Sarah Thompson

My 6yo does not like to bathe. It hasn't been a problem; he doesn't like to get too dirty and he gets to swim in the summer. In the winter it can be trickier, but we manage.

He has said to me several times things like, "I don't like going to the beach with Gramma because she makes me take a shower." "Sometimes Gramma makes me take a bath and I don't like that." He often says he hates the beach, and I think it might be because of cleaning off the sand.

My mom knows that I don't push baths and showers, but she doesn't want sand in the house or dirt in the bed and I think she also wants to grandparent her way rather than mine, when she's on her turf, anyway.

How can I approach this bath issue?

Sarah

Sandra Dodd

-=-How can I approach this bath issue?-=-

Mainly by not assuming it will last for twenty years. It might last for a year or two. MAYBE six or seven years.

Historically, baths were never as frequent as people with indoor plumbing and hot running water expect them to be. It’s not the end of ANYbody’s world if he doesn’t take a lot of baths at the age of six is it?

Surely there are many places in the world today where baths aren’t available, or common. Gypsies/Romanies are opposed to baths, but will take showers or bathe in rivers. Maybe some research for fun on baths in the world would be helpful (for you to relax, for him to get some interest in bathtubs or showers, maybe).

What about an outdoor shower—either one you set up, or a camping solar-heated shower (you could fill the bag with already warm water).

Others will have other ideas, but I think the first approach should be perspective! And not nagging him.

Sandra

Sarah Thompson

I don't need him to bathe, but my mom *does* insist that he bathe, and he's angry about it.

Sarah

Sarah Thompson

I guess I'm wondering if and how to intercede about that. There is an outside shower and a dunk bucket but he dislikes them both.

Sarah

Bernadette Lynn


==================

I don't need him to bathe, but my mom *does* insist that he bathe, and he's angry about it.

Sarah


==============================



Do you live with your mom?


Does she physically come in the bathroom and wash him? My son around that age became very protective of his privacy and wouldn't have a bath naked. Maybe he would be OK with a bath with toys and his swimming costume on and no-one else in the room. 

Perhaps your mother would be happy if he washed his feet and hands, and put clean clothes on.

Some children don't like getting their faces wet, but would accept hair washing with a face shield. Brushing hair with a brush dipped in water between strokes gets a lot of sand and salt out, without getting the hair too wet.

 He might like to sit in a empty bath with a bucket of water to splash in, and a flannel to wipe himself with.

You could bring your own sheets and pillowcases and do your own laundry, so he doesn't get dirt on your mom's sheets. Offer to sweep or vacuum any sand he treads into the house. Maybe get him a hoodie so his salty hair doesn't rub on her chairs.

You could avoid him going to the beach with his grandmother for a year or two, until he understands better why she wants him to be clean.

Bernadette.

Sandra Dodd

-=-I don't need him to bathe, but my mom *does* insist that he bathe, and he's angry about it.-=-

YOU know your options. They’re the same whether you’re unschooling or not.
But what are your principles? What are your priorities?

Is he staying with your mom because you need the childcare? Does he want to go there? Is she inviting him?

I think the best thing would be for you to persuade him somehow NOT to be angry about it. If a bath is the price of something he wants to do, sell him on it.

If going there is NOT something he wants to do, then the bath is your fault, maybe.

Sandra

Sarah Thompson

This is when he is with her without me. He is choosing to go, but only when his brother is there. I will make sure he knows he has the option not to go. Thank you for pointing that out. 

I think it is her prerogative to want him to get the sand off before he comes in the house. I think she would be hurt if he chose not to go with her because of the bathing. I am trying to pitch him on it, but I'm not really sure what's wrong. Is it problematic to let them sort it out on their own? Do I interfere or not? Is it harmful to their relationship?

Is it possible that him telling me about it is the resolution? That he can shower off the sand at the beach or feel bullied about food in a conventional (grand)parenting situation but be okay because it's *not* like that at home and he can complain about it.

The unschooling discussions have helped me see how and why to do a better job of mediating the needs of ALL the players, and not just my kids, but I still feel like I don't know where to place myself when it comes to the kids and grandparents together in my absence. (And yes, there were times during my hospitalization when I did need the childcare and I had to accept it for what it was, and so did the kids, and there may be baggage left from those times for the younger one.)

Sarah

Ann Hedly Rousseau

Is it an option, for now, to take this visit together so that you can help negotiate all the tricky places of showering and sand and food stuff? It sounds like his older brother has it worked out how to negotiate grandma’s house without your assistance, but your 6 year old doesn’t. Could you just go this time knowing that you are possibly paving the way for future visits with more independence?

