Vaccinations and older children
treesock@...
Hi, folks.
This topic is so hot and crazy in the media right now, mainstream media and social media. So please know I'm not coming here to troll or stir the pot. I'd like to ask about vaccinating from an unschooling perspective as it pertains to older children.
My 9 year old is not fully vaccinated, and he's really resistant to the idea of getting shots. I'm struggling with this because I myself have mixed feelings about it. I find myself at a loss as to how to reconciling the consensus of epidemiologists with the reality of rare but serious vaccine injuries, as well as the need to make choices for the benefit of the whole of society with the right of people to make individual choices for their own health and well being. Again, from an unschooling perspective, I want to be his ally and advocate, and a good mom and good citizen, too.
How do you all handle this?
Thanks for thoughts,
Teresa
This topic is so hot and crazy in the media right now, mainstream media and social media. So please know I'm not coming here to troll or stir the pot. I'd like to ask about vaccinating from an unschooling perspective as it pertains to older children.
My 9 year old is not fully vaccinated, and he's really resistant to the idea of getting shots. I'm struggling with this because I myself have mixed feelings about it. I find myself at a loss as to how to reconciling the consensus of epidemiologists with the reality of rare but serious vaccine injuries, as well as the need to make choices for the benefit of the whole of society with the right of people to make individual choices for their own health and well being. Again, from an unschooling perspective, I want to be his ally and advocate, and a good mom and good citizen, too.
How do you all handle this?
Thanks for thoughts,
Teresa
Joyce Fetteroll
> On Feb 12, 2015, at 10:23 PM, treesock@... wrote:Setting aside the controversial issues about vaccines, some of these diseases can affect adults more seriously than when caught as a child.
>
> I want to be his ally and advocate, and a good mom and good citizen, too.
But, in the meantime, what are the chances your son will get one of these disease before he's an adult? Virtually nil.
So since most people are vaccinated, you do have the luxury of letting him decide to get vaccinated or not. If he doesn't vaccinate before he's an adult, make information available for him so he can make an informed decision then. He'll need to know what vaccinations he's had and that immunity can fade. And about the diseases he could also be vaccinated for and what the effects might be if the diseases are caught as an adult.
Joyce
Janice Ancheta
Disclosure: I am a physician, but as a radiologist I do not give vaccines or prescribe medications, and I am not connected to any pharmaceutical companies. I approach this topic as a concerned mother and unschooler who happens to have a scientific background.
Here is my take on medicine from an unschooling perspective: I would not want to force a medication or procedure on a child (or adult, really) unless there is danger to himself or others AND the child is unable to comprehend the situation AND creative thinking leaves no other alternatives. I cannot say here what the right answer is in this or any other individual situation.
As Joyce said, you can make information available to your son. Most people will agree that it is important to be informed. But when it comes to vaccines, if you look for information by doing a google search, there is a good chance you and your son will be misinformed. The internet and even some books are filled with folklore, half-truths, and flat out lies about vaccines. There are even whole websites and organizations designed to look official and scientific, but are actually all smoke and mirrors. But it’s hard to tell unless you have a solid understanding of epidemiology and immunology, and you click on all the links and references on these sites.
In the United States, go straight to the CDC website http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/parents-guide/parents-guide-part4.html. No organization (including the CDC) is perfect, but it’s the best source of actual data here. Discuss anything you don’t understand or any frightening rumors you hear with a trusted physician or other expert in the field.
I am not saying this to you specifically, but to everyone as a source for discussion. I think you move away from unschooling when you hold onto beliefs that are not supported by evidence, then impose these beliefs on your children as truths. Don’t believe whatever you read on the internet without checking sources. Don't believe that you are “educated” on a topic by reading a blog post while ignoring a large body of evidence. Experts can be wrong, but if you are going to say so, please be able to give real evidence as to why you think they are wrong.
I think if anyone really wants to learn about vaccines, study immunology, virology, epidemiology, anatomy and physiology, public health, etc. If not, see the CDC website and talk to people who are experts in these subjects. Don’t rely on internet lore.
Janice
On Feb 13, 2015, at 5:28 AM, Joyce Fetteroll jfetteroll@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 12, 2015, at 10:23 PM, treesock@... wrote:
>
> I want to be his ally and advocate, and a good mom and good citizen, too.
Setting aside the controversial issues about vaccines, some of these diseases can affect adults more seriously than when caught as a child.
