back again now with teens
flyingtwinsmom@...
It's been a long time since I first visited the group so before I get to my questions (or plea for help) I'll give a little background. I have twin girls that have always been at home. I first tried to homeschool them more traditionally until they were about 9. Then I realized that was destroying them and us. It was creating a bad relationship between them and myself especially because I was always the bad guy forcing work. I discovered unschooling and jumped more or less right in. We met some great unschool families, and I saw these wonderful kids of all ages that loved life, were involved in so many things, and whose families enjoyed each other. I dropped all types of traditional work and just lived.
Fast forward and here we are. They are now almost 15. I'm divorced with a husband who believes their education is neglected because they aren't "up to school standards." I am not nearly as comfortable with unschooling now that the big, scary future is right around the corner. They have picked up my fear and are upset that I neglected their education because they are "stupid." (Their words not mine.) One of my fears comes from the fact that they have never gotten interested in life as I thought they would. I think for unschooling to work they have to be curious about life and develop interests.
I know this sounds really harsh on my kids, but I'm not thinking that way. I am more harsh on myself because I think I must have done something wrong. On the right side, I have the open relationship that I have always hoped to have. They come to me and talk to me about so many things that most "normal" teens would hide from their parents.
Since my divorce turned ugly and their father has threatened to take me back to court to force them to go to highschool, I've become even more afraid. They aren't up to highschool standards, and I'm afraid of what putting them in school will do to them. So I've been trying to "catch them up" on some of their schooling. In many ways they've seemed to thrive more on this than they ever did unschooling. They like having a set amount of work to do each day. They like learning these things (although they take no interest in exploring these things unless I say they have to). They have also began thinking that they want to go to highschool because they can't see how they can get into college or make a living without highschool and college.
So I'm asking for ideas on so many things,
Is it possible that anyone has advice to calm my own fears? and theirs?
Do I have to give up on the idea of unschooling if I'm trying to meet their dad's requirement for more traditional work?
Is there any way to help them develop a curiosity for life and a desire to learn things on their own?
(I know they are learning things on their own so I'm speaking more out of my own fear here but, for instance, they will watch vines and tv all day.) How does that prepare them for the future?
Is there a way to meet other unschool teens so they can see what is possible?
Is there anything to read/watch that I can share with them about nontraditional kids? I don't want them to give up on it because they are being pounded by peer pressure.
I am fully looking for eye opening responses about my own thoughts as well.
Thanks
Fast forward and here we are. They are now almost 15. I'm divorced with a husband who believes their education is neglected because they aren't "up to school standards." I am not nearly as comfortable with unschooling now that the big, scary future is right around the corner. They have picked up my fear and are upset that I neglected their education because they are "stupid." (Their words not mine.) One of my fears comes from the fact that they have never gotten interested in life as I thought they would. I think for unschooling to work they have to be curious about life and develop interests.
I know this sounds really harsh on my kids, but I'm not thinking that way. I am more harsh on myself because I think I must have done something wrong. On the right side, I have the open relationship that I have always hoped to have. They come to me and talk to me about so many things that most "normal" teens would hide from their parents.
Since my divorce turned ugly and their father has threatened to take me back to court to force them to go to highschool, I've become even more afraid. They aren't up to highschool standards, and I'm afraid of what putting them in school will do to them. So I've been trying to "catch them up" on some of their schooling. In many ways they've seemed to thrive more on this than they ever did unschooling. They like having a set amount of work to do each day. They like learning these things (although they take no interest in exploring these things unless I say they have to). They have also began thinking that they want to go to highschool because they can't see how they can get into college or make a living without highschool and college.
So I'm asking for ideas on so many things,
Is it possible that anyone has advice to calm my own fears? and theirs?
Do I have to give up on the idea of unschooling if I'm trying to meet their dad's requirement for more traditional work?
Is there any way to help them develop a curiosity for life and a desire to learn things on their own?
(I know they are learning things on their own so I'm speaking more out of my own fear here but, for instance, they will watch vines and tv all day.) How does that prepare them for the future?
Is there a way to meet other unschool teens so they can see what is possible?
Is there anything to read/watch that I can share with them about nontraditional kids? I don't want them to give up on it because they are being pounded by peer pressure.
I am fully looking for eye opening responses about my own thoughts as well.
Thanks
Robyn Coburn
You say : Stupid "their words not mine." It may not be your word, but it's not theirs either, not really. Children don't decide that they are "stupid" without input from someone else, or feeling compared to someone else. Perhaps it is their dad, but it is coming from somewhere.
"Do I have to give up on the idea of unschooling if I'm trying to meet their Dad's requirement for more traditional work?"
"I'm trying to catch them up.."
It sounds like you have already given up on the practice of unschooling, if not the idea of it. Maybe in your heart it was always a temporary thing.
One clue that leads me to say that is "they have never gotten interested in life as I thought they would."
I have noticed over years on this list that when parents say things like this, it usually means that they, the parents, are not SEEING the learning and the interests for various reasons, or not valuing the learning or interests of their children and so dismissing them. That they, the parents, have not fully understood unschooling, and the amount of attention it requires from the parents.
You say "they will watch vines and tv all day". I can't tell definitively from your post whether you are happy with that, or negative about it, although I think the latter. (?) Plus you have not shared any of their other activities.
