Re: [AlwaysLearning] re.help with responding
Melinda
Dear Ones,
I appreciate that there are various points of view
here re. what may be the "reality" of the situation.
I'd like to address some of the specifics of this post
because they sum up some of the issues in the relating
ones.
Please don't take offense, Amy. Since we just met, ;
*) I'd hate to offend you.
I tend to be Direct. Having been a victim of family
"concern" has lead me to be rather pro-active in
addressing this issue.
My comments follow ***
Melinda
family, you have Very Limited knowledge of what goes
on in the home. A neighbor's knowledge. You can't
possibly know what living there is like.
I think that household chores are a fine place to
start learning responsibility. Unless they become
wealthy enough to hire servants, all children will be
doing chores for the rest of their lives. This IS
real learning.
You mention that this is the only "schooling" they
get. I am an unschooler. I don't want to provide
"schooling" for my children. If you mean that that's
the only learning that is taking place, I'd say that
unless the children are locked in closets that is
Impossible.
Learning happens constantly. That they are not
learning what you or I or anyone else thinks is
"appropriate" is not "child abuse". And who are you
or I or anyone else to make that Judgment in the first
place?
I realize that some unschoolers believe that our
choice is only for the "right" kind of parents. Those
with "good" educations, nurturing "mom" personas, and
enough cash to provide ample "stimulation" and
exposure to "opportunity".
I have placed " " around those words because I think
that they are all about personal judgment. Which is
something I become less and less tolerant of the older
I get. (How ironic is that? <grin>).
I flatly reject that point of view.
I firmly believe that children that are physically or
emotionally abused should receive intervention as
prescribed by law. Even child advocates will tell you
that the removal of a child from their parents is
,short of death, about the most harmful action that
can be done to a child.
So let's be very, very careful that we don't injure
those we aim to protect in the name of "appropriate
homeschooling".
Abused children need to be aided and protected and
sometimes completely removed from their parents
forever. Yes, obviously.
But government agencies ought to be spending their
time on enforcing the laws that protect abused
children. They oughtn't be used to interfere with a
family simply because they don't "measure up" to the
standards of another.
Maybe those children have long conversations with
their parents regarding the weather, the formation of
ant hills and wasp nests, politics, dad's job, current
events, what causes the seasons to change, why the
neighbors go-go-go all the time and they don't ...
Who knows? Only they do.
That they or any children are "better off" confined
to a single building 180 days a year, age-segregated,
vulnerable to bullies and (often) apathetic teachers
and administrators, who will daily assess their value
with numbers and letters, monitor their every move, be
inflexible to their changing interests, require them
to ask to use the restroom, rush them through gobbling
down their lunch, arbitrarily enforce their silence
and attention, show them no individual respect and
attempt to quash their very uniqueness and mold them
into a "productive citizen" in accordance with
whatever the prevailing methods and systems are
currently eschewed by the head educrats ... is a
belief that I will never be sold on.
It counters everything I personally know to be true:
-Children, all humans, have innate curiosity that
flourishes in an environment of freedom.
-Institutions are about producing products, not about
growing children.
and the parents don't incorporate
adapt methods that were created for an environment
they are not in? Those methods are part of a system
that they have elected not to participate in.
For that matter,what is creative? Making dinner is
creative. Painting a room and arranging furniture is
creative. Making castles out of mud in the backyard
is creative. Having a boat parade in your bathtub is
creative. Coloring outside the lines is creative.
Taking information and forming a question about
potential outcomes is creative.
A take-charge attitude is a take charge attitude. It
may or may not assist in learning. Manipulatives and
books and art supplies are all just that. They may or
may not lead to forming creative thoughts and
pursuits.
Without "educational" toys, children are very good at
using their fingers, verbal story telling and writing
on walls. Creativity is virtually indestructible.
Inspiration is everywhere. Adults realize the power
of Nature. Adults pay big bucks to go do "nothing" in
the mountains, at the beach, on a lake.
Again, unless they are locked up,(as they'd be in
school), all children are constantly learning. Maybe
they are learning about the bugs in the backyard.
Maybe they are learning about what's going on in the
world as CNN plays all day, maybe they are bored and
spend hours creating stories in their minds. When
they leave home, maybe they will become ornothologists
or investigative reporters or novelists.
We don't know.
Most adults hone in on one or two interests that they
spend their lives pursuing. A home that has TV and
internet access pretty much has opened up the world
for its' children.
Are the parents not responsive to the children? Do
they ignore their questions? Meet them with silence.
Probably not. If they are not ideal, are they less
caring than the foster parents they are likely to end
up with ... or the classroom teachers they'll be
shuffled among? How much time and attention could
those children expect to receive from the alternatives
the government can provide?
they just use the
Is "slaves" really accurate? Or do they make them
take out the trash, get the mail, feed the pets, fetch
dad's beers ?
Maybe they parent inconsiderately. They are rude
obnoxious people. Do they arbitrarily demand More
than a school would. Do they offer less care and love
than a paid stranger would?
In judging any situation, considering the alternatives
has to be factored in.
Very few children are better off in the government's
care- during or after "school hours".
Are some individuals more worthy of "Mother of the
Year" honors? Yes.
Do some kids get a wider variety of experiences that
may lead them to more options in their learning? Yes.
Do we, as individuals, have the right and
responsibility to provide our children with the best
that is available to us? Yes.
Does that mean we have the right to judge and attempt
to force our particular ways and means on others we
deem "less than the best" ? No.
Not in my view.
My view is that intelligent people recognize that
acknowledging and accepting diversity is an evolved
trait.
And that compassion is more productive than
persecution.
If one is interested in the lack of experiences
offered to a child, offering to provide alternatives
is a positive action.
Whether by a grandma or neighbor.
If grandma is really interested in the children
learning, she could ask the parents in what way she
might assist within the family's parameter's. Can she
pay for a zoo membership, National Geographic
subscription, movie passes, dance lessons? Will she
babysit on a regular basis so that mom can recharge
her batteries? A neighbor can invite the children
over to help bake cookies or make holiday cards or
play legos. If she is really interested in the
children's best interests.