But, in the meantime, what are the chances your son will get one of these disease before he's an adult? Virtually nil.
So since most people are vaccinated, you do have the luxury of letting him decide to get vaccinated or not. If he doesn't vaccinate before he's an adult, make information available for him so he can make an informed decision then. He'll need to know what vaccinations he's had and that immunity can fade. And about the diseases he could also be vaccinated for and what the effects might be if the diseases are caught as an adult.
Joyce
heatherpie@...
=My 9 year old is not fully vaccinated, and he's really resistant to the idea of getting shots. =
When Austin was 12 he was scared to get the shot, but interested in getting the vaccines recommended by our doctor. We went from there and found a way to make the shot less scary. Numbing the area with ice worked for him. I made him an ice pack wrapped in a towel and he held it on his arm on the way to the appointment and while we waited. He held my hand, looked away when it was time and was surprised when it was over that he hadn't felt pain.
On a side note: Austin needs to get his blood drawn often and I am surprised when I see little kids waiting to get their blood drawn with no numbing of the area done. Ice is great for shots because it can numb down into the muscle where vaccines usually go. Lidocaine cream is great for blood draws as it completely numbs the area. It doesn't go far enough down to numb for a subcutaneous shot, but for blood draws it works wonderfully.
Heather
When Austin was 12 he was scared to get the shot, but interested in getting the vaccines recommended by our doctor. We went from there and found a way to make the shot less scary. Numbing the area with ice worked for him. I made him an ice pack wrapped in a towel and he held it on his arm on the way to the appointment and while we waited. He held my hand, looked away when it was time and was surprised when it was over that he hadn't felt pain.
On a side note: Austin needs to get his blood drawn often and I am surprised when I see little kids waiting to get their blood drawn with no numbing of the area done. Ice is great for shots because it can numb down into the muscle where vaccines usually go. Lidocaine cream is great for blood draws as it completely numbs the area. It doesn't go far enough down to numb for a subcutaneous shot, but for blood draws it works wonderfully.
Heather
Joyce Fetteroll
> On Feb 13, 2015, at 12:44 PM, Janice Ancheta janice_casamina@... wrote:Just to be clear, I was picturing a young adult ready to go off into the world needing information. By that time the fact that he isn't fully vaccinated is likely to be buried somewhere in the back of his mind. (And some kids will be so out of the loop it won't occur to them to wonder.) If a mother chooses not to vaccinate, it would be a kindness to give the kid a heads up so they can make that decision for themselves.
>
> As Joyce said, you can make information available to your son.
For younger kids, a load of information that they can't weigh themselves is likely to have the effect of propaganda. It makes no difference whether the information is pro or con. If adults can get their opinion swayed by expert-seeming people, it isn't fair to assume a child can make an informed decision that way.
I think the most honest thing an unschooling anti-vaxxer can say is that there is controversy and that they lean towards the anti-vaccination side and then be sensitive about answering questions.
Unlike the child of an "all natural diet" parent who might like to try Oscar Meyer wieners and Twinkies, a child isn't likely to say, "I'd really like to try a vaccine." ;-)
Joyce
Janice Ancheta
Thanks Joyce. My email was also directed at adults, not kids.
I think the most honest thing an unschooling anti-vaxxer can say is that there is controversy and that they lean towards the anti-vaccination side and then be sensitive about answering questions.
It would also be honest to say to kids that vaccines are good for keeping kids healthy (according to most scientists and doctors) and that most people do vaccinate. If the parent has mixed feelings or is anti-vax, it might be okay to acknowledge your own anxieties and fears surrounding vaccination, but be careful not to impose those on your children. If your children have questions and your knowledge is based on internet lore (on either side), it might be better to discuss with an expert you can trust.
Unlike the child of an "all natural diet" parent who might like to try Oscar Meyer wieners and Twinkies, a child isn't likely to say, "I'd really like to try a vaccine." ;-)
So true.
From an unschooling perspective, I think that the most harmful part about vaccination is the violent way they’re often administered. People in the medical field have mainstream views of children, so vaccinations are often given without any sensitivity towards the children. Parents are often instructed to hold their children down despite screams. Some parents trick and lie to their children about what will happen in the doctor’s office. Some parents have no empathy for their kids who have just experienced pain. No wonder some parents notice a change in their kids’ behavior after the vaccine, then they blame it on vaccine ingredients instead of looking at how they just treated their child. Thankfully, as unschoolers, we have the compassion and tools to help our children so that it does not have to be a traumatic experience for them. I’d love for the research dollars to go into how to make the whole experience less traumatic for families.