You came to this list for a bit when you first started unschooling and then left, and are now coming back? Is that right? If so, it's a shame not to have stayed around for the intervening time, not necessarily to post but just to read on a regular basis. You might have already had the answers to most of these questions, that honestly sound like someone new to unschooling, not someone with 6 years at it. It also sounds like you are not as confident in your unschooling that you can be a bulwark for your twins against the critique that they are getting from their Dad.
However you say have a nice relationship with them, which you may be jeopardizing with all this school pushing. It sounds like if they have to do school at home, they'd rather do it at school. I would advise then that you continue to make your relationship with them your priority.
"Is there any way to help them develop a curiosity for life and a desire to learn things on their own?"
On the other hand, I wonder if they are showing apparent interest in the school work you are having them do because what they really are interested in is more connection and time doing something WITH you.
The goal of unschooling is to partner with our children, NOT expect them to learn things on their own.
I would also be honest with them, that Dad has concerns. Ask for ideas from them about how they might meet those, and still have the time to enjoy their current activities, whatever those might be - including time to watch tv etc. My 15 year old loves You Tubers, especially Dan and Phil and some of the Beauty Vloggers - make up tutorials and stuff. I have made it a priority to subscribe to Dan and Phil's several channels and watch with her, so that when she wants to talk about them, I get what she is saying. Plus they are hilarious.
They might enjoy some of the online courses, such as things at Khan Academy (free!), which still puts the onus on themselves to work at their own pace, in whatever order they like, and anytime they like - instead of you taking on an authoritarian role.
But whether they like that idea or not, be ready to spend even more time with them, listening to their interests, being fascinated by their fascinations, and connecting, as their friend and partner.
As for meeting other teens, there are the annual Not Back to School Camps (http://nbtsc.org ), the camps in East Tennessee, ARGH, several unschooling conferences around the country (Life is Good, NE Unschooling Conference, Free to Be are three I have been to that have strong teen presence) and often local group camp outs, and groups that often have teen groups too. Other places to meet teens include clubs or events based on their interests. For example, my daughter is interested in Vidcon, a convention about You Tubers.
OH. It just occurred to me that sometimes immersive TV watching to the exclusion of other things can be a reaction to trauma - like a healing period. It might be that they are reacting to your divorce, which certainly must have been traumatic for them too, with what looks like "not interested in life". If your marriage relationship was troubled for a long time, that would effect unschooling also. Seen in that light, it is actually part of healing, part of making a safe cocoon of reliability and predictability, a safe escape. Please try to find out what they value in their shows and if you can immerse yourself in them too.
"I don't want them to give up on it.."
Unschooling is not there for its own sake, or for people to unschool at all costs, just so that they can wave a flag for "UNSCHOOLING!" If it is not leading you to a happier lifestyle, then it isn't. Better to be have happy relationships with your kids, with them in school, than to keep them out against their will and have friction just because Mom liked the idea of being an unschooler.
Robyn C
Sandra Dodd
-=-
Years back, my phone number was listed in a book (without my permission—a terrible thing someone did) and people would call me, in New Mexico, to ask about homeschooling. My first question would be whether they were divorced or had hostile in-laws. If they said yes, I would talk about finding a curriculum they would all agree to. If they said no, I would suggest they look into unschooling and not buy a curriculum.
Unschooling can't be done against the will of a biological parent (one who is local and involved, anyway). It can't be done with the presence of grandparents who think it's criminally neglectful.
So part of the process is doing just what a parent understands, gradually moving toward understanding it in such ways that it takes root and grows and develops in strong and solid ways that show.
If the parent doesn't REALLY see it happening, either she's looking for the wrong things, or it's not happening.
http://sandradodd.com/knowledge
That's not an easy answer, but there's not an easy answer. Sorry.
Sandra
> If it is not leading you to a happier lifestyle, then it isn't. Better to be have happy relationships with your kids, with them in school, than to keep them out against their will and have friction just because Mom liked the idea of being an unschooler.-=-So important, what Robyn wrote above.
Years back, my phone number was listed in a book (without my permission—a terrible thing someone did) and people would call me, in New Mexico, to ask about homeschooling. My first question would be whether they were divorced or had hostile in-laws. If they said yes, I would talk about finding a curriculum they would all agree to. If they said no, I would suggest they look into unschooling and not buy a curriculum.
Unschooling can't be done against the will of a biological parent (one who is local and involved, anyway). It can't be done with the presence of grandparents who think it's criminally neglectful.
So part of the process is doing just what a parent understands, gradually moving toward understanding it in such ways that it takes root and grows and develops in strong and solid ways that show.
If the parent doesn't REALLY see it happening, either she's looking for the wrong things, or it's not happening.
http://sandradodd.com/knowledge
That's not an easy answer, but there's not an easy answer. Sorry.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
This is written for the benefit of others here. The mom of the teens might be beyond recovery on this (or not, but that will be a separate post).
To anyone else reading, whose children are younger...
To anyone else reading who's new to unschooling:
-=- I discovered unschooling and jumped more or less right in. We met some great unschool families, and I saw these wonderful kids of all ages that loved life, were involved in so many things, and whose families enjoyed each other. I dropped all types of traditional work and just lived.