In 11 years of homeschooling- on and off in the early
years- and after 2 years of full time substitute
teaching at a wide variety of schools k-12 in a Large
urban/suburban school system ... I have come to the
conclusion that MOST of the time criticism is leveled
against homeschooling/unschooling parents ... that
those making the judgments are doing so out of ego
rather than concern.
Grandmas tend to ease away from "concern" when given
the option of contributing resources to the children's
learning opportunities and neighbors/friends always
have some area of contention regarding how the other
does it "wrong". This is not particular to
homeschoolers- though we are easier and more likely
targets. And tend to want all our cohorts to make us
look good so we don't have to defend ourselves to
outsiders.
Granparents see homeschooling as a double rejection.
invalidating what they lived and the choice they made
for their own children. If you are right; they must
have been wrong. If you are doing better; they are
less-than as parents.
It is a ridiculous dichotomy to employ. But they do
and they attempt to redeem themselves by denigrating
you.
For those of you with parents able to utilize logic
and critical thinking skills ... be grateful. Some
of us have children with grandparents who are so well
indoctrinated ... that we will forever be viewed as
"neglectful" due to our choice to not "educate" our
children. I imagine that my mother will someday
breathe a sigh of relief that my children managed to
have such "successful" lives despite the poor
upbringing I gave them. I know that the possibility
that their brightness may actually be Connected to our
lack of schooling ... is not one she will Ever
entertain.
The mother used to visit us
It's hard to be embarrassed if you think the other
person isn't judging you. Maybe she hasn't been back
because she knows what you think of her. People tend
not to socialize with those who look down on them.
I have often thought of contacting someone
I
business to contact authorities.
Nothing prevents you from being compassionate,
friendly, helpful and caring toward the children. Or
the parents. If you so choose.
Again, please don't take this personally. I have had
conversations re. homeschoolers that make choices that
I don't.
There is a woman in a group that I used to be involved
with that keeps a house that would not pass a health
inspection. Numerous pets, little care to clean-up,
etc... IMO, it is really BAD. In the opinions of
every other mom in my group who discussed it, it is
BAD. Even tour children think it is BAD. Are they
abusive? No. The family spends lots of money, which
they have a good supply of, on activities/lessons for
their 7 children. The children are bright and
interesting. But, the house is an unqualified MESS.
Turning her into authorities for the mess was brought
up among those of us who discussed the situation. It
was quickly eliminated as a possibility. This is a
happy family living in a very filthy home. I wouldn't
have lunch there, but they are not criminals.
Today, I wouldn't even consider that kind of
interference. It is much easier to criticize than to
compassionately act, but why? Who benefits?
Certainly not the children.
Unless the critical one is Genuinely interested in
providing -welcomed- assistance, I find it
exceptionally easy to call a spade a spade.
He/she/they aren't doing it your way, Grandma? So
what! MYOB.The best advice Ann Landers ever gave.
Melinda
=====
: D Melinda
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
I appreciate that there are various points of view
here re. what may be the "reality" of the situation.
I'd like to address some of the specifics of this post
because they sum up some of the issues in the relating
ones.
Please don't take offense, Amy. Since we just met, ;
*) I'd hate to offend you.
I tend to be Direct. Having been a victim of family
"concern" has lead me to be rather pro-active in
addressing this issue.
My comments follow ***
Melinda
>*** How do you "know"? Unless you move in with the
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:56:03 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Amy Thomlinson <diamond_h2o@...>
> Subject: Re: help with responding
>
> I do know a family around where I live that has an 8
> year old boy and a 5 year old girl and the parents
> "homeschool", but I know that the only schooling the
> kids get is from chores such as feeding the dog and
> folding laundry
family, you have Very Limited knowledge of what goes
on in the home. A neighbor's knowledge. You can't
possibly know what living there is like.
I think that household chores are a fine place to
start learning responsibility. Unless they become
wealthy enough to hire servants, all children will be
doing chores for the rest of their lives. This IS
real learning.
You mention that this is the only "schooling" they
get. I am an unschooler. I don't want to provide
"schooling" for my children. If you mean that that's
the only learning that is taking place, I'd say that
unless the children are locked in closets that is
Impossible.
Learning happens constantly. That they are not
learning what you or I or anyone else thinks is
"appropriate" is not "child abuse". And who are you
or I or anyone else to make that Judgment in the first
place?
I realize that some unschoolers believe that our
choice is only for the "right" kind of parents. Those
with "good" educations, nurturing "mom" personas, and
enough cash to provide ample "stimulation" and
exposure to "opportunity".
I have placed " " around those words because I think
that they are all about personal judgment. Which is
something I become less and less tolerant of the older
I get. (How ironic is that? <grin>).
I flatly reject that point of view.
I firmly believe that children that are physically or
emotionally abused should receive intervention as
prescribed by law. Even child advocates will tell you
that the removal of a child from their parents is
,short of death, about the most harmful action that
can be done to a child.
So let's be very, very careful that we don't injure
those we aim to protect in the name of "appropriate
homeschooling".
Abused children need to be aided and protected and
sometimes completely removed from their parents
forever. Yes, obviously.
But government agencies ought to be spending their
time on enforcing the laws that protect abused
children. They oughtn't be used to interfere with a
family simply because they don't "measure up" to the
standards of another.
Maybe those children have long conversations with
their parents regarding the weather, the formation of
ant hills and wasp nests, politics, dad's job, current
events, what causes the seasons to change, why the
neighbors go-go-go all the time and they don't ...
Who knows? Only they do.
