minimalism encouraging creativity?
amberuby@...
An acquaintance recently told me she only lets her 4 y.o. daughter have minimal toys, and that she yearns to move into a smaller home in order to have even less (this did not seem to be a lack of resources issue).
I replied with how I'm aiming for abundance.
She then said that when she took toys away, her daughter became very creative in making her own toys.
I was caught off guard and mumbled something about parents making a value judgment and left it at that.
Since that conversation, I've gone back to Sandra's site to read many of the wonderful pages about abundance, generosity begetting generosity, having fun and I feel good about all of that.
However, I feel like I might need some help taking apart this concept of how making ones own toys is somehow more creative (and hence superior?) to the creativity that comes from playing with toys already made.
Many thanks,
Amber
Sandra Dodd
I like that question. Instead of leaning over and looking very closely at toys and their attributes, or at your child and your friend’s child, lean way, way back and look at human culture and history.
Who lives without posessions?
Monks. Nuns. Christian, Buddhist… are there others? They do that so that they can concentrate on spirituality. They often augment the lack of possessions with silence, small meals, hard work.
Who else?
Prisoners.
Prisons might encourage spirituality to keep people busy and peaceful, but many prisoners become creative at making weapons from toothbrushes and spoons.
Then look at traditions and attiitudes involving children. Depriving and limiting children is a virtue praised among adults. There is a ton of detritus in our culture and in our language about child-shaming. Dunce caps. Little stools for making kids sit in corners. Contraptions boys used to be made to wear to bed so they wouldn’t touch themselves at night.
What about more modern “enlightened” things? “Consequences” (as code for punishment in parents who don’t like to think of themselves as punishing). Depriving children of options, “screentime,” playtime, noise-making opportunities. Still, in many families “children should be seen and not heard” applies.
Children will play with SOMEthing, if they don’t have toys, because it’s natural for children to play. They could play with kitchen utensils (nicer knives than those made in prison), decks of cards, poker chips, cloth, dirt—my mom and her brothers used to play with snuff bottles in the dirt in West Texas, pretending the snuff bottles were cars. She used to remind us sometimes, when we wanted more toys and she wanted to shame us for not playing with…. Honestly, I’ve never even seen a snuff bottle. How long since people dipped snuff!? But she was buying cigarettes, coffee (it wasn’t cheap) and beer.
I kinda wonder whether your friend intends to deprive herself, too. Not of a new house, appaerently. Will she use cheaper clothes, and be more creative? Less makeup or hair/nails stuff? Maybe she’s not using any anyway, so that wouldn’t apply.
It would be creative if all those folks who spend so much money at Starbucks would make their own coffee at home, and I don’t mean with a Keurig outfitt. :-)
The world IS changing. I have a house full of music (records, tapes, CDs) and books, and board games and card games, some in boxes way bigger than they needed to be, and they take up space. I have tapes and DVDs of movies. The time is already here that people can have all of those things (music, games, movies, books) in small computers, or accessed by a teensy box attached to a TV. Small apartments, small houses, will make increasing sense.
The chat next Thursday will be about abundance and finances. The subscriptons seem not to be working, at that blog, still.
http://chatnotes-unschooling.blogspot.com/2016/02/abundance-finances-february-11.html
I might have veered away from the original question or from what you wanted to know, but I hope others here will hit it more directly. :-)
Let your friend do what she’s doing. Maybe invite her daughter over to play with toys! Be as sweet and positive with all involved as you can be.
Sandra
Who lives without posessions?
Monks. Nuns. Christian, Buddhist… are there others? They do that so that they can concentrate on spirituality. They often augment the lack of possessions with silence, small meals, hard work.
Who else?
Prisoners.
Prisons might encourage spirituality to keep people busy and peaceful, but many prisoners become creative at making weapons from toothbrushes and spoons.
Then look at traditions and attiitudes involving children. Depriving and limiting children is a virtue praised among adults. There is a ton of detritus in our culture and in our language about child-shaming. Dunce caps. Little stools for making kids sit in corners. Contraptions boys used to be made to wear to bed so they wouldn’t touch themselves at night.
What about more modern “enlightened” things? “Consequences” (as code for punishment in parents who don’t like to think of themselves as punishing). Depriving children of options, “screentime,” playtime, noise-making opportunities. Still, in many families “children should be seen and not heard” applies.
Children will play with SOMEthing, if they don’t have toys, because it’s natural for children to play. They could play with kitchen utensils (nicer knives than those made in prison), decks of cards, poker chips, cloth, dirt—my mom and her brothers used to play with snuff bottles in the dirt in West Texas, pretending the snuff bottles were cars. She used to remind us sometimes, when we wanted more toys and she wanted to shame us for not playing with…. Honestly, I’ve never even seen a snuff bottle. How long since people dipped snuff!? But she was buying cigarettes, coffee (it wasn’t cheap) and beer.
I kinda wonder whether your friend intends to deprive herself, too. Not of a new house, appaerently. Will she use cheaper clothes, and be more creative? Less makeup or hair/nails stuff? Maybe she’s not using any anyway, so that wouldn’t apply.
It would be creative if all those folks who spend so much money at Starbucks would make their own coffee at home, and I don’t mean with a Keurig outfitt. :-)
The world IS changing. I have a house full of music (records, tapes, CDs) and books, and board games and card games, some in boxes way bigger than they needed to be, and they take up space. I have tapes and DVDs of movies. The time is already here that people can have all of those things (music, games, movies, books) in small computers, or accessed by a teensy box attached to a TV. Small apartments, small houses, will make increasing sense.
The chat next Thursday will be about abundance and finances. The subscriptons seem not to be working, at that blog, still.
http://chatnotes-unschooling.blogspot.com/2016/02/abundance-finances-february-11.html
I might have veered away from the original question or from what you wanted to know, but I hope others here will hit it more directly. :-)
Let your friend do what she’s doing. Maybe invite her daughter over to play with toys! Be as sweet and positive with all involved as you can be.
Sandra
Alex & Brian Polikowsky
Even kids that have an abundance of toys will make toys!!
One of the most adorable art drawings I have it is a stick figure doll ( Princess), then cut out, that my son made for his younger sister at about 4 or 5. He also made a couple skirt/dresses to dress her up.
I know kids that make Cosplay! I am helping my son make some things right now that he is creating.
My daughter has picked up gravel rocks stuck together and noticed it looked like an animal and played with it!
I have seen kids build forts and houses of all kinds of things from sticks in the woods to blanket forts! Those are made up toys!
Sometimes more is more!!! More to explore, more to find out, more to play with and learn from. More connections. More inspiration.
I know Unschoolers that create games inside games. That is making "toys".
My son once created a board game with rules and such. I saved it! We played a few times but it was hard to win!
So yeah he created a toy even thou he was surrounded by lots of video games and board games , and all kids of toys!
Having toys in abundance does not stop creativity. It fuels it. A child will still create toys.
