lisajceledon@...

My five year old, Josh, has been cursing a lot.  I need help being more sensical about how to respond to it.  Lately I have been able to partner with him better to help ease some of his frustrations, which are often about being powerless in a situation, or not having control over what people do or how they react.       

For a time, my husband and I both were being really hard on him about it, correcting him every time he said a curse word, regardless of the context, or where we were.  Josh's cursing has been really irritating to my husband, and I felt anxious to curb it.  I also feel like if he's cursing at home, it will be harder for him to remember not to curse in places where it is really inappropriate, like at the playground.  I let him know when and where it is inappropriate, give him alternatives that are not so rude or shocking or disrespectful, and we have fun with it too, making up funny alternatives.  At home I am trying to feel out when it makes sense to curb the cursing, and when to get off his back about it.  I have found the more on it I am, the more often he curses- like a feedback loop.  I feel like I am not sure yet-or having a blind spot- about when I am trying to control him and when I am being his partner.

I have found that there is a lot I can do, through kindness and attention and generosity to lighten the general mood of our home and that stuff eases up too, but the last 6 months I was pretty depressed, and the home got pretty tense.  I know it was really hard on my husband, and my kids, though things have been improving over the last month, especially in the last couple weeks. 

I have given him a few places and situations where it is okay to curse, and am working on reducing the sources of frustration and powerlessness that really get him going. 
Some of his stress and frustration is with transitions and leaving the house- I have found some great suggestions on the physicality page for things we can do in our apartment. Sometimes he really needs to be louder and stronger and bigger than can be accommodated here, and some of those times he really doesnt want to leave the house.  I am often able to draw him out, but there are times when he is really frustrated with not being able to stay home and do what he wants. And then, even if he wanted to go out, has trouble remembering not to curse--or gets frustrated or angry about something and intentionally curses-- and then I feel guilty having him out at a playground, or kids' museum or any of the other places with people and kids around that are exciting enough to entice him out of the house.  He is very social and extroverted and wants to be around people.  I don't think it is okay for him to curse around people though, and feel stuck about how to partner better with him on this.

He seems to be going through a developmental shift right now too, and I know that might be part of it.

A big source of frustration is his little brother, Kaiden.  I know he felt and still feels displaced by him.  I baby Josh as much as I can, whenever I can, when that is what he wants (and he does want that a fair amount of the time), and now that his brother is 3, I'm a lot more able to do that than I was in the past.  Josh likes me to carry him cradled like a baby to and from the car and to different rooms in the house, and to play baby and mommy with him.  I make the most of that and snuggle him and rock him and gush about my sweet, adorable little baby, feed him bottles or a sippy cup and let him wear a diaper and he loves me to swaddle him up in a big blanket and that really helps.  I can do that as often as Josh asks for it, now that his brother doesn't want to be held and carried all the time, and often wants to walk to or from the car on his own, etc.

  But, Kaiden is also getting increasingly social in his play, and instead of sitting beside us and doing something else while Josh and I play, he wants to play along with us too. Josh adamantly does not want him to play (though a few months ago he often wanted Kai to play along when he couldn't, or when Kai did want to, Josh would enjoy it and welcome and encourage it) and is often mean and hurtful in expressing it, yelling at Kaiden, or pushing him away, or crying and saying things like, "I hate him, he's such a f*cker!"  Josh also has been getting really irritated lately that Kaiden (who is learning how to talk) is starting to imitate us more, and yells at him or starts crying when Kai does it.  He says things like, "he's so stupid. Why does he do that?"  Or, "He's talking too loud/too much!" when he is chattering quietly to himself in the car, or trying to talk with me (Most of his speech is incomprehensible, but has accurate intonational patterns, so it sounds like conversation and asking/responding to questions).  I feel like Josh is frustrated by not being able to understand what his brother is saying, and that it is overwhelming for him to try to figure out how to include him.  And then, he also doesn't want to include him,
Lately too, Josh will yell and run away and say things like "get the hell away from me!" when his brother moves vaguely in his direction, as if he is going to be attacked, even though Kaiden isn't even paying any attention to him, or moving toward him at all. 
Kai does occasionally grab him or hit him-- usually he grabs him and tries to head butt him, often because Josh has taken something from him, or yelled at him.  Josh has also hit his brother, and has teased him and pushed him.  I am now often there before either of them can hurt the other, but not always, and am working on being more present and engaged before the fact, or keeping them separated when I have to do something like cook or go to the bathroom. 

 I don't want him to treat his brother this way, I don't think it's okay, I am firm about it not being okay but other than saying, No, Stop that, it isn't okay, I don't know what else to do. In not so great moments I have told him to go to another room, or said I don't want to play with him anymore or removed Kaiden to another room, and that makes it worse.  I feel inside me how it makes it worse, and Josh also gets louder and more angry and frustrated.  I have seen, in some ways, Josh reacts to Kaiden in similar ways that I have reacted to him. 
In better moments I am playful and find ways to play with them both--but Josh is usually still distracted or upset that Kaiden is there with us, and isnt often soothed by it.  I also feel like, I've been feeling overwhelmed by this, and haven't been looking as closely at what works well, and remembering it. 

I have a mother's helper who comes once a week to play with Kaiden so that I can play with Josh, and also when my husband is home, one of us is able to give Josh the one on one attention he needs while the other plays with Kaiden.  I have also been working on finding an additional mother's helper with more availability, to come more often.

I have also noticed that Josh is struggling with his friends as well, being frustrated when they won't do what he wants-- sometimes he is more flexible and able to negotiate, or go with what other people are doing, other times he cries and yells and/or tackles his friends when they won't do what he wants. 
I have been able to help sometimes, by doing the thing Josh wanted to do, or helping them come up with a mutually agreeable alternative.  Sometimes none of that helps at all.

