Joyce Fetteroll

Posting anonymously for a member

============================
I am more than sure this subject has come up before but I can't find it in the feeds. So I apologize in advance for taking up everyone's time.

I honestly feel very confused about this matter that has arisen and hope that some nuggets of wisdom will come from a discussion about this.

We are an Unschooling family (some six years now) with some like-minded friends and some who are not.

Our daughters (9 and 11) invited a friend round for an impromptu dinner and play. I checked with the Mum, who I know reasonably well (not bosom-buddies but well enough) and was given a "yes, that's fine thank you". That's all great and food was picked up for their meal and that's where my concerns started to creep in.

The friend is also 9 and has an older sibling. The family are very Christian and clearly (observed from socialising with them) have strong views on child behaviour i.e. play when chores are done, Bed times, rigidly structured schooling (at home). I am not criticising, hopefully painting a picture. The children have never been to a cinema, music or other festival or museums. I know it's not a cost issue for them, just their ways and I fully respect that. Additionally, they are not allowed to watch mainstream movies like the pixel animated ones. "They've not even seen Shrek!", my girls said. They're not allowed ice cream in the winter.

Now, when they're here, what do I do? Do I suggest to my daughter's we don't show them the screen? Don't put on a movie? Don't turn on your laptops? Don't turn on your tablets? Get out the drawing stuff? I've stood back this evening to hear my eldest daughter say, "we'll put minecraft on peaceful and keep it in daytime, is that a good idea?"

Do I give our guest ice cream dessert? It seems ridiculous that I'm questioning myself about this... it's our home, with our principles, our funny ways. Please, what do I do?

Big thank you's in advance for any help. I look forward to reading the replies.

Sarah Thompson

Did you ask the other parent? Since I know almost every family has more restrictions that we do around computers, I will ask before a social engagement whether the other child can use the computer at our house. I usually say something like, "Wallace is really into gaming. Is that something he can share with x (qualifying for content-even if it's okay with the other family, if they limit computers I assume that GTA5 is not allowed)?"

Sarah

Alex & Brian Polikowsky

Has the parents asked that you do not show them movies?

Some families will let their kids see things at friend's houses.
If the parents have not asked I would do what you normally do but keep the movies tamed and age appropriate.

Alex Polikowsky











Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 7, 2015, at 2:45 PM, Joyce Fetteroll jfetteroll@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

Posting anonymously for a member

============================
I am more than sure this subject has come up before but I can't find it in the feeds. So I apologize in advance for taking up everyone's time.

I honestly feel very confused about this matter that has arisen and hope that some nuggets of wisdom will come from a discussion about this.

We are an Unschooling family (some six years now) with some like-minded friends and some who are not.

Our daughters (9 and 11) invited a friend round for an impromptu dinner and play. I checked with the Mum, who I know reasonably well (not bosom-buddies but well enough) and was given a "yes, that's fine thank you". That's all great and food was picked up for their meal and that's where my concerns started to creep in.

The friend is also 9 and has an older sibling. The family are very Christian and clearly (observed from socialising with them) have strong views on child behaviour i.e. play when chores are done, Bed times, rigidly structured schooling (at home). I am not criticising, hopefully painting a picture. The children have never been to a cinema, music or other festival or museums. I know it's not a cost issue for them, just their ways and I fully respect that. Additionally, they are not allowed to watch mainstream movies like the pixel animated ones. "They've not even seen Shrek!", my girls said. They're not allowed ice cream in the winter.

Now, when they're here, what do I do? Do I suggest to my daughter's we don't show them the screen? Don't put on a movie? Don't turn on your laptops? Don't turn on your tablets? Get out the drawing stuff? I've stood back this evening to hear my eldest daughter say, "we'll put minecraft on peaceful and keep it in daytime, is that a good idea?"

Do I give our guest ice cream dessert? It seems ridiculous that I'm questioning myself about this... it's our home, with our principles, our funny ways. Please, what do I do?

Big thank you's in advance for any help. I look forward to reading the replies.