A child creating toys because she does not have much is a child without choice. There is a need and she is trying to fill that need.
Very different scenarios.
Alex Polikowsky
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 5, 2016, at 9:38 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
I like that question. Instead of leaning over and looking very closely at toys and their attributes, or at your child and your friend’s child, lean way, way back and look at human culture and history.
Who lives without posessions?
Monks. Nuns. Christian, Buddhist… are there others? They do that so that they can concentrate on spirituality. They often augment the lack of possessions with silence, small meals, hard work.
Who else?
Prisoners.
Prisons might encourage spirituality to keep people busy and peaceful, but many prisoners become creative at making weapons from toothbrushes and spoons.
Then look at traditions and attiitudes involving children. Depriving and limiting children is a virtue praised among adults. There is a ton of detritus in our culture and in our language about child-shaming. Dunce caps. Little stools for making kids sit in corners. Contraptions boys used to be made to wear to bed so they wouldn’t touch themselves at night.
What about more modern “enlightened” things? “Consequences” (as code for punishment in parents who don’t like to think of themselves as punishing). Depriving children of options, “screentime,” playtime, noise-making opportunities. Still, in many families “children should be seen and not heard” applies.
Children will play with SOMEthing, if they don’t have toys, because it’s natural for children to play. They could play with kitchen utensils (nicer knives than those made in prison), decks of cards, poker chips, cloth, dirt—my mom and her brothers used to play with snuff bottles in the dirt in West Texas, pretending the snuff bottles were cars. She used to remind us sometimes, when we wanted more toys and she wanted to shame us for not playing with…. Honestly, I’ve never even seen a snuff bottle. How long since people dipped snuff!? But she was buying cigarettes, coffee (it wasn’t cheap) and beer.
I kinda wonder whether your friend intends to deprive herself, too. Not of a new house, appaerently. Will she use cheaper clothes, and be more creative? Less makeup or hair/nails stuff? Maybe she’s not using any anyway, so that wouldn’t apply.
It would be creative if all those folks who spend so much money at Starbucks would make their own coffee at home, and I don’t mean with a Keurig outfitt. :-)
The world IS changing. I have a house full of music (records, tapes, CDs) and books, and board games and card games, some in boxes way bigger than they needed to be, and they take up space. I have tapes and DVDs of movies. The time is already here that people can have all of those things (music, games, movies, books) in small computers, or accessed by a teensy box attached to a TV. Small apartments, small houses, will make increasing sense.
The chat next Thursday will be about abundance and finances. The subscriptons seem not to be working, at that blog, still.
http://chatnotes-unschooling.blogspot.com/2016/02/abundance-finances-february-11.html
I might have veered away from the original question or from what you wanted to know, but I hope others here will hit it more directly. :-)
Let your friend do what she’s doing. Maybe invite her daughter over to play with toys! Be as sweet and positive with all involved as you can be.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
Found this in Just Add Light and Stir, and it’s great for this question!
____________________________________________________________
Joyce Fetteroll, in response to someone wondering whether boredom or deprivation would increase curiosity:
Einstein and Ferrari and e.e. cummings and Steve Jobs didn't build from sticks and stones. They built off of what others had created before. Kids shouldn't have to be made to reinvent story telling because their parents aren't engaged enough to understand what's happening with the Barbies and the Pokemon.
Clare Kirkpatrick
My seven year old has loads of barbies and a barbie camper van and house. She has more toys than any of my older three had at her age because of 'inheriting' them from her older sisters. I also think she's the most creative in her play than her older sisters. She makes food and clothes for her barbies from playdough and fimo. She designed and made a bed with her grandad from wood for her favourite soft toy. She comes up with the most amazing ideas for how her games with her dolls will go, often mixing in other toys with her play as she thinks of new ideas. She currently has a transgender Action (wo)Man doll wearing a dress meant for an Angelina Ballerina soft toy!
I simply think that the whole 'toys make children less creative' idea is a myth. The same with the 'screens make children less creative' myth. My children all find numerous, fascinating ideas on YouTube - from hula-hooping to special effects make-up artistry.
I think the flourishing of creativity and imagination is more about living in an environment where your ideas are valued and where you receive loving and respectful help to manifest those ideas than it is about scarcity and restriction.
Clare
sukaynalabboun@...
It seems to be a current trend, where if you love your kids, you limit "screentime", eat "clean" and only have minimal, natural toys.
We had a mix. I used to have some limits on some foods, and tv/video games, but we never just blacklisted these things. My kids have always been super creative with bits of what we have laying around, and I have been really amazed and impressed many, many times with their ingenuity and creativity. They have used our clothes, hanger hooks, kitchen chairs and coffee beans in parts of pirate dress up :-) other times they went out walking in the forest behind the house for items to mix with our toys/kitchen stuff for playing apothecary and Harry Potter.
Having all those things (baby toys,plastic and wood, electronics, lots of clothes and things) never, ever seemed a hindrance but rather a bonus. Now that they are older, they have actually thanked me for keeping their stuff and finding a way to store it when they weren't ready to get rid of it. They have also expressed how sad they are when they see little kids without much stuff.....My eldest said, not too long ago, "Thank you for letting the house be messy. This comfortable lived in messy- where you know the people are real and are living. Not a stale museum house, a home"
Abundance. Variety. The feeling of having had a place to explore and create, without being judged negatively. I am about as "granola" as they come, but thankfully, my husband kept sweetly saying that those preferences were mine, not my kids, and they should have the things they want, their taste counted. Oddly, my youngest just found her old nintendo gameboy when moving and we bought a new charger (we have computers, ipads, ps2, xbox) so that has been the hot item this last week....along with memories of playing these games so long ago. I am really glad for first, my husband pushing my limits with control, and eventually, finding unschooling to help me see that all these labels and limitations were not helping make the wonderful memories and experiences I was looking for. My older kids are playful, generous and kind. I am very pleased :-)
sukaynalabboun@...
It seems to be a current trend, the whole minimal, 'natural', 'clean eating', no 'screentime' package.
--
I am as granola as they come ;-) and yet, even before we were unschooling, my husband told me that my preferences should not extend into controlling and lessening our childrens lives. He said so sweetly, and over a period of time, but he did strongly advocate on their behalf, in terms of allowing their wishes to be met when we could, and in spite of my (then, not now) very political 'anti' type of beliefs.
We ended up having a mix of plastic toys and wooden ones, corporate sponsored ones and not, few restrictions on food and games. Obviously, we have really loosened up after unschooling, but even before, he had made me aware of the need to allow them to choose their own toys and decorations, interests and food choices. He had grown up with a " whatever tastes good, whatever you are craving is the healthy food for you" mentality. That helped.