-=-Fast forward and here we are. They are now almost 15. I'm divorced with a husband who believes their education is neglected because they aren't "up to school standards." I am not nearly as comfortable with unschooling now that the big, scary future is right around the corner. They have picked up my fear and are upset that I neglected their education because they are "stupid." (Their words not mine.) One of my fears comes from the fact that they have never gotten interested in life as I thought they would. I think for unschooling to work they have to be curious about life and develop interests. -=-
Is unschooling "just living"?
-=- I dropped all types of traditional work and just lived. -=-
It needs to be extremely rich living, with constant interaction between children and parents. BOTH parents should be involved with the children.
-=- We met some great unschool families, and I saw these wonderful kids of all ages that loved life, were involved in so many things, and whose families enjoyed each other.-=-
It seems perhaps that the mom saw kids who loved life (but their lives were different), were involved in many things (but she didn't find those things for her own children) and whose families enjoyed each other. Her family, at that point, was not happy. [-=-I realized that was destroying them and us. It was creating a bad relationship between them and myself especially because I was always the bad guy forcing work.-=-]
It's not enough to stop forcing work. That needs to be replaced with joyful, busy, interesting OTHER kinds of activities and life and conversations.
-=-Fast forward and here we are. They are now almost 15.-=-
The problems occurred in the five or six years that were "fast forwarded" through. Something wasn't done. Lots of things weren't done.
For anyone whose children are young or who's new to unschooling, before getting too far from these thoughts, PLEASE consider this:
http://sandradodd.com/divorce (Divorce—Prevention of)
and
http://sandradodd.com/spouses
Take care of your children by taking care of your marriage. Divorce is nearly always the end of unschooling. Unschooling is sometimes the beginning of a gloriously improved and solidified marriage. What is done around the parental relationships is crucial. Yes there are step families unschooling, and yes there are (a few) divorced parents unschooling, but they don't have it smooth or easy.
When the biological parents are together and they both want to unschool and they do it well enough that the grandparents back down (or support them), THEN unschooling is optimal.
-=-One of my fears comes from the fact that they have never gotten interested in life as I thought they would. I think for unschooling to work they have to be curious about life and develop interests.-=-
For unschooling to work, the parents need to be curious about life, and joyful about life. They need to smile and be tour guides for the children. They need to present and introduce the world of ideas and places and people and things, history, music, movies, plants, animals, inventions.... because they know more about those things than their children do, at first, and because they can transport their children (physically, emotionally, somehow) to other places.
For unschooling to work, the parents need to develop interests. They should have hobbies or collections (of ideas, at least, or songs, or words or jokes).
-=-One of my fears comes from the fact that they have never gotten interested in life as I thought they would.-=-
The parents should be interested in life. In life outside themselves. In their own lives. In their family's life. In their children's lives.
-=-I dropped all types of traditional work and just lived. -=-
"Just" is not a good word. "Just" diminishes things, very often.
"They're just playing."
"I was just joking."
"I'm just sayin'..."
"Just living" is apparently not going to do it, then.
Sandra
To anyone else reading, whose children are younger...
To anyone else reading who's new to unschooling:
-=- I discovered unschooling and jumped more or less right in. We met some great unschool families, and I saw these wonderful kids of all ages that loved life, were involved in so many things, and whose families enjoyed each other. I dropped all types of traditional work and just lived.
-=-Fast forward and here we are. They are now almost 15. I'm divorced with a husband who believes their education is neglected because they aren't "up to school standards." I am not nearly as comfortable with unschooling now that the big, scary future is right around the corner. They have picked up my fear and are upset that I neglected their education because they are "stupid." (Their words not mine.) One of my fears comes from the fact that they have never gotten interested in life as I thought they would. I think for unschooling to work they have to be curious about life and develop interests. -=-
Is unschooling "just living"?
-=- I dropped all types of traditional work and just lived. -=-
It needs to be extremely rich living, with constant interaction between children and parents. BOTH parents should be involved with the children.
-=- We met some great unschool families, and I saw these wonderful kids of all ages that loved life, were involved in so many things, and whose families enjoyed each other.-=-
It seems perhaps that the mom saw kids who loved life (but their lives were different), were involved in many things (but she didn't find those things for her own children) and whose families enjoyed each other. Her family, at that point, was not happy. [-=-I realized that was destroying them and us. It was creating a bad relationship between them and myself especially because I was always the bad guy forcing work.-=-]
It's not enough to stop forcing work. That needs to be replaced with joyful, busy, interesting OTHER kinds of activities and life and conversations.
-=-Fast forward and here we are. They are now almost 15.-=-
The problems occurred in the five or six years that were "fast forwarded" through. Something wasn't done. Lots of things weren't done.
For anyone whose children are young or who's new to unschooling, before getting too far from these thoughts, PLEASE consider this:
http://sandradodd.com/divorce (Divorce—Prevention of)
and
http://sandradodd.com/spouses
Take care of your children by taking care of your marriage. Divorce is nearly always the end of unschooling. Unschooling is sometimes the beginning of a gloriously improved and solidified marriage. What is done around the parental relationships is crucial. Yes there are step families unschooling, and yes there are (a few) divorced parents unschooling, but they don't have it smooth or easy.
When the biological parents are together and they both want to unschool and they do it well enough that the grandparents back down (or support them), THEN unschooling is optimal.
