Strong Emotions (Deep Topic #2)
Sandra Dodd
Some people won't care about this. It's fine to skip it.
Partly this is about people "being supportive"—meaning saying to strangers at a distance "you're an awesome mom," with no idea, really what kind of mom she is or how her kids are doing.
Partly it's about the nature of rights and expectations and what "gets to be..." means (I suspect "has the right to," but it's worth looking at closely).
These are from a discussion elsewhere, that I saved aside. I've stripped the names from them; that's not important. And the original post wasn't saved. That's not important either.
I want to look at and think about the idea of telling people in general that any feelings they have are justified (and some smaller details, maybe, of the statements).
I'm really sorry he did that. I'd feel exactly the same way. You have every right to expect your desire to have a gun-free household respected. Period.
______________
It's okay to be angry. Totally okay to be angry. And have whatever feelings you're having.
______________
I've felt blood boiling pissed at my hubby (more than) several times in our marriage, many of those times I had a really good reason to be. None of those times did I ever consider divorce. There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling whatever you feel….
______________
I do support marriage, and want to help people to be in good, strong, happy marriages. I just happen to believe that women get to be heard, too.
______________
You deserve to be happy...
______________
You have the right to be heard...
Different people, same conversation. I suspect some of these sentiments are contagious, and people are adding to or parroting, in a kind of crowd contagion, or "mob mentality." I don't think they would have come up individually. I could be wrong.
Partly this is about people "being supportive"—meaning saying to strangers at a distance "you're an awesome mom," with no idea, really what kind of mom she is or how her kids are doing.
Partly it's about the nature of rights and expectations and what "gets to be..." means (I suspect "has the right to," but it's worth looking at closely).
These are from a discussion elsewhere, that I saved aside. I've stripped the names from them; that's not important. And the original post wasn't saved. That's not important either.
I want to look at and think about the idea of telling people in general that any feelings they have are justified (and some smaller details, maybe, of the statements).
I'm really sorry he did that. I'd feel exactly the same way. You have every right to expect your desire to have a gun-free household respected. Period.
______________
It's okay to be angry. Totally okay to be angry. And have whatever feelings you're having.
______________
I've felt blood boiling pissed at my hubby (more than) several times in our marriage, many of those times I had a really good reason to be. None of those times did I ever consider divorce. There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling whatever you feel….
______________
I do support marriage, and want to help people to be in good, strong, happy marriages. I just happen to believe that women get to be heard, too.
______________
You deserve to be happy...
______________
You have the right to be heard...
Different people, same conversation. I suspect some of these sentiments are contagious, and people are adding to or parroting, in a kind of crowd contagion, or "mob mentality." I don't think they would have come up individually. I could be wrong.
Sandra Dodd
No one responded. :-)
-=-It's okay to be angry. Totally okay to be angry. And have whatever feelings you're having.-=-
I disagree with this.
I suppose it to be a reaction to a family where people were asked to cover over emotions.
As a flat statement, though, I think it's terrible advice.
Sandra
-=-It's okay to be angry. Totally okay to be angry. And have whatever feelings you're having.-=-
I disagree with this.
I suppose it to be a reaction to a family where people were asked to cover over emotions.
As a flat statement, though, I think it's terrible advice.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-I've felt blood boiling pissed at my hubby (more than) several times in our marriage, many of those times I had a really good reason to be. None of those times did I ever consider divorce. There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling whatever you feel….-=-
-=-many of those times I had a really good reason to be-=-
And the other times?
Without a good reason to be "blood boilingly pissed," there WAS something wrong with feeling whatever she felt.
Sandra
-=-many of those times I had a really good reason to be-=-
And the other times?
Without a good reason to be "blood boilingly pissed," there WAS something wrong with feeling whatever she felt.
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 18, 2015, at 4:43 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... wrote:No one responded. :-)
I meant to! :-) But I guess philosophical questions don't have that time-sensitive pressure that personal questions do :-/
It did occur to me while I was in the shower that the statements felt like responses to childhood damage. Repression of feelings can lead to insisting your own feelings are important regardless of how much they hurt others.
Why would someone need to offer reassurance that it's okay to feel anger? Probably because they were told they were bad when they got angry.
It's ever so much better to never doubt that it's okay to feel what you feel but then to find better than knee-jerk ways to respond to the feelings.
*Believe* that women get to be heard, too? Who told her women shouldn't be heard that she needs to make that statement? Unfortunately it *is* a message many women -- and men -- hear that what they want isn't as important as another's feelings and needs.