My kids have used a mash up of many different things in their creative play, over the years. (Sometimes, using coat hangers, old clothes, kitchen chairs and coffee beans for pirate play- or hiking in the forest behind the house to gather supplies for apothecary/Harry Potter, combined with kitchen supplies and other old clothes. Often, the play was inspired by many different things-media online or the tv, books, our outings and knowing what we have laying around. Instead of spoiling their ability to think creatively, their imagination or problem solving skills, abundance and variety have enabled those things. My limitations (early on) would have probably led us to another place, almost surely). My older kids have recently told he how grateful they are that I allowed their clutter and messy play (still do!). My oldest daughter recently phrased it as allowing real life to happen, a mess that makes the difference between a house and a home. We clean and I also allow ongoing projects to linger....they have said they appreciate my willingness to make a space for their stuff, as long as is necessary.
Oddly, we were unpacking after moving this last week and my youngest found her nintendo gameboy. I bought a new charger and they have been playing all their old games throughout the week, remembering. I remember when my husband brought those home, she was two!, and I was terrified of what would happen to my three sweet girls with those games in the house. I am so glad he helped me then, and also that I resisted the urge to purge when the PS2,xbox, ipads and laptops came along. I briefly mentioned what I am reading to the kids, and they wanted to say that among their peers, the neediest and most desperate for "stuff" are the ones who have been the most limited/deprived at home. (This is their analysis, and they don't read these unschooling posts ever). Far from ruining our lives, abundant variety and seeking joy have made them rich and fulfilling, and I have children who are at once creative, passionate, imaginative, helpful, generous, well mannered and kind.Their cups are full, and I am so pleased!
--
Pam Sorooshian
There is a basis to the idea that constraints encourage creative thinking and one kind of constraint can be a limit to the types or quantities of physical objects available to work with but this isn't a good reason to deny toys and materials to a child, because having lots of things ALSO encourages creativity.
Having lots of things gives lots of starting points and lots of ways of combining things in new and different ways.
Having constraints can preclude doing something in the same old way and can encourage coming up with new ideas.
So - as a fun game - you can challenge yourself or an interested kid to draw a house with no straight lines. That's an example of constraints encouraging creativity and not ending up with the same old square house, triangle roof, and square windows and a chimney! Or try drawing flowers with ONLY straight lines.
I think this idea of limiting the things a kid has to encourage creativity is taking a useful idea way way way too far.
For people like me - I was always very overwhelmed and paralyzed at the idea of creating something - starting by narrowing focus (implementing my own constraints) is one of the secrets that more creative people knew that I didn't so it is worth sharing with kids under the right circumstances.
It is also a way of helping a frustrated kid. Sometimes my kids wanted to "make a dress" but they'd get quickly frustrated by being overwhelmed with all the options for how to do it, what to use, etc. The kind of suggestion that helped the most was often a question/suggestion: "What do you want to make it out of?" Once they had chosen some material to work with, the next ideas came easier and easier.
Pam
Having lots of things gives lots of starting points and lots of ways of combining things in new and different ways.
Having constraints can preclude doing something in the same old way and can encourage coming up with new ideas.
So - as a fun game - you can challenge yourself or an interested kid to draw a house with no straight lines. That's an example of constraints encouraging creativity and not ending up with the same old square house, triangle roof, and square windows and a chimney! Or try drawing flowers with ONLY straight lines.
I think this idea of limiting the things a kid has to encourage creativity is taking a useful idea way way way too far.
For people like me - I was always very overwhelmed and paralyzed at the idea of creating something - starting by narrowing focus (implementing my own constraints) is one of the secrets that more creative people knew that I didn't so it is worth sharing with kids under the right circumstances.
It is also a way of helping a frustrated kid. Sometimes my kids wanted to "make a dress" but they'd get quickly frustrated by being overwhelmed with all the options for how to do it, what to use, etc. The kind of suggestion that helped the most was often a question/suggestion: "What do you want to make it out of?" Once they had chosen some material to work with, the next ideas came easier and easier.
Pam
On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 9:18 AM Clare Kirkpatrick claremkirkpatrick@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
My seven year old has loads of barbies and a barbie camper van and house. She has more toys than any of my older three had at her age because of 'inheriting' them from her older sisters. I also think she's the most creative in her play than her older sisters. She makes food and clothes for her barbies from playdough and fimo. She designed and made a bed with her grandad from wood for her favourite soft toy. She comes up with the most amazing ideas for how her games with her dolls will go, often mixing in other toys with her play as she thinks of new ideas. She currently has a transgender Action (wo)Man doll wearing a dress meant for an Angelina Ballerina soft toy!
I simply think that the whole 'toys make children less creative' idea is a myth. The same with the 'screens make children less creative' myth. My children all find numerous, fascinating ideas on YouTube - from hula-hooping to special effects make-up artistry.
I think the flourishing of creativity and imagination is more about living in an environment where your ideas are valued and where you receive loving and respectful help to manifest those ideas than it is about scarcity and restriction.
Clare
Sandra Dodd
I’m sorry two posts very similar came through. I was trying to figure out to let one through and stop the other one.
Marinella Abbondati
I used to work as a producer, making audio-visual advertising stuff. Lots of our clients were creative advertising agencies and it was always fun to go to meetings in their offices. Those places were kitted out with all sorts of toys, TVs, video games, areas for creatives to play ping pong, arcade machines... And cappuccino machines and yummy snacks everywhere. They could pretty much ask for whatever they wanted (within certain budget restraints I guess.) The whole idea was that shiny toys and games and play and abundance and fun fuelled the creativity of these adults.
(Isn't google also famous for it's fantasy playground office campuses?)
In the meetings we would drink coffee and eat doughnuts and fruit and biscuits, and we'd laugh and have fun and take ideas for walks. Often the creatives would reference all the toys and cartoons and video games that they'd loved as kids - all these things continued to inspire them well into adulthood.
Outside meetings, when we'd small-talk about family and such like, some of those same advertising creatives would share ideas about raising their children. This idea of restricting toys, and screens etc in order to "fuel their children's creativity" was really prevalent. Restricting sugar and many other "bad" foods was pretty much considered a duty. As others have said, it was/is sort of the "trendy" way to parent.
Not all of those people thought like that but quite a few. I pretty much agreed with them. I didn't have children then.
It wasn't till I had my own child and discovered unschooling that I saw the irony and questioned the double standard.
We may not actually end up unschooling for various complicated reasons but whatever happens, I aim to keep trying to make my son's life as shiny and playful and abundant and delicious as those offices.
An acquaintance recently told me she only lets her 4 y.o. daughter have minimal toys, and that she yearns to move into a smaller home in order to have even less (this did not seem to be a lack of resources issue).
I replied with how I'm aiming for abundance.
She then said that when she took toys away, her daughter became very creative in making her own toys.
I was caught off guard and mumbled something about parents making a value judgment and left it at that.
Since that conversation, I've gone back to Sandra's site to read many of the wonderful pages about abundance, generosity begetting generosity, having fun and I feel good about all of that.