I have a personal theory that may not hold strong very long, but I’ve seen it inside my own family with my siblings and my parents and all the grandchildren. We are five siblings with 9 children. It seems that sometimes, with some issues, we kids who now have kids of our own will let our children have conflicts with our parents. It’s a sort of testing ground of how will it all go and a revisiting of old issues like how will my parents react to my kids behaving in a way that I would have gotten punished for as a child? I have to say it is pretty subtle, but it’s worth asking whether this may be the case. Could you somehow want your mother and your child to have a conflict and work it out to avoid working out some issue you may have with your mother? If so then perhaps it is worth intervening and being more direct with your mother and being more protective of your child. If that’s not it at all and you feel confident in their joyful relationship and that there is more loving fun between them than struggle, maybe it’s okay to let them work it out.

I guess what I am saying is that it is worth wondering about why you would let them sort it out on their own.

If he was going to “Get Air” (trampoline place) and they asked him to dunk his feet before he went jumping around, but you knew already he doesn’t like dunking his feet, would you drop him there to sort it out? Or would it just not be worth the drive because you already know that dunking his feet is too much right now and not worth the jumping? Or would you go in with him and help him figure a way to comply?

I don’t think asking our parents who did not come to unschooling of their own accord to take on these principles while being childcare providers is practical. It’s like going to “Get Air” and asking if you could not wear socks and eat on the trampolines and also could they have a bouncy house instead of trampolines.

Even if you needed the childcare and didn’t have other options at one time doesn’t mean that is the case today.
It makes sense that your 6 year old would still have some residual unpleasant feelings about that time having to be in their care because you were ill.

Maybe it’s okay if your mom is hurt because he doesn’t want to come because she insists on bathing. It gives also gives her an opportunity to decide if it is worth the visit to relax the have-to-bathe rule, while it gives your son a chance to decide if it’s worth the bath for the visit.

It might be sad for everyone if the choice is not to visit. It might just be this one time. It might bring up issues of whether or not you want to spend that much time with your parents, too.

My four year old is having conflicts with our 75 year old neighbor. They love each other, but he is reactive in a way that pushes her buttons. He sometimes wants to hit her when she jokes too hard with him. Then she says loudly “No Hitting!!”, he gets sad and embarrassed and doesn’t want to see her for a while. She gets sad and embarrassed and wants to figure out a way to work it out. I tell her that it will change as he gets older and they will find their way through this murky area. I don’t leave him in her care right now even though his older brothers negotiate with her just fine on their own and spend time with her without me. They just don’t know how to meet each other at this particular time. I do feel very confident that they will find their way through this and the friendship is worth this time and effort to negotiate the best for both of them right now.

Ann

amberuby@...

Would baby powder maybe be a compromise that both grandma and your son agree to? They sell towels pre-filled with baby powder (http://www.amazon.com/Sand-Off-Powder-Infused-Beach-All-natural-Removal/dp/B003MZVNTM) but applying it with your hands works just as well - gets lots of sand out - could be done in a changing room, or bathroom stall, perhaps, for privacy.

Sandra Dodd

I liked the rest of Ann’s post a lot, and it’s true that those who haven’t signed up for unschooling principles shouldn’t be asked to make exceptions to their beliefs and expectations in their own homes, mostly, generally.

This doesn’t seem right:


-=-My four year old is having conflicts with our 75 year old neighbor. They love each other, but he is reactive in a way that pushes her buttons. He sometimes wants to hit her when she jokes too hard with him. Then she says loudly “No Hitting!!”, he gets sad and embarrassed and doesn’t want to see her for a while. She gets sad and embarrassed and wants to figure out a way to work it out. I tell her that it will change as he gets older and they will find their way through this murky area-=-

-=-He sometimes wants to hit her…-=-

TELL HIM NOT TO!
He’s four. That’s old enough to say “don’t hit anyone who’s not play-fighting with you, or hurting you” or some such.

Say something that changes his mind about wanting to hit her, ever. Advise him to walk away if he doesn’t like her joking, or to ask her (nicely) not to tease him, maybe.

If he’s sad and embarrassed, that’s the very essence of natural consequences. He did something wrong, someone snapped at him, and he feels uncomfortable.