Joyce
Sommer Urquhart
I think its important to take responsibility for your emotions. In our house your anger is your own to own. Meaning that each of us has the power to reframe how we perceive a situation and consequently how we feel about it.
No one responded. :-)
-=-It's okay to be angry. Totally okay to be angry. And have whatever feelings you're having.-=-
I disagree with this.
I suppose it to be a reaction to a family where people were asked to cover over emotions.
As a flat statement, though, I think it's terrible advice.
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
> On Jan 18, 2015, at 4:44 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... wrote:Good point.
>
> Without a good reason to be "blood boilingly pissed," there
> WAS something wrong with feeling whatever she felt.
If it's reaction to injustice, that's one thing. If it's reaction to others not doing what you want them to ...
That grows from powerless leading to a need to blame others. And a lack of skills to work out problems. When parents are kids' partners, parents can help kids explore realistic solutions, things in the child's (and parents') control, not other people.
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
These three are a set. They were "supportive" statements made as though they were factual.
You deserve to be happy...
______________
You have the right to be heard...
______________
I do support marriage, and want to help people to be in good, strong, happy marriages. I just happen to believe that women get to be heard, too.
The top one, I hear a lot. "You deserve happiness."
It doesn't make any sense. Does a murderer or child abuser deserve happiness? Does a saint or a martyr deserve happiness?
If we know things that can help a person find, produce and maintain her own happiness sometimes (increasingly up to most of the time), why waste time saying something untrue like "you deserve to be happy"?
Rights, like freedom, need to be given, granted, by someone with more rights, freedom or power than we have. DO I have "the right" to be heard? Anywhere, any time? Does my husband have the obligation to hear as much as I want to say, anytime I want to say it to him, even if it's totally critical and belittling of him? Does that mean he doesn't have the right to privacy or quiet?
The last one was written by someone who has criticized me in public several times.
-=-I do support marriage, and want to help people to be in good, strong, happy marriages. I just happen to believe that women get to be heard, too.-=-
The first part is peachy, but the argument that had all these platitudes and baseless assurances wasn't being supportive of marriage.
The last part is sectioned.
I just happen to believe that women get to be heard, too.
I just happen
to believe
that women
get to be heard
It's all little bits and parts. But what does "get to be heard" mean? Who will enforce "you get to"?
Without partnership, there are adversaries, opponents competitors, challengers.... all those one-wins-and-one-loses things.
Advising about ways to be partners is better, I think, and is not served by assuring one party that her rights are being violated by the other or that the's not getting what she deserves.
Sandra
You deserve to be happy...
______________
You have the right to be heard...
______________
I do support marriage, and want to help people to be in good, strong, happy marriages. I just happen to believe that women get to be heard, too.
The top one, I hear a lot. "You deserve happiness."
It doesn't make any sense. Does a murderer or child abuser deserve happiness? Does a saint or a martyr deserve happiness?
If we know things that can help a person find, produce and maintain her own happiness sometimes (increasingly up to most of the time), why waste time saying something untrue like "you deserve to be happy"?
Rights, like freedom, need to be given, granted, by someone with more rights, freedom or power than we have. DO I have "the right" to be heard? Anywhere, any time? Does my husband have the obligation to hear as much as I want to say, anytime I want to say it to him, even if it's totally critical and belittling of him? Does that mean he doesn't have the right to privacy or quiet?
The last one was written by someone who has criticized me in public several times.
-=-I do support marriage, and want to help people to be in good, strong, happy marriages. I just happen to believe that women get to be heard, too.-=-
The first part is peachy, but the argument that had all these platitudes and baseless assurances wasn't being supportive of marriage.
The last part is sectioned.
I just happen to believe that women get to be heard, too.
I just happen
to believe
that women
get to be heard
It's all little bits and parts. But what does "get to be heard" mean? Who will enforce "you get to"?
Without partnership, there are adversaries, opponents competitors, challengers.... all those one-wins-and-one-loses things.
Advising about ways to be partners is better, I think, and is not served by assuring one party that her rights are being violated by the other or that the's not getting what she deserves.