However, I feel like I might need some help taking apart this concept of how making ones own toys is somehow more creative (and hence superior?) to the creativity that comes from playing with toys alre ady made .
Many thanks,
Amber
Sandra Dodd
-=-Outside meetings, when we'd small-talk about family and such like, some of those same advertising creatives would share ideas about raising their children. This idea of restricting toys, and screens etc in order to "fuel their children's creativity" was really prevalent. Restricting sugar and many other "bad" foods was pretty much considered a duty. As others have said, it was/is sort of the "trendy" way to parent. -=-
Ooooh…. I did not expect your story to go that direction.
I met my future husband in the Society for Creative Anachronism in 1977. We’ve been together ever since, and much of the time involved intense SCA activity. I’ve been a corporate-level (international) officer three times, lots of times regional, very involved. I wandered away about seven years ago, but Keith and Marty are still very active.
One of the things I had always liked best about the SCA was that (especially in earlier years) anyone, just about any age, could do anything in the group. Learning was all voluntary. People offered workshops or led music groups or taught calligraphy just because they loved it, and for free. People helped other people make costumes, armor, tents, for FUN! Learning was everywhere, and constant.
Once when a disgruntled former board member and his college friend who had become a lawyer decided to sue the SCA (for the hell of it—so the lawyer could have a case with his name on it and… anyway, they did), I knew them both, and I was the corporate president, just stepping down. I was named by name (with others). One of the LAMEST complaints EVER WRITTEN was that we were a 501(c)(3) non-profit educational organization (it has to do with American tax law and the way funds are handled), but we didn’t teach classes to the public and there should be people in classrooms with notebook, not out feasting and dancing.
I could go on about that, but the notes I left for our defense included lists of all the types of activities in local groups (there were 600+ of them then, and more now), that personal research and investigative learning were legitimate educational methods, and that boy scouts don’t go out into the community and teach strangers to camp and to build fires, but help boys who want to join. The group existed for its members; membership is easily obtained (at that time, it was $20 a year).
Time passed. Keith and I got married and had children.
After I was already writing about unschooling and speaking at conferences, someone I didn’t know started a yahoo groups discussion about SCA families who were homeschooling. COOOL!!!! Keith and I joined it right away. But Keith and I were not popular there, and our ideas were unwelcome. People who weren’t even homeschooling yet, just in the fantasy or planning phase or their chidren were too young, or they had just begun were SURE that the way to go was
jeez, I’m getting cranky just telling the story. Seriously. So horrible.
Some wanted to use a regular state curriculum, but put more focus on the Middle Ages and use medieval arts and crafts.
Some wanted to do classical education, with roots in Greece, Rome and mostly the Renaissance (and later) with the trivium and quadrivium.
I could go on about that.
The thing is, they seemed to want to use their children as props and players in their re-creation of a historical activity—teaching in a historical way.
When I wrote the same defenses I had made to the lawsuit (which had been dismissed and never even heard, at the time, though it cost us money for a lawyer) to that discussion, they were NOT receptive at all. The people who created the group wanted to be praised for their child-abusing crap.
Now, of course, I wish I had gathered names, and checked back to see if any got very far with it, and how their beliefs changed (or whether their kids ended up in school). But I didn’t.
It’s another shocking example of the parents doing something educationally cool, and not having the glimmer of the philosophical ability to expand that into their larger life and understanding of how learning works.
So Keith and I dropped out, and never heard of or about that group again.
I do know one SCA family that unschooled (by their definition; not much or very broadly by my own, though I still know the dad and like him fine). I didn’t know they were doing it, though, until I saw him interviewed in the same study on electronic media use in unschooling families done by a grad student at MIT a dozen years ago.
SO MUCH LEARNING, so painlessly fun and easy, and then the parents turn around and design or buy a curriculum for the kids, who will be too busy with school work to be playing SCA with the parents.
Sandra
Ooooh…. I did not expect your story to go that direction.
I met my future husband in the Society for Creative Anachronism in 1977. We’ve been together ever since, and much of the time involved intense SCA activity. I’ve been a corporate-level (international) officer three times, lots of times regional, very involved. I wandered away about seven years ago, but Keith and Marty are still very active.
One of the things I had always liked best about the SCA was that (especially in earlier years) anyone, just about any age, could do anything in the group. Learning was all voluntary. People offered workshops or led music groups or taught calligraphy just because they loved it, and for free. People helped other people make costumes, armor, tents, for FUN! Learning was everywhere, and constant.
Once when a disgruntled former board member and his college friend who had become a lawyer decided to sue the SCA (for the hell of it—so the lawyer could have a case with his name on it and… anyway, they did), I knew them both, and I was the corporate president, just stepping down. I was named by name (with others). One of the LAMEST complaints EVER WRITTEN was that we were a 501(c)(3) non-profit educational organization (it has to do with American tax law and the way funds are handled), but we didn’t teach classes to the public and there should be people in classrooms with notebook, not out feasting and dancing.
I could go on about that, but the notes I left for our defense included lists of all the types of activities in local groups (there were 600+ of them then, and more now), that personal research and investigative learning were legitimate educational methods, and that boy scouts don’t go out into the community and teach strangers to camp and to build fires, but help boys who want to join. The group existed for its members; membership is easily obtained (at that time, it was $20 a year).
Time passed. Keith and I got married and had children.
After I was already writing about unschooling and speaking at conferences, someone I didn’t know started a yahoo groups discussion about SCA families who were homeschooling. COOOL!!!! Keith and I joined it right away. But Keith and I were not popular there, and our ideas were unwelcome. People who weren’t even homeschooling yet, just in the fantasy or planning phase or their chidren were too young, or they had just begun were SURE that the way to go was
jeez, I’m getting cranky just telling the story. Seriously. So horrible.
Some wanted to use a regular state curriculum, but put more focus on the Middle Ages and use medieval arts and crafts.
Some wanted to do classical education, with roots in Greece, Rome and mostly the Renaissance (and later) with the trivium and quadrivium.
I could go on about that.
The thing is, they seemed to want to use their children as props and players in their re-creation of a historical activity—teaching in a historical way.
When I wrote the same defenses I had made to the lawsuit (which had been dismissed and never even heard, at the time, though it cost us money for a lawyer) to that discussion, they were NOT receptive at all. The people who created the group wanted to be praised for their child-abusing crap.
Now, of course, I wish I had gathered names, and checked back to see if any got very far with it, and how their beliefs changed (or whether their kids ended up in school). But I didn’t.
It’s another shocking example of the parents doing something educationally cool, and not having the glimmer of the philosophical ability to expand that into their larger life and understanding of how learning works.
So Keith and I dropped out, and never heard of or about that group again.
I do know one SCA family that unschooled (by their definition; not much or very broadly by my own, though I still know the dad and like him fine). I didn’t know they were doing it, though, until I saw him interviewed in the same study on electronic media use in unschooling families done by a grad student at MIT a dozen years ago.