-=-I tell her that it will change as he gets older and they will find their way through this murky area—=-

I don’t think she should be put in a position to feel sad and embarrassed, especially if it’s happening in her house or yard (if; I don’t know if she’s at your house, which would be a little different). It doesn’t seem right that you should reassure her that they (she and your young child) will find their way through that murky area. Why is it murky? Why should she need to find her way through it?

If he has “wanted to hit her” more than once, don’t position yourself anywhere but between them. If he has actually hit her, spare the poor woman until he’s older or you’ve helped him find other things to do with his hands and with his frustration.

He won’t be four for long, and she’ll be 76. More fragile.

Sandra

Sarah Thompson

Last night, I took a bath. My 6yo was enjoying putting his hands in it, but he said it was hot and we were talking about how he likes the water cooler. After my bath I put a bucket in the tub with a few inches of lukewarm water so he could soak his feet. Then he put his hands in it, too. Then he leaned forward and put his face in! I said, "Do you want to take a bath, if it's this temperature?" He said he did. He filled the tub all the way with lukewarm water, got his toys, and put on his goggles. I asked him if it would be okay to shower at Grandma's beach if the water was nice and cool and he had goggles. He loved the idea!

Sarah

Asya Haikin

Sarah,
My son has had similar issues, and had stayed at the beach without showering. What I did was make sure he is completely dry before coming in, remove the bathing suit, and then just clean off the sand. It works pretty well. There may still be some sand in the hair, but it will not make the house sandy, only the bed.  Does he sleep with his grandma, or in his own bed? If in his own, may be you can discuss with her the process of cleaning him off without shower, and ask her to allow his bed to be a little sandy.

Asya

Ann Hedly Rousseau

Why is it murky? Why should she need to find her way through it?

It’s such a good question.

She doesn’t need to find her way through it so much as I do. If she were really only a sweet old lady we saw once and it was just me protecting her from my impulsive 4 year old that isn’t murky. 

I don’t see it as just one instance. We have been friends for 15 years and, for me, it’s worth smoothly getting through some uncomfortable moments for the bigger and longer relationship. The hard part isn’t unclarity about whether my son can hit someone, that’s not okay with me. She is asking me to explain why he gets angry and walks away, that’s the part that seems to bother her more. The fact that we see each other so frequently and are friends and neighbors who share so much makes this relationship harder for me to negotiate. It feels very much like a grandparent situation. The solution is not to avoid her, but to keep them both safe through this time that feels prickly and for me murky, because while it isn’t a grandparent, but it is a family relationship that will go on much longer than just a chance meeting. 

My neighbor teases him through a joking commentary on his behavior especially his youthful mishaps and he is very sensitive as the youngest child. 
Sometimes when we’ve been together and my son has been whiney, hungry and tired, she’ll comment “waa waa waa”. This can be at my house, at her house or outside. He spilled crumbs and she commented in a way that she never would have to an adult. She was play growling and making faces the instance when he raised his hand to hit; she was pretending to be vicious. I don’t know if he actually hit her as I was turned the other way, but he raised his arm and got a stern yell. Like you might to a dog. It was all fun and games and then instantly wasn’t. 

I don't think hitting is okay, but pushing someone until they want to hit, or are close to their edge or crying, isn't okay either.  I'm not out to change my neighbor, and I'm sure my son will find new ways of handling the teasing commentary. The older the children get it seems the less she teases them. My older two sons aren't as affected by her, or maybe she just doesn't do it as much with the older boys. It’s like she’s trying for connection and not knowing how to get it. I feel like I need to be there to negotiate their relationship. As my son gets older he will gain skills, but I can’t expect my neighbor to change this behavior. 

Maybe I could be more practiced at telling her “that’s enough”, but I’m not very good at being that direct. THAT feels murky to me. I guess I feel perplexed and judgmental about why someone would be so insensitive to a young person. I don’t want to offend her and risk all the good things we have by saying something that feels scolding, like “That’s Enough!” - oddly it would be much like me saying “No Hitting!” to her, loudly. 

It feels similar to the way siblings don’t mind pushing each others buttons to see how far they can go before a big reaction. 

I also see it sort of like someone who likes to play with cats and kisses them and plays a little rough but doesn’t understand when they fold back their ears and swish their tails and are about to strike. Then the person is offended and doesn’t know how it escalated from kissing the cat to a scratch. 

She seems to bring on the animosity then not understand why he leaves and won't speak to her for a while. I don't think an explanation of my personal theory to her will help. The idea of coaching her the way I coach my children in similar situations (watch how that cat’s tail is swishing) feels odd because she is an adult. I have avoided that. But I know a little time and an older child will help. 