That they or any children are "better off" confined
to a single building 180 days a year, age-segregated,
vulnerable to bullies and (often) apathetic teachers
and administrators, who will daily assess their value
with numbers and letters, monitor their every move, be
inflexible to their changing interests, require them
to ask to use the restroom, rush them through gobbling
down their lunch, arbitrarily enforce their silence
and attention, show them no individual respect and
attempt to quash their very uniqueness and mold them
into a "productive citizen" in accordance with
whatever the prevailing methods and systems are
currently eschewed by the head educrats ... is a
belief that I will never be sold on.
It counters everything I personally know to be true:
-Children, all humans, have innate curiosity that
flourishes in an environment of freedom.
-Institutions are about producing products, not about
growing children.
and the parents don't incorporate
> any***Why should they? Why should they be expected to
> creative teaching methods into it
adapt methods that were created for an environment
they are not in? Those methods are part of a system
that they have elected not to participate in.
For that matter,what is creative? Making dinner is
creative. Painting a room and arranging furniture is
creative. Making castles out of mud in the backyard
is creative. Having a boat parade in your bathtub is
creative. Coloring outside the lines is creative.
Taking information and forming a question about
potential outcomes is creative.
A take-charge attitude is a take charge attitude. It
may or may not assist in learning. Manipulatives and
books and art supplies are all just that. They may or
may not lead to forming creative thoughts and
pursuits.
Without "educational" toys, children are very good at
using their fingers, verbal story telling and writing
on walls. Creativity is virtually indestructible.
Inspiration is everywhere. Adults realize the power
of Nature. Adults pay big bucks to go do "nothing" in
the mountains, at the beach, on a lake.
Again, unless they are locked up,(as they'd be in
school), all children are constantly learning. Maybe
they are learning about the bugs in the backyard.
Maybe they are learning about what's going on in the
world as CNN plays all day, maybe they are bored and
spend hours creating stories in their minds. When
they leave home, maybe they will become ornothologists
or investigative reporters or novelists.
We don't know.
Most adults hone in on one or two interests that they
spend their lives pursuing. A home that has TV and
internet access pretty much has opened up the world
for its' children.
Are the parents not responsive to the children? Do
they ignore their questions? Meet them with silence.
Probably not. If they are not ideal, are they less
caring than the foster parents they are likely to end
up with ... or the classroom teachers they'll be
shuffled among? How much time and attention could
those children expect to receive from the alternatives
the government can provide?
they just use the
> kids as little slaves.***They beat and chain them? Starve and demean them?
Is "slaves" really accurate? Or do they make them
take out the trash, get the mail, feed the pets, fetch
dad's beers ?
Maybe they parent inconsiderately. They are rude
obnoxious people. Do they arbitrarily demand More
than a school would. Do they offer less care and love
than a paid stranger would?
In judging any situation, considering the alternatives
has to be factored in.
Very few children are better off in the government's
care- during or after "school hours".
Are some individuals more worthy of "Mother of the
Year" honors? Yes.
Do some kids get a wider variety of experiences that
may lead them to more options in their learning? Yes.
Do we, as individuals, have the right and
responsibility to provide our children with the best
that is available to us? Yes.
Does that mean we have the right to judge and attempt
to force our particular ways and means on others we
deem "less than the best" ? No.
Not in my view.
My view is that intelligent people recognize that
acknowledging and accepting diversity is an evolved
trait.
And that compassion is more productive than
persecution.
If one is interested in the lack of experiences
offered to a child, offering to provide alternatives
is a positive action.
Whether by a grandma or neighbor.
If grandma is really interested in the children
learning, she could ask the parents in what way she
might assist within the family's parameter's. Can she
pay for a zoo membership, National Geographic
subscription, movie passes, dance lessons? Will she
babysit on a regular basis so that mom can recharge
her batteries? A neighbor can invite the children
over to help bake cookies or make holiday cards or
play legos. If she is really interested in the
children's best interests.
In 11 years of homeschooling- on and off in the early
years- and after 2 years of full time substitute
teaching at a wide variety of schools k-12 in a Large
urban/suburban school system ... I have come to the
conclusion that MOST of the time criticism is leveled
against homeschooling/unschooling parents ... that
those making the judgments are doing so out of ego
rather than concern.
Grandmas tend to ease away from "concern" when given
the option of contributing resources to the children's
learning opportunities and neighbors/friends always
have some area of contention regarding how the other
does it "wrong". This is not particular to
homeschoolers- though we are easier and more likely
targets. And tend to want all our cohorts to make us
look good so we don't have to defend ourselves to
outsiders.
Granparents see homeschooling as a double rejection.
invalidating what they lived and the choice they made
for their own children. If you are right; they must
have been wrong. If you are doing better; they are
less-than as parents.
It is a ridiculous dichotomy to employ. But they do
and they attempt to redeem themselves by denigrating
you.
For those of you with parents able to utilize logic
and critical thinking skills ... be grateful. Some
of us have children with grandparents who are so well
indoctrinated ... that we will forever be viewed as
"neglectful" due to our choice to not "educate" our
children. I imagine that my mother will someday
breathe a sigh of relief that my children managed to
have such "successful" lives despite the poor
upbringing I gave them. I know that the possibility
that their brightness may actually be Connected to our
lack of schooling ... is not one she will Ever
entertain.
The mother used to visit us
> all the time when my kids were little but the last***Are you sure this is why she hasn't been back?
> time she visited my 3 year old wrote his name on the
> wall and she was embarrassed because her kids
> didn't
> know how to write their names yet so she hasn't been
> back.
It's hard to be embarrassed if you think the other
person isn't judging you. Maybe she hasn't been back
because she knows what you think of her. People tend
not to socialize with those who look down on them.
I have often thought of contacting someone
> about the situation (I know what goes on because I***Unless you know more than you've written here-YES.
> live next door to this family) but would the
> consequences be worse than the problem now.
I
> finallyUnless they are comitting criminal acts, it isn't your
> just decided it wasn't my business and since they
> stay
> away from us I don't worry about it anymore
business to contact authorities.
Nothing prevents you from being compassionate,
friendly, helpful and caring toward the children. Or
the parents. If you so choose.