Kirsty Harriman

Our girls had friends  (they recently moved) who were Christian homeschooled (they have gone to school now too ) and had strong views about those things you mentioned and did school at home until 3 pm. If they were allowed to come over for tea (even the 12 year old wasn't allowed sleepovers with anyone outside of the church ) and a play I would do my best to respect their rules. If that meant no tv/ipad etc then we would do something else. If that many certain foods then that would  be ok too up to a point - easy not to serve ice cream in winter or avoid other foods. It would only be a problem if I felt untrusted by the other mother to respect her rules and if she started trying to control me. Honest open communication with the other mother about your different approaches ensure you are all on the same page. 


Sent from my Samsung GALAXY Note3 on the Telstra Mobile network

Sandra Dodd

-=-it's our home, with our principles, our funny ways. Please, what do I do?-=


Your principles should include making guests comfortable, and behaving in such a way that the guests will want to (or be allowed to) return in the future, right?

Sandra

lucy.web

> On 7 Sep 2015, at 23:41, Kirsty Harriman kgharriman1@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> It would only be a problem if I felt untrusted by the other mother to respect her rules and if she started trying to control me. Honest open communication with the other mother about your different approaches ensure you are all on the same page.


I agree with this absolutely. My children had friends who would come to play from time to time and the parents had asked us to not use the computers or play video games or watch dvds. We agreed. Even after two years of the mother and her sons coming to our house all together, and seeing how we respected their rules, one day the mother took me aside and said she was disturbed because her son had mentioned he'd seen my daughter's ipod in her room. It was an old ipod, just for music, not a touch screen, and it wasn't switched on, just lying on her table.


I'm afraid it was the last straw for me. When we discussed it my girls both decided that actually they hadn't really enjoyed the visits for quite a while (the boys had other troubles) and would rather try meeting in an outside, neutral space to play. Soon after we stopped seeing that family altogether. When we did stop, I realised what a huge relief it was for me to not have to see the mother again ... Each time we'd met she'd ask about unschooling, asking why I wasn't worried about this and that, didn't the girls use their computers too much? etc etc. I'd respond to these questions each time, but it wasn't until they stopped altogether that I realised what a strain it had been for all of us.


I would discuss it with your children. It's a good opportunity to talk about how some other families operate. Your children may decide that they're very happy to obey 'the rules' as an acceptable part of having these kids over to play. They might decide they'd rather look elsewhere for playmates.

Sandra Dodd

-=- one day the mother took me aside and said she was disturbed because her son had mentioned he'd seen my daughter's ipod in her room. It was an old ipod, just for music, not a touch screen, and it wasn't switched on, just lying on her table. -=-

That would be way too much for me, too.
I think I would have said "It's not your house."

-=-rather try meeting in an outside, neutral space to play-=-

Playgrounds have been great for us, with families who had other preferences. It's not an issue when they're on city property playing on slides and swings. We'd go home to our happy environment and not worry about what they went home to.

-=-Your children may decide that they're very happy to obey 'the rules' as an acceptable part of having these kids over to play.-=-

I wouldn't use "rules" even in quotation marks about what's done to make guests comfortable.

When a child came over who was afraid of dogs, we would make our dog comfortable in a closed bedroom in the back of the house. That was us being kind, not following their rules. When Christian unschoolers came over we played innocuous kid-music instead of music with language they would object to, but you just can't always know. Good friends of Holly's, two children of friends of the family, were riding with me and Holly in the car one day, and we had a homemade collection of harmony stuff—girl groups and doo-wop. "Under the Boardwalk" came on, and the eight year old girl covered the ears of her six year old brother. I paused it and she said her dad didn't want them listening to that song.

Just because her dad had visions in his head of what making love under the boardwalk might look like didn't mean he needed to pass that on to his children. But I didn't say so to anyone—not even Holly. It just made me realize that it's impossible to keep anyone happy all the time. :-) Even on the way to a neutral place, there could be a minor problem! :-)

So I wouldn't take a harsh stance one way or the other—neither say "We never compromise," or "We will follow your rules." Better to plan an activity or two that's fun for all of them and avoid even talking about whether you are or aren't playing games or listening to music.

Sandra

newmoon2000@...

