kjl8@...

My daughter is 12. She seems to naturally stay up later and then sleep in. She sleeps about 12 hours once she falls asleep. If we have a special event to get to earlier, she can and does get up.


The trouble we are having is that she says she wants to wake up earlier. She does not hear any alarm we have tried. When I wake her gently, she doesn't get up and I wind up going in multiple times. If I give up and let her sleep, she gets mad that she "wasted the day", meaning mostly daylight at this point because she will see little of the sun. If I keep going in, I have a hard time feeling kind inside. 


I feel like she only tries hard to get up if we have something different and new planned. (We have a few regular activities with friends that start around 2:00. She wakes up basically just in time to eat before they come.)


When I tried to plan a week with lots of new/interesting days, she said it was too much activity and was overwhelmed.


She does like doing things at home. She seems happy and interested in what she does in the evenings...playing games with us, watching movies, crafting, reading, texting with friends, doing projects for DIY.org, playing music and singing.


I am not sure what to do. She seems frustrated. I am feeling frustrated. 


I would love advice. Are there great options I am not seeing?


Kiersten





Sandra Dodd

Have you asked how far she’s willing for you to go to wake her up?
Pulling covers off?
Lights and loud music?
Wet wash cloth?

I’ve sent this to my kids. They’re all busy with jobs and stuff but maybe they’ll have ideas. They’ve gone through such phases, and if they can remember it might help.

Maybe others here with older kids could ask, too.

MAYBE she doesn’t really want to wake up, but wishes she really wanted to. Sometimes people really wish they wanted to exercise, or clean closets, or make a big meal but they don’t really want to. They really WANT to want to. :-)

Sandra

Clare Kirkpatrick

Instead of going in, nudging her awake and leaving her to drift back to sleep, is there any reason you can't wake her by getting into bed with her with plenty of time and facilitating a loving, connecting waking up with a cuddle and a chat about the day ahead or whatever?

On 26 Jan 2016 17:18, "kjl8@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:
 

My daughter is 12. She seems to naturally stay up later and then sleep in. She sleeps about 12 hours once she falls asleep. If we have a special event to get to earlier, she can and does get up.


The trouble we are having is that she says she wants to wake up earlier. She does not hear any alarm we have tried. When I wake her gently, she doesn't get up and I wind up going in multiple times. If I give up and let her sleep, she gets mad that she "wasted the day", meaning mostly daylight at this point because she will see little of the sun. If I keep going in, I have a hard time feeling kind inside. 


I feel like she only tries hard to get up if we have something different and new planned. (We have a few regular activities with friends that start around 2:00. She wakes up basically just in time to eat before they come.)


When I tried to plan a week with lots of new/interesting days, she said it was too much activity and was overwhelmed.


She does like doing things at home. She seems happy and interested in what she does in the evenings...playing games with us, watching movies, crafting, reading, texting with friends, doing projects for DIY.org, playing music and singing.


I am not sure what to do. She seems frustrated. I am feeling frustrated. 


I would love advice. Are there great options I am not seeing?


Kiersten





Sandra Dodd

Holly thinks the mom’s planning to be too gentle. Maybe if she goes in and says “Good morning! The sun’s up. Can I make you something for breakfast? I’m looking forward to spending the day with you. Do you want a shower before you eat?" To get her thinking. To show excitement, to show that it would be really nice for her to get up and start the day. Enthusiasm. Not to guilt her into getting up, but to show that she could affect the house and family in a positive way if she wants to get up. To make her feel really welcomed to wake up.

My other idea (Holly said) is that the daughter said she felt like she was “wasting her day” because there’s not a lot of sunlight, but I have three different things to say about that.
There are so many ways I do not see that as a waste of time. If she’s staying up late, then that’s how she’s spending her time. (Not wasting it.)

Sleep is vital. There is no person alive who doesn’t sleep. Sleep isn’t a waste of time. People are still alive when they’re asleep.

The mom is recognizing that it’s natural, but the daughter isn’t really accepting of that.

Depending on the daughter’s perspective on things, Holly thinks that at night it’s daytime somewhere else and in the daytime, it’s nighttime somewhere else. This might seem like total bullshit (said Holly) but the sun’s still shining when it’s dark. So it’s not so important to measure time by the apparent sunlight. The sun is infinitely shining. :-) (Holly asked me to add that.)