One of his friends who warmed up to him really quickly, and adored him, and came over a lot and played with him a lot, totally dropped him a few months ago when one of her other friends started coming back to our playgroup.  That was really hard on Josh, and I was able to invite her over often for awhile and they got along well away from the other friend, but then she started being distant with Josh even at our house and preferring to play with Kaiden instead.  That was REALLY hard on Josh, so we didn't have her over for awhile.  Lately we've had her back a few times, and I've been able to balance pretty well between getting Josh engaged in things with me when she plays with Kaiden, and then helping her and Josh find things to do together more too. 

I am having a hard time thinking of other ways he might make some friends, besides the local homeschooling playgroups where the kids he wants to play with are older than him, but not old enough to really have the skills or even the desire to include a younger kid. He often seems really dissatisfied with the playgroups and seems to have more fun with random kids at the park after school-- but also really wants friends that he sees more than once.  I have reached out to our local homeschooling group too for kids with similar interests, with not much luck, and am not sure how to reach beyond just the homeschoolers.  He isn't much into skype yet, either.

As I finish this up, I am thinking about the reality that I have been very controlling in the past, and am still flushing out areas where I have continued to be controlling or manipulative, and working on understanding how to make choices based on principles, instead of trying to control Josh's behavior out of fear.  So, that has likely made it harder for him too.  I have also been withdrawn at times, and emotionally unavailable, which has caused Josh (and everyone - Josh reacts the most loudly and openly) a lot of stress.  I feel like I have not often enough been a trustworthy partner, and I have a lot of ground to make up, and that will take time, and patience, and practice on my part.
 
In the meantime, I would really appreciate some suggestions for what I can say and do to respond to him in those moments where he is angry and cursing or being verbally hurtful of his brother, or excluding him-- I don't mean that as a short cut or way around continuing to improve his situation, but rather in addition to any other insights and suggestions anyone has that will help me do that.

Thank You, I appreciate this group so much more than I know how to say.

Lisa C

Ali Zeljo

Hi Lisa, I think at this point he understands you and his father don't want him to swear. So telling him probably isn't going to make a difference. Does his dad work away from home? Maybe you can become ok with the swearing at home for a while. It's a powerful way to express himself. It sounds like you are hearing his message beyond the swearing. You sense he is frustrated a lot. That can be a developmental blip. My boys have each gone through phases of change that are accompanied by a very small threshold for frustrations.

My boys also swear a lot. If my little ones swear on the playground at another little child or out in public inappropriately, we leave. I have had success pulling them aside ahead of entering a playground with other children and saying, no swear words here. These parents don't allow it and will be very upset if you say it. But my kids know that the swear words don't bother me and that when I ask them not to swear, I mean it for a good reason. And if they do swear, we will have to go where there are no other people. My older children have no trouble, but my 3, now 4 year old did once call a tiny sweet child a bitch. The child (around 3) had no understanding but the mom was horrified. I swept in and took my sons far away. We all talked about how that was so offensive and shocking for those families. My son was SO young, but I think he learned from that experience. Certainly his older brothers learned.

It's been a challenge in our house too. My husband gets really frustrated hearing swearing out of little children's mouths. He blames the older boys for swearing in front of them. But they learn these words from gaming videos and reading chats in game also. For a while I approached it like a bad habit needing effort to break. I explained the swear words were really getting Dad down and let me help them break the habit of using them all the time. I just remind them when they swear, they make the effort to rephrase, use a substitute word, and it takes about 3 weeks to form the new habit of using Fudge or some other word instead. It really does help for a while. The group effort is effective. My husband appreciates it.

At this point for you, your son may feel like it's him v. parents. No one is hearing what he's saying- just the swearing! Or maybe it's more like- when I swear, they listen! Then they know I mean it! It may help to just say nothing about the swearing for a while, then if it continues at a high rate, you could approach it like you are his assistant. Not reactive to the words, but just helping him switch F-words to something he chooses?

Hope this helps!
Ali

semajrak@...

<<My five year old, Josh, has been cursing a lot.  I need help being more sensical about how to respond to it.>>

Knowing what the words meant seemed to help Ethan decide if he really wanted to use them, where and with whom.  He rarely chooses to curse.  When he does it seems to be effective and purposeful to him, or in good fun with people he knows are okay with cursing.  I've told him to mind his audience.  Not everyone is okay with certain language, including blasphemy.  I do my best to be mindful of my own words too.  He and I like to read "Text From Dog" aloud, with him reading the human text and me reading the dog text, or visa versa.  There's some colourful language in that. We have fun with it.  I follow his lead.  Most of the time he says "frig" instead of the alternative, so I do too.

Neither Doug nor I curse at each other.  Ethan has never cursed at either one of us.  I would let him know that wasn't okay with me, if he did.  Doug will curse more often than me—sometimes when he's playing a video game that's getting very intense...like a Starcraft 2 match.  I curse on occasion for effect, but not a lot.  Rarely when I'm angry, but I have, though not often around Ethan.  Ethan actually doesn't like to hear either of us curse.  He has said he doesn't mind it in Youtube videos and movies (though he likes it less in movies for some reason), but doesn't like to hear either of us curse. It bothers him.  I haven't asked why.  Consequently, both Doug and I do try to be more mindful of our language around him.  I think our consideration of Ethan's feelings about this sets a good example.

When he began repeating some of the things he heard in Youtube videos, I didn't make a big deal of it.  I just said something like "Shit is another word for poop."  Or "Fuck has to do with sex."  (I didn't elaborate on what it was, although I'm pretty sure he knows now.)  He seemed to appreciate that information, and sometimes it led to some interesting conversation.  Over the years Ethan began to notice that many curse words have to do with bodily functions, certain body parts or sex.  We looked up curse words in other languages.  It's interesting to see and talk about patterns and customs.  