Again, please don't take this personally. I have had
conversations re. homeschoolers that make choices that
I don't.
There is a woman in a group that I used to be involved
with that keeps a house that would not pass a health
inspection. Numerous pets, little care to clean-up,
etc... IMO, it is really BAD. In the opinions of
every other mom in my group who discussed it, it is
BAD. Even tour children think it is BAD. Are they
abusive? No. The family spends lots of money, which
they have a good supply of, on activities/lessons for
their 7 children. The children are bright and
interesting. But, the house is an unqualified MESS.
Turning her into authorities for the mess was brought
up among those of us who discussed the situation. It
was quickly eliminated as a possibility. This is a
happy family living in a very filthy home. I wouldn't
have lunch there, but they are not criminals.
Today, I wouldn't even consider that kind of
interference. It is much easier to criticize than to
compassionately act, but why? Who benefits?
Certainly not the children.
Unless the critical one is Genuinely interested in
providing -welcomed- assistance, I find it
exceptionally easy to call a spade a spade.
He/she/they aren't doing it your way, Grandma? So
what! MYOB.The best advice Ann Landers ever gave.
Melinda
=====
: D Melinda
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Dana Matt
HAve to say, I loved your letter...
invalidating what they lived and the choice they made
for their own children. If you are right; they must
have been wrong. If you are doing better; they are
less-than as parents.
It is a ridiculous dichotomy to employ. But they do
and they attempt to redeem themselves by denigrating
you.
For those of you with parents able to utilize logic
and critical thinking skills ... be grateful. Some
of us have children with grandparents who are so well
indoctrinated ... that we will forever be viewed as
"neglectful" due to our choice to not "educate" our
children. I imagine that my mother will someday
breathe a sigh of relief that my children managed to
have such "successful" lives despite the poor
upbringing I gave them. I know that the possibility
that their brightness may actually be Connected to our
lack of schooling ... is not one she will Ever
entertain. >>>>>
It's not just unschooling....it's breastfeeding,
vegetarianism, non-vaccinating, and numerous other
parenting decisions we make every day. My MIL
screamed at me when I refused to give my daughter her
first set of shots...9 years or so ago, and told me
she would be dead by the time she was two. She has
told me that breastfeeding is only for people too
stupid to sterilize bottles. She has told me that
wearing a baby in a sling makes one look like an
"African or a poor person". She insists on serving
meat for every meal we share with them. If *I* am
doing what I think is right, then what she did must be
*wrong*, or at least I must think it is, and that IS
very threatening to her. This is what I see to be the
biggest problem with explaining my choices to
people--they often times take it as a personal affront
to THEIR choices. I am so glad to see you mention
this--it rings so true!
I had an acquaintance come to me with questions about
homeschooling, because his 6 yo daughter was having
problems with the teacher. I didn't see him again for
a couple of months, and when I saw him again I asked
about his daughter. They had supposedly worked out
the problems, and wanted to know if we were still
homeschooling. When I said yes, he got quite
outraged, saying "Oh, it's good enough for MY kids,
but not for yours? Do you think you're better than
us?" He came to ME about homeschooling, but now I was
the "bad guy" because he had chosed something
differnt, and he saw me "judging" his choice...
Dana
Montana Mama
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
>>>>Granparents see homeschooling as a double rejection.
invalidating what they lived and the choice they made
for their own children. If you are right; they must
have been wrong. If you are doing better; they are
less-than as parents.
It is a ridiculous dichotomy to employ. But they do
and they attempt to redeem themselves by denigrating
you.
For those of you with parents able to utilize logic
and critical thinking skills ... be grateful. Some
of us have children with grandparents who are so well
indoctrinated ... that we will forever be viewed as
"neglectful" due to our choice to not "educate" our
children. I imagine that my mother will someday
breathe a sigh of relief that my children managed to
have such "successful" lives despite the poor
upbringing I gave them. I know that the possibility
that their brightness may actually be Connected to our
lack of schooling ... is not one she will Ever
entertain. >>>>>
It's not just unschooling....it's breastfeeding,
vegetarianism, non-vaccinating, and numerous other
parenting decisions we make every day. My MIL
screamed at me when I refused to give my daughter her
first set of shots...9 years or so ago, and told me
she would be dead by the time she was two. She has
told me that breastfeeding is only for people too
stupid to sterilize bottles. She has told me that
wearing a baby in a sling makes one look like an
"African or a poor person". She insists on serving
meat for every meal we share with them. If *I* am
doing what I think is right, then what she did must be
*wrong*, or at least I must think it is, and that IS
very threatening to her. This is what I see to be the
biggest problem with explaining my choices to
people--they often times take it as a personal affront
to THEIR choices. I am so glad to see you mention
this--it rings so true!
I had an acquaintance come to me with questions about
homeschooling, because his 6 yo daughter was having
problems with the teacher. I didn't see him again for
a couple of months, and when I saw him again I asked
about his daughter. They had supposedly worked out
the problems, and wanted to know if we were still
homeschooling. When I said yes, he got quite
outraged, saying "Oh, it's good enough for MY kids,
but not for yours? Do you think you're better than
us?" He came to ME about homeschooling, but now I was
the "bad guy" because he had chosed something
differnt, and he saw me "judging" his choice...
Dana
Montana Mama
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
melinda2u
--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., Dana Matt <hoffmanwilson@y...> wrote:
Oh yeah, Dana.
I'd like to add home birth and allowing children to pick their own
clothes to
the list.
Regarding nursing ... My mother actually suggested that
breastfeeding my
son might "make him gay". That's when he was 6 weeks old! He's 16
now
and the girlfriends that call constantly tend to make me think she
missed the
call on that one.
After marrying into a family where everyone nursed their babies, she
decided
that it was OK. Now that it's en vogue, it's a "good thing".
Some people learn a lot from the system. They learn that presenting
a
fascade of "normalcy" is the Ultimate Goal. Once you realize that's
what
makes them tick, it is easy to not be bothered.