Janice
On Feb 16, 2015, at 7:16 AM, Joyce Fetteroll jfetteroll@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 13, 2015, at 12:44 PM, Janice Ancheta janice_casamina@... wrote:
>
> As Joyce said, you can make information available to your son.
Just to be clear, I was picturing a young adult ready to go off into the world needing information. By that time the fact that he isn't fully vaccinated is likely to be buried somewhere in the back of his mind. (And some kids will be so out of the loop it won't occur to them to wonder.) If a mother chooses not to vaccinate, it would be a kindness to give the kid a heads up so they can make that decision for themselves.
For younger kids, a load of information that they can't weigh themselves is likely to have the effect of propaganda. It makes no difference whether the information is pro or con. If adults can get their opinion swayed by expert-seeming people, it isn't fair to assume a child can make an informed decision that way.
I think the most honest thing an unschooling anti-vaxxer can say is that there is controversy and that they lean towards the anti-vaccination side and then be sensitive about answering questions.
Unlike the child of an "all natural diet" parent who might like to try Oscar Meyer wieners and Twinkies, a child isn't likely to say, "I'd really like to try a vaccine." ;-)
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
-=-It would also be honest to say to kids that vaccines are good for keeping kids healthy (according to most scientists and doctors) and that most people do vaccinate.-=-
It would be more honest to say that many scientists and doctors believe that vaccines are good for the population at large. And those differences are difficult enough for adults to understand, without an adult who has no way to be more clear about it to explain it to a child.
Much of what doctors believe comes from pharmaceutical reps or reports from pharmaceutical research. Corporations have laws requiring that the interests of stockholders in the company are protected, above all else. It's a problem that affects the integrity of research, reports and advertising.
If a parent has serious reservations about a medical procedure, I think it's better for the parent to wait. There are MANY things that the medical profession has gotten wrong over the years. Caution is warranted.
But that wasn't the question. Knowing, as we all do, that some things are unknowable, and that some currently accepted truths will be shown later to have been fallacy (in various ways, on various "sides") let's not discuss things that are not unschooling-related.
The suggestion that "it would be honest to say..." should only be followed by something that is absolutely honest fact. I don't see that in the example above, but the argument would be subtle and this is not the place for it.
Sandra
(for the benefit of people new to this discussion,
I want to point out that I am the owner of Always Learning)
It would be more honest to say that many scientists and doctors believe that vaccines are good for the population at large. And those differences are difficult enough for adults to understand, without an adult who has no way to be more clear about it to explain it to a child.
Much of what doctors believe comes from pharmaceutical reps or reports from pharmaceutical research. Corporations have laws requiring that the interests of stockholders in the company are protected, above all else. It's a problem that affects the integrity of research, reports and advertising.
If a parent has serious reservations about a medical procedure, I think it's better for the parent to wait. There are MANY things that the medical profession has gotten wrong over the years. Caution is warranted.
But that wasn't the question. Knowing, as we all do, that some things are unknowable, and that some currently accepted truths will be shown later to have been fallacy (in various ways, on various "sides") let's not discuss things that are not unschooling-related.
The suggestion that "it would be honest to say..." should only be followed by something that is absolutely honest fact. I don't see that in the example above, but the argument would be subtle and this is not the place for it.
Sandra
(for the benefit of people new to this discussion,
I want to point out that I am the owner of Always Learning)
Janice Ancheta
> It would be more honest to say that many scientists and doctors believe that vaccines are good for the population at large.True. Thank you.
> Much of what doctors believe comes from pharmaceutical reps or reports from pharmaceutical research.Sort of. The internet lore states that doctors believe what pharmaceutical companies and research say. I can’t speak for all doctors, but my classmates and I were trained NOT to believe anything in any one research paper. We are trained to critically examine any paper that comes our way. We know to look at who funded the research. We examine papers for bias and errors. I habitually tear apart research articles. That’s part of how I found unschooling - by tearing apart all of those research articles that try to show the harms of television. Most of us don’t trust pharmaceutical companies any more than we trust the business people and politicians who run our health care system (at least where I live in the U.S.). I am personally very skeptical of those pharmaceutical representatives and any research only performed by people who stand to make money from that research.