If she’s doing indoor activities, it will matter less whether it’s daylight. If she wants to do outside activities, it’s understandable, but in the mom’s description of what she likes to do, those are things being done in the evening. So she IS doing her activities during the day, but it’s daytime in Australia, or India (or the mom could mention any country on the other side of the world that the daughter has an interest in).

Holly thinks enthusiasm will help.

*I* think the smell of bacon and coffee can help. Unless you’re Mormon, or Jewish, or Muslim, or vegetarian. But there might be something else that smells good.

Most of the words above are Holly, me transcribing while she was on the phone.

Sandra

kjl8@...

I read her the last part of this and she said that it rings true. She feels like she "should" get up so she has more daylight and gets "more done", but she also doesn't want to get up. She thinks daylight helps her mood. I think she may also be comparing herself to neighbors and cousins.

I hadn't thought about it in this way- the wanting to vs. thinking she wants to. It is opening up a good conversation for us.

In the past (years ago), I did climb in with her and cuddle. She usually fell back asleep or got annoyed at me. She was not ready to talk or really be awake. She now has a twin loft bed, so climbing in would be tricky. I hadn't thought about this possibility in a long time. Definitely something to consider. Even if she came and had time in my bed or somewhere else.

I also know the daylight issue will lessen as Spring and then Summer come. This time of year is particularly tough.










kjl8@...

She likes hearing that doing what she loves at night is valuable and not wasting time! 
And she smiled about it being daytime somewhere.

We were also talking a bit about puberty and that maybe her body really needs this sleep. She doesn't have to feel guilty or angry about it.

Both my kids seem interested in the idea of us hosting nighttime get togethers so we can see more people.

Bacon and coffee help me :)
Hot chocolate works on her brother.

Today, we have brownies.

Juliet Kemp


=== She thinks daylight helps her mood. ===

If she thinks daylight helps her mood, but her current sleep schedule means she doesn't get much of it, you/she could try a SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder) light. 

Where I live (UK) even if you are up when the sun's up there's not much actual daylight right now, especially on dull days. I don't (I think) have SAD per se, but I do find that the light lifts my mood at this time of year. 

It also helps me wake up, if I put it on when the alarm goes off.  



Juliet 

Sam

I loved Sandra and Holly's suggestions. I am going through almost exactly the same with my 9 year old!

I would like to add that if I make her favourite breakfast (pancakes) and put them Right next to her on the pillow, if I get can get her to open her eyes and smell/see them, while chatting loudly and happily to her, it's usually enough to get her up to eat them!

But don't leave her as she'll eat them and go back to sleep!

Waking her up telling her a funny story or being playful really helps, as do kisses and cuddles and Not rushing!

Sam xx

Sent from my iPhone

On 26 Jan 2016, at 18:33, kjl8@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

She likes hearing that doing what she loves at night is valuable and not wasting time! 

And she smiled about it being daytime somewhere.

We were also talking a bit about puberty and that maybe her body really needs this sleep. She doesn't have to feel guilty or angry about it.

Both my kids seem interested in the idea of us hosting nighttime get togethers so we can see more people.

Bacon and coffee help me :)
Hot chocolate works on her brother.

Today, we have brownies.

Sandra Dodd

Ideas send from Divia Eden:
___________________

I had some ideas about getting up early, but haven't figured out the formatting posting to always learning from my phone.

Food in the morning can reset the body clock. That's why it helps adjust time zones when you fast and then eat breakfast at the new time.

I'd bring her breakfast in bed for a few days, and tell her she can go right back to sleep after she eats it. Then, her body might start expecting food at that time and wake her up on her own.

Doing that helped me adjust my daughter's schedule, though she was 2 at the time, which is different.

Another idea is shining a bright blue light in the morning (Amazon has them) or wearing orange glasses at night to block blue light. And setting the computer to produce less blue light at night (if relevant, there's an app called Flux).

--
Divia Eden

Alex & Brian Polikowsky

Yes. I got one as a Christmas gift but has not used it yet.
Here is some information on light therapy.



Alex Polikowsky!













Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 26, 2016, at 1:10 PM, Juliet Kemp juliet@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 


=== She thinks daylight helps her mood. ===

If she thinks daylight helps her mood, but her current sleep schedule means she doesn't get much of it, you/she could try a SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder) light. 

Where I live (UK) even if you are up when the sun's up there's not much actual daylight right now, especially on dull days. I don't (I think) have SAD per se, but I do find that the light lifts my mood at this time of year. 