Sandra
tania
For me, my anger is always a feeling which comes from me - and in the
good moments it stays with me. This doesn't mean that I am not going to
be heard, it's the opposite! in my experience I am way more likely to
get help, empathy and support if I DO NOT let out my anger, DO NOT throw
my negativity in front of others but instead try to actually communicate.
tania from italy with two sons (6 and 2)
good moments it stays with me. This doesn't mean that I am not going to
be heard, it's the opposite! in my experience I am way more likely to
get help, empathy and support if I DO NOT let out my anger, DO NOT throw
my negativity in front of others but instead try to actually communicate.
tania from italy with two sons (6 and 2)
Sandra Dodd
-=-Unfortunately it *is* a message many women -- and men -- hear that what they want isn't as important as another's feelings and needs.-=-
The original question was elsewhere and it's cold now. I waited on purpose until it was old and cold.
It was about the dad owning a gun and the mom wanting him NOT to. It does make it a harder thing to sort out (as to feelings and needs) but the statements being made seemed to me to be polarizing and inflammatory rather than rational and logical.
For purposes of discussing unschooling, though, I think it's important to consider that a couple with beliefs so different that they're not being honest with each other, that they're disregarding the other person's desires, is not a good framework for an unschooling nest.
Thanks, Joyce, for helping. It's not an easy topic. I hoped that it would be easier to look at some of my souvenir parts of it without the heat of the immediate angry accusations and defenses.
Sandra
The original question was elsewhere and it's cold now. I waited on purpose until it was old and cold.
It was about the dad owning a gun and the mom wanting him NOT to. It does make it a harder thing to sort out (as to feelings and needs) but the statements being made seemed to me to be polarizing and inflammatory rather than rational and logical.
For purposes of discussing unschooling, though, I think it's important to consider that a couple with beliefs so different that they're not being honest with each other, that they're disregarding the other person's desires, is not a good framework for an unschooling nest.
Thanks, Joyce, for helping. It's not an easy topic. I hoped that it would be easier to look at some of my souvenir parts of it without the heat of the immediate angry accusations and defenses.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=- I am way more likely to
get help, empathy and support if I DO NOT let out my anger, DO NOT throw
my negativity in front of others but instead try to actually communicate.-=-
I agree.
When I'm angry, I try to get off to myself until the adrenaline dissipates. I don't always succeed.
Sandra
get help, empathy and support if I DO NOT let out my anger, DO NOT throw
my negativity in front of others but instead try to actually communicate.-=-
I agree.
When I'm angry, I try to get off to myself until the adrenaline dissipates. I don't always succeed.
Sandra
K Pennell
I know I didn't read the whole original post, but it does feel to me like there is a huge difference between a feeling and an action. I can feel angry, and sometimes it is very hard to stop that feeling. But I can take a break and come back to communicate in a loving way. I'm much more apt to be heard if I'm not being accusing and inflexible.
I haven't read the whole post on facebook, but in my experience sometimes people when people feel "not heard" they are also not willing to "hear".
From: "tania tania.loewe@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2015 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Strong Emotions (Deep Topic #2)
For me, my anger is always a feeling which comes from me - and in the
good moments it stays with me. This doesn't mean that I am not going to
be heard, it's the opposite! in my experience I am way more likely to
get help, empathy and support if I DO NOT let out my anger, DO NOT throw
my negativity in front of others but instead try to actually communicate.
tania from italy with two sons (6 and 2)
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chris ester
On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:29 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
______________
It's okay to be angry. Totally okay to be angry. And have whatever feelings you're having.
______________
I've felt blood boiling pissed at my hubby (more than) several times in our marriage, many of those times I had a really good reason to be. None of those times did I ever consider divorce. There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling whatever you feel….
______________
I do support marriage, and want to help people to be in good, strong, happy marriages. I just happen to believe that women get to be heard, too.
______________
You deserve to be happy...
______________
You have the right to be heard...My first thought is that this all sounds very soothing, mollifying, but not actually supportive or suggestive of taking helpful action to achieve peace or harmony in a household. Instead, all of these things sound like something of a rallying cry for a fight of some sort. It seems to be reinforcing the feeling of being slighted, put upon, "made" unhappy (so, wronged in some way?), deprived of a "right to be heard" or some other thing.For sake of argument, I will agree that a person (regardless of gender or other status like being a parent or child or spouse) is entitled to their feelings. If this is true for a particular person, isn't it true for ALL persons? But, how is it helpful to focus on this sort of entitlement? How does it build partnership or consensus? How does it create peace or the happiness that is supposed to be so "deserved". If "women get to be heard, too.", what about men, husbands, children, neighbors, relatives from outside of your home.... If one person is demanding to be "heard", are they listening? More importantly (in my opinion) is anybody connecting, understanding, respecting, loving, helping, partnering with their spouse to build a happy home and life?I don't like feelings being treated as though are a tangible thing. Yes, they exist, but they are not tangible and they are often not rational and seem to be held up as a justification for poor behavior. Behavior IS tangible and once you have behaved badly, the damage is done and hard to fix, creating more bad feelings, which can be used as justification for more bad behavior. Where does it end? How can it end?Chris
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I do not like to feel angry.