SO MUCH LEARNING, so painlessly fun and easy, and then the parents turn around and design or buy a curriculum for the kids, who will be too busy with school work to be playing SCA with the parents.
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
> On Feb 5, 2016, at 10:05 PM, amberuby@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:If a child turns sticks and stones into a doll family, that looks very creative. If a child turns dolls into a doll family, that looks uncreative.
>
> I might need some help taking apart this concept of how making
> ones own toys is somehow more creative (and hence superior?)
> to the creativity that comes from playing with toys already made.
The creativity of the first is obvious. But it comes from desperation not a desire to be creative.
To see the creativity in the second a parent needs to listen to the child's story telling. Apparently seeing obvious creativity in a glance is , they can feel satisfied they've done their part to nurture it.
In the old days, part of training to be an artist was copying the works of masters. An artist can't build on what's been done before if they haven't played with what's been done. If artists couldn't see the work of other artists they'd still be doing cave paintings.
It's the same with a child. Creating toys to play with is only a small part of a child's play. It's the equivalent of making brushes, paints and surfaces to paint on. The real creativity is what the child does with them.
My mother-in-law, who wasn't artistic, believed coloring books were bad for creativity. So she had only blank paper and crayons for her kids. That *sounds* like it make sense. But as an artistic kid, I found coloring books allowed me to play with color without worrying about form. I could also critique others' form and composition.
Joyce
Whatis Myusername
Wow, Pam, exactly how I felt but couldn't express so clearly and simply.
We have experienced both worlds.
When we lived in Dallas with a big house and access to all the stores and Amazon, we had a room full of toys, art supplies and things.
Now, we kind of live off 2-3 pieces of suitcase with our nomadic lifestyle, we have much fewer toys and things, mainly because we don't have access to shopping for more. Shipping to France is slow, not many stores in the town I am living in and things are way more expensive in Europe. The good news is that with Internet and devices, there are still abundant material to fuel our creativity. Also our focus is more outdoor right now: skiing and playing outside take up more of our time, also the travels provide the stimulations to compensate having little possession at this moment.
As adult or child, we need inspirations, stimulations and material to work with in order to feed our curiosity and creativities.
Also growing up in China let me experience the "ideal" world some people fantasized. I had no toys. I made most of my toys out of sticks and mud. I played with insects and spent most of my time outside. Sounds "ideal'? No, it was more out of necessity and desperation. I wish I had what my children experience today.
In order to nurture the creativity it is important to give our children the time, the space, the inspirations and the material. And it is important to value their interests.
I am living a minimalism lifestyle right now and loving it. It is shifting my resources of owning and managing "privately and individually" owned things to having access to those things by visiting museums, libraries (in France, libraries have toys and games), online resources and by travel. My children's interests shift from "many things" to "a few things" which I don't limit but do point out size and weight are a consideration. Constraints are fun to play with. It does change our perspectives and push our creativities sometimes.
Minimalism or not is not a big issue. But the mentality and motivation are. The purpose behind minimalism to create a richer life is not limiting. But removing exposure and stimulations from a child's life is limiting.
My two cents
Joy (Jihong)
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 6, 2016, at 7:32 PM, Pam Sorooshian pamsoroosh@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
There is a basis to the idea that constraints encourage creative thinking and one kind of constraint can be a limit to the types or quantities of physical objects available to work with but this isn't a good reason to deny toys and materials to a child, because having lots of things ALSO encourages creativity.
Having lots of things gives lots of starting points and lots of ways of combining things in new and different ways.
Having constraints can preclude doing something in the same old way and can encourage coming up with new ideas.
So - as a fun game - you can challenge yourself or an interested kid to draw a house with no straight lines. That's an example of constraints encouraging creativity and not ending up with the same old square house, triangle roof, and square windows and a chimney! Or try drawing flowers with ONLY straight lines.
I think this idea of limiting the things a kid has to encourage creativity is taking a useful idea way way way too far.
For people like me - I was always very overwhelmed and paralyzed at the idea of creating something - starting by narrowing focus (implementing my own constraints) is one of the secrets that more creative people knew that I didn't so it is worth sharing with kids under the right circumstances.
It is also a way of helping a frustrated kid. Sometimes my kids wanted to "make a dress" but they'd get quickly frustrated by being overwhelmed with all the options for how to do it, what to use, etc. The kind of suggestion that helped the most was often a question/suggestion: "What do you want to make it out of?" Once they had chosen some material to work with, the next ideas came easier and easier.
PamOn Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 9:18 AM Clare Kirkpatrick claremkirkpatrick@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
My seven year old has loads of barbies and a barbie camper van and house. She has more toys than any of my older three had at her age because of 'inheriting' them from her older sisters. I also think she's the most creative in her play than her older sisters. She makes food and clothes for her barbies from playdough and fimo. She designed and made a bed with her grandad from wood for her favourite soft toy. She comes up with the most amazing ideas for how her games with her dolls will go, often mixing in other toys with her play as she thinks of new ideas. She currently has a transgender Action (wo)Man doll wearing a dress meant for an Angelina Ballerina soft toy!
I simply think that the whole 'toys make children less creative' idea is a myth. The same with the 'screens make children less creative' myth. My children all find numerous, fascinating ideas on YouTube - from hula-hooping to special effects make-up artistry.
I think the flourishing of creativity and imagination is more about living in an environment where your ideas are valued and where you receive loving and respectful help to manifest those ideas than it is about scarcity and restriction.
Clare
Jo Kirby
A friend of a friend of mine, has a young daughter (I think she is eight). The mum comes across as the sweetest woman but she parents very strictly. She is a private (paid) school teacher here in the UK and her educational ideas are somewhat old fashioned (in line with her school ethos).
One day last summer they were all round at my house and this mum and I got into a conversation about creativity. She was berating anything with a screen, as being the antithesis of creativity. (This was a bizarre conversation as she was doing it in such a sweet way, and she has such a gentle, soft voice). She was talking about her daughter and how she loves to makes stuff. How she spends hours with bits of cardboard and sticky tape. She said she gets through so much sticky tape! She makes herself toys! You can't get much more creative than that!
I asked what she made. I was fully expecting her to say doll furniture or something.
"Oh she makes iPads!, and phones!!"
Oh my goodness. I was laughing and crying inside at the same time :/
I may be projecting but the pain of desperation came to me then.
I love to make stuff, always have. When I was young I was almost constantly frustrated by not having enough. I was missing toys and missing essential materials to make things. I had stuff, but I wanted more, not just for the sake of it, but because I was trying to visualise or explore something, and I needed extra bits or complimentary parts/toys/materials to expand my vision or my story. I was missing the means to explore my ideas.
If I don't restrict my child's stuff and I try to honour his requests as best I can, and if I look carefully, I can see that his requests are not random or 'for the sake of it'. Rather they are connected to his blossoming ideas and interests. They are expansions and experiments. They are the essence of learning actually!