> Knowing, as we all do, that some things are unknowableI agree. Nothing in life is 100%, (except dying and taxes, as the saying goes). There are people who believe that the Earth does not revolve around the Sun. All of that footage of us going to the moon could have been fabricated. There are people who believe that Ebola was invented by Westerners to bring suffering to Africa. There are people who believe that AIDS is caused by the antiretroviral drugs used to treat HIV. Can any of us say with 100% certainty whether any of these things are true? Should we believe these statements because we can’t prove the opposite?
I agree this not the place to discuss a super hot topic like vaccines in detail. I respect you, Sandra, for keeping this list on point.
Would it be more helpful to discuss how unschooling parents can model sifting through the large amounts of information and misinformation out there? How can we tell if the “research” supporting such-and-such new diet or miracle pill is actually research or just advertising? Many decisions in life require a risk/benefit analysis. How can we parents model this? Should we avoid walking down the street or traveling by car because of the possibility of getting hurt? Most of us don’t think twice about walking or driving. But some of us avoid things because of possibilities that are much tinier than the possibility of getting hurt by walking or driving. When our children ask us questions, how do we know if we’re answering with heavy personal bias, and how can we become more objective? Do we want to be more objective?
Janice
On Feb 16, 2015, at 9:18 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
> -=-It would also be honest to say to kids that vaccines are good for keeping kids healthy (according to most scientists and doctors) and that most people do vaccinate.-=-
>
> It would be more honest to say that many scientists and doctors believe that vaccines are good for the population at large. And those differences are difficult enough for adults to understand, without an adult who has no way to be more clear about it to explain it to a child.
> Much of what doctors believe comes from pharmaceutical reps or reports from pharmaceutical research. Corporations have laws requiring that the interests of stockholders in the company are protected, above all else. It's a problem that affects the integrity of research, reports and advertising.
>
> If a parent has serious reservations about a medical procedure, I think it's better for the parent to wait. There are MANY things that the medical profession has gotten wrong over the years. Caution is warranted.
>
> But that wasn't the question. Knowing, as we all do, that some things are unknowable, and that some currently accepted truths will be shown later to have been fallacy (in various ways, on various "sides") let's not discuss things that are not unschooling-related.
>
> The suggestion that "it would be honest to say..." should only be followed by something that is absolutely honest fact. I don't see that in the example above, but the argument would be subtle and this is not the place for it.
>
> Sandra
> (for the benefit of people new to this discussion,
> I want to point out that I am the owner of Always Learning)
>
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> Yahoo Groups Links
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Sandra Dodd
-=-
You're implying that I based my statement on "internet lore."
I have known pharmaceutical reps, researchers and doctors, for a long time. I was the president of a corporation (non-profit, but still, came to read literature and lawsuits that involved the laws that require board members to look to finances and the maintenance of the company above all, or be guilty of a crime).
What medical students are told to do, and the papers they read as students, can go by the wayside once they're fully licensed. They're not required to study, in all cases, or to learn more. They can slide in various ways.
Doctors aren't known to be the most objective people. They have a lot of time and money invested, and there is pressure from associations of various kinds.
Doctors are also taught to disregard patients' reports (or at least assume that they could be lying) and so most accounts of problems after vaccinations are dismissed one way or another, directly or indirectly, and NOT collected and taken seriously.
-=-Would it be more helpful to discuss how unschooling parents can model sifting through the large amounts of information and misinformation out there? How can we tell if the “research” supporting such-and-such new diet or miracle pill is actually research or just advertising? -=-
When a parent learns, I hope she's not learning in order to "model" learning, but is actually learning, directly.
-=-Many decisions in life require a risk/benefit analysis. How can we parents model this? Should we avoid walking down the street or traveling by car because of the possibility of getting hurt? Most of us don’t think twice about walking or driving. -=-
If the government mandated either, there would be objections.
If the government injected something that prevented that person from being more careful at crosswalks, or driving alertly and defensively, we might be getting closer to an analogy.
-=-But some of us avoid things because of possibilities that are much tinier than the possibility of getting hurt by walking or driving.-=-
Choice is central to the kind of thinking that helps unschooling thrive.
If people choose to sky-dive or snowboard or go to Colorado and smoke pot stronger than they expected, I hope they'll have good friends at hand to spot them and advise, and call 911 if necessary.