It also helps me wake up, if I put it on when the alarm goes off.  



Juliet 

kjl8@...

Thank you everyone! There are lots of great ideas here.

For now, we decided to talk each night about what she wants me to do the next day. 

For today, she does want me to be more enthusiastic, but she also wants the right to fall back asleep a few times. She wants to try getting up at 11:00, so the thought is for me to first wake her at 10:00 and then a few more times if needed until 11:00. She thinks taking a shower at 11:00 will help her finish waking up. 

I am also going to take her some finger foods to munch on.  She may or may not eat any. (She usually doesn't like food when she wakes up). I do think consistent morning food can help people wake up earlier.

I may look into getting a light. I used to have one for myself. It definitely wouldn't hurt. It is winter in Northern Ohio and we don't have much sunlight.

Kiersten

Sandra Dodd

-=-For now, we decided to talk each night about what she wants me to do the next day.

-=-For today, she does want me to be more enthusiastic, but she also wants the right to fall back asleep a few times. She wants to try getting up at 11:00, so the thought is for me to first wake her at 10:00 and then a few more times if needed until 11:00. She thinks taking a shower at 11:00 will help her finish waking up. -=-

Marty came by yesterday afternoon, and talked to me about your question.
He says that when she really wants to wake up, she will. She won’t ignore the alarm if she honestly does want to get up.

Honestly, I think a hour of pre-ordered mom activity is a bit much. I wouldn’t work that hard to help a child not feel guilty about staying in bed on a day when there was no scheduled activity.
There are alarms with snooze functions all over the place. Phones. Let her operate her own alarm clock, if she doesn’t need to be somewhere, and she could turn it off herself, or let the snooze wake her up “a few more times if needed.”

Sandra

LEAH ROSE

All of our kids, as they moved into their teen years, went through a stage of staying up really late and sleeping till noon or later. I'm assuming it's hormonally driven - recent research shows that teens' body clocks naturally shift later. For most of our kids their super late-night phases were fairly short-lived or else sporadic, because they didn't like the feeling of sleeping so much of the daylight away and/or had things to get up for and didn't like feeling fatigued.

However, this past year our youngest (13) has had this ongoing issue of sleeping in past when he "wants" to be up. He really likes routines and he especially loves his evening routine, which has come to include staying up well into the night watching his favorite Netflix shows. He loves cocooning with the dog and his TV in the quiet time when everyone else is asleep and hasn't wanted to give that up. Yet he would often regret it the next day if he slept too far into the afternoon. I offered many suggestions and we have tried different things that haven't consistently worked, and sometimes ideas he thought of or agreed to the night before would make him angry upon being implemented the next day. I told him it was asking too much for me to become his snooze alarm every morning - that I would wake him up when he wants me to, but it's up to him to move himself out of bed if he really wants to be up. Most of the time now I let him sleep (his choice) and he gets himself out of bed in time to not "regret" the time...though just two days ago he accidentally slept till 2:30. So he decided that from now on when the clock hits 2 AM he will finish whatever episode he's watching on Netflix and go to bed. I am interested to see if this new solution will take hold.  

He has only one day a week when he has something scheduled that he needs to be up for, and he does tend to sleep through his alarm, so we always make sure someone wakes him up. On those days he prefers to be woken up with minimal time to get ready (15-20 minutes) so that he doesn't have time to lie in bed - he knows he has to move right away and he does, with minimal prompting. 

One idea I am going to suggest here is using an energizing blend of essential oils rubbed on the soles of the feet and insides of the wrists. I haven't done this for our son specifically as a wake up method, but there have been a few occasions where he was feeling very out-of-sorts, lying on the sofa extremely annoyed and apathetic, and when I rubbed one drop each of lemon and lavender oils (mixed in 1/2 tsp almond oil) onto his feet and wrists, in every case (despite his irritation and skepticism that it would make any difference) within 5 minutes he was on his feet with an idea for something to do and energy in his step. He was off and running. If the OP (or anyone) wants to try this, I strongly recommend going with oils from a company like Rocky Mountain Oils, Doterra, or Young Living, as they all use the highest standards for therapeutic grade oils, which is important for purity/effectiveness. RMO is my company of choice because their oils tend to be slightly less expensive and have free shipping in the States, and there is no membership needed for the best prices. 

In a nutshell, I agree with Marty that when a child truly wants to be up - when their reason becomes compelling enough to them - they will make it happen. 