So, staying calm when I addressed certain words helped, I think.  Not cursing much myself might have had some influence too.  I've explained that some words are offensive, and told him a bit of their history and meaning.  I do not tolerate hateful language directed at another and do voice my opinion on that when I see it or hear it.  I have pointed out offensive words and told him the meaning of them and why they are offensive and hurtful.  Although I've never asked Ethan not to engage in hateful exchanges, he will leave a game server or turn off the chat (if he can) if the language is offensive toward another person. Similarly with Youtube videos.  He has seen his dad do the same in his online gameplay.  But all of that has taken time and patience and understanding from both Doug and I over many years and much interaction.

Karen James   


Tara & Sky

Sky (6 1/2) and I went through this recently, and one thing that helped me was to stay focused on learning. I looked at it less as an issue of power, and more as a new skill he needed my help exploring. Not that it *wasn't* an issue of power - of course it was. But it was happening in *real* situations where his power had been abruptly snatched away from him by some factor outside his or my control. I couldn't fix the situations (when I was newer to unschooling, I could, because I was often the cause!), but I could help him learn more about the particular tool he was showing interest in.  

I would remind myself that the words weren't (usually) offensive to me personally. Because I wasn't offended, I could be a safe space for him to try those things out - including providing definitions if he clearly didn't understand a word (for instance, when he used the word "d*ck" to refer to a person casually, I asked him if he knew he was calling that person a penis). 

So, I didn't react *to the words* when he used them at home. I did react to the frustration, by acknowledging that I noticed it, and by helping support him through it in lots of different ways. Mostly, I ignored the cursing at home - but when it fit easily into conversation, we talked about it. How certain words can be offensive to some people while not to others, and therefore are ok to use at some times and not at other times; which words are more offensive and which are less; the difference between things like "idiot" and "stupid" vs actual curse words. 

Outside our home, I reminded him when he said something inappropriate (ie, could hurt or offend others within earshot) for the setting. I helped him notice cues if someone (especially friends/family) seemed offended, or not. I reserved sternness for situations with friends/family that were likely to take offense, public spaces, and strangers. I made it clear that I was willing to leave, if his cursing offended others. I didn't tie our leaving to a rule: "if you curse, then we leave" - it was more a principle: "we respect others". So, if he cursed but I was the only one to catch it, I'd give a reminder. Typically, those reminders jolted him out of his frustration. Because he knew I was calling attention to his choice of tool, and because he knew he was free to curse in more appropriate circumstances, and because he wanted to stay wherever we were without offending others, he was mostly able to pull out of it when his temper flared. Once or twice, we did leave and did so without shame or punishment, just as a fact related to the principle. 

I didn't talk about this a lot with Sky's dad; he just followed my lead for the most part. But I think that even if we had disagreed, I could have used most of the same tactics, and just noticed-out-loud that Dad seems offended by cursing. There have been a few times where Sky said something that did offend me, and I told him so and he apologized or we talked about why I found it offensive. Mostly, it has come and gone, as have many other frenzies of learning. There has been more than one occasion where I smiled to myself, noticing that he used a word correctly in context that before he hadn't. And if I ever find myself feeling uncomfortable letting my 6 year old curse freely at home, I remember my own experience with this milestone. I started a new, Catholic school at age 10 where cursing was a fun activity among my new friends, one into which I jumped with gusto - and promptly kept that fact from my parents for well over a decade. I'd rather have a 6 year old who curses well, than an 18 year old ashamed to curse in front of me. For me, the gift of truth has been unschooling's most powerful and beautiful gift. 

~Tara 

On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 2:39 AM, lisajceledon@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

My five year old, Josh, has been cursing a lot.  I need help being more sensical about how to respond to it.  Lately I have been able to partner with him better to help ease some of his frustrations, which are often about being powerless in a situation, or not having control over what people do or how they react.       

For a time, my husband and I both were being really hard on him about it, correcting him every time he said a curse word, regardless of the context, or where we were.  Josh's cursing has been really irritating to my husband, and I felt anxious to curb it.  I also feel like if he's cursing at home, it will be harder for him to remember not to curse in places where it is really inappropriate, like at the playground.  I let him know when and where it is inappropriate, give him alternatives that are not so rude or shocking or disrespectful, and we have fun with it too, making up funny alternatives.  At home I am trying to feel out when it makes sense to curb the cursing, and when to get off his back about it.  I have found the more on it I am, the more often he curses- like a feedback loop.  I feel like I am not sure yet-or having a blind spot- about when I am trying to control him and when I am being his partner.

I have found that there is a lot I can do, through kindness and attention and generosity to lighten the general mood of our home and that stuff eases up too, but the last 6 months I was pretty depressed, and the home got pretty tense.  I know it was really hard on my husband, and my kids, though things have been improving over the last month, especially in the last couple weeks. 

I have given him a few places and situations where it is okay to curse, and am working on reducing the sources of frustration and powerlessness that really get him going. 
Some of his stress and frustration is with transitions and leaving the house- I have found some great suggestions on the physicality page for things we can do in our apartment. Sometimes he really needs to be louder and stronger and bigger than can be accommodated here, and some of those times he really doesnt want to leave the house.  I am often able to draw him out, but there are times when he is really frustrated with not being able to stay home and do what he wants. And then, even if he wanted to go out, has trouble remembering not to curse--or gets frustrated or angry about something and intentionally curses-- and then I feel guilty having him out at a playground, or kids' museum or any of the other places with people and kids around that are exciting enough to entice him out of the house.  He is very social and extroverted and wants to be around people.  I don't think it is okay for him to curse around people though, and feel stuck about how to partner better with him on this.

He seems to be going through a developmental shift right now too, and I know that might be part of it.