To never own your own life ... how pathetic is that.
> HAve to say, I loved your letter...:*D
>
> It's not just unschooling....it's breastfeeding,
> vegetarianism, non-vaccinating, and numerous other
> parenting decisions we make every day.
Oh yeah, Dana.
I'd like to add home birth and allowing children to pick their own
clothes to
the list.
Regarding nursing ... My mother actually suggested that
breastfeeding my
son might "make him gay". That's when he was 6 weeks old! He's 16
now
and the girlfriends that call constantly tend to make me think she
missed the
call on that one.
After marrying into a family where everyone nursed their babies, she
decided
that it was OK. Now that it's en vogue, it's a "good thing".
Some people learn a lot from the system. They learn that presenting
a
fascade of "normalcy" is the Ultimate Goal. Once you realize that's
what
makes them tick, it is easy to not be bothered.
To never own your own life ... how pathetic is that.
Dana Matt
> Oh yeah, Dana.No joke--I'm having an unassisted birth any day now,
>
> I'd like to add home birth and allowing children to
> pick their own
> clothes to
> the list.
and you'd think I actually had plans to murder my
child...Needless to say, I don't listen to is any
more.
> Regarding nursing ... My mother actually suggestedI'm not sure how a male having an appreciation for
> that
> breastfeeding my
> son might "make him gay
breasts could ever equal "Gay", but WHATEVER, mom! ;P
Once
> you realize that'sA couple of years ago, my FIL took a doll away from my
> what
> makes them tick, it is easy to not be bothered.
>
> To never own your own life ... how pathetic is that.
>
SIL's little boy (he was 3) and gave it to my daughter
(the same age), and said he wasn't "allowed" to play
with dolls. When I asked WTF?, he said "Oh, the
neighbors will make fun of him!" That gave me all the
insight into my PIL that I ever needed! It doesn't
matter what you want, it matters HOW IT LOOKS TO THE
NEIGHBORS! (And they live in the country and have NO
NEIGHBORS, but that's beside the point...) Yes, "to
never own your own life....how pathetic is that".
VERY TRUE!!!
Dana
Montana Mama
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/12/02 12:59:00 PM, hoffmanwilson@... writes:
<< My MIL
screamed at me when I refused to give my daughter her
first set of shots...9 years or so ago, and told me
she would be dead by the time she was two. She has
told me that breastfeeding is only for people too
stupid to sterilize bottles. She has told me that
wearing a baby in a sling makes one look like an
"African or a poor person". >>
EEEEEEEK!!!! I thought MY Mother-in-law was bad!!
OH my gosh.
At least with the threat of "they'll never learn to read if you don't teach
them," I get the 'kiss my butt' moment when they DO read. And even if they
didn't, and they read at some adult remedial reading center (I'M JUST
EXAGGERATING, nobody become alarmed) it's not the same as the curse of "dead
by two" or "too stupid to sterilize bottles."
MY my my.
You might have the prize-winning scary mother-in-law.
Sandra
<< My MIL
screamed at me when I refused to give my daughter her
first set of shots...9 years or so ago, and told me
she would be dead by the time she was two. She has
told me that breastfeeding is only for people too
stupid to sterilize bottles. She has told me that
wearing a baby in a sling makes one look like an
"African or a poor person". >>
EEEEEEEK!!!! I thought MY Mother-in-law was bad!!
OH my gosh.
At least with the threat of "they'll never learn to read if you don't teach
them," I get the 'kiss my butt' moment when they DO read. And even if they
didn't, and they read at some adult remedial reading center (I'M JUST
EXAGGERATING, nobody become alarmed) it's not the same as the curse of "dead
by two" or "too stupid to sterilize bottles."
MY my my.
You might have the prize-winning scary mother-in-law.
Sandra
Pam Hartley
I already wrote to Melinda privately, but I have to say publicly that this
is one of the best posts I've read in months. Words fail me, I'm glad they
didn't fail Melinda.
Pam "fan club" Hartley
----------
From: Melinda <melinda2u@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] re.help with responding
Date: Wed, Jun 12, 2002, 11:27 AM
*** How do you "know"? Unless you move in with the
family, you have Very Limited knowledge of what goes
on in the home. A neighbor's knowledge. You can't
possibly know what living there is like.
etc...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
is one of the best posts I've read in months. Words fail me, I'm glad they
didn't fail Melinda.
Pam "fan club" Hartley
----------
From: Melinda <melinda2u@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] re.help with responding
Date: Wed, Jun 12, 2002, 11:27 AM
*** How do you "know"? Unless you move in with the
family, you have Very Limited knowledge of what goes
on in the home. A neighbor's knowledge. You can't
possibly know what living there is like.
etc...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<< *** How do you "know"? Unless you move in with the
family, you have Very Limited knowledge of what goes
on in the home. A neighbor's knowledge. You can't
possibly know what living there is like.
the court, who cries so loudly we can hear it from our house. When Holly
visited once, the girls were locked IN the girl's bedroom with a mean
full-grown Husky, and nobody rushed to save them.
We only have a neighbor's knowledge of the family behind us, with the
swimming pool and the several little kids and lots of cousins and guests.
When company's there, the kids are yelled at worse than any kids should be.
When company's NOT there, they're full-on abusive, cussing them out and
insulting their native intelligence and honesty about the least little thing.
The kids have been mean to Holly as she passes by. I wonder where they get
that?
We have a neighbor's knowledge of the kids next door. They're rarely playing
outside. They had a puppy but he was never allowed inside. He was chained
in the yard for months and months, looking so sad we thought of stealing him
but they might notice. A German Shepherd mix. When he was tiny they played
with him lots. When he was grown, they hardly seemed to feed him. Holly has
visited and had their mid-of-three over, but the conversation starts over
every time, and it scares Holly like the Twlight Zone. "Where do you go to
school?" "I don't."... every time, the same.
It's just neighbor's knowledge, but it's real.