Jo
One day last summer they were all round at my house and this mum and I got into a conversation about creativity. She was berating anything with a screen, as being the antithesis of creativity. (This was a bizarre conversation as she was doing it in such a sweet way, and she has such a gentle, soft voice). She was talking about her daughter and how she loves to makes stuff. How she spends hours with bits of cardboard and sticky tape. She said she gets through so much sticky tape! She makes herself toys! You can't get much more creative than that!
I asked what she made. I was fully expecting her to say doll furniture or something.
"Oh she makes iPads!, and phones!!"
Oh my goodness. I was laughing and crying inside at the same time :/
I may be projecting but the pain of desperation came to me then.
I love to make stuff, always have. When I was young I was almost constantly frustrated by not having enough. I was missing toys and missing essential materials to make things. I had stuff, but I wanted more, not just for the sake of it, but because I was trying to visualise or explore something, and I needed extra bits or complimentary parts/toys/materials to expand my vision or my story. I was missing the means to explore my ideas.
If I don't restrict my child's stuff and I try to honour his requests as best I can, and if I look carefully, I can see that his requests are not random or 'for the sake of it'. Rather they are connected to his blossoming ideas and interests. They are expansions and experiments. They are the essence of learning actually!
Jo
Jo Kirby
I should have explained that the daughter is not allowed any screens. Just realised I didn't actually say that :/
On 7 Feb 2016, at 11:10, Jo Kirby jokirby2004@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
A friend of a friend of mine, has a young daughter (I think she is eight). The mum comes across as the sweetest woman but she parents very strictly. She is a private (paid) school teacher here in the UK and her educational ideas are somewhat old fashioned (in line with her school ethos).
One day last summer they were all round at my house and this mum and I got into a conversation about creativity. She was berating anything with a screen, as being the antithesis of creativity. (This was a bizarre conversation as she was doing it in such a sweet way, and she has such a gentle, soft voice). She was talking about her daughter and how she loves to makes stuff. How she spends hours with bits of cardboard and sticky tape. She said she gets through so much sticky tape! She makes herself toys! You can't get much more creative than that!
I asked what she made. I was fully expecting her to say doll furniture or something.
"Oh she makes iPads!, and phones!!"
Oh my goodness. I was laughing and crying inside at the same time :/
I may be projecting but the pain of desperation came to me then.
I love to make stuff, always have. When I was young I was almost constantly frustrated by not having enough. I was missing toys and missing essential materials to make things. I had stuff, but I wanted more, not just for the sake of it, but because I was trying to visualise or explore something, and I needed extra bits or complimentary parts/toys/materials to expand my vision or my story. I was missing the means to explore my ideas.
If I don't restrict my child's stuff and I try to honour his requests as best I can, and if I look carefully, I can see that his requests are not random or 'for the sake of it'. Rather they are connected to his blossoming ideas and interests. They are expansions and experiments. They are the essence of learning actually!
Jo
amberuby@...
Thank you everyone so far! Loving all of these various perspectives.
I smiled at Sandra's mention of monasteries and prisons. When I told my husband about this mom's ideas, he also brought up how creative prisoners can get. Not at all the vibe we are aiming for in our home!
Prisoners have no choice in being restricted. Monks and nuns (hopefully) do. I can relate to Pam's note about artists choosing constraints. For my undergrad poetry writing classes, I often experimented with very restrictive fixed poetic forms in order to help me with writer's block.
Joyce's post (and her quote that Sandra found) are along the lines of where my thoughts were when I said something to this mom about value judgments. But I didn't explain to her what I meant. I only said "that sounds like parents making value judgments" because I was getting flustered. What I meant is that it seemed to me she was valuing one type of creativity over another (though perhaps she's not even seeing that there is in fact creativity in playing with already made toys).
And here's another related quote from Sandra that I had saved and was reminded of but couldn't find on her site because turns out it's from an Amy Childs podcast:
"If a kid is digging in the dirt with a stick because it's the very best thing in his life that he can do - there's nothing more interesting in his house, in his yard - that child should go to school. Any parent who isn't interested in, or is not willing to or is not able to make their unschooling environment better than school, shouldn't be unschooling. They should want the best for their child. And children need people, ideas, information, nice adults in their lives, and if they can have that more easily and more readily at school, then school is good. Only people who can do better than school should be unschooling, I think."
(http://unschoolingsupport.com/who-can-unschool/)
I didn't mention in my first post how the moment with this mom later played out. At some point her daughter ran up and showed her one of the dinosaur toys we had brought and were sharing (we usually bring toys wherever we go) and asked if she could get one like it. The mom proceeded to explain that *if* they picked a toy at home to get rid of (she even suggested one that the girl hadn't played with in a while) then yes they could get one dinosaur (we had 17 with us! I cringed at this interaction but said nothing).
Later on I noticed that one of the dinosaurs was missing and I started searching all over (we were at the beach and I was worried it had gotten swept to sea) but could not find it at all. I asked the other girl if she remembered where it went (since it was the one she wanted her mom to get for her and I thought she was likely the last to have played with it) and she said she didn't know. She did insist that she did *not* put it in the water.
My daughter (also 4 years old) got very sad and started saying things like we shouldn't bring toys, and I kept reassuring her we would replace the missing one, but the mood (MY mood?) soured and a dark cloud had moved in and threatened rain, so I started packing up to leave, and so did the group we were with. And wouldn't you know, as we all packed up, the other mom found our missing dinosaur - it somehow got stowed away in the bottom of *their* stroller.
And SO!! I want to be sure to note the reminder about being sweet and positive - I was so touched by that one last part of your original reply, Sandra. I truly *did* need to hear/read that. So thank you.
When this mom made her daughter apologize to my daughter, my daughter didn't really say anything in reply, and neither did I - because I wasn't exactly feeling very sweet, nor positive!
I'll be doing some more digging around and reading for help in building up my repertory of sweet and positive responses, and reminders to use them!
In other news, my family had a nice trip to the toy store today! It had been a while, and my daughter had actually been asking to go earlier in the week :)
With gratitude,
Amber
Let your friend do what she’s doing. Maybe invite her daughter over to play with toys! Be as sweet and positive with all involved as you can be.
Sandra
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-"Oh she makes iPads!, and phones!!"
Oh my goodness. I was laughing and crying inside at the same time :/
I may be projecting but the pain of desperation came to me then. -=-
______
I don’t think you’re projecting at all. It’s very telling.
There was an anti-TV book when Kirby was little, and one of their suggestions of things to do was to act out TV shows—to pretend to be the characters.
I wonder if anyone in the 17th century suggested that people should NOT go to Shakespeare plays, but should instead create plays at home, with those characters?
Or should people NOT play their own music or go to concerts, but instead mime playing cello to YoYo Ma videos, or play air guitar to the radio?