A big source of frustration is his little brother, Kaiden.  I know he felt and still feels displaced by him.  I baby Josh as much as I can, whenever I can, when that is what he wants (and he does want that a fair amount of the time), and now that his brother is 3, I'm a lot more able to do that than I was in the past.  Josh likes me to carry him cradled like a baby to and from the car and to different rooms in the house, and to play baby and mommy with him.  I make the most of that and snuggle him and rock him and gush about my sweet, adorable little baby, feed him bottles or a sippy cup and let him wear a diaper and he loves me to swaddle him up in a big blanket and that really helps.  I can do that as often as Josh asks for it, now that his brother doesn't want to be held and carried all the time, and often wants to walk to or from the car on his own, etc.

  But, Kaiden is also getting increasingly social in his play, and instead of sitting beside us and doing something else while Josh and I play, he wants to play along with us too. Josh adamantly does not want him to play (though a few months ago he often wanted Kai to play along when he couldn't, or when Kai did want to, Josh would enjoy it and welcome and encourage it) and is often mean and hurtful in expressing it, yelling at Kaiden, or pushing him away, or crying and saying things like, "I hate him, he's such a f*cker!"  Josh also has been getting really irritated lately that Kaiden (who is learning how to talk) is starting to imitate us more, and yells at him or starts crying when Kai does it.  He says things like, "he's so stupid. Why does he do that?"  Or, "He's talking too loud/too much!" when he is chattering quietly to himself in the car, or trying to talk with me (Most of his speech is incomprehensible, but has accurate intonational patterns, so it sounds like conversation and asking/responding to questions).  I feel like Josh is frustrated by not being able to understand what his brother is saying, and that it is overwhelming for him to try to figure out how to include him.  And then, he also doesn't want to include him,
Lately too, Josh will yell and run away and say things like "get the hell away from me!" when his brother moves vaguely in his direction, as if he is going to be attacked, even though Kaiden isn't even paying any attention to him, or moving toward him at all. 
Kai does occasionally grab him or hit him-- usually he grabs him and tries to head butt him, often because Josh has taken something from him, or yelled at him.  Josh has also hit his brother, and has teased him and pushed him.  I am now often there before either of them can hurt the other, but not always, and am working on being more present and engaged before the fact, or keeping them separated when I have to do something like cook or go to the bathroom. 

 I don't want him to treat his brother this way, I don't think it's okay, I am firm about it not being okay but other than saying, No, Stop that, it isn't okay, I don't know what else to do. In not so great moments I have told him to go to another room, or said I don't want to play with him anymore or removed Kaiden to another room, and that makes it worse.  I feel inside me how it makes it worse, and Josh also gets louder and more angry and frustrated.  I have seen, in some ways, Josh reacts to Kaiden in similar ways that I have reacted to him. 
In better moments I am playful and find ways to play with them both--but Josh is usually still distracted or upset that Kaiden is there with us, and isnt often soothed by it.  I also feel like, I've been feeling overwhelmed by this, and haven't been looking as closely at what works well, and remembering it. 

I have a mother's helper who comes once a week to play with Kaiden so that I can play with Josh, and also when my husband is home, one of us is able to give Josh the one on one attention he needs while the other plays with Kaiden.  I have also been working on finding an additional mother's helper with more availability, to come more often.

I have also noticed that Josh is struggling with his friends as well, being frustrated when they won't do what he wants-- sometimes he is more flexible and able to negotiate, or go with what other people are doing, other times he cries and yells and/or tackles his friends when they won't do what he wants. 
I have been able to help sometimes, by doing the thing Josh wanted to do, or helping them come up with a mutually agreeable alternative.  Sometimes none of that helps at all.

One of his friends who warmed up to him really quickly, and adored him, and came over a lot and played with him a lot, totally dropped him a few months ago when one of her other friends started coming back to our playgroup.  That was really hard on Josh, and I was able to invite her over often for awhile and they got along well away from the other friend, but then she started being distant with Josh even at our house and preferring to play with Kaiden instead.  That was REALLY hard on Josh, so we didn't have her over for awhile.  Lately we've had her back a few times, and I've been able to balance pretty well between getting Josh engaged in things with me when she plays with Kaiden, and then helping her and Josh find things to do together more too. 

I am having a hard time thinking of other ways he might make some friends, besides the local homeschooling playgroups where the kids he wants to play with are older than him, but not old enough to really have the skills or even the desire to include a younger kid. He often seems really dissatisfied with the playgroups and seems to have more fun with random kids at the park after school-- but also really wants friends that he sees more than once.  I have reached out to our local homeschooling group too for kids with similar interests, with not much luck, and am not sure how to reach beyond just the homeschoolers.  He isn't much into skype yet, either.

As I finish this up, I am thinking about the reality that I have been very controlling in the past, and am still flushing out areas where I have continued to be controlling or manipulative, and working on understanding how to make choices based on principles, instead of trying to control Josh's behavior out of fear.  So, that has likely made it harder for him too.  I have also been withdrawn at times, and emotionally unavailable, which has caused Josh (and everyone - Josh reacts the most loudly and openly) a lot of stress.  I feel like I have not often enough been a trustworthy partner, and I have a lot of ground to make up, and that will take time, and patience, and practice on my part.
 
In the meantime, I would really appreciate some suggestions for what I can say and do to respond to him in those moments where he is angry and cursing or being verbally hurtful of his brother, or excluding him-- I don't mean that as a short cut or way around continuing to improve his situation, but rather in addition to any other insights and suggestions anyone has that will help me do that.

Thank You, I appreciate this group so much more than I know how to say.

