Sarada de Villeneuve

We have a nearly 9 year old boy who was previously in school. We took him out at age 7 as he was getting unhappier as the years went on. He was there from age 4, and before that nursery which years later said he hated but we didn't know at the time.

We also have a nearly 6 year old who also went to nursery and 2 terms of school for half days only. We then gave him the choice to continue and he said he'd rather be at home playing with Lego.

And finally we have a 3 and a half year old girl who has only been at home but we are considering nursery as she has expressed an interest in doing something like that.

I didn't know home educating was an option, otherwise in hindsight I wouldn't have sent my just turned 4 year old as it never felt right. We started researching HE and discovered unschooling about 6 months before we took my oldest out of school and have been reading and moving slowly towards RU ever since.

I feel that my oldest is still recovering from school. He has been parented in the most conventional way out of my 3. I have regrets about some of my actions towards him in the past.

He is resistant to doing anything other than what he wants. And is very angry with me all the time but cannot verbalise why. I understand about bringing the world to him but at the same time I have two younger children who want to be out in the world. For example my three year old would like to be at the park more often and go to toddler playgroups and my 5 year old wants to make more friends and is also happy being out and about.

My oldest shows me an unhappy face when he wakes up in the morning and when I try to talk to him he thinks
I'm mad at him. His words. When actually I'm smiling asking how he is and trying to work out plans for the day and how we could make it work for all of us. If I ask his opinion about anything he says I don't know.

When my oldest does play with his siblings he often ends up going too far and I need to be on high alert to make sure he notices his sibling is getting upset or hurt or shouting stop. I do try to intervene before that happens. I try to hug him and keep him close if I see he's getting into that mood. But sometimes it's not enough. He will persist.

We do go to some groups. He is reluctant to go and struggles most with the transition but seems to enjoy himself a bit when he's there. But he will give me a hard time the whole way there and all day. Complaining and always saying the negative of a situation. I listen and try to point out the good stuff to him, engage him in topics he's interested in, but the constant negativity from him wears me down by the end of the day.

I would love some help on meeting everyone's needs. I don't really have anyone who can watch him while the rest of us go out. Also on how can I improve my relationship with my oldest son? And his relationships with the rest of the family? His younger brother often wants to play with him like they used to, but my oldest doesn't want to, and I think that's triggered my youngest to say he's lonely and wants to see more friends.

My partner feels disheartened when he sees how my older son behaves sometimes so I try to keep the bad moments from him. He's at work all day and I'm at home with the kids. My mother also thinks I should be stricter but she doesn't understand (or want to?) what we are trying to do. I find it hard to advocate for my kids when she visits. But she is great fun and helps out and plays with the kids.

I feel stuck as to how to help my oldest son and I think his unhappiness impacts the rest of us. My 3 year old even describes him as grumpy when she talks about him. I feel like I have ruined my sweet happy toddler by sending him to school for all those years.

Sent from my iPhone

Sarah Peshek

=-=He is resistant to doing anything other than what he wants. =-=
Do you expect him to want to do what he doesn't want to do?  He DOES want what he wants.  He needs you to understand that, to accept that, AS IS.  While he may need guidance at times to learn how to get his wants and needs met without infringing on others, his needs right now are real and valid.  You use a lot of words that express negative thinking toward your son:
=-=I need to be on high alert =-=
=-=He is resistant=-=
=-=is very angry with me=-=
=-=unhappy face=-=
=-= reluctant=-=
=-= struggles=-=
=-= give me a hard time=-=
=-= Complaining and always saying the negative=-=
=-= constant negativity=-=

Have encountered the idea that kids do the best they can?  On the whole, your email sounds like you think your son should be doing something other than what he has been.  But when you trust him, that he is doing the very best he can in each moment, that changes your perspective on his actions.  
When you think all day about how negative he is, how difficult he is making life for everyone, that shows.  He picks up on that - you said that he thinks you're angry even when you smile.  Your e-mail sounds angry, partly toward your son and also partly toward your past self.  Be gentle with him and with yourself.  Be patient.  Your paradigm might have shifted largely, but your children do not understand all of that.  Trust takes time, combined with being trustworthy.