Sandra
family, you have Very Limited knowledge of what goes
on in the home. A neighbor's knowledge. You can't
possibly know what living there is like.
>>I liked it too, but we have a neighbor's knowledge of the little girl across
the court, who cries so loudly we can hear it from our house. When Holly
visited once, the girls were locked IN the girl's bedroom with a mean
full-grown Husky, and nobody rushed to save them.
We only have a neighbor's knowledge of the family behind us, with the
swimming pool and the several little kids and lots of cousins and guests.
When company's there, the kids are yelled at worse than any kids should be.
When company's NOT there, they're full-on abusive, cussing them out and
insulting their native intelligence and honesty about the least little thing.
The kids have been mean to Holly as she passes by. I wonder where they get
that?
We have a neighbor's knowledge of the kids next door. They're rarely playing
outside. They had a puppy but he was never allowed inside. He was chained
in the yard for months and months, looking so sad we thought of stealing him
but they might notice. A German Shepherd mix. When he was tiny they played
with him lots. When he was grown, they hardly seemed to feed him. Holly has
visited and had their mid-of-three over, but the conversation starts over
every time, and it scares Holly like the Twlight Zone. "Where do you go to
school?" "I don't."... every time, the same.
It's just neighbor's knowledge, but it's real.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/12/02 1:30:42 PM Central Daylight Time,
melinda2u@... writes:
This was so clearly stated! Great statement. I've saved it and will cart it
out whenever a critic bugs me. Thanks.
pax.
Athena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
melinda2u@... writes:
> That they or any children are "better off" confinedMelinda,
> to a single building 180 days a year, age-segregated,
> vulnerable to bullies and (often) apathetic teachers
> and administrators, who will daily assess their value
> with numbers and letters, monitor their every move, be
> inflexible to their changing interests, require them
> to ask to use the restroom, rush them through gobbling
> down their lunch, arbitrarily enforce their silence
> and attention, show them no individual respect and
> attempt to quash their very uniqueness and mold them
> into a "productive citizen" in accordance with
> whatever the prevailing methods and systems are
> currently eschewed by the head educrats ... is a
> belief that I will never be sold on.
This was so clearly stated! Great statement. I've saved it and will cart it
out whenever a critic bugs me. Thanks.
pax.
Athena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Amy Thomlinson
>I know because the mother cannot read or write and she
>
> >
> > Message: 8
> > Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:56:03 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Amy Thomlinson <diamond_h2o@...>
> > Subject: Re: help with responding
> >
> > I do know a family around where I live that has an
> 8
> > year old boy and a 5 year old girl and the parents
> > "homeschool", but I know that the only schooling
> the
> > kids get is from chores such as feeding the dog
> and
> > folding laundry
>
> *** How do you "know"? Unless you move in with the
> family, you have Very Limited knowledge of what goes
> on in the home. A neighbor's knowledge. You can't
> possibly know what living there is like.
never reads to the kids, never takes them to the
library the family doesn't have a computer or
television, they don't have field trips because the
family has no car and in the homeschool lesson plans
we have to fill out in Missouri her husband makes up
stuff that the kids do all day. He says he doesn't
believe in school because the government brainwashes
children there. So there is probably learning about
how to fold laundry and wash dishes but since the wife
and kids never leave the house except to go to church
I have a difficult time finding ways the kids would
learn things such as the monetary system etc.>
>house and on sundays they go to church where children
> You mention that this is the only "schooling" they
> get. I am an unschooler. I don't want to provide
> "schooling" for my children. If you mean that
> that's
> the only learning that is taking place, I'd say that
> unless the children are locked in closets that is
> Impossible. The children spend 24/6 locked in a
are seen and not heard. They are not allowed to go
outside and play because they might get dirty and I
might read them a book---something I have done before
and been lectured to for over an hour that if the
father wants his kids brainwashed by those books he
would read them to the kids himself.
>Like I said I haven't turned them over to DFS but I
> Learning happens constantly. That they are not
> learning what you or I or anyone else thinks is
> "appropriate" is not "child abuse". And who are
> you
> or I or anyone else to make that Judgment in the
> first
> place?
assume that someday someone probably will.
I live in a neighborhood full of homeschoolers
because our school system doesn't work. We have
fundamental christian homeschoolers, 3 unschooling
families, a family that uses strict curriculum much
like school but done by the parents. All of the
children in those families seem like "normal kids"
Then there is the "other family" The kids act like 2
year olds. They fall on the ground and throw a fits
banging fists etc they scream all hours of the day
and night loud enough for neighbors to be concerned
when they used to come to my house I had to "baby
proof" my house before they got there because they
didn't understand how to interact and function in a
setting other than their own home. It was like
having two babies in my house but their motor skills
are well developed. If the children were diagnosed
with a learning disability I would understand, but
they appear that they would be normal if they were
allowed.
I am an unschooler I consider learning schooling
because I have to document all the hours my children
learn and we call it school although we have no set
hours or books or anything else Just a lesson plan
and a journal required by Missouri. You haven't
offended me but you have to realize that some places
have people that really do not want their children
exposed to learning because as long as the children
don't learn how to function outside of the home/church
the parents and church can control them better. My
whole point to the original story being that maybe the
mother so wants to control her children she fails to
help them learn.
>I have been turned into the DFS many times because I
own exotic animals and people think that snakes and
spiders are more dangerous to my children than dogs or
cats would be, so I know what it is like to have the
government try to take my children away so I don't
take turning families in for things lightly.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Betsy
OH!!!!
Well, if they play Monopoly they'll learn a bit about money, but they
might end up believing that five dollar bills are pink.
Betsy
P.S. (I never imagined an illiterate parent trying to homeschool.)
