Dealing with obsessive behavior.
boisei@...
Hi All,
I have two boys 13 and 10. Most things are going well. My 13 yo is happier than ever, most of the time, and my 10 yo is enganged and happy most of the time. There is, however, an elephant in the room.
It takes the form of my 10 yo, Quinn’s “schedule” (his term). He uses the toilet and showers after at specific times during the day whether he feels that he has to “go” or not. I think the clock is more important than his bowels or bladder. He will never use the toilet without showering (which is a bit inconvenient due to our ongoing drought in CA! I try to mitigate it anywhere I can). He feels that he is very dirty when he goes to the toilet. He will even say, if I happen to touch his leg while on the toilet, “oh my leg is dirty, you better wash”. He also relies on my husband and myself to wipe him after, because he is put off by the idea of it. He also needs to use the toilet before any transition to going out or if I am going to leave for a bit, or before he gets dressed. He spends most of his time in his pajamas. So he rarely does anything spur of the moment.
The schedule has been slowing becoming more and more extensive and important to Quinn. He gets very anxious if he has to be late, especially, for his evening times. We’ve been accommodating his needs since he started scheduling his bathroom time. We rarely go out as a family, Quinn doesn’t really like going out and doesn’t want to miss a bathroom time. We used to be able to go out at night ( for movies and things ) but even that has changed to accommodate his 7 and 9 pm bathroom times. My 13 yo, Griffin, really wants to go out more but during the day we don’t go because Quinn doesn’t want to be home alone. Griff and I often will go out after my Husband gets home. Griffin is usually fine with this, but I can tell he gets frustrated that we can’t get up and go. He also used to be a person who liked to stay home as Quinn does now.
I was assuming that the schedule was just another facet of Quinn’s exploration of control or something to that effect and it would pass over time. Just as Griffin’s previous desire to stay home or his slight germ fear stage did. My boys are similar in many ways.
I feel like I’m at a crossroads. I want Quinn to feel free to explore his need for a schedule, but it is really beginning to take a toll on the rest of us. I’d love to take a vacation, but there is no way we could leave the bathroom behind. It feels so restrictive to me to be bound by a schedule like that. If I try to talk to him about the schedule it feels like I’m being very demeaning if I refer to it as being in his head ,but reading about obsessive and compulsive behaviors, that is basically the therapy that is used to treat it. I’m not sure what to do next. Anyone with any advice about this?
Thanks, Melissa
Sandra Dodd
Don't make him feel guilty about drought; that won't help him OR the drought.
Maybe he'll be able to wipe easier if you get gloves for him. At Sally Beauty (and probably other places, but I know their stock on this) you can get latex or non-latex in boxes, so he could use singles or doubles. They're not in pairs, and will fit either hand—several sizes, too. I used to use them to pick up dog poop, and more recently for snails. Show him how to pull them off inside out so the dirty part is like in a trash bag already, and won't be touched by anyone.
In India, there are sprayers in some newer houses that people can use. MAYBE (maybe) a spray bottle with water to spritz before or after he wipes (or both) could prevent a full shower, and if not—I'd consider the showers a medical necessity and not worry about outside issues.
Others here might have better ideas, but it seems maybe you could tell him that when he's grown and has his own place, he can set his schedule however he wants to, but for now you have other obligations that keep you from being his fulltime assistant. It's really asking a lot, seems to me, for him to be setting arbitrary schedules in a home trying to get away from them.
Two stories that might be discouraging or encouraging, but they're data.
My husband is very methodical and regular but there are variations and seasons. For a few weeks he might wake up at the same time at night and go to the bathroom. Then for a while, sleeps through. Or when he was going to work, he always went to the toilet at the same time of day (within fifteen minutes) and when he was home, it didn't work the same way. So there might have been other triggers or factors. He thought about it, but we didn't do a full analysis. It was just a curiosity more than anything.
I have another friend who can't poop anywhere but his own home. He did, at my house, one time, and was fairly proud of himself for being able to do that. He was in his 30's. We talked about why, and what his feelings were about it. He was hugely disturbed by the idea that anyone might hear him, so when he went, I turned music up loud and made noises that indicated I was two rooms away, and other people in the house were off doing other things.
Those might or might not have useful clues, but there are people who grow up with oddities and live happy lives. :-)
I do hope things go easier for you, and if you need someone to talk to who won't say "put him in school; that will be $130," try someone here:
http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
Have you asked him how those particular times came about? I wouldn't demand a response—maybe something like "if you remember..." or "If you know why it seems that this needs to happen at 9:00, please let me know." Not in a demand for proof way, but just curious, conversational. Maybe he'll think about it in order to try to get back with you, and maybe the thinking itself will help him know some what and why. Even if he can't or won't tell you his thoughts, it might help him have more thoughts about it.