=-= I don't really have anyone who can watch him =-=
Find someone, if that's really what would help the situation.  When he was in school, my guess would be you wouldn't say, "He needs a ride to school but I don't really have anyone who can do that."  You'd solve the problem.  Right now, it sounds like his needs really aren't being met.  When you unschool, meeting their needs is your job.  It has challenges at times, but it is more pleasant to me than dealing with school ever was!
What comes to my mind right away is that it seems like it might be a good starting place to have some days where you just don't have that drawn-out PLAN FOR THE DAY talk with your oldest son.  Just let him be at home, doing his thing.  Spend time getting to know what he likes, what makes him shine and arrange the world so that can happen as much as possible.  If the younger two have other needs, think of how you can meet them at home, just for a short time.  What is it about being at home that your oldest enjoys?  From what you write, it's not clear if the problem is going out itself or more the negotiation process that he finds unpleasant.  When you start the day with "OK, what are you going to give up so that your siblings can have what they want?" it probably makes him feel defensive from the get-go.  
Then, maybe a regular sitter, or another mother you swap child care with.  Or maybe you find out there is a way to bring what he loves with him to the younger kids' park days.  Maybe your younger kids can have friends over sometimes so that they have more playmates but your older son can be home (if that's what he wants).  You mentioned your mother.  I don't know if she lives close, but perhaps she could be helpful in playing with your younger two at times and/or taking them out while you spend time with your 9 year old, doing things he loves.  But don't try to talk him into liking things he's skeptical about.  You can be excited about them without convincing him that he needs to also be excited.  When you do that, I'll bet it makes him feel like you don't understand him at all. You would not like it if your husband insisted that you go to something you didn't want to do and spent the whole way there telling you why you should be excited about it.  

Treat his needs as real.  Be his partner.  Find a way to do it lovingly, in ways that allow everyone to be peaceful.

Best of luck,
Sarah Rae


Bernadette Lynn

================
He is resistant to doing anything other than what he wants. And is very angry with me all the time but cannot verbalise why. I understand about bringing the world to him but at the same time I have two younger children who want to be out in the world. For example my three year old would like to be at the park more often and go to toddler playgroups and my 5 year old wants to make more friends and is also happy being out and about.
================================



Don't expect him to verbalise why he's angry. Watch him, pay close attention to what he's thinking and feeling and work it out for yourself.

What are you asking him to do, that he's resisting? If it's going to toddler playgroups, why doesn't he like going? Do you expect to chat with other parents when you're there, and leave him to entertain himself? Do you bring his toys and games with him, so he can do what he wants while he's there? Are you asking him to walk further than he's comfortable with?



 ==========================
My oldest shows me an unhappy face when he wakes up in the morning and when I try to talk to him he thinks
I'm mad at him. His words. When actually I'm smiling asking how he is and trying to work out plans for the day and how we could make it work for all of us. If I ask his opinion about anything he says I don't know.
============================= 


Maybe you're talking too much. He might find mornings hard. Have you tried simply saying "good morning, love!" with a big smile, and leaving it at that? Get him some food and let him eat and wait for him to be ready to talk. If you work out your plans for the day the night before he wouldn't have to deal with them when he wakes. Or you could make the plans, with what you know of his likes and dislikes in mind, and not ask his opinion: be ready instead to listen and make adjustments if he tells you verbally or non-verbally that he isn't happy, but taking all pressure of decision-making off him.



====================== 
When my oldest does play with his siblings he often ends up going too far and I need to be on high alert to make sure he notices his sibling is getting upset or hurt or shouting stop. I do try to intervene before that happens. I try to hug him and keep him close if I see he's getting into that mood. But sometimes it's not enough. He will persist.
==============================


This says to me that he needs more of your presence. Not just being on high alert and intervening, but actively playing with him. Sitting on the floor at his level and being part of his world.



