people agree with those around them. If you see that and you don’t want to be that way, then good. But not everyone is confident or sure.
Don’t read things that make you cry. That’s the way not to cry.
If crying about what you read was a good thing, it would be possible to find enough sad and frustrating things to make you cry yourself sick. But who would take care of your children while you were crying about other people’s children?
There are MUCH worse things than someone threatening to return a musical instrument or not returning a library book. That stuff’s nothing, compared to what you COULD find.
If someone’s unschooling is so shaky that she will agree with anything she reads, then don’t put her on your list of people to get advice from. Wish her well. Maybe she’ll find better ideas to follow.
When you’re making choices that lead you toward more peaceful unschooling, choose to look away from other people’s harshness and meanness. There are a billion mean parents in the world. Don’t follow them around looking, listening, reading. There are a millions of nice parents. Follow a few of THEM around instead. :-)
Sandra
------------------------------------
Posted by: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Don't read in regular parenting groups, for sure. But also know, there are places - Facebook groups especially - that are almost notorious for being full of horrible advice purporting to be unschooling. -=-
Yes. Please. (Thank you Robin.)
Part of making choices is choosing what to disregard (or fully ignore).
-=- If the people make you feel distressed, especially if it is not going to move you towards unschooling peacefully, even more especially if no one challenges it, don't read there. -=-
Some groups are set up by people who don’t have the ability to tell anyone else to back off.
Some groups are set up by someone who doesn’t check back (or maybe once a month does that), and the group can get away in a whole unexpected direction.
Some groups are set up by people wanting numbers, who will never turn anyone away or remove a member.
Some groups are set up to promote a business (even if it’s not obvious on the surface).
No one should depend on any one source for all their information—not one single friend, or author, or discussion. Find two or three or more, and use the best ideas. You might settle on a favorite, but you should get there by comparisons and for real reasons.
And what you decide not to invest your time and energy in, that might also be something you disengage from—temporally and emotionally. Yes, some discussions are screwed up or go off topic or are filled with mainstream advice. So don’t get mad about it, or sad. Try to live your life without regard to those folks. You’re ignoring most of the millions of people in your own country, so ignoring a few dozen more isn’t harsh.
Sandra
Yes. Please. (Thank you Robin.)
Part of making choices is choosing what to disregard (or fully ignore).
-=- If the people make you feel distressed, especially if it is not going to move you towards unschooling peacefully, even more especially if no one challenges it, don't read there. -=-
Some groups are set up by people who don’t have the ability to tell anyone else to back off.
Some groups are set up by someone who doesn’t check back (or maybe once a month does that), and the group can get away in a whole unexpected direction.
Some groups are set up by people wanting numbers, who will never turn anyone away or remove a member.
Some groups are set up to promote a business (even if it’s not obvious on the surface).
No one should depend on any one source for all their information—not one single friend, or author, or discussion. Find two or three or more, and use the best ideas. You might settle on a favorite, but you should get there by comparisons and for real reasons.
And what you decide not to invest your time and energy in, that might also be something you disengage from—temporally and emotionally. Yes, some discussions are screwed up or go off topic or are filled with mainstream advice. So don’t get mad about it, or sad. Try to live your life without regard to those folks. You’re ignoring most of the millions of people in your own country, so ignoring a few dozen more isn’t harsh.
Sandra
Caroline Lieber
"I think it’s a waste of energy and a pollution of your own soul to spend much time criticizing or being shocked about other people’s practices. Let that go, unless it’s a moment of bad example, to show you how not to go."
I love this. I think it is really useful for all kinds of moments. It works for the news and gossipy conversations and talking with earnest concern about other people. Thanks Sandra.
Caroline
I love this. I think it is really useful for all kinds of moments. It works for the news and gossipy conversations and talking with earnest concern about other people. Thanks Sandra.
Caroline
Colleen Prieto
***Don’t read things that make you cry. That’s the way not to cry.***
For years now, whenever I’ve accidentally read something that’s made me want to cry :-) I’ve done a particular thing to help myself move away from those feelings of sadness and frustration -
Whether the Something I read is about the way people parent, or about someone’s poor opinion of their child, or about something bad that’s happened to children (school shootings come to mind) or such, I stop reading as soon as I realize what I’m doing, and I go do something wonderful for my son instead - because that’s someone I can have a direct, positive impact on, and a way I can do something concrete to combat sadness and make things feel better in my tiny part of the world.
I’ve taken him shopping for Legos or a new video game, we’ve gone out for ice cream or pizza, we’ve gone to play mini golf or to play at the shore, we’ve raced Mario Kart or battled Tetris - whatever I think he might enjoy at the moment, I offer up. He’s 13 now but he still rarely turns me down when I come up with something fun :-)
I can’t fix things for children whose parents are unkind, or for children who find themselves in the middle of horrible and unthinkable situations - but I can remind myself that my son’s life is good, and that so far we have not found ourselves in the middle of anything terrible. I can focus on the Now and on the doable - and I can make his life sweeter and good at a particular moment in time that we can never get back (so it might as well be wonderful!!).
-Colleen