Something BASED on something rich and wonderful, but which is not actually that thing, nor anything LIKE it, reminds me of cargo cults. Anyone unfamiliar with cargo cults should read about it. It’s odd, interesting, and sad. Short version: During WWII, allied troops on Pacific islands made landing strips and drop points (targets on runways, or in clearings) and through radio contact, received shipments (landed or dropped from planes) of food and other supplies. After they were gone, natives of those islands created landing strips (large or small, so either actual or symbolic) and models of airplanes large or small) and fake radios (of coconuts and boxes or whatever) and they did ritualistic things, hopeing to get delivery of “cargo” from the sky. I’m not making this up.
In the 1960’s some thought there was just one group, but as years passed, that one split up, or maybe some were independently formed, and it didn’t go away.
It is, in a way, scientific. :-) They observed what they thought resulted in cargo shipments, and are doing their best to recreate the onditions.
In a way it’s a religion. In a way it’s superstition.
When parents deprive children, or dress them certain ways, or get them certain toys of particular materials (wood not plastic) or colors (primary colors only?) or associations (no Disney art or logos), the parents are hoping for intellectual or emotional cargo, I think.
Sandra
Oh my goodness. I was laughing and crying inside at the same time :/
I may be projecting but the pain of desperation came to me then. -=-
______
I don’t think you’re projecting at all. It’s very telling.
There was an anti-TV book when Kirby was little, and one of their suggestions of things to do was to act out TV shows—to pretend to be the characters.
I wonder if anyone in the 17th century suggested that people should NOT go to Shakespeare plays, but should instead create plays at home, with those characters?
Or should people NOT play their own music or go to concerts, but instead mime playing cello to YoYo Ma videos, or play air guitar to the radio?
Something BASED on something rich and wonderful, but which is not actually that thing, nor anything LIKE it, reminds me of cargo cults. Anyone unfamiliar with cargo cults should read about it. It’s odd, interesting, and sad. Short version: During WWII, allied troops on Pacific islands made landing strips and drop points (targets on runways, or in clearings) and through radio contact, received shipments (landed or dropped from planes) of food and other supplies. After they were gone, natives of those islands created landing strips (large or small, so either actual or symbolic) and models of airplanes large or small) and fake radios (of coconuts and boxes or whatever) and they did ritualistic things, hopeing to get delivery of “cargo” from the sky. I’m not making this up.
In the 1960’s some thought there was just one group, but as years passed, that one split up, or maybe some were independently formed, and it didn’t go away.
It is, in a way, scientific. :-) They observed what they thought resulted in cargo shipments, and are doing their best to recreate the onditions.
In a way it’s a religion. In a way it’s superstition.
When parents deprive children, or dress them certain ways, or get them certain toys of particular materials (wood not plastic) or colors (primary colors only?) or associations (no Disney art or logos), the parents are hoping for intellectual or emotional cargo, I think.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-I should have explained that the daughter is not allowed any screens. Just realised I didn't actually say that :/-=-
Hey, you didn’t have to. :-)
So this could result in the daughter being sneaky, or fixating on what she doesn’t have.
It could result in her thinking less of her mother.
When she’s away at college or otherwise grown, she might spend more time watching videos than she might if she had watched plenty and all she wanted when she was home. So she might not take as much opportunity to explore her new surroundings as she would have otherwise.
OR, as happens with some people, she might so much want to trust her mother’s affection and wisdom that she internalizes all the fears and credits all her creativity and goodness to the lack of computer useage, and praise her mother for life for her foresight and skill.
Sandra
Hey, you didn’t have to. :-)
So this could result in the daughter being sneaky, or fixating on what she doesn’t have.
It could result in her thinking less of her mother.
When she’s away at college or otherwise grown, she might spend more time watching videos than she might if she had watched plenty and all she wanted when she was home. So she might not take as much opportunity to explore her new surroundings as she would have otherwise.
OR, as happens with some people, she might so much want to trust her mother’s affection and wisdom that she internalizes all the fears and credits all her creativity and goodness to the lack of computer useage, and praise her mother for life for her foresight and skill.
Sandra
Kelly Callahan
A few other thoughts about the minimalism...
I have seen quite a few friends and acquaintances move from an attachment parenting approach into mindset. It's interesting- breastfeeding on demand, co-sleeping, babywearing- and then when the child starts to be old enough to have some bigger opinions and desires in the world, the limitations set in. I was also firmly in this camp, and I think in my mind it was about being 'natural' and too many toys, plastic toys, electronic toys were not natural. This was fed by engaging with Waldorf playgroups and early childhood programs as well.
I remember very clearly when my daughter was a year old, we were visiting my in-laws. My daughter was very lively and did not enjoy going to bed. We would run ourselves ragged driving her hither and yon, lying down with her for long stretches of time when clearly she just was not ready to sleep.
My father in law had this brilliant idea and ran out and bought this plush frog toy that had a speaker and buttons on his tummy- you pressed the buttons and he would sing lullabies, or quiet music would play.
I was livid. I forbade her to have it. I felt that if my daughter was to be sung to, it would be by me or another live person, not an electronic recording.
I look back on it now and I am so struck by the narrow thinking- that in my world, recorded music (which, of course we listened to but it was on cd or ipod or whatever) could not exist side by side with humans singing. It was one or the other, and one was good and one was bad.
But again, I wanted 'natural' not manufactured. I thought it was in line with babywearing, breastfeeding, cosleeping, etc. but of course, I was choosing which needs I wanted to meet and judging all the rest.
The other point I was thinking of is how it's an evolution of the idea of spoiling. It used to be that feeding your baby on demand, cosleeping etc were spoiling. Now, that isn't' looked at widely as spoiling... but giving your child too many toys or too much time on a computer or tv *is* spoiling... spoiling their creativity. And it's so much more... intellectual sounding (for lack of a better term) to limit in terms of the prized creativity, rather than just run-of-the-mill spoiling.
Unschooling really helped me change my attitudes about this. My kids are the only grandchildren with 3 sets of grandparents. No cousins. They are given * a lot * of things, expensive things, nice things. When my daughter was 3, she wanted an ipod. It was in the first generation of shuffle ipods, no screen, just a like a USB stick. She knew exactly who to call- grandpa- to get one. And she did. She got a lot of enjoyment out of that little ipod.
I used to agonize over all the stuff. Now I feel really grateful that my kids have these opportunities and gifts. We couldn't provide everything they want and I appreciate that the family is so generous. And as many others have witnessed in their kids, far from being greedy or taking advantage of the generosity, my kids think of others and give things away, will decline gifts when asked if they want something, and are conscientious about what they do ask for.
--
Kelly Callahan CCH
Concentric Healing Classical Homeopathy
(207) 691-6798
Sandra Dodd
-=-I have seen quite a few friends and acquaintances move from an attachment parenting approach into mindset. -=-
I think there was a word missing.
“Controlling”?
"Minimalist?”