-=-When our children ask us questions, how do we know if we’re answering with heavy personal bias, and how can we become more objective? Do we want to be more objective?
-=-
Asking a "we" question feels antagonistic here.
Some people are good at critical thought, and others not so much. That has always and will always be true.
Some feel they are objective because they have fancy college degrees and have written analyses of other people's research, or done their own research and had it analyzed. And that can help—experience with glitchy science, and finding errors.
-=-Do we want to be more objective?-=-
Yeah, that's antagonistic. Either "yes" or "no" answers could open up to a tirade. And there is no "we." There are a thousand individuals, reading from their own perspective, dealing with their own situations.
Please write things that will help other people move nearer to a useful understanding of unschooling.
Thanks.
> Much of what doctors believe comes from pharmaceutical reps or reports from pharmaceutical research. -=-Sort of. The internet lore states that doctors believe what pharmaceutical companies and research say. I can’t speak for all doctors, but my classmates and I were trained NOT to believe anything in any one research paper. We are trained to critically examine any paper that comes our way.-=-
You're implying that I based my statement on "internet lore."
I have known pharmaceutical reps, researchers and doctors, for a long time. I was the president of a corporation (non-profit, but still, came to read literature and lawsuits that involved the laws that require board members to look to finances and the maintenance of the company above all, or be guilty of a crime).
What medical students are told to do, and the papers they read as students, can go by the wayside once they're fully licensed. They're not required to study, in all cases, or to learn more. They can slide in various ways.
Doctors aren't known to be the most objective people. They have a lot of time and money invested, and there is pressure from associations of various kinds.
Doctors are also taught to disregard patients' reports (or at least assume that they could be lying) and so most accounts of problems after vaccinations are dismissed one way or another, directly or indirectly, and NOT collected and taken seriously.
-=-Would it be more helpful to discuss how unschooling parents can model sifting through the large amounts of information and misinformation out there? How can we tell if the “research” supporting such-and-such new diet or miracle pill is actually research or just advertising? -=-
When a parent learns, I hope she's not learning in order to "model" learning, but is actually learning, directly.
-=-Many decisions in life require a risk/benefit analysis. How can we parents model this? Should we avoid walking down the street or traveling by car because of the possibility of getting hurt? Most of us don’t think twice about walking or driving. -=-
If the government mandated either, there would be objections.
If the government injected something that prevented that person from being more careful at crosswalks, or driving alertly and defensively, we might be getting closer to an analogy.
-=-But some of us avoid things because of possibilities that are much tinier than the possibility of getting hurt by walking or driving.-=-
Choice is central to the kind of thinking that helps unschooling thrive.
If people choose to sky-dive or snowboard or go to Colorado and smoke pot stronger than they expected, I hope they'll have good friends at hand to spot them and advise, and call 911 if necessary.
-=-When our children ask us questions, how do we know if we’re answering with heavy personal bias, and how can we become more objective? Do we want to be more objective?
-=-
Asking a "we" question feels antagonistic here.
Some people are good at critical thought, and others not so much. That has always and will always be true.
Some feel they are objective because they have fancy college degrees and have written analyses of other people's research, or done their own research and had it analyzed. And that can help—experience with glitchy science, and finding errors.
-=-Do we want to be more objective?-=-
Yeah, that's antagonistic. Either "yes" or "no" answers could open up to a tirade. And there is no "we." There are a thousand individuals, reading from their own perspective, dealing with their own situations.
Please write things that will help other people move nearer to a useful understanding of unschooling.
Thanks.
Janice Ancheta
> You're implying that I based my statement on "internet lore.”Sorry, I shouldn’t have assumed that you (and others) base statements like these on internet lore. I understand there are many ways people can come up with the impression that doctors’ beliefs come from pharmaceutical companies. But no one can really say this is true without being in the doctor’s head. Maybe I have issue with the phrase “comes from.” I would agree if the phrase were replaced with “can be influenced by.”
I often hear big generalizations about doctors that don’t jive with my experience in training and in practice. People in other fields probably experience this also. It’s kind of like how some unschoolers might feel when outsiders say that unschoolers are permissive and un-parenting because of the examples they’ve seen. Or when people make comments about Sandra and unschoolers in general after reading snippets of what she said. Seeing how outside generalizations can be so inaccurate, I am now going to be careful about making sweeping generalized statements about another group of people, when I am not part of that group of people.