Lisa C


Sandra Dodd

-=-I didn't talk about this a lot with Sky's dad; he just followed my lead for the most part. But I think that even if we had disagreed, I could have used most of the same tactics, and just noticed-out-loud that Dad seems offended by cursing.-=-

Just noticing out loud might not be enough in some families. If parents disagree strongly, it's not worth risking a marriage over the defense of giving children more "freedom" in the name of unschooling.

If things worked out well in your family, it was probably because your husband trusted you. But advice to a mom to do what she wants regardless of the dad's opinion has caused problems in the families of some real kids.

Sandra

Tara & Sky

>>>  I'd rather have a 6 year old who curses well, than an 18 year old ashamed to curse in front of me. For me, the gift of truth has been unschooling's most powerful and beautiful gift. <<<

Grateful. I'm so grateful to have a kid who will drop an F-bomb in my presence. He'll tell me after a long day of fun that he didn't have any fun today. He'll tell me that I used to make really yummy squash soup, and now it's really yucky. I am *SO* grateful for those gems. One day, he'll be grown up enough to have tact - but I hope not. I hope he'll just develop a softer side to his truths. The home I grew up in was full of love, yet swirled with tiny lies, omissions, and failures to self-reflect which were all intended to protect people's feelings. I'd much rather carry my own emotional baggage, and know that he trusts me to handle it. 

~Tara

On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 8:12 PM, Tara & Sky <wildwestsky@...> wrote:
Sky (6 1/2) and I went through this recently, and one thing that helped me was to stay focused on learning. I looked at it less as an issue of power, and more as a new skill he needed my help exploring. Not that it *wasn't* an issue of power - of course it was. But it was happening in *real* situations where his power had been abruptly snatched away from him by some factor outside his or my control. I couldn't fix the situations (when I was newer to unschooling, I could, because I was often the cause!), but I could help him learn more about the particular tool he was showing interest in.  

I would remind myself that the words weren't (usually) offensive to me personally. Because I wasn't offended, I could be a safe space for him to try those things out - including providing definitions if he clearly didn't understand a word (for instance, when he used the word "d*ck" to refer to a person casually, I asked him if he knew he was calling that person a penis). 

So, I didn't react *to the words* when he used them at home. I did react to the frustration, by acknowledging that I noticed it, and by helping support him through it in lots of different ways. Mostly, I ignored the cursing at home - but when it fit easily into conversation, we talked about it. How certain words can be offensive to some people while not to others, and therefore are ok to use at some times and not at other times; which words are more offensive and which are less; the difference between things like "idiot" and "stupid" vs actual curse words. 

Outside our home, I reminded him when he said something inappropriate (ie, could hurt or offend others within earshot) for the setting. I helped him notice cues if someone (especially friends/family) seemed offended, or not. I reserved sternness for situations with friends/family that were likely to take offense, public spaces, and strangers. I made it clear that I was willing to leave, if his cursing offended others. I didn't tie our leaving to a rule: "if you curse, then we leave" - it was more a principle: "we respect others". So, if he cursed but I was the only one to catch it, I'd give a reminder. Typically, those reminders jolted him out of his frustration. Because he knew I was calling attention to his choice of tool, and because he knew he was free to curse in more appropriate circumstances, and because he wanted to stay wherever we were without offending others, he was mostly able to pull out of it when his temper flared. Once or twice, we did leave and did so without shame or punishment, just as a fact related to the principle. 

I didn't talk about this a lot with Sky's dad; he just followed my lead for the most part. But I think that even if we had disagreed, I could have used most of the same tactics, and just noticed-out-loud that Dad seems offended by cursing. There have been a few times where Sky said something that did offend me, and I told him so and he apologized or we talked about why I found it offensive. Mostly, it has come and gone, as have many other frenzies of learning. There has been more than one occasion where I smiled to myself, noticing that he used a word correctly in context that before he hadn't. And if I ever find myself feeling uncomfortable letting my 6 year old curse freely at home, I remember my own experience with this milestone. I started a new, Catholic school at age 10 where cursing was a fun activity among my new friends, one into which I jumped with gusto - and promptly kept that fact from my parents for well over a decade. I'd rather have a 6 year old who curses well, than an 18 year old ashamed to curse in front of me. For me, the gift of truth has been unschooling's most powerful and beautiful gift. 

~Tara 

On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 2:39 AM, lisajceledon@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

My five year old, Josh, has been cursing a lot.  I need help being more sensical about how to respond to it.  Lately I have been able to partner with him better to help ease some of his frustrations, which are often about being powerless in a situation, or not having control over what people do or how they react.       

For a time, my husband and I both were being really hard on him about it, correcting him every time he said a curse word, regardless of the context, or where we were.  Josh's cursing has been really irritating to my husband, and I felt anxious to curb it.  I also feel like if he's cursing at home, it will be harder for him to remember not to curse in places where it is really inappropriate, like at the playground.  I let him know when and where it is inappropriate, give him alternatives that are not so rude or shocking or disrespectful, and we have fun with it too, making up funny alternatives.  At home I am trying to feel out when it makes sense to curb the cursing, and when to get off his back about it.  I have found the more on it I am, the more often he curses- like a feedback loop.  I feel like I am not sure yet-or having a blind spot- about when I am trying to control him and when I am being his partner.

I have found that there is a lot I can do, through kindness and attention and generosity to lighten the general mood of our home and that stuff eases up too, but the last 6 months I was pretty depressed, and the home got pretty tense.  I know it was really hard on my husband, and my kids, though things have been improving over the last month, especially in the last couple weeks. 