Our family went through a period when, right about the time my twins started really get into computers and gaming, most of their friends became school age and were enrolled in Waldorf schools. The Waldorf method/philosophy strongly discourages technology of any sort: TV, movies, video games, computers, etc. So five of the families that we regularly associated with became very uncomfortable with exposing their children to "screens".

Our house had always been a favorite place for playdates and initially, in an effort to maintain our relationships with these families, I was having my kids turn off, put away, or sometimes even hide, their iPads/computers/gaming platforms while their friends were visiting. Their friend's parents were clearly uncomfortable with (and judgmental) of my children's unlimited access, partly out of genuine concern for how my choices would affect my children, but also because it made it hard for them when their kids would ask why my kids could have screens and they couldn't. 

So, it seemed easier at the time to just put the screens away. I would give my kids the option of either turning off their screens, or not having a playdate. In the beginning, they usually opted for the playdate.

This quickly became stressful for everybody concerned -- stressful for ME, because I was having to be constantly checking to make sure the visiting kids weren't "exposed" to screens...stressful for MY KIDS, because they LIKED to play on screens and wanted to share what they enjoyed with their friends...and stressful for the VISITING KIDS, because, for the most part, they were really interested in playing on screens but weren't allowed to.

The big shift happened one day while I was having the discussion (again!) with my kids about why some people think screens are bad and why we have to turn them off when those people come over. Suddenly, I realized that, by asking my kids to hide their iPads, I was sending a potentially damaging message. Basically, what they were learning, through my attempts to placate our visitors, was that the very thing that they/we loved to do the most was unacceptable to others and needed to be hidden (and/or only done in private when others weren't around). I was encouraging them to hide their love of computer games...to wait and do it when nobody else was looking. Yikes! How would a young child interpret that message?

I decided that day to stand behind my choice to allow my kids access to technology. I feel good about that choice and I am not ashamed...and I don't want my kids to feel ashamed either. So I told the other families that their kids were still welcome to come over, but that our family supports technology and our screens will be on when their kids are here! I can't begin to describe the relief! It put a strain on my relationship with some of the parents for a while, and perhaps we didn't have as many visitors that summer as we used to, but we all feel good about ourselves and our choices.

Now, two years later, I can tell you that of those five Waldorf families...one has converted to the homeschooling/gaming lifestyle, two of them let their kids use technology at our house (and a limited amount at their own house), one moved away, and one we see less frequently, either at THEIR house or at a park or public venue. 

Anyway, hope that helps...

Amy Edwards

Sandra Dodd

While I'm glad it worked out well to just tell the friends that your kids were going to have computers and games (Please don't use phrases like "they LIKED to play on screens"), I still don't think it's too extreme to make exceptions for visitors. I don't think your kids would have learned to be ashamed.

-=-Basically, what they were learning, through my attempts to placate our visitors, was that the very thing that they/we loved to do the most was unacceptable to others and needed to be hidden (and/or only done in private when others weren't around). I was encouraging them to hide their love of computer games...to wait and do it when nobody else was looking. Yikes! How would a young child interpret that message?-=-

When we have vegan or vegetarian guests, we take them to an Indian restaurant, or make something they can eat. That's not communicating that the food we eat is unacceptable to others or only eaten in private when others weren't around.

When there are people over who don't use any bad language for religious or delicate-personality reasons, we can refrain from saying that something or other is fucking bullshit. There are times and places and helping children learn tact and courtesy isn't a bad thing.

(If anyone was offended or shocked by the rude phrase in the previous paragraph, that's evidence for my argument that it's good to be careful. :-) )

There are guests who would be fine with loud hip-hop, or the South Park move, or Jay and Silent Bob stuff or whatever. There are other guests who wouldn't be. Why be antagonistic? Being a good host involves making the visitors comfortable. So don't have guests you're not willing to accommodate.

Sandra

newmoon2000@...

Hmmm...I agree with all of Sandra’s examples. And I would certainly make those same types of accommodations to make a guest feel comfortable. 