-=-One of my fears comes from the fact that they have never gotten interested in life as I thought they would. I think for unschooling to work they have to be curious about life and develop interests.-=-
For unschooling to work, the parents need to be curious about life, and joyful about life. They need to smile and be tour guides for the children. They need to present and introduce the world of ideas and places and people and things, history, music, movies, plants, animals, inventions.... because they know more about those things than their children do, at first, and because they can transport their children (physically, emotionally, somehow) to other places.
For unschooling to work, the parents need to develop interests. They should have hobbies or collections (of ideas, at least, or songs, or words or jokes).
-=-One of my fears comes from the fact that they have never gotten interested in life as I thought they would.-=-
The parents should be interested in life. In life outside themselves. In their own lives. In their family's life. In their children's lives.
-=-I dropped all types of traditional work and just lived. -=-
"Just" is not a good word. "Just" diminishes things, very often.
"They're just playing."
"I was just joking."
"I'm just sayin'..."
"Just living" is apparently not going to do it, then.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-So I'm asking for ideas on so many things,
Is it possible that anyone has advice to calm my own fears? and theirs?
Do I have to give up on the idea of unschooling if I'm trying to meet their dad's requirement for more traditional work?
Is there any way to help them develop a curiosity for life and a desire to learn things on their own?
(I know they are learning things on their own so I'm speaking more out of my own fear here but, for instance, they will watch vines and tv all day.) How does that prepare them for the future?
Is there a way to meet other unschool teens so they can see what is possible?
Is there anything to read/watch that I can share with them about nontraditional kids? I don't want them to give up on it because they are being pounded by peer pressure. -=-
______________________
-=-Do I have to give up on the idea of unschooling if I'm trying to meet their dad's requirement for more traditional work?-=-
Yes.
Even if you were rich and hired a divorce lawyer who understood unschooling, if the dad's against it, and the kids think they're "stupid" the judge will not say "Sure, keep on unschooling; dad, let that happen."
And even IF my some crazy fluke a judge did say that, if the kids have visitation with the dad, he can undermine and prevent unschooling's success by drilling and shaming and quizzing.
And with divorce sometimes comes re-marriage, or at least dating or relationships. You might find another partner. He might find another partner. The likelihood of getting FOUR adults to understand unschooling when two who had children together couldn't get it is pretty well nil.
So rather than have your children's lives subsumed by discussions and arguments about unschooling, after which they will have no high school diploma and they will spend all their time with their dad feeling afraid and ashamed, it might be better to support their going to school. HELP them with homework. ENCOURAGE them to take elective classes they will enjoy.
Then there will be more peace overall, whether they're at your house or their dad's, and unschooling won't ruin their lives and yours.
That's what I think this morning.
Sandra
Is it possible that anyone has advice to calm my own fears? and theirs?
Do I have to give up on the idea of unschooling if I'm trying to meet their dad's requirement for more traditional work?
Is there any way to help them develop a curiosity for life and a desire to learn things on their own?
(I know they are learning things on their own so I'm speaking more out of my own fear here but, for instance, they will watch vines and tv all day.) How does that prepare them for the future?
Is there a way to meet other unschool teens so they can see what is possible?
Is there anything to read/watch that I can share with them about nontraditional kids? I don't want them to give up on it because they are being pounded by peer pressure. -=-
______________________
-=-Do I have to give up on the idea of unschooling if I'm trying to meet their dad's requirement for more traditional work?-=-
Yes.
Even if you were rich and hired a divorce lawyer who understood unschooling, if the dad's against it, and the kids think they're "stupid" the judge will not say "Sure, keep on unschooling; dad, let that happen."
And even IF my some crazy fluke a judge did say that, if the kids have visitation with the dad, he can undermine and prevent unschooling's success by drilling and shaming and quizzing.
And with divorce sometimes comes re-marriage, or at least dating or relationships. You might find another partner. He might find another partner. The likelihood of getting FOUR adults to understand unschooling when two who had children together couldn't get it is pretty well nil.
So rather than have your children's lives subsumed by discussions and arguments about unschooling, after which they will have no high school diploma and they will spend all their time with their dad feeling afraid and ashamed, it might be better to support their going to school. HELP them with homework. ENCOURAGE them to take elective classes they will enjoy.
Then there will be more peace overall, whether they're at your house or their dad's, and unschooling won't ruin their lives and yours.
That's what I think this morning.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-This is written for the benefit of others here. The mom of the teens might be beyond recovery on this (or not, but that will be a separate post).-=-
If the kids and the mom do persuade the dad to let unschooling proceed, there are ideas here.
I think the mom should Start OVER.
Start as though unschooling starts now. Because for some reason, the first time didn't really take.
http://sandradodd.com/later
There are lots of ideas there, and it might still be that it's not going to work for this family.
Sandra
If the kids and the mom do persuade the dad to let unschooling proceed, there are ideas here.
I think the mom should Start OVER.
Start as though unschooling starts now. Because for some reason, the first time didn't really take.
http://sandradodd.com/later
There are lots of ideas there, and it might still be that it's not going to work for this family.
Sandra
flyingtwinsmom@...