When I get Angry it is impossible to be mindful and thoughtful about pretty much anything.
I end up saying things that can hurt the ones I love and acting on that anger.
No I am not saying I go hitting and breaking people or things or even screaming. But I stay stuck and I cannot think with the same clarity or even as critically as I can if I am calm.
I rather work on calming down, taking deep breaths and getting as calm as I can. Doing that I can think about whatever is making me angry and make better decisions about how to respond or deal with it.
Anger makes me react. Reactions are not the same as stopping and thinking what would be the best choice.
Being calm , or even the calmest I can, helps me stop to think and I can then make thoughtful decisions and handle things much better.
It is not that one should not feel angry. It happens. What I rather do if I get to the point of anger is to stop and either remove myself like Sandra said , or to work on getting calm.
Being peaceful helps me be a better mom, partner, friend and person.
When I get Angry it is impossible to be mindful and thoughtful about pretty much anything.
I end up saying things that can hurt the ones I love and acting on that anger.
No I am not saying I go hitting and breaking people or things or even screaming. But I stay stuck and I cannot think with the same clarity or even as critically as I can if I am calm.
I rather work on calming down, taking deep breaths and getting as calm as I can. Doing that I can think about whatever is making me angry and make better decisions about how to respond or deal with it.
Anger makes me react. Reactions are not the same as stopping and thinking what would be the best choice.
Being calm , or even the calmest I can, helps me stop to think and I can then make thoughtful decisions and handle things much better.
It is not that one should not feel angry. It happens. What I rather do if I get to the point of anger is to stop and either remove myself like Sandra said , or to work on getting calm.
Being peaceful helps me be a better mom, partner, friend and person.
Being calm makes me be more thoughtful.
On Sunday, January 18, 2015 6:47 PM, "chris ester chris.homeschool@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:29 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
______________
It's okay to be angry. Totally okay to be angry. And have whatever feelings you're having.
______________
I've felt blood boiling pissed at my hubby (more than) several times in our marriage, many of those times I had a really good reason to be. None of those times did I ever consider divorce. There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling whatever you feel….
______________
I do support marriage, and want to help people to be in good, strong, happy marriages. I just happen to believe that women get to be heard, too.
______________
You deserve to be happy...
______________
You have the right to be heard...My first thought is that this all sounds very soothing, mollifying, but not actually supportive or suggestive of taking helpful action to achieve peace or harmony in a household. Instead, all of these things sound like something of a rallying cry for a fight of some sort. It seems to be reinforcing the feeling of being slighted, put upon, "made" unhappy (so, wronged in some way?), deprived of a "right to be heard" or some other thing.For sake of argument, I will agree that a person (regardless of gender or other status like being a parent or child or spouse) is entitled to their feelings. If this is true for a particular person, isn't it true for ALL persons? But, how is it helpful to focus on this sort of entitlement? How does it build partnership or consensus? How does it create peace or the happiness that is supposed to be so "deserved". If "women get to be heard, too.", what about men, husbands, children, neighbors, relatives from outside of your home.... If one person is demanding to be "heard", are they listening? More importantly (in my opinion) is anybody connecting, understanding, respecting, loving, helping, partnering with their spouse to build a happy home and life?I don't like feelings being treated as though are a tangible thing. Yes, they exist, but they are not tangible and they are often not rational and seem to be held up as a justification for poor behavior. Behavior IS tangible and once you have behaved badly, the damage is done and hard to fix, creating more bad feelings, which can be used as justification for more bad behavior. Where does it end? How can it end?Chris
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
And Anger now makes me feel anxious. It was not something I always felt when I was younger but as I got older it really does not feel good to be angry, frustrated or anxious.
On Sunday, January 18, 2015 10:28 PM, "BRIAN POLIKOWSKY polykowholsteins@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:
I do not like to feel angry.
When I get Angry it is impossible to be mindful and thoughtful about pretty much anything.
I end up saying things that can hurt the ones I love and acting on that anger.