> If the government mandated either, there would be objections. If the government injected something that prevented that person from being more careful at crosswalks, or driving alertly and defensively, we might be getting closer to an analogy.I was trying to steer away from the vaccine issue, speaking in more general terms. I was actually thinking of other issues that are more related to unschooling - diets, not letting kids play in the front yard or climb trees, stuff like that, where parents tell children to avoid things because of high perceived risk. I think I am bringing in too many different ideas here at once, which is causing confusion. As I got to thinking about the original poster’s questions, I thought of so many other questions and could have been more precise.
> -=-Do we want to be more objective?-=-I apologize. I don’t mean to be antagonistic. I just realize that there are different ways of thinking, and I wanted to hear other people’s perspectives. I will try to remember to not use the word “we” like this in the future. I have made the assumption in the past that striving for objectivity would help with unschooling. When I wrote this, I was thinking that maybe I’ve been hammered with the importance of objectivity so much that I am unable to see other points of view. This list is great at pointing out when there is another point of view to be seen.
>
> Yeah, that's antagonistic.
Thank you,
Janice
On Feb 16, 2015, at 3:10 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
> -=-
>> Much of what doctors believe comes from pharmaceutical reps or reports from pharmaceutical research. -=-
>
>
> Sort of. The internet lore states that doctors believe what pharmaceutical companies and research say. I can’t speak for all doctors, but my classmates and I were trained NOT to believe anything in any one research paper. We are trained to critically examine any paper that comes our way.-=-
>
> You're implying that I based my statement on "internet lore."
>
> I have known pharmaceutical reps, researchers and doctors, for a long time. I was the president of a corporation (non-profit, but still, came to read literature and lawsuits that involved the laws that require board members to look to finances and the maintenance of the company above all, or be guilty of a crime).
>
> What medical students are told to do, and the papers they read as students, can go by the wayside once they're fully licensed. They're not required to study, in all cases, or to learn more. They can slide in various ways.
>
> Doctors aren't known to be the most objective people. They have a lot of time and money invested, and there is pressure from associations of various kinds.
>
> Doctors are also taught to disregard patients' reports (or at least assume that they could be lying) and so most accounts of problems after vaccinations are dismissed one way or another, directly or indirectly, and NOT collected and taken seriously.
>
> -=-Would it be more helpful to discuss how unschooling parents can model sifting through the large amounts of information and misinformation out there? How can we tell if the “research” supporting such-and-such new diet or miracle pill is actually research or just advertising? -=-
>
> When a parent learns, I hope she's not learning in order to "model" learning, but is actually learning, directly.
>
> -=-Many decisions in life require a risk/benefit analysis. How can we parents model this? Should we avoid walking down the street or traveling by car because of the possibility of getting hurt? Most of us don’t think twice about walking or driving. -=-
>
> If the government mandated either, there would be objections.
> If the government injected something that prevented that person from being more careful at crosswalks, or driving alertly and defensively, we might be getting closer to an analogy.
>
> -=-But some of us avoid things because of possibilities that are much tinier than the possibility of getting hurt by walking or driving.-=-
>
> Choice is central to the kind of thinking that helps unschooling thrive.
> If people choose to sky-dive or snowboard or go to Colorado and smoke pot stronger than they expected, I hope they'll have good friends at hand to spot them and advise, and call 911 if necessary.
>
> -=-When our children ask us questions, how do we know if we’re answering with heavy personal bias, and how can we become more objective? Do we want to be more objective?
> -=-
>
> Asking a "we" question feels antagonistic here.
>
> Some people are good at critical thought, and others not so much. That has always and will always be true.
> Some feel they are objective because they have fancy college degrees and have written analyses of other people's research, or done their own research and had it analyzed. And that can help—experience with glitchy science, and finding errors.
>
> -=-Do we want to be more objective?-=-
>
> Yeah, that's antagonistic. Either "yes" or "no" answers could open up to a tirade. And there is no "we." There are a thousand individuals, reading from their own perspective, dealing with their own situations.
>
> Please write things that will help other people move nearer to a useful understanding of unschooling.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I have made the assumption in the past that striving for objectivity would help with unschooling. When I wrote this, I was thinking that maybe I’ve been hammered with the importance of objectivity so much that I am unable to see other points of view. -=-
Same level of insult.
You're claiming to be more objective than others. Please stop. You don't know it to be true.
Sandra
________
Review:
Same level of insult.