**Children don't decide that they are "stupid" without input from someone
else, or feeling compared to someone else. Perhaps it is their dad, but
it is coming from somewhere.**
Their dad may have told them outright, maybe not. I'm really not sure, but he gives that impression with every interaction. I'm afraid that my own reactions to things may lead to that feeling as well. I'm horribly guilty at looking for traditional measures of their growth. Or even comparing them to others. It's something that I'm working on. I have read all the responses I got so far but feel it's better to respond to one at a time. The focus on me and my attitude is very helpful because I know I'm they one that needs to change and be the pillar here.
**It sounds like you have already given up on the practice of unschooling, if not the idea of it.**
I've definitely hit the panic button after my last court hearing. Dad threatened to take me to court to have them put back in school if his guidelines weren't being met. Those guidelines were that they do school everyday and have something to show him. They must also pass any tests that he comes up with that he believes are grade appropriate in every subject. He wants them taught all the same subjects that they would be taught in school (chemisty, trig, algebra, history, social studies, English,etc). So I've set about meeting those guidelines. I enrolled them in Time 4 Learning, and I have been trying to do school type work to get them up to the grade dad believes they should test at. I feel I'd rather do this in order to keep them home and still give them free time to explore some of their own things than to have a court battle or have them just decide to give in and go to high school to avoid that.
**One clue that leads me to say that is "they have never gotten interested in life as I thought they would."
I have noticed over years on this list that when parents say things like this, it usually means that they, the parents, are not SEEING the learning and the interests for various reasons, or not valuing the learning or interests of their children and so dismissing them. That they, the parents, have not fully understood unschooling, and the amount of attention it requires from the parents.**
I struggle with this. Yes. I haven't fully deschooled myself. I try to not place that on my children though. As a practical point, the attention thing does make me feel guilty. Being a single mom, I don't have the time or energy that I would like to devote to their interests. I can't spend hours each day with both of them. I can't do it on their time table either. I work nights and sleep during the day. I feel guilty every time they say to me that I'm sleeping. It's like they want me to go without sleep in order to do things with them. Sometimes I do. But I'm not super mom, and I get really grouchy without sleep. I've talked to them about switching to a day shift, and they prefer me to stay on this one because then I do have some flexibility to be with them during the day and do things. For instance, they wanted to volunteer at an animal shelter about an hour and a half from home. I was able to drive them, meet the staff and tour the place, then I slept in the car while they worked. I also have my mom around who is a great support as far as getting them to things.
But on a more practical note, I hear over and over again how the parent must be actively involved and provide full attention. How? How does that look? Does the parent not have a life that they live too? Is it always being on call for the kids? I keep up with what they are watching by talking to them about it because I don't have the time to sit with them through everything. The same with their time at the barn, I talk about it. I drive when I can, but I can't spend the same amount of time there that they do. I can't be with them.
**You say "they will watch vines and tv all day". I can't tell definitively from your post whether you are happy with that, or negative about it, although I think the latter. (?) Plus you have not shared any of their other activities.**
I think it's a combination of both. I am still guilty of looking for something educational in what they do, now anyway, for years I didn't care but with the change in things here I am back at my old way of looking at things.
I find some of it very interesting and leading them into deeper things. Some of it I find just stupid. I don't threaten to take it away, but I'm sure they can tell that I'm less than happy with some of it. As for what else they do, they work at a barn (summer may make this more often. It's been slow during the winter.). They volunteer occasionally for an animal shelter. They would both like to find jobs, but because they aren't yet legal no one wants to hire them. They do a home school co-op once a week during the school year. They go to concerts that some of their friends have. They ride quads, and play outside during the warmer months. One took an interest in welding but quickly gave it up. They both have a small interest in crocheting which I'm trying to show them. (I'm still learning myself.)
**You came to this list for a bit when you first started unschooling and then left, and are now coming back? Is that right? If so, it's a shame not to have stayed around for the intervening time, not necessarily to post but just to read on a regular basis. You might have already had the answers to most of these questions, that honestly sound like someone new to unschooling, not someone with 6 years at it. It also sounds like you are not as confident in your unschooling that you can be a bulwark for your twins against the critique that they are getting from their Dad.**
I stayed around for about two years and read, but then life pulled me in other directions and I couldn't keep up with everything. I agree it's totally a shame that I didn't keep reading. I found I was spending more time reading about unschooling then doing things with my kids and I chose to get off the computer. I do consider myself new to unschooling. I feel like I'm starting all over again in my growth.
** It sounds like if they have to do school at home, they'd rather do it at school. I would advise then that you continue to make your relationship with them your priority. **
I have been talking over the options and letting them know that I will support them in whichever they chose. They feel school may be a good answer because it's more normal. And because then dad wouldn't be giving us such a hard time. I try to let them know that we are going through the motions for their dad, but what they have an interest in is what's important to me.
**On the other hand, I wonder if they are showing apparent interest in the school work you are having them do because what they really are interested in is more connection and time doing something WITH you. **
I don't do much of their work with them. I signed them up for Time 4 Learning, and they like being given a certain amount to get through every day, but I don't sit with them. They do it while I'm sleeping or after I've left for work. With things they don't understand, I take a few minutes to go over it (or they ask my mom), but we don't have "class time."
**The goal of unschooling is to partner with our children, NOT expect them to learn things on their own.**
This is a major failing point for me, and I know this. I've not filled their lives with enough. I think my lack as a good unschooling parent may be a good reason for them to consider doing school at home or going to public school. I don't have the time or energy or money any more to keep ahead and strew their paths with cool things. I'm just barely surviving myself. I don't have the resources to learn everything with them or be as engaging.