No I am not saying I go hitting and breaking people or things or even screaming. But I stay stuck and I cannot think with the same clarity or even as critically as I can if I am calm.
I rather work on calming down, taking deep breaths and getting as calm as I can. Doing that I can think about whatever is making me angry and make better decisions about how to respond or deal with it.
Anger makes me react. Reactions are not the same as stopping and thinking what would be the best choice.
Being calm , or even the calmest I can, helps me stop to think and I can then make thoughtful decisions and handle things much better.
It is not that one should not feel angry. It happens. What I rather do if I get to the point of anger is to stop and either remove myself like Sandra said , or to work on getting calm.
Being peaceful helps me be a better mom, partner, friend and person.
When I get Angry it is impossible to be mindful and thoughtful about pretty much anything.
I end up saying things that can hurt the ones I love and acting on that anger.
No I am not saying I go hitting and breaking people or things or even screaming. But I stay stuck and I cannot think with the same clarity or even as critically as I can if I am calm.
I rather work on calming down, taking deep breaths and getting as calm as I can. Doing that I can think about whatever is making me angry and make better decisions about how to respond or deal with it.
Anger makes me react. Reactions are not the same as stopping and thinking what would be the best choice.
Being calm , or even the calmest I can, helps me stop to think and I can then make thoughtful decisions and handle things much better.
It is not that one should not feel angry. It happens. What I rather do if I get to the point of anger is to stop and either remove myself like Sandra said , or to work on getting calm.
Being peaceful helps me be a better mom, partner, friend and person.
Being calm makes me be more thoughtful.
On Sunday, January 18, 2015 6:47 PM, "chris ester chris.homeschool@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 1:29 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
______________
It's okay to be angry. Totally okay to be angry. And have whatever feelings you're having.
______________
I've felt blood boiling pissed at my hubby (more than) several times in our marriage, many of those times I had a really good reason to be. None of those times did I ever consider divorce. There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling whatever you feel….
______________
I do support marriage, and want to help people to be in good, strong, happy marriages. I just happen to believe that women get to be heard, too.
______________
You deserve to be happy...
______________
You have the right to be heard...My first thought is that this all sounds very soothing, mollifying, but not actually supportive or suggestive of taking helpful action to achieve peace or harmony in a household. Instead, all of these things sound like something of a rallying cry for a fight of some sort. It seems to be reinforcing the feeling of being slighted, put upon, "made" unhappy (so, wronged in some way?), deprived of a "right to be heard" or some other thing.For sake of argument, I will agree that a person (regardless of gender or other status like being a parent or child or spouse) is entitled to their feelings. If this is true for a particular person, isn't it true for ALL persons? But, how is it helpful to focus on this sort of entitlement? How does it build partnership or consensus? How does it create peace or the happiness that is supposed to be so "deserved". If "women get to be heard, too.", what about men, husbands, children, neighbors, relatives from outside of your home.... If one person is demanding to be "heard", are they listening? More importantly (in my opinion) is anybody connecting, understanding, respecting, loving, helping, partnering with their spouse to build a happy home and life?I don't like feelings being treated as though are a tangible thing. Yes, they exist, but they are not tangible and they are often not rational and seem to be held up as a justification for poor behavior. Behavior IS tangible and once you have behaved badly, the damage is done and hard to fix, creating more bad feelings, which can be used as justification for more bad behavior. Where does it end? How can it end?Chris
Greg and Kirsty Harriman
I think its true that
when emotions go up, intelligence goes down. I am a naturally emotional person
and am inclined to become too emotional to think clearly or react a way that’s
helpful. Being sleep deprived makes it ten times harder to control emotional
outpourings. I wish I wasn’t born such an emotional person as it doesn’t help
when it comes to parenting!
Deb Lewis
David said of me early on that I sparked easily. I learned not to fan the
spark, not to pile tinder on it. I learned not to burn him or Dylan. I
actually like that sudden spark of anger feeling. It lights up the world!
And if I had been some evil crime boss it might have been an asset, but as
somebody's wife and somebody's mom, it's not ok.
***There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling whatever you feel….***
Is that true of wife beaters? Murderers? Child molesters? Those freaky moms
who make their kids sick to get attention? Maybe it's only true of women who
have a right to be heard, who deserve to be happy, and who have every right
to the feeling that those things don't apply to a spouse. <g>
***There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling whatever you feel….***
People have feelings and will feel them. It's not a right, it's a condition
of being alive. Don't confuse having feelings with a "right" to control and
manipulate others, or with some right to special consideration because your
feelings are so highly sensitive.