I have given him a few places and situations where it is okay to curse, and am working on reducing the sources of frustration and powerlessness that really get him going. 
Some of his stress and frustration is with transitions and leaving the house- I have found some great suggestions on the physicality page for things we can do in our apartment. Sometimes he really needs to be louder and stronger and bigger than can be accommodated here, and some of those times he really doesnt want to leave the house.  I am often able to draw him out, but there are times when he is really frustrated with not being able to stay home and do what he wants. And then, even if he wanted to go out, has trouble remembering not to curse--or gets frustrated or angry about something and intentionally curses-- and then I feel guilty having him out at a playground, or kids' museum or any of the other places with people and kids around that are exciting enough to entice him out of the house.  He is very social and extroverted and wants to be around people.  I don't think it is okay for him to curse around people though, and feel stuck about how to partner better with him on this.

He seems to be going through a developmental shift right now too, and I know that might be part of it.

A big source of frustration is his little brother, Kaiden.  I know he felt and still feels displaced by him.  I baby Josh as much as I can, whenever I can, when that is what he wants (and he does want that a fair amount of the time), and now that his brother is 3, I'm a lot more able to do that than I was in the past.  Josh likes me to carry him cradled like a baby to and from the car and to different rooms in the house, and to play baby and mommy with him.  I make the most of that and snuggle him and rock him and gush about my sweet, adorable little baby, feed him bottles or a sippy cup and let him wear a diaper and he loves me to swaddle him up in a big blanket and that really helps.  I can do that as often as Josh asks for it, now that his brother doesn't want to be held and carried all the time, and often wants to walk to or from the car on his own, etc.

  But, Kaiden is also getting increasingly social in his play, and instead of sitting beside us and doing something else while Josh and I play, he wants to play along with us too. Josh adamantly does not want him to play (though a few months ago he often wanted Kai to play along when he couldn't, or when Kai did want to, Josh would enjoy it and welcome and encourage it) and is often mean and hurtful in expressing it, yelling at Kaiden, or pushing him away, or crying and saying things like, "I hate him, he's such a f*cker!"  Josh also has been getting really irritated lately that Kaiden (who is learning how to talk) is starting to imitate us more, and yells at him or starts crying when Kai does it.  He says things like, "he's so stupid. Why does he do that?"  Or, "He's talking too loud/too much!" when he is chattering quietly to himself in the car, or trying to talk with me (Most of his speech is incomprehensible, but has accurate intonational patterns, so it sounds like conversation and asking/responding to questions).  I feel like Josh is frustrated by not being able to understand what his brother is saying, and that it is overwhelming for him to try to figure out how to include him.  And then, he also doesn't want to include him,
Lately too, Josh will yell and run away and say things like "get the hell away from me!" when his brother moves vaguely in his direction, as if he is going to be attacked, even though Kaiden isn't even paying any attention to him, or moving toward him at all. 
Kai does occasionally grab him or hit him-- usually he grabs him and tries to head butt him, often because Josh has taken something from him, or yelled at him.  Josh has also hit his brother, and has teased him and pushed him.  I am now often there before either of them can hurt the other, but not always, and am working on being more present and engaged before the fact, or keeping them separated when I have to do something like cook or go to the bathroom. 

 I don't want him to treat his brother this way, I don't think it's okay, I am firm about it not being okay but other than saying, No, Stop that, it isn't okay, I don't know what else to do. In not so great moments I have told him to go to another room, or said I don't want to play with him anymore or removed Kaiden to another room, and that makes it worse.  I feel inside me how it makes it worse, and Josh also gets louder and more angry and frustrated.  I have seen, in some ways, Josh reacts to Kaiden in similar ways that I have reacted to him. 
In better moments I am playful and find ways to play with them both--but Josh is usually still distracted or upset that Kaiden is there with us, and isnt often soothed by it.  I also feel like, I've been feeling overwhelmed by this, and haven't been looking as closely at what works well, and remembering it. 

I have a mother's helper who comes once a week to play with Kaiden so that I can play with Josh, and also when my husband is home, one of us is able to give Josh the one on one attention he needs while the other plays with Kaiden.  I have also been working on finding an additional mother's helper with more availability, to come more often.

I have also noticed that Josh is struggling with his friends as well, being frustrated when they won't do what he wants-- sometimes he is more flexible and able to negotiate, or go with what other people are doing, other times he cries and yells and/or tackles his friends when they won't do what he wants. 
I have been able to help sometimes, by doing the thing Josh wanted to do, or helping them come up with a mutually agreeable alternative.  Sometimes none of that helps at all.

One of his friends who warmed up to him really quickly, and adored him, and came over a lot and played with him a lot, totally dropped him a few months ago when one of her other friends started coming back to our playgroup.  That was really hard on Josh, and I was able to invite her over often for awhile and they got along well away from the other friend, but then she started being distant with Josh even at our house and preferring to play with Kaiden instead.  That was REALLY hard on Josh, so we didn't have her over for awhile.  Lately we've had her back a few times, and I've been able to balance pretty well between getting Josh engaged in things with me when she plays with Kaiden, and then helping her and Josh find things to do together more too. 

I am having a hard time thinking of other ways he might make some friends, besides the local homeschooling playgroups where the kids he wants to play with are older than him, but not old enough to really have the skills or even the desire to include a younger kid. He often seems really dissatisfied with the playgroups and seems to have more fun with random kids at the park after school-- but also really wants friends that he sees more than once.  I have reached out to our local homeschooling group too for kids with similar interests, with not much luck, and am not sure how to reach beyond just the homeschoolers.  He isn't much into skype yet, either.

As I finish this up, I am thinking about the reality that I have been very controlling in the past, and am still flushing out areas where I have continued to be controlling or manipulative, and working on understanding how to make choices based on principles, instead of trying to control Josh's behavior out of fear.  So, that has likely made it harder for him too.  I have also been withdrawn at times, and emotionally unavailable, which has caused Josh (and everyone - Josh reacts the most loudly and openly) a lot of stress.  I feel like I have not often enough been a trustworthy partner, and I have a lot of ground to make up, and that will take time, and patience, and practice on my part.
 