===============================
 But he will give me a hard time the whole way there and all day. Complaining and always saying the negative of a situation. I listen and try to point out the good stuff to him, engage him in topics he's interested in, but the constant negativity from him wears me down by the end of the day.
===================================

He tells you all the way to a playgroup, and throughout the day, that he doesn't want to do it and doesn't want to be there, but you ignore him and tell him all the things you think he should be happy and grateful about. Well, he isn't! He's verbally explaining to you why he's angry, but you aren't doing anything about it. That's not constant negativity, it's constant feedback about his needs. He can't enjoy the good stuff, because the bad stuff is too big. Find ways of making the bad stuff less bad. It might mean not going on outings for a month or two. It might mean bringing more of home with you when you go, buying him a DS and some games, or bringing a bag of his favourite books to read to him. It might mean shifting your activities to later in the day, so he has longer to wake up in the mornings, or choosing places which suit him better. Look at what he doesn't like and change that, instead of trying to change him.


You should stop seeing him as a negative, grumpy person who has been ruined. That sounds so final! See instead an unhappy child whose needs aren't currently being met. The way he feels now doesn't have to be the way he is for the rest of his life. You may have ruined his babyhood, but you haven't ruined him.


Bernadette.

Sarah Thompson

I learned that we tend to remember events based on two components-the most traumatic part and the last part. I can't always prevent the most traumatic part of something for my kids, if I don't see it coming, but I have a lot of control over the last part. I try to make that a highlight, if I can, especially if it follows something that isn't a favorite of one of my children, or that involved some upset.

What can you do to make everything end high? Can you stop for ice cream on the way home or plan a special dessert? Is there a favorite game or activity to finish with? What kinds of things might be welcome surprises? Sometimes if my 6yo is low I grab a bag of jellybeans and line them up along the tables and counters, and don't say anything. He discovers them and gets so excited! Or maybe there is a little in-game microtransaction that I can buy for my older child, or just give him fifty cents just because! There are so many ways to add an accent-note. Look for them.

Sarah

Sandra Dodd

Original poster:
>
>
> I feel like I have ruined my sweet happy toddler by sending him to school for all those years.


Ann Hedley (whose post might have glitched or been deleted in error) wrote:
_____________

Maybe. You could think about what if and why and how terrible you might have been all day. It won’t make you feel better and it won’t help make today better.

He isn’t a toddler anymore. He might still be a sweet happy child given the chance. You could explore just exactly who he is today by sharing something, even if it is a cup of tea, a joke, a day off from the worry.

Ann
____________

Sandra, now:


Yes! Even when people start with angry teens, recovery is possible, but it takes a lot of changing on the part of the mom.

http://sandradodd.com/later

If they can do it, the mom of a young boy can.

Maybe what will help more than anything is subscribing to Just Add Light and Stir. Read one or two of those a day. There are a few years of back-posts you could explore, but reading doesn’t change anything—read and DO. Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.

http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com

Sandra

janine davies

>>We have a nearly 9 year old boy who was previously in school. We took him out at age 7 as he was getting unhappier as the years went on. He was there from age 4, and before that nursery which years later said he hated but we didn't know at the time. <<


I have a nearly 14 yr old who was previously in school. He left at age 10 as he was getting unhappier as the years went on. He too was there from age 4 (I'm in the UK), and he also said he hated pre-school, and we didn't know at the time, although the signs were there right from the start, we just didn't see them until hindsight.


>>I feel that my oldest is still recovering from school. He has been parented in the most conventional way out of my 3. I have regrets about some of my actions towards him in the past. <<


My boy is still recovering three years later. I still had regrets and negativity dragging me down until about a year ago, about school and our parenting. Regret achieves nothing, and pulls you into negativity and wallowing. Living fully and mindfully in the now is the most powerful thing you can do. As well as letting go of ALL negativity, living so positively that you literally will become a different person, I have. [😊]


>>He is resistant to doing anything other than what he wants. And is very angry with me all the time but cannot verbalise why.<<


He is resistant because he wants to do what he wants. This is everything! He has been unable to do that for 5 years. Allow him to do what he wants as much as possible. As soon as we totally allowed that with our son, he then started to heal.