** My 15 year old loves You Tubers, especially Dan and Phil and some of the Beauty Vloggers - make up tutorials and stuff. I have made it a priority to subscribe to Dan and Phil's several channels and watch with her, so that when she wants to talk about them, I get what she is saying. Plus they are hilarious.**
My girls like them too. But I hadn't thought of subscribing to them myself. I occasionally watch with them, but that lack of time thing comes up again. BUT you gave me the idea of watching just a few minutes on my lunch/breaks at work. I can keep up with some of it that way. Thanks
**Unschooling is not there for its own sake, or for people to unschool at all costs, just so that they can wave a flag for "UNSCHOOLING!" If it is not leading you to a happier lifestyle, then it isn't. Better to be have happy relationships with your kids, with them in school, than to keep them out against their will and have friction just because Mom liked the idea of being an unschooler.**
That would be another reason that I stopped reading so much. I was becoming attached to the idea of the title rather than what was working best for us. I felt I had to do it a certain way to be doing it right, and I didn't like being tied to the label. I love the idea of letting them learn what they are interested in at their own pace. They aren't nearly as comfortable with that now. I think part of it is age, part of it is the family situation and part of it is societal pressure. Whichever way we go from here, it will be because we've talked about it and have decided for ourselves.
Thanks Robyn for such a lengthy thought provoking response.
Their dad may have told them outright, maybe not. I'm really not sure, but he gives that impression with every interaction. I'm afraid that my own reactions to things may lead to that feeling as well. I'm horribly guilty at looking for traditional measures of their growth. Or even comparing them to others. It's something that I'm working on. I have read all the responses I got so far but feel it's better to respond to one at a time. The focus on me and my attitude is very helpful because I know I'm they one that needs to change and be the pillar here.
**It sounds like you have already given up on the practice of unschooling, if not the idea of it.**
I've definitely hit the panic button after my last court hearing. Dad threatened to take me to court to have them put back in school if his guidelines weren't being met. Those guidelines were that they do school everyday and have something to show him. They must also pass any tests that he comes up with that he believes are grade appropriate in every subject. He wants them taught all the same subjects that they would be taught in school (chemisty, trig, algebra, history, social studies, English,etc). So I've set about meeting those guidelines. I enrolled them in Time 4 Learning, and I have been trying to do school type work to get them up to the grade dad believes they should test at. I feel I'd rather do this in order to keep them home and still give them free time to explore some of their own things than to have a court battle or have them just decide to give in and go to high school to avoid that.
**One clue that leads me to say that is "they have never gotten interested in life as I thought they would."
I have noticed over years on this list that when parents say things like this, it usually means that they, the parents, are not SEEING the learning and the interests for various reasons, or not valuing the learning or interests of their children and so dismissing them. That they, the parents, have not fully understood unschooling, and the amount of attention it requires from the parents.**
I struggle with this. Yes. I haven't fully deschooled myself. I try to not place that on my children though. As a practical point, the attention thing does make me feel guilty. Being a single mom, I don't have the time or energy that I would like to devote to their interests. I can't spend hours each day with both of them. I can't do it on their time table either. I work nights and sleep during the day. I feel guilty every time they say to me that I'm sleeping. It's like they want me to go without sleep in order to do things with them. Sometimes I do. But I'm not super mom, and I get really grouchy without sleep. I've talked to them about switching to a day shift, and they prefer me to stay on this one because then I do have some flexibility to be with them during the day and do things. For instance, they wanted to volunteer at an animal shelter about an hour and a half from home. I was able to drive them, meet the staff and tour the place, then I slept in the car while they worked. I also have my mom around who is a great support as far as getting them to things.
But on a more practical note, I hear over and over again how the parent must be actively involved and provide full attention. How? How does that look? Does the parent not have a life that they live too? Is it always being on call for the kids? I keep up with what they are watching by talking to them about it because I don't have the time to sit with them through everything. The same with their time at the barn, I talk about it. I drive when I can, but I can't spend the same amount of time there that they do. I can't be with them.
**You say "they will watch vines and tv all day". I can't tell definitively from your post whether you are happy with that, or negative about it, although I think the latter. (?) Plus you have not shared any of their other activities.**
I think it's a combination of both. I am still guilty of looking for something educational in what they do, now anyway, for years I didn't care but with the change in things here I am back at my old way of looking at things.
I find some of it very interesting and leading them into deeper things. Some of it I find just stupid. I don't threaten to take it away, but I'm sure they can tell that I'm less than happy with some of it. As for what else they do, they work at a barn (summer may make this more often. It's been slow during the winter.). They volunteer occasionally for an animal shelter. They would both like to find jobs, but because they aren't yet legal no one wants to hire them. They do a home school co-op once a week during the school year. They go to concerts that some of their friends have. They ride quads, and play outside during the warmer months. One took an interest in welding but quickly gave it up. They both have a small interest in crocheting which I'm trying to show them. (I'm still learning myself.)