**I know because the mother cannot read or write and she
never reads to the kids, never takes them to the
library the family doesn't have a computer or
television, they don't have field trips because the
family has no car and in the homeschool lesson plans
we have to fill out in Missouri her husband makes up
stuff that the kids do all day. He says he doesn't
believe in school because the government brainwashes
children there. So there is probably learning about
how to fold laundry and wash dishes but since the wife
and kids never leave the house except to go to church
I have a difficult time finding ways the kids would
learn things such as the monetary system etc.> **
Well, if they play Monopoly they'll learn a bit about money, but they
might end up believing that five dollar bills are pink.
Betsy
P.S. (I never imagined an illiterate parent trying to homeschool.)
**I know because the mother cannot read or write and she
never reads to the kids, never takes them to the
library the family doesn't have a computer or
television, they don't have field trips because the
family has no car and in the homeschool lesson plans
we have to fill out in Missouri her husband makes up
stuff that the kids do all day. He says he doesn't
believe in school because the government brainwashes
children there. So there is probably learning about
how to fold laundry and wash dishes but since the wife
and kids never leave the house except to go to church
I have a difficult time finding ways the kids would
learn things such as the monetary system etc.> **
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/12/2002 10:24:20 PM Central Standard Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
Laura
Who has been lurking for a while. Hi all! What do I need to do as way of an
intro?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecsamhill@... writes:
> Well, if they play Monopoly they'll learn a bit about money, but theyWhy not, my kids think they grow on trees.
> might end up believing that five dollar bills are pink.
>
Laura
Who has been lurking for a while. Hi all! What do I need to do as way of an
intro?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Amy Thomlinson
True they do play with playing cards things like go
fish and stuff. Maybe they will be able to grow up to
be poker players :)
--- Betsy <ecsamhill@...> wrote:
If God meant for us to go around naked we would be born that way!
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
fish and stuff. Maybe they will be able to grow up to
be poker players :)
--- Betsy <ecsamhill@...> wrote:
> OH!!!!=====
>
> Well, if they play Monopoly they'll learn a bit
> about money, but they
> might end up believing that five dollar bills are
> pink.
>
> Betsy
>
> P.S. (I never imagined an illiterate parent trying
> to homeschool.)
>
> **I know because the mother cannot read or write and
> she
> never reads to the kids, never takes them to the
> library the family doesn't have a computer or
> television, they don't have field trips because the
> family has no car and in the homeschool lesson plans
> we have to fill out in Missouri her husband makes
> up
> stuff that the kids do all day. He says he doesn't
> believe in school because the government brainwashes
> children there. So there is probably learning about
> how to fold laundry and wash dishes but since the
> wife
> and kids never leave the house except to go to
> church
> I have a difficult time finding ways the kids would
> learn things such as the monetary system etc.> **
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
If God meant for us to go around naked we would be born that way!
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Sue
n AlwaysLearning@y..., Dana Matt <hoffmanwilson@y...> wrote:
Oh yeah, Dana.
I'd like to add home birth and allowing children to pick their own
clothes to
the list.
I had to laugh because I had just posted to a vaccination group the following message that rang true with this message
They could have been treated very nicely with homeopathy.
that coming from a strict Irish catholic family that me living
in "sin" then having two children out of wedlock was the last of the
shocks for them - now it is - what your still breastfeeding your two
children, what you never circumsised your son - your a fool, what
your homeschooling your children - your a bloody idiot, what your
not vaccinating your daugther - now she has really lost the plot -
and when are you going to get married <LOL>
Sue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> HAve to say, I loved your letter...:*D
>
> It's not just unschooling....it's breastfeeding,
> vegetarianism, non-vaccinating, and numerous other
> parenting decisions we make every day.
Oh yeah, Dana.
I'd like to add home birth and allowing children to pick their own
clothes to
the list.
I had to laugh because I had just posted to a vaccination group the following message that rang true with this message
They could have been treated very nicely with homeopathy.
> Scarlet fever is much rarer than it used to be.Yes I agree but I am the only insane one in the family. They thought
that coming from a strict Irish catholic family that me living
in "sin" then having two children out of wedlock was the last of the
shocks for them - now it is - what your still breastfeeding your two
children, what you never circumsised your son - your a fool, what
your homeschooling your children - your a bloody idiot, what your
not vaccinating your daugther - now she has really lost the plot -
and when are you going to get married <LOL>
Sue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sue
No joke--I'm having an unassisted birth any day now,
and you'd think I actually had plans to murder my
child...Needless to say, I don't listen to is any
more.
How exciting, all the best
Sue
breasts could ever equal "Gay", but WHATEVER, mom! ;P
Once
SIL's little boy (he was 3) and gave it to my daughter
(the same age), and said he wasn't "allowed" to play
with dolls. When I asked WTF?, he said "Oh, the
neighbors will make fun of him!" That gave me all the
insight into my PIL that I ever needed! It doesn't
matter what you want, it matters HOW IT LOOKS TO THE
NEIGHBORS! (And they live in the country and have NO
NEIGHBORS, but that's beside the point...) Yes, "to
never own your own life....how pathetic is that".
VERY TRUE!!!
Dana
Montana Mama
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and you'd think I actually had plans to murder my
child...Needless to say, I don't listen to is any
more.
How exciting, all the best
Sue
> Regarding nursing ... My mother actually suggestedI'm not sure how a male having an appreciation for
> that
> breastfeeding my
> son might "make him gay
breasts could ever equal "Gay", but WHATEVER, mom! ;P
Once
> you realize that'sA couple of years ago, my FIL took a doll away from my
> what
> makes them tick, it is easy to not be bothered.
>
> To never own your own life ... how pathetic is that.
>
SIL's little boy (he was 3) and gave it to my daughter
(the same age), and said he wasn't "allowed" to play
with dolls. When I asked WTF?, he said "Oh, the
neighbors will make fun of him!" That gave me all the
insight into my PIL that I ever needed! It doesn't
matter what you want, it matters HOW IT LOOKS TO THE
NEIGHBORS! (And they live in the country and have NO
NEIGHBORS, but that's beside the point...) Yes, "to
never own your own life....how pathetic is that".
VERY TRUE!!!