He is angry, but not necessarily at you, but even if he is, please don't push him to explain why. He will heal from that too, but he needs time and no pressure at all to explain his feelings, and he needs to be able to do what he wants to do. Once we allowed that fully with our son then the anger started to subside, it rears its head if he is under pressure to do something that makes him uncomfortable, or if he gets caught up in his head thinking of things he 'should' be doing or being, (he has some schooled friends and this makes him anxious sometimes, things like -- when they say they cant play because of home work or exams or something, he gets edgy and insecure about what he is doing or not doing ) this anxiety is lessening though as he is healing.


>>I understand about bringing the world to him but at the same time I have two younger children who want to be out in the world. For example my three year old would like to be at the park more often and go to toddler playgroups and my 5 year old wants to make more friends and is also happy being out and about. <<


But the world and what a child wants to see explore and learn from it is different to each individual child, and the bits of it they want to explore or have brought to them will be different to each child. My eldest doesn't want to be out in the world much at all at the moment, and hasn't for about a year or more. He loves home, always has, and he games a lot, watches films a lot, and reads online a lot. He goes out in the garden often to play with the water hose and the pets, and he watches any alternative comedy he can lay his hands on.

I make sure he has the world of films and comedy at his fingertips by joining LoveFILm and net flicks etc...He has the world of gaming at his fingertips with a steam account and gets new games the minute they are realeaed, some times early access.

The stuff he reads about on line is mind-blowing, Russian culture, including learning some of the language, time travle, alternate realities, aliens, ants and their behaviour.... and lots more, and that he shares with us full of joy and wonder at what he found and learnt. He sometimes stays up all night, and sleeps all day, sometimes he gets up early and goes for a jog. The important thing here is that he is doing what he wants to do, he is fully self directing that, and with full trust and support from us.


My son hated going to home ed groups, any groups, I stopped trying to force him, in the end....and just the other day after two years of me not trying to coerce him into to it, he said to me 'I might like to come with you to that group you and Kes like' [😊]


Just today he said that watching the film 'Donnie Darko' last night has changed his life! He said it has totally changed how he see everything! and how he views the world, and how he thinks about school and medicines and labels, EVERYTHING! . WOW! Thats the kind of enlightenment some people only get from spending a fortune and a long time travelling the world! HE found it watching a film right here at home in a suburb of greater London! [😊]



(BTW He picks the film list on love film, he chose that film, and he decided to watch it last night.) He has just asked me if I will watch it with him tonight and thats just what I'm going to do now.


I have another son five years younger -- they are like chalk and cheese. he loves nature and animals and seeing friends and going to the park. I can of course now leave my eldest at home while we go out, and when he was younger it was trickier, but we made it work. I have no immediate family in the country so my partner and I took turns, and got sitters when we could, and found inventive ways to make it work - like taking my son to the park after work, and at weekends lots of fun time with dad, at home and out, just the two of them.


>>My oldest shows me an unhappy face when he wakes up in the morning and when I try to talk to him he thinks
I'm mad at him. His words. When actually I'm smiling asking how he is and trying to work out plans for the day and how we could make it work for all of us. If I ask his opinion about anything he says I don't know.<<<


He may not be a morning person...and he is getting older they change considerably when in the adolescent years, my eldest used to rise at 5.50/6am and like he was going to explode with excitement, now he take ages to come round, and used to grunt at me mostly if I tried to talk to him, so I stopped trying. After an hour or so of silence and taking breakfast off to his room he is back to his happy chatty self, but some days not, especially if he is caught up in a game or something and has no time or inclination to chat.


I also think you may need to talk less, thats a lot of things to throw at someone first thing in the morning! And especially at someone who just wants to do what he wants...Once we stopped trying to 'make it work for all of us' then we found peace and healing. My son used to say 'I don't know' and I finally took that as a signal that he probably doesn't want to do that thing, or he just doesn't want to speak right now. He hardly ever says 'I don't know' if I offer something he loves [😊]


>>>I feel like I have ruined my sweet happy toddler by sending him to school for all those years.<<<


So many people said to me 'But just imagine if he were still there' and I never really got that, I was too caught up in the past. NOW I am so grateful and so happy and so at peace that we did find this way of life, and before it really was too late. Also I see that little sweet happy boy so much now, and he is still there in your son too, but he needs to heal, and he needs to do what he wants to do, and he needs full trust from you at all times. He needs to know you have his back. Its worth it a thousand times over, trust me. [😊]


I hope this helps,

Janine x










________________________________
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Sarada de Villeneuve sdevilleneuve@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]>
Sent: 26 May 2016 11:27:12
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Feeling stuck



We have a nearly 9 year old boy who was previously in school. We took him out at age 7 as he was getting unhappier as the years went on. He was there from age 4, and before that nursery which years later said he hated but we didn't know at the time.