It's like she thinks he is too sensitive. He should be able to handle the scrutiny maybe. When he walks away that's when she seems sad and embarrassed. But that's not her words they are my thoughts about what happened. She might be feeling something else entirely. She does seem like she wants to make it better when he walks away. That's also the murky part for me, that she looks to me to make it better; I say it just takes time, we can't make it better right this minute.

I also don’t want her to sound like a villain who goes around being mean to young children. She is wonderful and much more skilled with older children. She is adventurous and physically fit in a way many grandparents are not, we hike together and garden together, our dogs are best friends, she shares her art studio with my boys and she is a wonderful advocate for our children generally. She just doesn’t have the skills to connect with younger children. I’ve noticed this over the years and so haven’t left younger children in her care without me. 

Ahh. Now I know the murkiness is all about my unwillingness to be direct to her, an adult, the way I can easily be with my child. I expect her to be more thoughtful and skilled, yet she is not and I am disappointed. 

When do we be more direct? When do we wait it out? I may be taking the easy way out by just waiting until my son is older, but creating a potential conflict that could threaten all the good things doesn’t seem like a risk I want to take. 

Ann

Alex & Brian Polikowsky



If an adult is teasing my child to the point of crying and anger i would definitely first, not put my child in that situation, second tell the adult to stop.

It is not siblings pushing each other and even if it is I would intervene . I do it here when one of my kids is pushing the other. If it is welcome play between them they tell me BOTH that it is okay.

Sounds like your son is not getting a clear idea of what is appropriate and what is not. I would make sure to stop someone , either one, from those behaviors

And yes! Be clear, be direct, gentle, mindful of both. Prevent and distract. Do t let both of them flail. 

Maybe all you need is to say something to change her attention away from him. Don't wait too long. Probably keeping them fro
 Interacting is best. Even if they are in the same room.

Distract her attention the moment she focus on him.


Alex Polikowsky

Sent from my iPhone

On May 26, 2016, at 11:02 AM, Ann Hedly Rousseau annhedly@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

Why is it murky? Why should she need to find her way through it?

It’s such a good question.

She doesn’t need to find her way through it so much as I do. If she were really only a sweet old lady we saw once and it was just me protecting her from my impulsive 4 year old that isn’t murky. 

I don’t see it as just one instance. We have been friends for 15 years and, for me, it’s worth smoothly getting through some uncomfortable moments for the bigger and longer relationship. The hard part isn’t unclarity about whether my son can hit someone, that’s not okay with me. She is asking me to explain why he gets angry and walks away, that’s the part that seems to bother her more. The fact that we see each other so frequently and are friends and neighbors who share so much makes this relationship harder for me to negotiate. It feels very much like a grandparent situation. The solution is not to avoid her, but to keep them both safe through this time that feels prickly and for me murky, because while it isn’t a grandparent, but it is a family relationship that will go on much longer than just a chance meeting. 

My neighbor teases him through a joking commentary on his behavior especially his youthful mishaps and he is very sensitive as the youngest child. 
Sometimes when we’ve been together and my son has been whiney, hungry and tired, she’ll comment “waa waa waa”. This can be at my house, at her house or outside. He spilled crumbs and she commented in a way that she never would have to an adult. She was play growling and making faces the instance when he raised his hand to hit; she was pretending to be vicious. I don’t know if he actually hit her as I was turned the other way, but he raised his arm and got a stern yell. Like you might to a dog. It was all fun and games and then instantly wasn’t. 

I don't think hitting is okay, but pushing someone until they want to hit, or are close to their edge or crying, isn't okay either.  I'm not out to change my neighbor, and I'm sure my son will find new ways of handling the teasing commentary. The older the children get it seems the less she teases them. My older two sons aren't as affected by her, or maybe she just doesn't do it as much with the older boys. It’s like she’s trying for connection and not knowing how to get it. I feel like I need to be there to negotiate their relationship. As my son gets older he will gain skills, but I can’t expect my neighbor to change this behavior. 

Maybe I could be more practiced at telling her “that’s enough”, but I’m not very good at being that direct. THAT feels murky to me. I guess I feel perplexed and judgmental about why someone would be so insensitive to a young person. I don’t want to offend her and risk all the good things we have by saying something that feels scolding, like “That’s Enough!” - oddly it would be much like me saying “No Hitting!” to her, loudly. 

It feels similar to the way siblings don’t mind pushing each others buttons to see how far they can go before a big reaction. 