***You have the right to be heard...***
Almost every time I've seen this used it has NOT meant your partner should
consider your feelings when deciding what to do, it has meant your partner
should do what you want. Someone can consider your feelings, understand how
deeply you feel about a thing, and still do the thing you don't wholly
approve of. And if the right to be heard, feel what you feel, deserve to be
happy stuff applies to you, it ought to apply to a partner.
The most direct way to consideration is to be considerate. A persons
enjoyment, heritage, and history might be a more reasonable argument for
owning a gun than a person's fear or political correctness is for banning
it. How many unschooling moms would wish their partner could get involved
with unschooling, really understand it, come to know it the way the mom
does, instead of deciding it ought not to be an option out of fear, or
conformity?
***I suspect some of these sentiments are contagious, and people are adding
to or parroting, in a kind of crowd contagion, or "mob mentality." I don't
think they would have come up individually. I could be wrong.***
I think you're right about the contagion. When people feel they're in some
safe moral majority, anti gun, anti video game, anti sugar, they talk in
platitudes.
Deb Lewis
spark, not to pile tinder on it. I learned not to burn him or Dylan. I
actually like that sudden spark of anger feeling. It lights up the world!
And if I had been some evil crime boss it might have been an asset, but as
somebody's wife and somebody's mom, it's not ok.
***There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling whatever you feel….***
Is that true of wife beaters? Murderers? Child molesters? Those freaky moms
who make their kids sick to get attention? Maybe it's only true of women who
have a right to be heard, who deserve to be happy, and who have every right
to the feeling that those things don't apply to a spouse. <g>
***There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling whatever you feel….***
People have feelings and will feel them. It's not a right, it's a condition
of being alive. Don't confuse having feelings with a "right" to control and
manipulate others, or with some right to special consideration because your
feelings are so highly sensitive.
***You have the right to be heard...***
Almost every time I've seen this used it has NOT meant your partner should
consider your feelings when deciding what to do, it has meant your partner
should do what you want. Someone can consider your feelings, understand how
deeply you feel about a thing, and still do the thing you don't wholly
approve of. And if the right to be heard, feel what you feel, deserve to be
happy stuff applies to you, it ought to apply to a partner.
The most direct way to consideration is to be considerate. A persons
enjoyment, heritage, and history might be a more reasonable argument for
owning a gun than a person's fear or political correctness is for banning
it. How many unschooling moms would wish their partner could get involved
with unschooling, really understand it, come to know it the way the mom
does, instead of deciding it ought not to be an option out of fear, or
conformity?
***I suspect some of these sentiments are contagious, and people are adding
to or parroting, in a kind of crowd contagion, or "mob mentality." I don't
think they would have come up individually. I could be wrong.***
I think you're right about the contagion. When people feel they're in some
safe moral majority, anti gun, anti video game, anti sugar, they talk in
platitudes.
Deb Lewis
Cheri Tilford
I think a lot of people conflate feelings and behavior, or even feelings and thoughts about those feelings, or the story supporting and fueling that feeling.
Biochemically speaking, a "feeling" (the actual chemical in your body) lasts approximately ONE MINUTE. Then the hormones and chemicals settle and balance. To stay angry or happy is a choice. I have certainly had the experience of being angry for longer than a minute, and sometimes I even want to stay angry. I've recognized in myself that that desire to stay angry is a clue that I need to take a minute to myself (run to the bathroom for some deep breaths), acknowledge my point of view is not the "right" one and my way of doing things is not the "right" way, they're simply my way, and it's a sense of controlling self-righteousness, which is inherently disrespectful to others, that fuels my anger in those moments. It's the story I tell myself that keeps the emotion alive and coursing through my body, and at any moment I have the choice and the power to let it go.
In my opinion, it is ok to feel whatever you feel. Feelings come and go without conscious control. Thoughts and actions are different. When I'm angry, it is Not ok to yell or hit or throw or slam. I used to yell at my husband, and felt justified behind the childish, unthinking, uncritical, and undefined argument that "all feelings are ok", confusing feelings themselves with their expression. One day, many years ago, I realized how awful I was being in those moments, and I vowed to stop, apologized to my husband for all the times I'd behaved like a selfish asshole, and asked for his help in noticing when my volume goes up so I can stop. He's my partner in becoming a healthier person, rather than the unwitting and unhappy receiver of the worst behavior I can display. Thankfully, I have never yelled at my daughter.