We also have a nearly 6 year old who also went to nursery and 2 terms of school for half days only. We then gave him the choice to continue and he said he'd rather be at home playing with Lego.

And finally we have a 3 and a half year old girl who has only been at home but we are considering nursery as she has expressed an interest in doing something like that.

I didn't know home educating was an option, otherwise in hindsight I wouldn't have sent my just turned 4 year old as it never felt right. We started researching HE and discovered unschooling about 6 months before we took my oldest out of school and have been reading and moving slowly towards RU ever since.

I feel that my oldest is still recovering from school. He has been parented in the most conventional way out of my 3. I have regrets about some of my actions towards him in the past.

He is resistant to doing anything other than what he wants. And is very angry with me all the time but cannot verbalise why. I understand about bringing the world to him but at the same time I have two younger children who want to be out in the world. For example my three year old would like to be at the park more often and go to toddler playgroups and my 5 year old wants to make more friends and is also happy being out and about.

My oldest shows me an unhappy face when he wakes up in the morning and when I try to talk to him he thinks
I'm mad at him. His words. When actually I'm smiling asking how he is and trying to work out plans for the day and how we could make it work for all of us. If I ask his opinion about anything he says I don't know.

When my oldest does play with his siblings he often ends up going too far and I need to be on high alert to make sure he notices his sibling is getting upset or hurt or shouting stop. I do try to intervene before that happens. I try to hug him and keep him close if I see he's getting into that mood. But sometimes it's not enough. He will persist.

We do go to some groups. He is reluctant to go and struggles most with the transition but seems to enjoy himself a bit when he's there. But he will give me a hard time the whole way there and all day. Complaining and always saying the negative of a situation. I listen and try to point out the good stuff to him, engage him in topics he's interested in, but the constant negativity from him wears me down by the end of the day.

I would love some help on meeting everyone's needs. I don't really have anyone who can watch him while the rest of us go out. Also on how can I improve my relationship with my oldest son? And his relationships with the rest of the family? His younger brother often wants to play with him like they used to, but my oldest doesn't want to, and I think that's triggered my youngest to say he's lonely and wants to see more friends.

My partner feels disheartened when he sees how my older son behaves sometimes so I try to keep the bad moments from him. He's at work all day and I'm at home with the kids. My mother also thinks I should be stricter but she doesn't understand (or want to?) what we are trying to do. I find it hard to advocate for my kids when she visits. But she is great fun and helps out and plays with the kids.

I feel stuck as to how to help my oldest son and I think his unhappiness impacts the rest of us. My 3 year old even describes him as grumpy when she talks about him. I feel like I have ruined my sweet happy toddler by sending him to school for all those years.

Sent from my iPhone




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

semajrak@...

**He is resistant to doing anything other than what he wants.**

When my son was three, shortly after we moved to a new city and a new home, while still unpacking, Ethan and I were playing a game he had made up.  He was pretending to be a CD player, and I was inserting the CD.  Here's a link to the video on my Facebook page:

Karen James | Facebook

 

For as long as I can remember Ethan has been fiercely dedicated to doing what he wants to do, thinking what he wants to think, and exploring the world around him in a way that was most comfortable and most enriching for him.  He used to sing that song in the back seat of the car.  It was his very own greatest hit for a while.  Doug and I have fond memories of hearing him sing that song.  We listened closely too.  We paid attention to what he was saying, and we honoured his spirit as sincerely and as dilligently as we could.

He's thirteen now.  This past year he's been more open to doing things he would have said no to in the past.  He has been given lots of room over the years to be in and learn from the world in ways that felt good to him.  I think he's opening up to the idea of moving out of his comfort zone a bit, fully trusting that when he finds himself overwhelmed or too uncomfortable, we'll support his need to return to something more familiar.  I think, too, as he's maturing, he's starting to appreciate the value of sharing in someone else's interests, even when they're not something he's particularly interested in himself.  