I also see it sort of like someone who likes to play with cats and kisses them and plays a little rough but doesn’t understand when they fold back their ears and swish their tails and are about to strike. Then the person is offended and doesn’t know how it escalated from kissing the cat to a scratch. 

She seems to bring on the animosity then not understand why he leaves and won't speak to her for a while. I don't think an explanation of my personal theory to her will help. The idea of coaching her the way I coach my children in similar situations (watch how that cat’s tail is swishing) feels odd because she is an adult. I have avoided that. But I know a little time and an older child will help. 

It's like she thinks he is too sensitive. He should be able to handle the scrutiny maybe. When he walks away that's when she seems sad and embarrassed. But that's not her words they are my thoughts about what happened. She might be feeling something else entirely. She does seem like she wants to make it better when he walks away. That's also the murky part for me, that she looks to me to make it better; I say it just takes time, we can't make it better right this minute.

I also don’t want her to sound like a villain who goes around being mean to young children. She is wonderful and much more skilled with older children. She is adventurous and physically fit in a way many grandparents are not, we hike together and garden together, our dogs are best friends, she shares her art studio with my boys and she is a wonderful advocate for our children generally. She just doesn’t have the skills to connect with younger children. I’ve noticed this over the years and so haven’t left younger children in her care without me. 

Ahh. Now I know the murkiness is all about my unwillingness to be direct to her, an adult, the way I can easily be with my child. I expect her to be more thoughtful and skilled, yet she is not and I am disappointed. 

When do we be more direct? When do we wait it out? I may be taking the easy way out by just waiting until my son is older, but creating a potential conflict that could threaten all the good things doesn’t seem like a risk I want to take. 

Ann

semajrak@...

**I'm not out to change my neighbor, and I'm sure my son will find new ways of handling the teasing commentary.**

I wouldn't wait for your son to find ways to handle the teasing.  While you are trying to not damage your relationship with your neighbour, you could be eroding the trust your son has in you by not speaking up for him.  I've told two family members that Ethan doesn't like teasing.  He used to be very literal, and didn't understand sarcasm.  Then he fell in love with Garfield comics and started to understand the way it works, but he also gets (better than many adults) that it's only funny if everyone involved is okay with that kind of humour.

Maybe smile and say to your neighbour "My son doesn't like the teasing."  Being direct doesn't need to mean being unkind or confrontational.  It can be delivered just like any information.  "My son doesn't like mushrooms on his pizza" kind of thing.  

Karen James

Sandra Dodd

-=-I don't think hitting is okay, but pushing someone until they want to hit, or are close to their edge or crying, isn't okay either. I'm not out to change my neighbor, and I'm sure my son will find new ways of handling the teasing commentary. -=-

I would stay right there, nor not leave him with her, until he’s older.

Things aren’t going well, and regardless of your neighbor’s relationship with you, it’s not her duty to interat with your child to your specifications.

-=-I also see it sort of like someone who likes to play with cats and kisses them and plays a little rough but doesn’t understand when they fold back their ears and swish their tails and are about to strike. Then the person is offended and doesn’t know how it escalated from kissing the cat to a scratch. -=-

Before the cat scratches, take the cat away.
Seeing this as an analogy to what’s happening between your child and another person sounds to me like you’re not clear on WHY a mom should keep a child safe (and a cat safe, and a neighbor safe). You don’t need to make a big deal or make a speech. Just pick the kitten up and say “She doesn’t like that,” and smile and ask if someone wants some tea.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-When do we be more direct? When do we wait it out? I may be taking the easy way out by just waiting until my son is older, but creating a potential conflict that could threaten all the good things doesn’t seem like a risk I want to take. -=-

TAKE THE EASY WAY!!!

Not “the easy out.” Make people’s live easy. Don’t think there’s virtue in allowing difficulties to continue.

Make his life easier, if you can do it in some simple way. Make your neighbor’s life easier by waiting until he’s old enough that she can interact with him better. You said she interacts will with older kids. Make his life and yours easier by doing other things with him for now and not leaving him with ANYONE for any reason who isn’t sweet and gentle and kind to him.

-=-I may be taking the easy way out-=-

That implies that there is an “in” to take him “out of.”
His “in” should be with you.

http://sandradodd.com/nest
Create a safe nest. If he’s too little to leave the nest alone, you’re wrong to set him outside of it. He will leave on his own when he’s older and more competent.

http://sandradodd.com/phrasees

“Take the easy way out” isn’t a phrase you made up. It came from inside you. Maybe when you were younger you heard that you shouldn’t take the easy way out.

Sandra