Or not. Nothing is going to work for everyone, or apply in every situation, I think.
Sandra
semajrak@...
I loved the bidets in Japan when we visited. I wished we had one at home! I did a quick search at Amazon just now, and there are personal portable bidets. Perhaps your son would be willing to try this and use one in place of a shower when he is away from home. Maybe he'd like to pick one out for himself.
I've shared this story before, but my son had a really hard time throwing out wrappers when he was younger. It felt very sentimental to him if he had touched something, and having it discarded made him feel incredibly sad. He told me he thought the wrapper was lonely. I don't know why he felt that way. I didn't ask or argue. I kept the wrappers and cans and boxes for a couple years (after washing them), storing them in boxes and baskets around the house. When we went on a longer trip, I saved his wrappers, and mailed them back to us in a box I picked up from a grocery store. The postage cost us $20 or something, but like Sandra says, that's way cheaper than therapy would have been later on, and it seemed so important to him.
Ethan outgrew the need to save things. I say outgrew. I don't really know what changed, or why he didn't feel the need to hold on to everything any more. I'm not sure what I would have done if it had gone on very long, but for that period of time, I was able to store his things without being inconvenienced. Just last night he told me that even in a game he likes to play he used to have a hard time using the potions and items he found because he was sad when they were gone. Similar mindset, it sounds like. Again, I'm not sure what changed for him, but I think our unconditional support and room to come to his own resolutions didn't hurt.
We talked with Ethan about what would work out best for him, and came to some solutions we could all live with. Perhaps that would work for your son and your family as well. Maybe setting timers on your phone and assuring him you'll do your best to not miss his scheduled washroom break would allow him to take small steps away from home, leading to bigger steps when he is ready.
Karen James
Jo Isaac
It may be a phase - how long has he been on his 'schedule'? If it's something you all feel willing to wait out for a while, maybe that is the best course of action at the moment, if you can manage to still get to outings and your older son isn't missing out because of it?
How does your son feel about his schedule? Does he feel anxious about it? Does he want it to stop? Does he feel like it's getting out of his control and stopping him doing things and going places? If it's feeling like a problem to him, i'd certainly consider talking to someone about it - one of the counselors or therapists on Sandra's page. I don't think you need to tell him it's 'all in his head' to discuss it? Just ask him how he feels about it?
My husband also suggests an unschooling friendly counselor. His brother didn't get counselling as a child, but has seen people about his ongoing OCD's as an adult and found it helpful - I think he wishes he had seen someone earlier.
K Pennell
From: "boisei@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, August 3, 2015 10:36 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Dealing with obsessive behavior.
Deb Lewis
Maybe it's something to do with growing up, finding the wider world less
stable and predictable than your life at home has been so far.
And I think lots of kids get worried about germs. Parents pull that germ
card a lot when they're trying to get their kids to always remember to wash
their hands after going potty, to not touch other people's things, to not
share their ice cream with the dog, etc., and one pretty logical consequence
of that is some can become overly grossed out by the knowledge germs are
everywhere. (Can you imagine how - was it Leeuwenhoek? - felt when he
discovered his drinking water was teaming with living creatures?)
When I took care of my mom who had dementia, and no sense of personal
hygiene, I became obsessed about disinfecting everything she might have
touched. I knew it was excessive, but I still did it. It may have been a
response to things that were out of my control, or it may have been stress
or tiredness contributing, but I understand that even something that's a
pain in the ass, can feel important. He's not wrong. Germs are everywhere.
You will leave some on your leg if you accidentally touch it.
If you can, without shaming or anger or accusation, sometimes point out that
no one else in the family has a schedule or showers after poo and they're
ok. If you press it, it could make him more insecure, but if you find a way
to talk about it matter-of-factly, you might help him think of things he
hadn't considered before.
Do you have funny and horrible poop stories from when he or his brother were
babies? Funny stories about pooping in the woods while camping. How many
shit idioms can you think of together: You can give someone shit. You won't
take any shit off anyone. You were so surprised you shit a brick. (Imagine
showering with bricks?) You can have a shit eating grin, or be in deep shit,
or beat the crap out of someone. I'm thinking if you can find ways (both of
you) to relax and think of funny shit, and crap, it might begin to bring
things into a more normal perspective. I think lots of people are weird in
the bathroom (weird or icky) it's that most we never know about. We know
about our kids (and old mothers) because we're in there with them. The rest
of us have blissful privacy in which we can be weird without witnesses.