**You came to this list for a bit when you first started unschooling and then left, and are now coming back? Is that right? If so, it's a shame not to have stayed around for the intervening time, not necessarily to post but just to read on a regular basis. You might have already had the answers to most of these questions, that honestly sound like someone new to unschooling, not someone with 6 years at it. It also sounds like you are not as confident in your unschooling that you can be a bulwark for your twins against the critique that they are getting from their Dad.**
I stayed around for about two years and read, but then life pulled me in other directions and I couldn't keep up with everything. I agree it's totally a shame that I didn't keep reading. I found I was spending more time reading about unschooling then doing things with my kids and I chose to get off the computer. I do consider myself new to unschooling. I feel like I'm starting all over again in my growth.
** It sounds like if they have to do school at home, they'd rather do it at school. I would advise then that you continue to make your relationship with them your priority. **
I have been talking over the options and letting them know that I will support them in whichever they chose. They feel school may be a good answer because it's more normal. And because then dad wouldn't be giving us such a hard time. I try to let them know that we are going through the motions for their dad, but what they have an interest in is what's important to me.
**On the other hand, I wonder if they are showing apparent interest in the school work you are having them do because what they really are interested in is more connection and time doing something WITH you. **
I don't do much of their work with them. I signed them up for Time 4 Learning, and they like being given a certain amount to get through every day, but I don't sit with them. They do it while I'm sleeping or after I've left for work. With things they don't understand, I take a few minutes to go over it (or they ask my mom), but we don't have "class time."
**The goal of unschooling is to partner with our children, NOT expect them to learn things on their own.**
This is a major failing point for me, and I know this. I've not filled their lives with enough. I think my lack as a good unschooling parent may be a good reason for them to consider doing school at home or going to public school. I don't have the time or energy or money any more to keep ahead and strew their paths with cool things. I'm just barely surviving myself. I don't have the resources to learn everything with them or be as engaging.
** My 15 year old loves You Tubers, especially Dan and Phil and some of the Beauty Vloggers - make up tutorials and stuff. I have made it a priority to subscribe to Dan and Phil's several channels and watch with her, so that when she wants to talk about them, I get what she is saying. Plus they are hilarious.**
My girls like them too. But I hadn't thought of subscribing to them myself. I occasionally watch with them, but that lack of time thing comes up again. BUT you gave me the idea of watching just a few minutes on my lunch/breaks at work. I can keep up with some of it that way. Thanks
**Unschooling is not there for its own sake, or for people to unschool at all costs, just so that they can wave a flag for "UNSCHOOLING!" If it is not leading you to a happier lifestyle, then it isn't. Better to be have happy relationships with your kids, with them in school, than to keep them out against their will and have friction just because Mom liked the idea of being an unschooler.**
That would be another reason that I stopped reading so much. I was becoming attached to the idea of the title rather than what was working best for us. I felt I had to do it a certain way to be doing it right, and I didn't like being tied to the label. I love the idea of letting them learn what they are interested in at their own pace. They aren't nearly as comfortable with that now. I think part of it is age, part of it is the family situation and part of it is societal pressure. Whichever way we go from here, it will be because we've talked about it and have decided for ourselves.
Thanks Robyn for such a lengthy thought provoking response.
flyingtwinsmom@...
**if the kids have visitation with the dad, he can undermine and prevent unschooling's success by drilling and shaming and quizzing. **
Already to that point. Dad led them into answering a question wrong and then used it in a court situation to say they aren't learning.
**So rather than have your children's lives subsumed by discussions and arguments about unschooling, after which they will have no high school diploma and they will spend all their time with their dad feeling afraid and ashamed, it might be better to support their going to school. HELP them with homework. ENCOURAGE them to take elective classes they will enjoy.**
I may be talking more to myself here, but if those same kids don't really want to go to school, how does that help anything? They like being home, having time for the bard and animal shelter.
You are completely accurate in divorce hurting everyone and everything. For those reading that may be struggling in your marriage, I encourage you to read all the resources Sandra posted. I can't change the past, and really now that my kids are laughing and smiling again, I don't want to go back, but it was a rough thing to get through, and I don't think my girls will ever get over the scars that it has and still is forming on them, both physically and psychologically.
flyingtwinsmom@...
**There are lots of ideas there, and it might still be that it's not going to work for this family.**
I should have added this to the bottom of the divorce post. But Sandra is totally right. Unschooling isn't going to work for us. I'll never have dad on board. But I still want to spread that joy and live a more unschooling life with my girls. I know I'll always have to meet dad's stipulations for seeing their learning in a more traditional way. That means either that they will decide to go to high school, or we will have to adopt some curriculum and make the best of it. But I want to still provide them the love and support that unschooling families live and that is what first drew me to unschooling. Making lives rich. I will not be able to do that unschooling them, but that doesn't mean I still can't do it.
I should have added this to the bottom of the divorce post. But Sandra is totally right. Unschooling isn't going to work for us. I'll never have dad on board. But I still want to spread that joy and live a more unschooling life with my girls. I know I'll always have to meet dad's stipulations for seeing their learning in a more traditional way. That means either that they will decide to go to high school, or we will have to adopt some curriculum and make the best of it. But I want to still provide them the love and support that unschooling families live and that is what first drew me to unschooling. Making lives rich. I will not be able to do that unschooling them, but that doesn't mean I still can't do it.