Perhaps the distinction here is that, at least in my case, the situation wasn’t about an occasional visitor – it was part of an ongoing relationship(s), in which friends were coming to our house several times a week and/or leaving their children in my care for extended periods of time (playdates, sleepovers), and insisting that they not be exposed to any technological devices, including TV, video games, computers or tablets.


Under those circumstances, I do think it can become a problem to continually acquiesce to the other person’s standards, especially if you strongly disagree with them. It probably wouldn’t be sustainable in the long run. At least it wasn’t for me…or for my kids. 


In considering my motivation for sharing my story, I think I offered it as an example for the original poster so that she might consider the longer-term ramifications of having her children turn off their electronic devices, if the other family ends up wanting to visit more frequently.


And I also think that my initial choice to accommodate was sending a mixed message to my children – “yes, the games we like to play are great, but let’s only play them in private.” I started to see that my kids were having difficulty reconciling why I was saying that the other parents were wrong about video games being “bad”, and yet I was still asking them to turn off the games while their friends were around.


Yes, I think it’s important (and kind) to be polite and accommodating to visitors, but it’s also important to stand up for what you believe in when somebody is trying to dictate your behavior. It’s also important not to repeatedly discount your own family’s needs while considering your guest’s needs.


I can see the need to support children in understanding that certain things should only be done in private when referring to something more potentially “offensive” like, say, nudity, or swearing…things that are sort of universally frowned upon in our culture. But, I don’t think the playing of video games needs to fall into that category, and I hope my children are clear about that.


Anyway, I struggled with this particular issue (whether to shut off our video games when friends are visiting) over the last couple of years, as it affected quite a few of my long-time friendships, and my children’s friendships. But I’m feeling pretty clear about it now. And we’ve made some great new (gaming-supportive) friends this year, which has helped.


I’m excitedly anticipating your feedback on what I’ve written – anything that will help me get clearer will be appreciated. Thank you!

Sandra Dodd

-=-I can see the need to support children in understanding that certain things should only be done in private when referring to something more potentially “offensive” like, say, nudity, or swearing…things that are sort of universally frowned upon in our culture. But, I don’t think the playing of video games needs to fall into that category, and I hope my children are clear about that.-=-

If your kids weren't clear about it, perhaps you could have presented the information differently earlier on. My kids always knew that it was an accommodation for guests, and that there were other things to do while they were there—swingset, water play, art projects, Lego, make-believe, board games.

My kids played boffers a lot (foam swords), from the time they were really tiny. When they had friends over whose parents are "against violent play," they didn't play boffers. Nor nerf guns. But I never suggested they keep secret that we did it other times. :-)

Sandra

Sarah Thompson

If kids are completely validated in their choices, I think they can understand extenuating circumstances without taking it personally. As my son is SUPER into gaming, we generally don't have friends over who can't game-we play elsewhere. Since home is the sanctuary for his passions, it *is* hard sometimes if I ask him not to use the computer while friends are here, so we talk about it in advance. If he really wants to spend time with someone who doesn't play on the computer, then gaming probably isn't their connection.

It *is* an issue when the kids who are limited are desperate to use it *because* of their restrictions, even if my kids are up for other activities. Those dates don't work at our house.

Sarah

Sandra Dodd

-=-It *is* an issue when the kids who are limited are desperate to use it *because* of their restrictions, even if my kids are up for other activities. Those dates don't work at our house.-=-

Oh, yes.
We had friends whose mom kept their TV locked up, so when they go to our house, if the TV was on, they couldn't get past the front room. So Kirby and Marty started reminding me beforehand, NOT to have the TV on. If it was off, the kids happily passed through that room to the kids' room, or the back yard.

It's scary to think of it, how totally trained they were TO watch TV, in a way. If it's on, you can watch it. If it's not on, you may not, it is forbidden.
I suppose it's the same way that "clean your plate" kids want ALL of the pie or cookies or ice cream if they're not given their one small portion, their two cookies, and the rest are hidden.

The kids who were allowed to eat or not eat (main course, vegetables, or fruit, or cookies) will not eat just because they see it.
My kids, who could watch or not watch, play or not play, did not stand mesmerized by a television in a public place or at someone else's house.

Sandra