Feeling a strong emotion is not an excuse to engage in thoughtless behavior.
cheri
Biochemically speaking, a "feeling" (the actual chemical in your body) lasts approximately ONE MINUTE. Then the hormones and chemicals settle and balance. To stay angry or happy is a choice. I have certainly had the experience of being angry for longer than a minute, and sometimes I even want to stay angry. I've recognized in myself that that desire to stay angry is a clue that I need to take a minute to myself (run to the bathroom for some deep breaths), acknowledge my point of view is not the "right" one and my way of doing things is not the "right" way, they're simply my way, and it's a sense of controlling self-righteousness, which is inherently disrespectful to others, that fuels my anger in those moments. It's the story I tell myself that keeps the emotion alive and coursing through my body, and at any moment I have the choice and the power to let it go.
In my opinion, it is ok to feel whatever you feel. Feelings come and go without conscious control. Thoughts and actions are different. When I'm angry, it is Not ok to yell or hit or throw or slam. I used to yell at my husband, and felt justified behind the childish, unthinking, uncritical, and undefined argument that "all feelings are ok", confusing feelings themselves with their expression. One day, many years ago, I realized how awful I was being in those moments, and I vowed to stop, apologized to my husband for all the times I'd behaved like a selfish asshole, and asked for his help in noticing when my volume goes up so I can stop. He's my partner in becoming a healthier person, rather than the unwitting and unhappy receiver of the worst behavior I can display. Thankfully, I have never yelled at my daughter.
Feeling a strong emotion is not an excuse to engage in thoughtless behavior.
cheri
Sandra Dodd
-=-My first thought is that this all sounds very soothing, mollifying, but not actually supportive or suggestive of taking helpful action to achieve peace or harmony in a household. Instead, all of these things sound like something of a rallying cry for a fight of some sort. It seems to be reinforcing the feeling of being slighted, put upon, "made" unhappy (so, wronged in some way?), deprived of a "right to be heard" or some other thing. -=-
I think so too, Chris.
It seemed to be heaping resentment on top of anger. Feeding a fire, as Deb alluded to.
When someone is past angry and then egged further on, those "friends" are doing damage, not favors.
Sandra
I think so too, Chris.
It seemed to be heaping resentment on top of anger. Feeding a fire, as Deb alluded to.
When someone is past angry and then egged further on, those "friends" are doing damage, not favors.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-Behavior IS tangible and once you have behaved badly, the damage is done and hard to fix, creating more bad feelings, which can be used as justification for more bad behavior. -=-
Physical damage might be tangible (a rampage that ends up with broken windows or a wrecked car or something).
Most behavior is not tangible. It might be observable but not always provable. :-)
If I know someone well, I can tell by posture sometimes whether he's pissed off, or about to leave, or is confused. But though I could claim to know that and someone who knows me well might be inclined to believe me, the other person can deny it. If someone shoots me a dirty look and I say "She gave me a dirty look!!" she can (and likely would) look at the others with looks that indicated that I was crazy or that she was totally innocent. How tangible are those things? :-)
We have the right to express emotion with subtle bodily movements, and to some extent we don't have the power NOT to do that. To justify and defend even subtle meanness, though, is not great. It doesn't encourage people to be kind and helpful to each other.
Sandra
Physical damage might be tangible (a rampage that ends up with broken windows or a wrecked car or something).
Most behavior is not tangible. It might be observable but not always provable. :-)
If I know someone well, I can tell by posture sometimes whether he's pissed off, or about to leave, or is confused. But though I could claim to know that and someone who knows me well might be inclined to believe me, the other person can deny it. If someone shoots me a dirty look and I say "She gave me a dirty look!!" she can (and likely would) look at the others with looks that indicated that I was crazy or that she was totally innocent. How tangible are those things? :-)
We have the right to express emotion with subtle bodily movements, and to some extent we don't have the power NOT to do that. To justify and defend even subtle meanness, though, is not great. It doesn't encourage people to be kind and helpful to each other.
Sandra
Deb Lewis
***When someone is past angry and then egged further on, those "friends" are
doing damage, not favors.***
Right. Would those friends, at any point, egg on a husband who was blood
boiling pissed at his wife? I'm guessing if a wife reported that her
husband was just that angry, the friends would say it wasn't right, that he
was an adult and should behave like one. They'd say it was threatening and
aggressive and intimidating.