-=-I look back on it now and I am so struck by the narrow thinking- that in my world, recorded music (which, of course we listened to but it was on cd or ipod or whatever) could not exist side by side with humans singing. It was one or the other, and one was good and one was bad.
But again, I wanted 'natural' not manufactured. I thought it was in line with babywearing, breastfeeding, cosleeping, etc. but of course, I was choosing which needs I wanted to meet and judging all the rest. -=-
That’s a perfect example of why it’s not WHAT that’s important, but WHY?
It’s why the words people use give us big clues to what they’re thinking, and fearing, and doing. Hundreds of times people have said “That’s not what I wrote—just answer the question exactly as I wrote it,” or in the other direction will say “When I wrote ‘lazy,’ what I really meant was…” or “Yes, yes, don’t nit-pick. Of course, because we’re unschoolers when I write about teaching I really mean learning.: :-)
So if when a child was nursing and sleeping with the parents the parent thought “I’m giving him the option to do this or not,” then that can lead smoothly to lots MORE options. If the parent is thinking, “I will never let a piece of latex touch this child’s body,” or “Even if she wanted to sleep alone, I would never let her, beause….” [I’m a) impressing my family-bed friends, or b) pissing off my mother, or c) some other cooler-than-thou reason that doesn’t have to do with the child directly].
When it’s about the child’s choices and comfort, unschooling can easily grow from it.
I’m glad you wrote all that Kelly.
Sandra
I think there was a word missing.
“Controlling”?
"Minimalist?”
-=-I look back on it now and I am so struck by the narrow thinking- that in my world, recorded music (which, of course we listened to but it was on cd or ipod or whatever) could not exist side by side with humans singing. It was one or the other, and one was good and one was bad.
But again, I wanted 'natural' not manufactured. I thought it was in line with babywearing, breastfeeding, cosleeping, etc. but of course, I was choosing which needs I wanted to meet and judging all the rest. -=-
That’s a perfect example of why it’s not WHAT that’s important, but WHY?
It’s why the words people use give us big clues to what they’re thinking, and fearing, and doing. Hundreds of times people have said “That’s not what I wrote—just answer the question exactly as I wrote it,” or in the other direction will say “When I wrote ‘lazy,’ what I really meant was…” or “Yes, yes, don’t nit-pick. Of course, because we’re unschoolers when I write about teaching I really mean learning.: :-)
So if when a child was nursing and sleeping with the parents the parent thought “I’m giving him the option to do this or not,” then that can lead smoothly to lots MORE options. If the parent is thinking, “I will never let a piece of latex touch this child’s body,” or “Even if she wanted to sleep alone, I would never let her, beause….” [I’m a) impressing my family-bed friends, or b) pissing off my mother, or c) some other cooler-than-thou reason that doesn’t have to do with the child directly].
When it’s about the child’s choices and comfort, unschooling can easily grow from it.
I’m glad you wrote all that Kelly.
Sandra
Kelly Callahan
I can't get the email to format right for quoting back but-
Yes- I meant to write ' a minimalist mindset'
WHY vs WHAT...
It was a big revelation for me to understand for myself the assumptions that had been underlying my own attachment parenting. When we started unschooling and I read that some parents felt that unschooling 'naturally' flowed from being in La Leche League and attachment parenting babies and toddlers, I felt confused. I was in LLL, I attachment parented, and flowing into unschooling is not what happened. I got my kids to a Waldorf preschool asap. And then proceeded to limit all the things they said were bad- logo clothes, videos/movies/computers, plastic... just like cribs were bad, and bottles and formula were also things to avoid.
The reading I did about attachment parenting would talk about how it would help your child to become a whole person, whose needs were met and they were well bonded. But I think it's the rare person who understands how to carry that on as your child gets older and how radical unschooling can truly be a natural path to flow into and not a sharp right turn, which is what I thought.
--
Sandra Dodd
Amber, thanks for bringing that quote about playing in the dirt.
I went to see if you had transcribed it yourself, but there’s a transcription of the whole podcast. So I want to quote more fully, because I think it’s the magical sacrifice that’s even more to the point, about minimalism and creativity (and sacrificing one toy to get another—yikes).
____________
Sandra Dodd: When people are wanting to control their children is often because they have the almost magical belief that by controlling or sacrificing something they can guarantee a child’s safety, curiosity, innocence.
And if the thing that they sacrifice is a chicken that’s voodoo. If the thing that they sacrifice is the television time, that’s modern voodoo.
That by limiting a child's access to the modern world, to normal everyday things, they can somehow guarantee creativity, and it doesn’t work.
And there will be parents who are thrilled because their kids went out in the yards and dug in the dirt with their sticks.
And they say: "See, see how creative?”. I’ve played in the dirt with sticks as a kid, as adult, but I’ve never learned as much, no matter what the dirt and what the stick, as i have watching a television show, or even looking at a picture book, or talking to people, or looking in magazines.
But if they are sitting outside playing in the dirt with a stick and your mother is right there with you and you are talking about other things that can be really valuable.
If the kid is digging in the dirt with a stick because that is the very best thing in his life that he can do, there is nothing more interesting in his house, in his yard, that child should go to school.
Any parent who isn’t interesting in, or is not willing to, or is not able to make their unschooling environment better than school shouldn’t be unschooling. They should want the best for their child. And children need people, ideas, information, nice adults in their lives. And if they can have that more easily and more readily at school, then school is good.
Only people who can do better than school should be unschooling, I think.
_______________________
I went to see if you had transcribed it yourself, but there’s a transcription of the whole podcast. So I want to quote more fully, because I think it’s the magical sacrifice that’s even more to the point, about minimalism and creativity (and sacrificing one toy to get another—yikes).
____________
Sandra Dodd: When people are wanting to control their children is often because they have the almost magical belief that by controlling or sacrificing something they can guarantee a child’s safety, curiosity, innocence.
And if the thing that they sacrifice is a chicken that’s voodoo. If the thing that they sacrifice is the television time, that’s modern voodoo.
That by limiting a child's access to the modern world, to normal everyday things, they can somehow guarantee creativity, and it doesn’t work.
And there will be parents who are thrilled because their kids went out in the yards and dug in the dirt with their sticks.
And they say: "See, see how creative?”. I’ve played in the dirt with sticks as a kid, as adult, but I’ve never learned as much, no matter what the dirt and what the stick, as i have watching a television show, or even looking at a picture book, or talking to people, or looking in magazines.
But if they are sitting outside playing in the dirt with a stick and your mother is right there with you and you are talking about other things that can be really valuable.
If the kid is digging in the dirt with a stick because that is the very best thing in his life that he can do, there is nothing more interesting in his house, in his yard, that child should go to school.
Any parent who isn’t interesting in, or is not willing to, or is not able to make their unschooling environment better than school shouldn’t be unschooling. They should want the best for their child. And children need people, ideas, information, nice adults in their lives. And if they can have that more easily and more readily at school, then school is good.
Only people who can do better than school should be unschooling, I think.
_______________________