You're claiming to be more objective than others. Please stop. You don't know it to be true.
Sandra
________
Review:
> -=-Do we want to be more objective?-=-I apologize. I don’t mean to be antagonistic..... (and then went on to what's above)
>
> Yeah, that's antagonistic.
michelle_m29@...
>Unlike the child of an "all natural diet" parent who might like to try Oscar Meyer wieners and Twinkies, a >child isn't likely to say, "I'd really like to try a vaccine." ;-)
I'm halfway expecting that conversation with my youngest, who is nine. He's been watching a lot of animal shows (Dr. Pol, Yukon Vet, etc.) and asking about the vaccinations that they give the animals. I'm waiting for him to ask why it's good for the sheep and cows but not for people. Not sure how I'll answer when/if it comes up, but I'm thinking about it. Maybe he isn't really aware of which shots he has/hasn't had. There was a tetanus shot after some accident or other....I can't remember what he cut himself on.
What about a kid who decides that he/she wants to get vaccinated because an aunt or uncle is saying that people who don't vaccinate should be thrown in jail? I don't think name calling is the best basis for making medical (or other) decisions.
If my older kids read the facts and make a different decision than I did, I'm fine with that. I do want them to know that there are lies out there, on both sides of the debate -- like the nurse who told me after the birth of our 3rd child that I wouldn't be allowed to leave the hospital until I had the Rubella vaccine.
Michelle
Sandra Dodd
-=-
Name him names of people who aren't in jail, smile, put on happy music, don't crawl down into an uncle-damning hole and wallow.
> What about a kid who decides that he/she wants to get vaccinated because an aunt or uncle is saying that people who don't vaccinate should be thrown in jail? I don't think name calling is the best basis for making medical (or other) decisions. -=-"Should" is an opinion.
Name him names of people who aren't in jail, smile, put on happy music, don't crawl down into an uncle-damning hole and wallow.
Janice Ancheta
You're claiming to be more objective than others.
On the contrary. I was thinking that I may LACK objectivity after hearing the same messages over and over. I apologize for not being clearer about that.
What about a kid who decides that he/she wants to get vaccinated because an aunt or uncle is saying that people who don't vaccinate should be thrown in jail?
Michelle, are there people in your life who are sending your kids messages like this? I have good friends and family members who are very vocal against vaccination (and some who are very vocal for vaccination). We (adults) are able to have respectful discussions that lead to mutual understanding even when we disagree. Our kids play together, and vaccines have not come up yet for them. Is it possible to have a gentle discussion with your family member who has mistakenly made a flippant comment in front of your child?
On the other hand, I have seen (mostly online) that vaccine discussions can take a downward spiral into nonsensical or mean accusations quickly. Vaccinating parents are called “sheeple.” Non-vaccinating parents are called “stupid” or “selfish.” Doctors and scientists are called “greedy” or “pawns of Big Pharma.” These types of statements are unhelpful. If people become hostile and unyielding, I am learning that it’s better to just not engage. Just walk away. Enjoy time with my kids instead. Don’t let that negativity into my home. You might choose to do the same if this is the case with your relatives.
Respectfully,
Janice
On Feb 16, 2015, at 7:47 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
-=-I have made the assumption in the past that striving for objectivity would help with unschooling. When I wrote this, I was thinking that maybe I’ve been hammered with the importance of objectivity so much that I am unable to see other points of view. -=-
Same level of insult.
You're claiming to be more objective than others. Please stop. You don't know it to be true.
Sandra
________
Review:-=-Do we want to be more objective?-=-
Yeah, that's antagonistic.
I apologize. I don’t mean to be antagonistic..... (and then went on to what's above)
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Sarah Thompson
*What about a kid who decides that he/she wants to get vaccinated because an aunt or uncle is saying that people who don't vaccinate should be thrown in jail?*
I can imagine a child being moved by that argument, but I have trouble picturing a child hearing that, "deciding," and getting on a bike to hit the Walgreens. What I picture in that scenario is a child approaching the parent, wanting to know if it's true, feeling afraid or self-righteous, and I would use that as an opportunity to discuss the issues involved in that idea. Why would someone say that? What are the concerns underneath that?
This is an area where are kids are likely to start out biased towards our view as the parent. Whenever my nine yo asserts something that is the product of *my* reasoning, rather than his, I try to offer some of the other perspectives.
Sarah