**And is very angry with me all the time but cannot verbalise why.**

Maybe he doesn't know how to tell you.  Maybe he never had a song for how he felt.  ;-)  Maybe he did and you weren't listening.  Maybe you were listening buy not taking steps to support his experience.  That can be frustrating, especially if it happens regularly.  


Sometimes I can't verbalize why I'm frustrated.  In those times it's wonderful to have a friend who knows me well enough not to need me to explain.  A friend who understands some of my own personal challenges and can help me navigate them.  A friend who can recall what brings me joy, and walk me in that direction again.  Take some time to learn as much as you can about your son so that you can be that friend to your boy.


Karen James

 

Karen Angstadt

What immediately caught my attention is that you're going to a "toddler playgroup". I can't imagine there is much for an 8 year old boy to do there.

If your younger children want to get out a little, maybe try to find a local homeschool group where there will be varied ages and maybe a friend for each of the children.

Very often homeschool families have toddlers and school age children. Maybe one of them might be willing to help or trade help- but I would caution you not to trade your oldest. It sounds like he wants to keep close to home and close to you.

My kids go through phases where they want to be out or they want to be home more. And not always at the same time. It helps to keep in mind that "out" can be flexible. A 3 year old might not care if she is at "playgroup" or at the mall play area.

"Out" can be flexibly accomplished after Dad gets home, if no other help is available.

Maybe it's ok to ask your son to compromise a little- ask if he would be willing to play with his brother a little more if that meant staying home a little more.

Karen

Sent from my iPhone

Sandra Dodd

-=- I need to be on high alert to make sure he notices his sibling is getting upset or hurt or shouting stop.-=-

Instead, be on alert to keep the other kids safe ad comfortable. If one is getting upset or is at the point of shouting stop (instead of saying it calmly), then you weren’t near enough and attentive enough. Don’t leave them alone with the older child—not because he’s a danger, but because they’re probably bugging him, and he’s probably trying to show that he would rather be alone, and that’s being disregarded by the family.

-=-. I listen and try to point out the good stuff to him, engage him in topics he's interested in, but the constant negativity from him wears me down by the end of the day. -=-

Instead of pointing out the good stuff, maybe roll with his negativity to the point that it’s an exaggeration (depends how humor is between the two of you—I could’ve made it work with two of mine). But short of that (which is probably not going to work if your relationship is strained), you could ask what would make it better. Don’t say “you’re wrong to be unhappy.” Ask what he wants. Or let him say what he says without engaging in an argument about it.

-=-Also on how can I improve my relationship with my oldest son? And his relationships with the rest of the family? His younger brother often wants to play with him like they used to, but my oldest doesn't want to, and I think that's triggered my youngest to say he's lonely and wants to see more friends. -=-

Maybe you’re depending on him too much as another adult, or expecting him to play as he used to when he was younger. Don’t say that your youngest is “triggered.” That’s a loaded word.

Here’s an extreme idea, but consider it as an exercise in thought and what you really want.
Could you put your oldest up for adoption? Would your whole family be better off without him? Might another family love him more than you do?

Your post sounds like he’s the only negative part of an otherwise joyful life. He might be aware that you think so. You might have said so.

Maybe when he IS feeling communicative sometime (NOT in the morning, maybe when it’s just the two of you, when your partner can stay with the other two and the two of you can go to do something actually useful—buying shoes for him, or fun groceries, or going to get take-out food to bring to the rest of the family, when you’re alone in the car, maybe you could ask if he has ideas for making things better. And then just listen. JUST LISTEN and say you’ll think about it. If he doesn’t want to tell you ideas or he doesn’t have any, don’t say anything. He might need to think about it for a while.

http://sandradodd.com/truck
Read that, please, about what can help conversations flow.

And if putting him up for adoption sounded crazy or stupid to you, then decide to keep him. Don’t feel stuck and helpless and oppressed and trapped by him. Choose to keep him, and to love him.

Sandra