~ Leah

Sandra Dodd

-=-One idea I am going to suggest here is using an energizing blend of essential oils rubbed on the soles of the feet and insides of the wrists.-=-

When Marty was eight, nine, ten, he used to become agitated sometimes at night. He would sleepwalk. He never left the house, but he would get up suddenly and start walking, and muttering unhappily. I had some juniper massage oil, and sometimes if he was very sleepy but had the unsettled feeling, I would rub that on his feet, slowly, gently, to help him relax, and then put loose socks on, I said so he wouldn’t slip if he got up. But I would also say “Stay in the bed until this soaks in, okay?” And the combination of the touch, attention, scent and thought of waiting could really help him go to sleep.

So do the opposite of all that to wake kids up, I guess. :-)
(Kind of a joke… kind of agreeing with Leah Rose.)

Sandra

belinda.dutch@...

Hi,

My daughter is also 12 and finds it hard to get up.  She has things that she really wants to do in the mornings (she works at a pony yard 3 mornings a week) but finds it incredibly hard waking.

I have explained how I really hate getting her out of bed as it feels like I am battling her and forcing her against her will - which we haven't  done in our family for some time  - and yet she has asked me to get her up.  I have explained how this is very difficult for me - I don't want to let her down but I don't want to be forcing her against her will.

Each evening she needs to get up next day we work backwards (when do you need to get to sleep by?), then she writes anew her request to me (on a little white board!) to help her get up the next day and we put it by her bed.  This helps me feel better (I am only following her orders!) and helps her remember her resolve.  

Practically, She sets her own alarm, so I am not the first thing she experiences (she is already primed even if she has fallen back to sleep again!), I open the curtains, chat, maybe switch on a perky radio station, talk about the day, walk in and out constantly, put her clothes for the day to warm on the radiator (ask which clothes she wants to wear so she has to answer), send the dog in to bounce on her bed and make her tea. (me, not the dog!)  I occasionally resort to removing and hiding the duvet, but with a sense of humour.  It always helps if there's some cake or croissant or something decadent to look forward to for breakfast!

I find this difficult and stressful at times, to be honest.  She is sometimes less than polite.  But it is getting easier with time.  Though I'm not sure if it was just a general desire to be 'up earlier' whether it would work...  she finds it much easier to be externally motivated, than to will herself to do things against her will (if that makes sense).  She loves her job, gets great pleasure from it and so there are never any recriminations. It's still hard though.  Being bright and chirpy when you know it is grating on someone.... i know how annoying it is to be on the receiving end of that!

I suppose what I'm saying is that because we have a written pledge that she really wants me to be like that, it is a reminder to us both that what I'm doing is ultimately loving and supportive even if it feels grating at the time.  And that each evening when we are snuggling in bed, in a calm and loving atmosphere, she makes that decision and request anew.


Belinda







lisajceledon@...

Most 12 year olds have to be in school until at least 2 or 3 pm. They don't get to start their own day until after school, so even if an unschooled 12 year old slept all the way until 2 pm every weekday, they wouldn't be missing much more than most 12 year olds (who would also probably like to spend more of that time sleeping).
That might be a way you could help her look at it, in addition to helping her arrange the things she wants to do that require day light hours in ways that allow her to sleep until she's not sleepy, on those days that there isn't some specific thing that needs to be done earlier.

Lisa Celedon

kjl8@...

Update on how things are going... Things are great!

I think that my posting here and sharing the responses I got with her let her know I really cared and was willing to try something different to make things better between us :)

At this point, I am asking her each night when she wants me to wake her up, when she wants to be out of bed, and if there is anything that will help (food, shower, etc.)

The reason I decided (in a previous post) to start with waking her up an hour before she wants out of bed is because I think she likes waking up slowly. I thought it would take the pressure off of me and my thinking that she was ignoring me. It means I am willing to go back in once or twice, not that I am spending an hour of my time waking her.


The first day, I went in an hour before she wanted to be out of bed, took her some snacks and a drink, encouraged her to sit up and speak with me, and hung out til she drank something. She said she wanted a bit more sleep. I left to go do my own thing. She came down half an hour later, said she had gotten up and checked her iPod messages and stuff and decided to stay up.

The next day was basically a repeat minus the snacks. 

Since then, I have offered to come back if she wants a bit more sleep (before the time she said she wanted to be out of bed), and nudged her toward the shower when she thought it would help her wake up.

Our attitudes toward each other are much improved!

Kiersten