Deb Lewis
doing damage, not favors.***
Right. Would those friends, at any point, egg on a husband who was blood
boiling pissed at his wife? I'm guessing if a wife reported that her
husband was just that angry, the friends would say it wasn't right, that he
was an adult and should behave like one. They'd say it was threatening and
aggressive and intimidating.
Deb Lewis
Sandra Dodd
-=-Biochemically speaking, a "feeling" (the actual chemical in your body) lasts approximately ONE MINUTE. Then the hormones and chemicals settle and balance. To stay angry or happy is a choice.-=-
Some people take a long time to get angry and stay angry for a while.
Some get angry quickly and cool off easily.
I knew one person who could get angry and stay angry for hours—she could sleep and wake up still just as angry. It was (literally) freakish—most people do calm down.
Breathing helps.
http://sandradodd.com/breathing
-=-Feeling a strong emotion is not an excuse to engage in thoughtless behavior. -=-
It's one of the only legitimate excuses. "I was angry." "I was afraid." "I panicked."
"Thoughtless behavior" is much enabled by emotion. :-)
It's wonderful when a person has enough self-awareness to know that calm can be restored with time, or thought, or effort or something (different tools and tricks for different people) and if a parent can help a child figure these things out early, it will make their lives better. Their own relationship improves. Their future relationships and employment situations will be better.
ThoughtFULL behavior is better.
Sandra
Some people take a long time to get angry and stay angry for a while.
Some get angry quickly and cool off easily.
I knew one person who could get angry and stay angry for hours—she could sleep and wake up still just as angry. It was (literally) freakish—most people do calm down.
Breathing helps.
http://sandradodd.com/breathing
-=-Feeling a strong emotion is not an excuse to engage in thoughtless behavior. -=-
It's one of the only legitimate excuses. "I was angry." "I was afraid." "I panicked."
"Thoughtless behavior" is much enabled by emotion. :-)
It's wonderful when a person has enough self-awareness to know that calm can be restored with time, or thought, or effort or something (different tools and tricks for different people) and if a parent can help a child figure these things out early, it will make their lives better. Their own relationship improves. Their future relationships and employment situations will be better.
ThoughtFULL behavior is better.
Sandra
Annie Regan
I also tend to react to things emotionally. Since becoming more mindful of my parenting and my relationships I yell much, much less than I used to, but still more than I'd like. I am always careful what I say when I'm yelling, so it feels weird that I still have control over what I say, but not the volume at which I say it. The yelling can come out of nowhere, it feels, I will think that I'm handling a situation calmly, then suddenly I'm not. It's scary for me and for the other people involved. What I do find is that the more mindful I am, the more easily I can stop once I've started - I used to get angry and stay angry and stay yelling until I somehow worked through it, now I start yelling then think 'stop' and stop mid sentence sometimes, take a few breaths and then respond more calmly (or leave the room for a while and come back when I can be calmer). I like the idea of my partner helping me notice when my voice gets louder and then me being able to make a different choice from there.
One thing that really frustrates me is how little support there is for changing this pattern and working towards not yelling at all. (Which is why this list is so valuable because it really does help me work towards better choices). In most cases if I tell a friend about an emotional outburst I've had, they say 'oh we all do that, don't worry about it, it's part of parenting', or 'you're such a great mum, your kids are fine' or 'well it's the only way kids will listen isn't it' etc. And I don't want any of that, I really do want help figuring out how to stop reacting that way, help finding what my triggers are and help with intervening earlier so that the situation doesn't escalate to a point where I choose to yell. I can usually see in hindsight where I could have done things differently earlier in the situation, so I suppose practicing acting on that and making better choices each time will help.
I think the 'whatever you are feeling is ok' thing comes as a reaction to people saying 'there's no need to be upset', 'you shouldn't be angry about this' etc. (I was told that a lot by family and friends growing up and well into my 20s.) Being told that your feelings are wrong can cause shame and self-esteem problems if it happens a lot. So it seems people have then flipped that around too far and say 'I am upset and so you should do something about it' rather than feeling whatever they are feeling and working through that themselves, and still being mindful of how their reactions might impact on other people. I agree, a lot of women can use the 'what I am feeling is ok' thought to justify being unkind to partners and children, and not take responsibility for their own feelings. Those 'supportive' comments that I mentioned above when I try to talk about anger with many of my friends seem the same - they encourage mothers not to take responsibility for their actions, but instead blame children and partners and live righteously in anger and resentment - not conducive to unschooling and happy, nurturing relationships.
Annie