Dana
Montana Mama
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sue
In a message dated 6/12/02 1:30:42 PM Central Daylight Time,
melinda2u@... writes:
Sue
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
melinda2u@... writes:
> That they or any children are "better off" confinedWell said - I'm saving this one too
> to a single building 180 days a year, age-segregated,
> vulnerable to bullies and (often) apathetic teachers
> and administrators, who will daily assess their value
> with numbers and letters, monitor their every move, be
> inflexible to their changing interests, require them
> to ask to use the restroom, rush them through gobbling
> down their lunch, arbitrarily enforce their silence
> and attention, show them no individual respect and
> attempt to quash their very uniqueness and mold them
> into a "productive citizen" in accordance with
> whatever the prevailing methods and systems are
> currently eschewed by the head educrats ... is a
> belief that I will never be sold on.
Sue
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kate Green
> They could have been treated very nicely with homeopathy.As someone who had a bad case of scarlet fever 5 years ago I can say it's
> > Scarlet fever is much rarer than it used to be.
>
not that rare and I have never been so thankful for antibiotics as I was
then:)
Allopathic medicine can be wonderful when needed (as can homeopathy).
Kate
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/14/02 1:10:03 AM Central Daylight Time,
karegree@... writes:
last 10 years. The most recent was earlier this spring. Gads. I felt SO
BAD. The first time I caught it right away and got some good antibiotic
mojo. This last time I didn't realize what it was at first, and it
progressed to rheumatic fever. Now I've got a dodgy heart as a result.: (
Antibiotics are definitely my friends, in the right circumstance.
pax.
Athena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
karegree@... writes:
> As someone who had a bad case of scarlet fever 5 years ago I can say it'sI will second the above on all counts. I've had scarlet fever twice in the
> not that rare and I have never been so thankful for antibiotics as I was
> then:)
> Allopathic medicine can be wonderful when needed (as can homeopathy).
last 10 years. The most recent was earlier this spring. Gads. I felt SO
BAD. The first time I caught it right away and got some good antibiotic
mojo. This last time I didn't realize what it was at first, and it
progressed to rheumatic fever. Now I've got a dodgy heart as a result.: (
Antibiotics are definitely my friends, in the right circumstance.
pax.
Athena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
moonmeghan
<<<<My MIL
story I've ever heard. YUCK!
Meghan
> screamed at me when I refused to give my daughter herIt's official. You have the MIL from HELL! This is the worst MIL
> first set of shots...9 years or so ago, and told me
> she would be dead by the time she was two. She has
> told me that breastfeeding is only for people too
> stupid to sterilize bottles. She has told me that
> wearing a baby in a sling makes one look like an
> "African or a poor person". She insists on serving
> meat for every meal we share with them.
> Dana
> Montana Mama>>>>
story I've ever heard. YUCK!
Meghan
moonmeghan
<<<<--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., Melinda <melinda2u@y...>
wrote:
read in ages!
Meghan
wrote:
> Dear Ones,Bravo Melinda!! A truly inspiring post and one of the best I've
>
> I appreciate that there are various points of view
> here re. what may be the "reality" of the situation.
>
> I'd like to address some of the specifics of this post
> because they sum up some of the issues in the relating
> ones.
>
> Please don't take offense, Amy. Since we just met, ;
> *) I'd hate to offend you.
>
> I tend to be Direct. Having been a victim of family
> "concern" has lead me to be rather pro-active in
> addressing this issue.
>
> My comments follow ***
>
> Melinda>>>>
read in ages!
Meghan
Dana Matt
Thanks, Sue!
Dana
Montana Mama
--- Sue <werapfamily@...> wrote:
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Dana
Montana Mama
--- Sue <werapfamily@...> wrote:
>__________________________________________________
> No joke--I'm having an unassisted birth any day now,
> and you'd think I actually had plans to murder my
> child...Needless to say, I don't listen to is any
> more.
>
> How exciting, all the best
>
> Sue
>
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Dana Matt
I'm so glad that everyone can agree that she is from
hell!! It doesn't change it, but it makes me feel
like I'm not crazy! My husband won't admit any fault
from his "wonderful" mother...GAG! ;) Thanks, gals!
Dana
Montana Mama
--- moonmeghan <moonmeghan@...> wrote:
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
hell!! It doesn't change it, but it makes me feel
like I'm not crazy! My husband won't admit any fault
from his "wonderful" mother...GAG! ;) Thanks, gals!
Dana
Montana Mama
--- moonmeghan <moonmeghan@...> wrote:
> <<<<My MIL__________________________________________________
> > screamed at me when I refused to give my daughter
> her
> > first set of shots...9 years or so ago, and told
> me
> > she would be dead by the time she was two. She
> has
> > told me that breastfeeding is only for people too
> > stupid to sterilize bottles. She has told me that
> > wearing a baby in a sling makes one look like an
> > "African or a poor person". She insists on
> serving
> > meat for every meal we share with them.
>
> > Dana
> > Montana Mama>>>>
>
> It's official. You have the MIL from HELL! This is
> the worst MIL
> story I've ever heard. YUCK!
>
> Meghan
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>
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Nancy Wooton
on 6/17/02 6:35 PM, Dana Matt at hoffmanwilson@... wrote:
Nancy, who had the audacity to marry "Precious."
> I'm so glad that everyone can agree that she is fromYou do watch "Everybody Loves Raymond," don't you? I find it cathartic.
> hell!! It doesn't change it, but it makes me feel
> like I'm not crazy! My husband won't admit any fault
> from his "wonderful" mother...GAG! ;) Thanks, gals!
> Dana
> Montana Mama
Nancy, who had the audacity to marry "Precious."
Dana Matt
I'll obviously have to start! ;) Glad I'm not the only
one!
Dana
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one!
Dana
> You do watch "Everybody Loves Raymond," don't you?__________________________________________________
> I find it cathartic.
>
> Nancy, who had the audacity to marry "Precious."
>
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http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com