In the meantime, I would really appreciate some suggestions for what I can say and do to respond to him in those moments where he is angry and cursing or being verbally hurtful of his brother, or excluding him-- I don't mean that as a short cut or way around continuing to improve his situation, but rather in addition to any other insights and suggestions anyone has that will help me do that.

Thank You, I appreciate this group so much more than I know how to say.

Lisa C



Tara & Sky

>>> advice to a mom to do what she wants regardless of the dad's opinion has caused problems in the families of some real kids <<<

Yes. Thank you, Sandra, for pointing out that my words weren't clear. 

What I meant was, the issue of Sky's occasional cursing was not offensive to my partner or me, and for that reason we didn't have an explicit conversation about how to handle it. He wasn't present the times that it happened in public (because he was at work), and I did share with him that it had happened and how I'd reacted. 

If Nate had been offended, I would have talked with him first about my ideas on how it could play out. And if, from that conversation, I discovered that he was personally offended or fearful of what others would think, we would have devised a way of handling it from a perspective of partnership in a manner with which we were both comfortable. 

As partners, a deeper conversation about whether the words offended us, or whether we were fearful of being embarassed/ashamed of our child's behavior, would have proved valuable. If it was fear of shame, that could be worth questioning and taking risks - IF we were in agreement on that point.

~Tara

On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

-=-I didn't talk about this a lot with Sky's dad; he just followed my lead for the most part. But I think that even if we had disagreed, I could have used most of the same tactics, and just noticed-out-loud that Dad seems offended by cursing.-=-

Just noticing out loud might not be enough in some families. If parents disagree strongly, it's not worth risking a marriage over the defense of giving children more "freedom" in the name of unschooling.

If things worked out well in your family, it was probably because your husband trusted you. But advice to a mom to do what she wants regardless of the dad's opinion has caused problems in the families of some real kids.

Sandra


Sandra Dodd

-=-As partners, a deeper conversation about whether the words offended us, or whether we were fearful of being embarassed/ashamed of our child's behavior, would have proved valuable. If it was fear of shame, that could be worth questioning and taking risks - IF we were in agreement on that point.-=-

I think embarrassment and shame are appropriate sometimes.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-Grateful. I'm so grateful to have a kid who will drop an F-bomb in my presence. He'll tell me after a long day of fun that he didn't have any fun today. He'll tell me that I used to make really yummy squash soup, and now it's really yucky. I am *SO* grateful for those gems. One day, he'll be grown up enough to have tact - but I hope not. I hope he'll just develop a softer side to his truths. The home I grew up in was full of love, yet swirled with tiny lies, omissions, and failures to self-reflect which were all intended to protect people's feelings. I'd much rather carry my own emotional baggage, and know that he trusts me to handle it. -=-

Going from one extreme to another is not balance.
http://sandradodd.com/balance

You seem to be curing yourself with his extreme behavior. I would not want a visiting child to "drop an F-bomb" and see his mother beaming with pride.

-=-One day, he'll be grown up enough to have tact - but I hope not.-=-

He could have tact now. It sounds as though (I could be wrong) that in reaction to your own upbringing (and other factors?) you're discouraging tact and discretion.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-I'd rather have a 6 year old who curses well, than an 18 year old ashamed to curse in front of me. For me, the gift of truth has been unschooling's most powerful and beautiful gift.-=-

The first half is a false dichotomy. There are a world of options, and those two aren't related, nor opposites.

The second half?
I don't see how a six-year-old cursing is evidence of truth.

Sandra

Tara & Sky

>>> I would not want a visiting child to "drop an F-bomb" and see his mother beaming with pride. <<< 
     "Beaming with pride" is an extrapolation. I'm curious where in my writing you heard pride (I'm being sincere, not insolent)? 

     What I did say, was that I'm grateful. I'm grateful for the partnership I have with my child, where he feels safe enough to explore corners that would otherwise remain dark and scary (or dark and inviting!) and create separation between us. You're right, I am proud of that relationship. But I didn't intend to paint a picture of beaming pride. I don't endorse cursing as a general activity for children. I do view it as potentially inevitable - and temporary - exploration, which can be done appropriately and inappropriately, and something they can grow through without being insulting or offensive. 



>>> I don't see how a six-year-old cursing is evidence of truth. <<<
     What I meant was, seeing his willingness to try scary things in my presence, and to express his likes AND dislikes, is evidence that he trusts me enough to be honest. I know lots of schooled children (myself included, but far from the only one) who would try this amongst their peers, but not in front of their parents. The reason he trusted me was largely because of the partnership we've built through my reading and trying and waiting, here on this list. I had faith and patience that this was an exploration, had learning value, and was not a "problem" to be "fixed." My intention was not to glorify cursing or rudeness, or unparenting. 



>>> -=-One day, he'll be grown up enough to have tact - but I hope not.-=-

He could have tact now. It sounds as though (I could be wrong) that in reaction to your own upbringing (and other factors?) you're discouraging tact and discretion.<<<
     I want for him to have compassion and clear thinking; NOT free license. Tact (to me) is a rule; it's about what's deemed socially acceptable and what's not. I hope that he will *know* what is generally deemed acceptable, question it, and make decisions about his actions based on kindness, respect, and common sense. I'm not discouraging tact, but I think that respect and compassion supersede it. When I said I hoped he won't have tact, I meant that I hope he won't learn to hide behind rules over principles. 

     When I said, I hope his truth develops a softer side, I meant: I expect that as he matures, he'll give more consideration to the effect his words and opinions have on others than he does now. And to borrow your word, Sandra, what I'm talking about there is discretion. I would encourage discretion, because what's offensive or not depends entirely on present company. He knows I won't take it personally if he doesn't like my squash soup, but I expect that he'll be more discreet when invited to eat a dinner his date's mom made. I want that discretion to be rooted in kindness, rather than a more superficial "tact". 