CASS KOTRBA
-=- I feel I'd rather do this in order to keep them home and still give them free time to explore some of their own things than to have a court battle or have them just decide to give in and go to high school to avoid that. -=-
I agree it would be much better to keep the court out of your life as much as possible and that this is clearly not good:
-=- They must also pass any tests that he comes up with that he believes are grade appropriate in every subject. -=-
But this is not good either:
-=- I try to let them know that we are going through the motions for their dad, but what they have an interest in is what's important to me. -=-
That sounds like you and the kids against Dad and that is not healthy or helpful for anyone.
Throughout your emails you've basically said that you don't fully understand unschooling, have never fully implemented it and don't feel that you have done it successfully. Intermingled with that is frustration and antagonism toward Dad for saying that what is currently going on is not enough. It sounds like you are angry at him but actually are in agreement that it hasn't been enough. Have you taken an honest look at things through his eyes and tried to understand his perspective? It sounds to me that he is afraid for his girls and is trying to help them in the only way that he knows how. I would work at moving toward a place of calm, mutual respect and understanding. Move away from defending your position and make it your goal to really understand everyone's perspective and how you can help calm the muddy waters.
-=-I have been talking over the options and letting them know that I will support them in whichever they chose.-=-
Do they have enough information to really choose? It sounds like you have passed on a lot of negative opinions about school.
-=-I don't do much of their work with them. I signed them up for Time 4 Learning, and they like being given a certain amount to get through every day, but I don't sit with them. They do it while I'm sleeping or after I've left for work. With things they don't understand, I take a few minutes to go over it (or they ask my mom)-=-
-=-This is a major failing point for me, and I know this. I've not filled their lives with enough. I think my lack as a good unschooling parent may be a good reason for them to consider doing school at home or going to public school. I don't have the time or energy or money any more to keep ahead and strew their paths with cool things. I'm just barely surviving myself. I don't have the resources to learn everything with them or be as engaging. -=-
It doesn't sound like you have the time or energy for homeschooling or unschooling, at the present moment. You all have been and still are going through a lot. I would look for ways to release fear, anger and antagonism and increase calm and stability. School may be a good pathway for that, for the time being. Don't make school out - to them or in your own mind - as the losing answer or a bad thing.
-=- or have them just decide to give in and go to high school... -=-
My daughter just spent 7 months in 6th grade, by choice, and she enjoyed it. (She had been in school previously, then unschooled for a little over 2 years.) I did have some concerns that she would be embarrassed or struggle with a lack of knowledge in some areas but she did great. She definitely discovered that she has strengths and weaknesses in their system but she was able to figure her way through it. She was quite resourceful! It was like a game to her. She decided she was ready to come back home a few weeks ago but she gained so much from this experience. It's been fun and rewarding to watch her processing some of her experiences since she's been back home.
One thing that she learned about herself is that she was able to understand the classes and get good grades. She felt proud and reassured that she could go back to school and be what she views as successful. She also realized how much more she learns at home and appreciates how much more meaningful and effortless that learning feels.
Maybe you & your girls could embrace the idea of going to school as a grand game and adventure! Make it seem fun and exciting!
-=-But I still want to spread that joy and live a more unschooling life with my girls... I want to still provide them the love and support that unschooling families live and that is what first drew me to unschooling. Making lives rich.-=-
Absolutely!! When my daughter went back to school I went through the process of discovering what it looks like to maintain an unschooling attitude with a child who is in school. It was a very rewarding learning process. Help your girls have a successful experience - whether that be at school or wherever life takes them.
Another thing to consider is for them to go to school part time. My daughter is considering doing this next year and the principal said that it would be fine. Maybe they'd like to pick some classes in a time block that works for you guys and still have some flexibility in their schedules. If their Dad sees that they are able to fit into his idea of normal he may start to relax a bit. And getting a sense that you are really trying to understand and respect his wishes and concerns as their father may help him relax, too. Help everyone involved find ways to feel safe and accepted (including yourself). Breathe deeply.
Whatever direction, whatever attitude and perspective you decide to go in next - you will all be learning a lot. Your girls are almost grown. When they reflect back on this part of their lives, what will the take away message be? Wouldn't it be great to turn things around so that they can remember how their mom lovingly & gently supported them through this turbulent time and helped them find solid ground again?
Cass
When you have a relationship that is deeply damaged & inflamed it isn't going to heal over night. Be clear in your mind about what your goals are (ie a peaceful, happy life for you & your children). Envision what you want things to be like & really feel inside of yourself how that would be.
When you feel yourself moving toward anger & frustration - stop yourself for half a second. I used to sometimes yell "stop" in my mind. Take a breath & remember your vision. Let the next breath & thought be something that brings you closer to that vision, not farther away. Make better choices, one by one. Think about them and why you are making that choice. Question what it is within your thinking that is keeping you away from your goals. Try to think creatively & outside the box about the choices you have.
The "choices" link on Sandra's site would be good to read.
When you feel yourself moving toward anger & frustration - stop yourself for half a second. I used to sometimes yell "stop" in my mind. Take a breath & remember your vision. Let the next breath & thought be something that brings you closer to that vision, not farther away. Make better choices, one by one. Think about them and why you are making that choice. Question what it is within your thinking that is keeping you away from your goals. Try to think creatively & outside the box about the choices you have.
The "choices" link on Sandra's site would be good to read.