It's an inconvenience for you now, and if it's a behavior that stays with
him forever it'll be an inconvenience for him. Lot's of people live with
inconvenience because on some level it makes them feel better. Some people
live with religious dietary or work restrictions, or other religious
rituals. We don't necessarily think of those as nutty, and lots of people
who do those things are otherwise normal and happy.
Probably it's something he'll work out. In the meantime there are personal
wipes that claim to kill germs. The expense might be worth the time saved in
showering. There are bidet attachments for regular toilets.
Deb Lewis
CASS KOTRBA
Erin & Keith
Is his schedule possibly about making sure you will be available?
My 6 year old son also still prefers that I wipe his butt. He can, but he finds it gross and worries about getting it clean. He's much more comfortable with me doing it. Even when he has to go badly he'll come running to find me first and let me know that he has to go before heading to the bathroom. This is to make sure I'm ready and waiting to wipe.
We bought flushable wet wipes for him, which seem to have helped him be a little more comfortable trying it on his own. (Somebody else mentioned rubber gloves which I may also get.) I don't mind doing it though if it makes him happy. I'm certain he won't want me to do it forever.
Maybe you can chat with him about wanting to get out of the house and ways to do that? And reassure him that you'll be available whenever he needs you.
I think you're definitely right that this issue will soon fade and pass. Hopefully you can all maintain peace and happiness in the meantime!
Erin
On Aug 3, 2015 11:31 PM, "boisei@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:Hi All,
I have two boys 13 and 10. Most things are going well. My 13 yo is happier than ever, most of the time, and my 10 yo is enganged and happy most of the time. There is, however, an elephant in the room.
It takes the form of my 10 yo, Quinn’s “schedule” (his term). He uses the toilet and showers after at specific times during the day whether he feels that he has to “go” or not. I think the clock is more important than his bowels or bladder. He will never use the toilet without showering (which is a bit inconvenient due to our ongoing drought in CA! I try to mitigate it anywhere I can). He feels that he is very dirty when he goes to the toilet. He will even say, if I happen to touch his leg while on the toilet, “oh my leg is dirty, you better wash”. He also relies on my husband and myself to wipe him after, because he is put off by the idea of it. He also needs to use the toilet before any transition to going out or if I am going to leave for a bit, or before he gets dressed. He spends most of his time in his pajamas. So he rarely does anything spur of the moment.
The schedule has been slowing becoming more and more extensive and important to Quinn. He gets very anxious if he has to be late, especially, for his evening times. We’ve been accommodating his needs since he started scheduling his bathroom time. We rarely go out as a family, Quinn doesn’t really like going out and doesn’t want to miss a bathroom time. We used to be able to go out at night ( for movies and things ) but even that has changed to accommodate his 7 and 9 pm bathroom times. My 13 yo, Griffin, really wants to go out more but during the day we don’t go because Quinn doesn’t want to be home alone. Griff and I often will go out after my Husband gets home. Griffin is usually fine with this, but I can tell he gets frustrated that we can’t get up and go. He also used to be a person who liked to stay home as Quinn does now.
I was assuming that the schedule was just another facet of Quinn’s exploration of control or something to that effect and it would pass over time. Just as Griffin’s previous desire to stay home or his slight germ fear stage did. My boys are similar in many ways.
I feel like I’m at a crossroads. I want Quinn to feel free to explore his need for a schedule, but it is really beginning to take a toll on the rest of us. I’d love to take a vacation, but there is no way we could leave the bathroom behind. It feels so restrictive to me to be bound by a schedule like that. If I try to talk to him about the schedule it feels like I’m being very demeaning if I refer to it as being in his head ,but reading about obsessive and compulsive behaviors, that is basically the therapy that is used to treat it. I’m not sure what to do next. Anyone with any advice about this?
Thanks, Melissa
saskiatm@...
anita_loomis@...
Sherry Grimes
Sherry ~ "What I am is good enough, if I would only be it openly." ~ Carl Rogers
"I’d love to take a vacation, but there is no way we could leave the bathroom behind."
Sandra Dodd
Are you thinking that unschooling should be about academics only?
If a family has two children and one is inconveniencing another (in any way, for any reason) the parents will need to figure out a way to accommodate both of them as far as possible, so that both can be learning, exploring, having a range of options.
Are you new enough, perhaps, that you're not aware of the importance of relationships between and among family members, for unschooling to really work?
If you could ask a question in such a way that it's not just a statement and a request for us to fill you in on EVERYthing, that would help your thought process and probably get you better responses, too.
Sandra
Alex & Brian Polikowsky
Sent from my iPhone