>>>Going from one extreme to another is not balance.
http://sandradodd.com/balance

You seem to be curing yourself with his extreme behavior. <<<

     I don't think so. I don't need to be cured of having grown up loved, respected, and expected to be aware of others' feelings - in a home where it was expected that I not curse. Nor do I see that as extreme. My son exploring some words in the safety of his own unschooling home is also not extreme. I'm sorry if my writing implied either of those. I shared the piece about my childhood not to demonstrate the opposite, but as one comparison to a pretty typical, loving-but-schooled life. 

     My son briefly explored this new activity, *mostly* (but unfortunately not entirely) within earshot of only his dad and me, and he gave it up rather quickly, perhaps because we didn't draw attention to it and didn't try to fix him. In those instances where he explored inappropriately, I either addressed the issue or removed him from the environment. It wasn't recreational exploration - it was moments of frustration where he tried something, tested the limits, and learned from his experience when it was ok or not ok to use that particular tool. 



From the link you suggested above: 
In the middle are things like "Believe things that make sense and seem to work after you've thought about them and tried them out," and "Don't believe something just because you read it, but wait for it to be confirmed by other more trusted sources, or by your own research or observance."

     Yes. That's what I did. I thought, I watched, I thought, I observed other unschoolers in my community, and I stayed close to my child. I wasn't permissive and I wasn't prohibitive, but I *was* his partner rather than his adversary. I'm not sure what could be more middle than that.

     I shared my story because we moved successfully and quickly through a similar (certainly not identical) situation to the one Lisa described in her original post, and because the possibility of seeing cursing as valuable learning - rather than a problem to be fixed - had not been presented in previous responses. My writing was more passionate than critical, because to me, it's a lovely story and I am admittedly prone to being a sap. I'll work on removing that voice from my writing here; it's extraneous. What can't be removed, though, is the beauty of unschooling. It's a more beautiful life, every day, even in the uglier moments, because it places us IN the moment more often than most people in our culture. That fact *is* helpful to new unschoolers. (Even though there are no guarantees. http://sandradodd.com/guarantee)

Warmly. 
~Tara

On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 9:03 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

-=-Grateful. I'm so grateful to have a kid who will drop an F-bomb in my presence. He'll tell me after a long day of fun that he didn't have any fun today. He'll tell me that I used to make really yummy squash soup, and now it's really yucky. I am *SO* grateful for those gems. One day, he'll be grown up enough to have tact - but I hope not. I hope he'll just develop a softer side to his truths. The home I grew up in was full of love, yet swirled with tiny lies, omissions, and failures to self-reflect which were all intended to protect people's feelings. I'd much rather carry my own emotional baggage, and know that he trusts me to handle it. -=-

Going from one extreme to another is not balance.
http://sandradodd.com/balance

You seem to be curing yourself with his extreme behavior. I would not want a visiting child to "drop an F-bomb" and see his mother beaming with pride.

-=-One day, he'll be grown up enough to have tact - but I hope not.-=-

He could have tact now. It sounds as though (I could be wrong) that in reaction to your own upbringing (and other factors?) you're discouraging tact and discretion.

Sandra


Tara & Sky

>>> -=-As partners, a deeper conversation about whether the words offended us, or whether we were fearful of being embarassed/ashamed of our child's behavior, would have proved valuable. If it was fear of shame, that could be worth questioning and taking risks - IF we were in agreement on that point.-=-

I think embarrassment and shame are appropriate sometimes. <<<

Yes, they can be a valuable compass when they come from inside the person, and are not externally imposed. I don't believe they'll help learning grow when they come from outside, though. Certainly not more than empathy would. 

In a conversation between parents where they are deciding what to do and why, it will be helpful to dig deep enough to know whether you yourself are offended, ashamed/embarassed (internal), or whether you are afraid your child's behavior will be seen as shameful and embarassing by others (external). All of these are equally valid, but they *could* lead to different paths in how to handle the situation at hand, and it is helpful to know the difference. 

Uncovering that "why" in the initial disagreement can help the parents find a common ground from which to start building. In case you read my comment as meaning one parent should use the "why" as they interpret it to bulldoze the other party.

~Tara



On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 9:00 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

-=-As partners, a deeper conversation about whether the words offended us, or whether we were fearful of being embarassed/ashamed of our child's behavior, would have proved valuable. If it was fear of shame, that could be worth questioning and taking risks - IF we were in agreement on that point.-=-

I think embarrassment and shame are appropriate sometimes.

Sandra


Sandra Dodd

--Tact (to me) is a rule; it's about what's deemed socially acceptable and what's not. I hope that he will *know* what is generally deemed acceptable, question it, and make decisions about his actions based on kindness, respect, and common sense. I'm not discouraging tact, but I think that respect and compassion supersede it. When I said I hoped he won't have tact, I meant that I hope he won't learn to hide behind rules over principles. -=-

There's the problem.

Tact is not a rule.
Tact is making a strategic, thoughtful decision after considering as many factors as the person has access to. Tactful. Tactics

-=-When I said I hoped he won't have tact, I meant that I hope he won't learn to hide behind rules over principles. -=-

Tact is not about rules. Tact is about not burning bridges, not losing friends, not screwing things up. Tact is about being a good member of a social team.
Tact is what helps a person maneuver a difficult situation and be praised and thanked later. Tact is what can get someone invited back over again.
You told us you hoped he would not grow up to have tact, so I think it was a misinterpretation of the meaning of "tact."

Tact if a WONDERFUL thing to have. It is one of the best things anyone could have, so to brag that he used bad language and to express a wish that he will grow up tactless (not an interpolation; a rephrasing of what you said) made me think a little worse than "unparenting."

Sandra